US govt secretly collecting data on millions of Verizon user

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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    :lol: At least, I'pretty sure that last line is a joke! :)

    Do you really find it necessary for someone to prove that China monitors phone calls? We know that they restrict and monitor internet activity on an extreme level, so phone monitoring or not, the point is that China not only monitors, but also censors, yet you jump.down another country's throat for it while having a history of defending China in comparison. However, your point about China not declaring itself a democracy is well taken.... On the other hand, so what? China is an international player, and does try to pretend it's more free than it actually is (although does a poor job of it).

    So I have 'a history of defending China in comparison', do I? Whilst you're at it, why don't you make up some more bullshit?

    Or shall we stick to the thread topic instead?

    Are you perfectly happy with your government spying on you in breach of the constitution?

    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Still kind of comes off as somewhat hypocritical

    So let me get this right: If someone lives in one country, then they are not permitted to comment on the politics of any other country? Seriously, I'd like you to elaborate on this.
    How about if someone takes a holiday in China? Are they a hypocrite if, during the time they're on holiday in China, they decide to comment on U.S politics? Or does the person need to spend a certain amount of time in China before they're deemed a hypocrite for criticizing U.S politics? If so, then what's the time threshold? 1 month? 6 months? 1 year? 5 years?
    I'd really like to know how this whole 'you're a hypocrite' thing works in your mind. Please enlighten me.
  • JimmyV wrote:
    I am a Verizon customer so my records have apparently been obtained.

    Still absorbing the news to be honest but I don't feel violated and I don't think this is as big a deal as it will be made out to be. For a few reasons.

    1) I have nothing to hide except one too many late night pizzas.

    2) I've never really considered my cell phone to be an entirely secure means of communication because

    3) I have always kinda assumed somebody somewhere was listening. Maybe that means I have seen one too many movies but this doesn't really come as a surprise.

    By thoughts exactly, but I am still kinda pissed this is what America is coming to. The Patriot Act was the start of all this bullshit.

    Speaking of which, I find it funny that many conservatives are pissed that Obama is so corrupt and does bullshit things and allows things like this, but the Patriot Act was okay because Bush did it. :lol:

    Watching from outside, from one of the shittiest countries ever in which our government do this, for one reason or other, it's surprising how Reps and Dems, conservatives and liberals were ok with this under Bush administration, but they are not ok under Obama's. I was glad to read some porn, Papa Johns and pizza jokes, and if there was any about Ikea, I miss it.
    polaris_x wrote:
    greatest country in the world! :mrgreen:

    I never get tired of this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBIMb5ZAY3g
    ... I am not in the business of being liked anymore ...

  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.
    That's what I'm wondering. I said a while back that the thing that is most surprising is that people are acting surprised. This is old news. So why the uproar now??
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JimmyVJimmyV Posts: 19,172
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.

    I wasn't upset then and I'm not upset now, but aside from that I do agree.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • PJ_Soul wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.
    That's what I'm wondering. I said a while back that the thing that is most surprising is that people are acting surprised. This is old news. So why the uproar now??

    probably due to the former CIA dude who is pissed at somebody for something so he came forward saying that Obama's administration is doing what TMI did... I saw that Gene Hackman and Will Smith movie about 20 years ago, and it's still awesome...
    ... I am not in the business of being liked anymore ...

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.
    That's what I'm wondering. I said a while back that the thing that is most surprising is that people are acting surprised. This is old news. So why the uproar now??

    probably due to the former CIA dude who is pissed at somebody for something so he came forward saying that Obama's administration is doing what TMI did... I saw that Gene Hackman and Will Smith movie about 20 years ago, and it's still awesome...
    :lol: That really IS a great movie!
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Godfather. wrote:
    voices in the air....nobody should be surprised by this,when data is transmitd via radieo freqincy it's to easy not to reach into the sky and collect or listen to it.

    old biker rule: "never talk business on the phone"

    Godfather.

    Sir, I know the people wanting to scare people or have fun don't like to clearly explain the actual facts of a situation, but they did not collect the content of these communications.. just the log as you would see it on a phone bill, where it came from, where it went, time and duration.
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO6ESVk3ouk

    The end is why people are upset.....
    I agree all parties are the same....
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    aerial wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO6ESVk3ouk

    The end is why people are upset.....
    I agree all parties are the same....
    ...
    Ummmmm. You are upset because this is President Barack Obama, right? Is that why you are upset?
    You weren't upset when former President Bush and Dick Cheney created the DHS and unleashed the NSA on American citizens. You didn't get upset when the John Roberts Supreme Court ruled in favor of the government warrantless wiretaps in 2006 and stated that we do not own phone record logs, the phone companies do, therefore it is not a violation of the fourth Amendment.
    Why was that? Why are you all of a sudden... upset with stuff that has been going on since 2002?
    it's because of the President, isn't it? Admit it, it's okay because there are a lot of people out there who are just like you... you are upset because he is not the President you voted for.
    I understand that. I do not agree, but, i understand where you are coming from.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    voices in the air....nobody should be surprised by this,when data is transmitd via radieo freqincy it's to easy not to reach into the sky and collect or listen to it.

    old biker rule: "never talk business on the phone"

    Godfather.

    Sir, I know the people wanting to scare people or have fun don't like to clearly explain the actual facts of a situation, but they did not collect the content of these communications.. just the log as you would see it on a phone bill, where it came from, where it went, time and duration.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... fbi-boston

    Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

    A former FBI counterterrorism agent claims on CNN that this is the case


    Glenn Greenwald
    guardian.co.uk, Saturday 4 May 2013


    Burnett interviewed Tim Clemente, a former FBI counterterrorism agent, about whether the FBI would be able to discover the contents of past telephone conversations between the two. He quite clearly insisted that they could:

    BURNETT: Tim, is there any way, obviously, there is a voice mail they can try to get the phone companies to give that up at this point. It's not a voice mail. It's just a conversation. There's no way they actually can find out what happened, right, unless she tells them?

    CLEMENTE: "No, there is a way. We certainly have ways in national security investigations to find out exactly what was said in that conversation. It's not necessarily something that the FBI is going to want to present in court, but it may help lead the investigation and/or lead to questioning of her. We certainly can find that out.

    BURNETT: "So they can actually get that? People are saying, look, that is incredible.

    CLEMENTE: "No, welcome to America. All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not."


    http://www.policymic.com/articles/47355 ... aked-prism

    Edward Snowden Interview Transcript

    ...Glenn Greenwald: "Why should people care about surveillance?"

    Edward Snowden: "Because even if you're not doing anything wrong you're being watched and recorded. And the storage capability of these systems increases every year consistently by orders of magnitude to where it's getting to the point where you don't have to have done anything wrong. You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody even by a wrong call. And then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with. And attack you on that basis to sort to derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer."
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    Cosmo wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO6ESVk3ouk

    The end is why people are upset.....
    I agree all parties are the same....
    ...
    Ummmmm. You are upset because this is President Barack Obama, right? Is that why you are upset?
    You weren't upset when former President Bush and Dick Cheney created the DHS and unleashed the NSA on American citizens. You didn't get upset when the John Roberts Supreme Court ruled in favor of the government warrantless wiretaps in 2006 and stated that we do not own phone record logs, the phone companies do, therefore it is not a violation of the fourth Amendment.
    Why was that? Why are you all of a sudden... upset with stuff that has been going on since 2002?
    it's because of the President, isn't it? Admit it, it's okay because there are a lot of people out there who are just like you... you are upset because he is not the President you voted for.
    I understand that. I do not agree, but, i understand where you are coming from.

    I am upset that he is a liar ..I don't like liars .....if this came out during Bush I would be upset also....and I did not agree with Roberts then and I do not agree with him on Obamacare either..
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    voices in the air....nobody should be surprised by this,when data is transmitd via radieo freqincy it's to easy not to reach into the sky and collect or listen to it.

    old biker rule: "never talk business on the phone"

    Godfather.

    Sir, I know the people wanting to scare people or have fun don't like to clearly explain the actual facts of a situation, but they did not collect the content of these communications.. just the log as you would see it on a phone bill, where it came from, where it went, time and duration.

    It's none of their business. If they want this information they should have to get a warrant.
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    everyone should get on the phone as often as possible and make pretend drug buys in a large scale manner.
    would be hysterical to fuck with folks collecting conversations & listening in. that is how you fuck with them, that and stop using the phone for weeks or months at a time.

    we the people have so much power it is ridiculous what we can muster up if only we worked together as a huge force

    currently things are flipped around & that is not the right way
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    voices in the air....nobody should be surprised by this,when data is transmitd via radieo freqincy it's to easy not to reach into the sky and collect or listen to it.

    old biker rule: "never talk business on the phone"

    Godfather.

    Sir, I know the people wanting to scare people or have fun don't like to clearly explain the actual facts of a situation, but they did not collect the content of these communications.. just the log as you would see it on a phone bill, where it came from, where it went, time and duration.

    you would think people trying to argue here would understand this point wouldn't you? too bad many choose to ignore facts. makes it hard to have an open discussion about real issues when they so clearly ignore what information the government actually obtained.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 48,908
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.


    this. a thousand times, this.
    www.myspace.com
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,095
    Cosmo wrote:
    Just to let everyone know... the article i previously posted was written in 2006. The Administration it was talking about is the Bush Administration.
    ...
    Point being, this has been going on since September 12, 2001. Why weren't you upset about it back then?
    ...
    Personally, i was... and i still am today. We need to QUIT CHOOSING POLITICAL PARTIES TO STAND BEHIND and understand that they are both, one in the same.


    this. a thousand times, this.

    Do you think the Patriot Act would be in place if Gore was prez?
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Go Beavers wrote:
    Do you think the Patriot Act would be in place if Gore was prez?
    I think so. Only one senator voted nay.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,095
    Jason P wrote:
    Go Beavers wrote:
    Do you think the Patriot Act would be in place if Gore was prez?
    I think so. Only one senator voted nay.

    Good ol Russ Feingold. Can we get him back in the mix?
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Go Beavers wrote:
    Good ol Russ Feingold. Can we get him back in the mix?
    In 2009, when the Act was again up for re-authorization, Feingold introduced the JUSTICE Act (S. 1686) "To place reasonable safeguards on the use of surveillance and other authorities under the USA PATRIOT Act."

    Perhaps it may be a good idea to review that proposed paperwork. :think:
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    aerial wrote:
    I am upset that he is a liar ..I don't like liars .....if this came out during Bush I would be upset also....and I did not agree with Roberts then and I do not agree with him on Obamacare either..
    ...
    Here.. this is exactly what I'm talking about:
    996172_533339760056931_1072473379_n.jpg
    ...
    Come on... i know you know who this person is... I know you watch FOX News.
    This is the shit I'm talking about. Only being up in arms because your politician isn't in office.
    The arguements would be completely different... there would not be a big deal about Benghazi and this NSA Data Mining thing would be getting defended as 'Keeping America Safe'.
    This is the shit i'm talking about.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo wrote:
    996172_533339760056931_1072473379_n.jpg

    aw... mitt's little brother... so cute...
    ... I am not in the business of being liked anymore ...

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Funny that this cocksucker claims that spying on American citizens could have prevented 9/11 considering the intelligence services and government were fully aware of Al Queada's plans to hijack civilian aircraft prior to 9/11, and were in possession of a memo dated August 6, 2001, entitled 'Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US' (Washington Post staff writers Walter Pincus and Dan Eggen wrote that "The classified briefing delivered to President Bush five weeks before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks featured information about ongoing al Qaeda activities within the United States, including signs of a terror support network, indications of hijacking preparations and plans for domestic attacks using explosives, according to sources who have seen the document and a review of official accounts and media reports over the past two years.") http://www.sourcewatch.org/images/3/37/Whitehouse.pdf - that detailed the terrorists plans in minute detail, yet they failed to do a single fucking thing with this information. And now he's using the fact that the 9/11 attacks went ahead as an excuse to create a mass surveillance state in breach of the constitution.

    America, the land of the free! :lol:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... -11-boston

    FBI chief Mueller says spy tactics could have stopped 9/11 attacks

    Robert Mueller dismisses congressional concerns and vows to take action against NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden

    Dan Roberts in Washington
    The Guardian, Thursday 13 June 2013




    The FBI has shrugged off growing congressional anxiety over its surveillance of US citizens, claiming such programs could have foiled the 9-11 terrorist attacks and would prevent "another Boston".

    The FBI director, Robert Mueller, also revealed that US authorities would be taking action against whistleblower Edward Snowden for revealing the extent of its activities, confirming that the FBI and department of justice were taking "all necessary steps to hold the person responsible".

    But Mueller's testimony before the House judicial oversight committee brought angry responses from many congressmen, who questioned whether such surveillance was lawful and demanded to know why it had failed to prevent the Boston bombing if it were so effective...
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Do you really find it necessary for someone to prove that China monitors phone calls? We know that they restrict and monitor internet activity on an extreme level, so phone monitoring or not, the point is that China not only monitors, but also censors, yet you jump.down another country's throat for it while having a history of defending China in comparison. However, your point about China not declaring itself a democracy is well taken.... On the other hand, so what? China is an international player, and does try to pretend it's more free than it actually is (although does a poor job of it). Still kind of comes off as somewhat hypocritical.

    You still haven't answered my question.

    Is Ai Wei Wei laso a hypocrite for criticizing the U.S? http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... like-china
  • riotgrlriotgrl Posts: 1,895
    Probably a dumb question but.....If all the NSA is doing is collecting numbers and times, as some here have claimed, without looking at the actual content of phone, data, emails, then when do they decide to actually look at the content of calls and emails? Is it based strictly on known phone numbers of 'terrorists' or other people of interest? Is it 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon before they decide whose information to monitor more closely? Who's to say which numbers warrant a closer inspection of detailed data?
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    riotgrl wrote:
    Probably a dumb question but.....If all the NSA is doing is collecting numbers and times, as some here have claimed, without looking at the actual content of phone, data, emails, then when do they decide to actually look at the content of calls and emails? Is it based strictly on known phone numbers of 'terrorists' or other people of interest? Is it 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon before they decide whose information to monitor more closely? Who's to say which numbers warrant a closer inspection of detailed data?
    I'm sure that have some pretty powerful algorithms that look for trends. I would not be surprised if they are running programs that "listen" to calls for certain keywords as well.
  • riotgrlriotgrl Posts: 1,895
    Jason P wrote:
    riotgrl wrote:
    Probably a dumb question but.....If all the NSA is doing is collecting numbers and times, as some here have claimed, without looking at the actual content of phone, data, emails, then when do they decide to actually look at the content of calls and emails? Is it based strictly on known phone numbers of 'terrorists' or other people of interest? Is it 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon before they decide whose information to monitor more closely? Who's to say which numbers warrant a closer inspection of detailed data?
    I'm sure that have some pretty powerful algorithms that look for trends. I would not be surprised if they are running programs that "listen" to calls for certain keywords as well.

    That's what I figured. Still a form of 'listening' and still borderline unconstitutional IMO. So if I randomly throw out words that are triggers they could conceivably put me on their list of people they need to scrutinize more closely. Wonder how many of us use those words and are being listened to?
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    Cosmo wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    I am upset that he is a liar ..I don't like liars .....if this came out during Bush I would be upset also....and I did not agree with Roberts then and I do not agree with him on Obamacare either..
    ...
    Here.. this is exactly what I'm talking about:
    996172_533339760056931_1072473379_n.jpg
    ...
    Come on... i know you know who this person is... I know you watch FOX News.
    This is the shit I'm talking about. Only being up in arms because your politician isn't in office.
    The arguements would be completely different... there would not be a big deal about Benghazi and this NSA Data Mining thing would be getting defended as 'Keeping America Safe'.
    This is the shit i'm talking about.
    sean hannity is one dude i'd love to slap a couple times. every single thing he stands for is shit i cannot stand. his smug ass smirky face & comments drive me up a wall
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    quite frequently when having a conservation on the phone, some of my people & i say into the phone, the cia or fbi are listening in. "is that you, cia/fbi?" "you guys are dicks"
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,624
    riotgrl wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    riotgrl wrote:
    Probably a dumb question but.....If all the NSA is doing is collecting numbers and times, as some here have claimed, without looking at the actual content of phone, data, emails, then when do they decide to actually look at the content of calls and emails? Is it based strictly on known phone numbers of 'terrorists' or other people of interest? Is it 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon before they decide whose information to monitor more closely? Who's to say which numbers warrant a closer inspection of detailed data?
    I'm sure that have some pretty powerful algorithms that look for trends. I would not be surprised if they are running programs that "listen" to calls for certain keywords as well.

    That's what I figured. Still a form of 'listening' and still borderline unconstitutional IMO. So if I randomly throw out words that are triggers they could conceivably put me on their list of people they need to scrutinize more closely. Wonder how many of us use those words and are being listened to?
    not borderline, actually unconstitutional.
    1. FISA court is for INTERNATIONAL not domestic .
    2. Clear violation of 4th amendment. I for one feel it is NOT reasonable to seize MY data in the off chance later that they may need it, WHEN in fact I am not suspected of anything much less something like terrorism.



    those that actually believe what the professional liars are saying now about data collection ONLY? , well I got some water front property in Fla for sale......
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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