Canadian Politics

polaris_x · April 2012

lukin2006 wrote:

I think if the GST was left alone we'd be fine or at least in much better shape. Really don't see much difference whether it's 5% or 7%, so why not just leave it at 7%...and your right they squandered away a huge surplus.

When he was reform party MP he was griping about MP pensions...now that he can do something about it he does nothing...but has no problem messing with others pensions...what a tool.

those fuckers are all two-faced ... senate reform and accountability being the two most egregious acts ... but as long as they spend their time talking shit about people ... their supporters are content ...

lukin2006 · April 2012

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I think if the GST was left alone we'd be fine or at least in much better shape. Really don't see much difference whether it's 5% or 7%, so why not just leave it at 7%...and your right they squandered away a huge surplus.

When he was reform party MP he was griping about MP pensions...now that he can do something about it he does nothing...but has no problem messing with others pensions...what a tool.

those fuckers are all two-faced ... senate reform and accountability being the two most egregious acts ... but as long as they spend their time talking shit about people ... their supporters are content ...

I don't understand their supporters or supporters of any political party...if your party is not doing whats right then why still support it, that just baffles me.

And as far as I'm concerned he did not campaign on raising the age of OAS...so issues like this either should be put to too a referendum or on hold to the next election...I really feel for folks that will be needing to rely on OAS and GIS just have try and have a dignified retirement.

I wrote my local MP Mr. Comartin, NDP expressing my concern and seeing if the NDP would lower it if in power. I wonder if this is the type of issue that could get them over the top...I hope...I really don't like the liberals...I was starting to like the NDP under Jack and I really like our local NDP MP.

Just for the record raising the retirement age to 67 does not effect when I retire but it does effect family members...many who are in labor intensive jobs...just ridiculous.

Drowned Out · April 2012

lukin2006 wrote:

I don't understand their supporters or supporters of any political party...if your party is not doing whats right then why still support it, that just baffles me.

Nooooooo shit. Picking a team and sticking with it totally defeats the purpose of democracy imho....our job is to be critical of all of them.

You guys familiar with Democracy Watch? http://www.dwatch.ca
I think their honesty in politics campaign is something worth getting behind....
The site has some great information regarding accountability in Canadian politics; it's critical of ALL parties.
The NDP are no better than the Cons when broken down in an accountability report-card.....of course, the Cons having a majority makes their poor score more damaging.

Party.............Overall Grade.......Dishonesty Downgrade
Green Party.............B-........................C-
Bloc Québécois..........C-........................D-
Cons......................F..........................I
Liberal Party.............F..........................I
NDP.......................F..........................I
* Dishonesty Downgrade applied because past performance of all parties shows that they usually break half their promises, and the lack of an honesty-in-politics law means they can't be held accountable.

Here's the Cons 2011 report card:
http://dwatch.ca/camp/RelsDec1211.html
(if you go to the article, each item has a clickable link to more information on how it was graded)

I. Honest, Ethical Government Measures E
1. Requiring honesty-in-politics F
2. Strengthening ethics standards . . . and ethics enforcement E
3. Making the political donations system democratic D-
4. Closing down the revolving door D-
II. Open Government Measures E-
5. Strengthening access-to-information system E-
6. Exposing behind-closed-door communications E-
7. Strengthening lobbying disclosure and ethics, and the enforcement system E-
III. Efficient Government Measures B
8. Strengthening spending rules, and powers of Auditor General/other enforcement bodies B
IV. Representative, Citizen-Driven Government Measures E
9. Increasing meaningful public consultation E-
10. Restricting power of Cabinet to make appointments E-
11. Making the Senate democratic or abolish it D
12. Ensuring free, fair and representative elections D
V. General Government Accountability Measures E
13. Facilitating citizen watchdog groups over government I
14. Ensuring effective whistleblower protection D
15. Ensuring loophole free laws and strong penalties for wrongdoers C

dignin · April 2012

Drowned Out wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I don't understand their supporters or supporters of any political party...if your party is not doing whats right then why still support it, that just baffles me.

Nooooooo shit. Picking a team and sticking with it totally defeats the purpose of democracy imho....our job is to be critical of all of them.

You guys familiar with Democracy Watch? http://www.dwatch.ca
I think their honesty in politics campaign is something worth getting behind....
The site has some great information regarding accountability in Canadian politics; it's critical of ALL parties.
The NDP are no better than the Cons when broken down in an accountability report-card.....of course, the Cons having a majority makes their poor score more damaging.

Party.............Overall Grade.......Dishonesty Downgrade
Green Party.............B-........................C-
Bloc Québécois..........C-........................D-
Cons......................F..........................I
Liberal Party.............F..........................I
NDP.......................F..........................I
* Dishonesty Downgrade applied because past performance of all parties shows that they usually break half their promises, and the lack of an honesty-in-politics law means they can't be held accountable.

Here's the Cons 2011 report card:
http://dwatch.ca/camp/RelsDec1211.html
(if you go to the article, each item has a clickable link to more information on how it was graded)

I. Honest, Ethical Government Measures E
1. Requiring honesty-in-politics F
2. Strengthening ethics standards . . . and ethics enforcement E
3. Making the political donations system democratic D-
4. Closing down the revolving door D-
II. Open Government Measures E-
5. Strengthening access-to-information system E-
6. Exposing behind-closed-door communications E-
7. Strengthening lobbying disclosure and ethics, and the enforcement system E-
III. Efficient Government Measures B
8. Strengthening spending rules, and powers of Auditor General/other enforcement bodies B
IV. Representative, Citizen-Driven Government Measures E
9. Increasing meaningful public consultation E-
10. Restricting power of Cabinet to make appointments E-
11. Making the Senate democratic or abolish it D
12. Ensuring free, fair and representative elections D
V. General Government Accountability Measures E
13. Facilitating citizen watchdog groups over government I
14. Ensuring effective whistleblower protection D
15. Ensuring loophole free laws and strong penalties for wrongdoers C

Curious how the federal NDP and Green party can even get a grade? Neither have ever formed government.

Drowned Out · April 2012

dignin wrote:

Curious how the federal NDP and Green party can even get a grade? Neither have ever formed government.

The multi-party report card (Report Card on Federal Parties' Good Government Platforms) is based on election platforms. The "Good Government Report Card" is specific to the party in power. They def could have titled the reports differently, and been more clear on the difference between the two.

lukin2006 · April 2012

Well I don't think there is such a thing as good government anymore...politicians today are the perfect example of selfishness...I sent off an email to my local MP who happens to be an NDP, voicing my unhappiness over the raising of OAS to 67 and asked 2 specific questions...

1. if your party can form the next government will you lower the age back to 65?

2. will your party raise the issue in the house of commons as to "why the government feels it's all right to make changes to others pensions but refuses to address the issue of your gold plated pensions"?

no response on either question...

2 pretty simple questions...and would not answer them.

Voting is a complete waste of time...all political parties are scams...only interested in serving themselves and their lobbyist.

It seems to me that maybe the last really good politician was Tommy Douglas...since then I'm not so sure we've had any worthy to mention...sad, very sad.

lukin2006 · April 2012

Peter MacKay has known about $25B price tag for F-35s since 2010

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/04/08 ... er-mackay/

Surprise, Surprise!!!

lukin2006 · April 2012

Ottawa killed Katimavik – and missed boat on youth jobs strategy

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... nt=2395726

but we'll spend 25 billion on jets and potentially 15 billion on a crime bill. The waste this governments going to commit will likely dwarf anything the previous liberals did.

polaris_x · April 2012

lukin2006 wrote:

Ottawa killed Katimavik – and missed boat on youth jobs strategy

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... nt=2395726

but we'll spend 25 billion on jets and potentially 15 billion on a crime bill. The waste this governments going to commit will likely dwarf anything the previous liberals did.

the thing is ... it's not "waste" ... it follows the same pattern as what Harris did ... he is paying off his supporters ... the people that got him elected ...

lukin2006 · April 2012

What's not waste? What Harper is doing? Every government waste money! That's the problem they waste taxpayers money, and when they do it there is no accountability.

Every political party pays off its supporters when elected. The difference this time is Harpers supporters are from business and the west.

McGuinty when elected has spent the last 8 years sweetening the pot of the teachers and other public sector unions.

I suspect if a green party formed government they would funnel grants and tax breaks toward environmental causes.

This is exactly why I don't vote...they all want to form government and tell us they want to represent all Canadians, but when elected they only really represent their supporters.

I know I'll never see a day when a party represents all voters...whether they voted for them or not.

The politics of this country is broken and has been for decades.

polaris_x · April 2012

lukin2006 wrote:

What's not waste? What Harper is doing? Every government waste money! That's the problem they waste taxpayers money, and when they do it there is no accountability.

Every political party pays off its supporters when elected. The difference this time is Harpers supporters are from business and the west.

McGuinty when elected has spent the last 8 years sweetening the pot of the teachers and other public sector unions.

I suspect if a green party formed government they would funnel grants and tax breaks toward environmental causes.

This is exactly why I don't vote...they all want to form government and tell us they want to represent all Canadians, but when elected they only really represent their supporters.

I know I'll never see a day when a party represents all voters...whether they voted for them or not.

The politics of this country is broken and has been for decades.

Waste denotes inefficient spending - which is subject to opinion. You may consider a particular expenditure waste while others do not.

At the end of the day - we need honest and transparent gov't.

I think its normal to consider all parties to be the same but I like to think that is not the case. Obviously, the Liberals and Conservatives are very similar and I really don't know about the NDP. They've never been given the chance. I do think that if the Green Party was in power and they did give out huge tax breaks to certain agencies - the motive would be to enact positive change on that front. As opposed to the liberals/conservatives who do it just to give these groups profit and money.

I think it's easy to be disenfranchised with the process but I don't think it's fair right now to lump all the parties as the same.

fife · April 2012

lukin2006 wrote:

What's not waste? What Harper is doing? Every government waste money! That's the problem they waste taxpayers money, and when they do it there is no accountability.

Every political party pays off its supporters when elected. The difference this time is Harpers supporters are from business and the west.

McGuinty when elected has spent the last 8 years sweetening the pot of the teachers and other public sector unions.

I suspect if a green party formed government they would funnel grants and tax breaks toward environmental causes.

This is exactly why I don't vote...they all want to form government and tell us they want to represent all Canadians, but when elected they only really represent their supporters.

I know I'll never see a day when a party represents all voters...whether they voted for them or not.

The politics of this country is broken and has been for decades.

While I understand what your saying, i think we also have to agree that it is impossible for a party to represent all voters and I don't know how that would look like if we tried.

lukin2006 · April 2012

fife wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

What's not waste? What Harper is doing? Every government waste money! That's the problem they waste taxpayers money, and when they do it there is no accountability.

Every political party pays off its supporters when elected. The difference this time is Harpers supporters are from business and the west.

McGuinty when elected has spent the last 8 years sweetening the pot of the teachers and other public sector unions.

I suspect if a green party formed government they would funnel grants and tax breaks toward environmental causes.

This is exactly why I don't vote...they all want to form government and tell us they want to represent all Canadians, but when elected they only really represent their supporters.

I know I'll never see a day when a party represents all voters...whether they voted for them or not.

The politics of this country is broken and has been for decades.

While I understand what your saying, i think we also have to agree that it is impossible for a party to represent all voters and I don't know how that would look like if we tried.

so you don't think anyone can be elected who offers a fair and balanced approach to government? you may be right. I however, would like to still think its possible. As of now under our political system, this is not possible. First thing I'd like to see is all lobbying banned. Next I would love to an independent agency set up that must approve all political advertising before it airs (getting rid of attack ads), this would also include government in power ads paid by the taxpayer...of course i've made it no secret that I believe all major items should be decided via a referendum. just as a start. Politics need to start evolving, the system needs to change, what we have in this country is far from a democracy...I don't consider the right to decide the lesser of 4-5-6 evils a real democracy.

lukin2006 · April 2012

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

What's not waste? What Harper is doing? Every government waste money! That's the problem they waste taxpayers money, and when they do it there is no accountability.

Every political party pays off its supporters when elected. The difference this time is Harpers supporters are from business and the west.

McGuinty when elected has spent the last 8 years sweetening the pot of the teachers and other public sector unions.

I suspect if a green party formed government they would funnel grants and tax breaks toward environmental causes.

This is exactly why I don't vote...they all want to form government and tell us they want to represent all Canadians, but when elected they only really represent their supporters.

I know I'll never see a day when a party represents all voters...whether they voted for them or not.

The politics of this country is broken and has been for decades.

Waste denotes inefficient spending - which is subject to opinion. You may consider a particular expenditure waste while others do not.

At the end of the day - we need honest and transparent gov't.

I think its normal to consider all parties to be the same but I like to think that is not the case. Obviously, the Liberals and Conservatives are very similar and I really don't know about the NDP. They've never been given the chance. I do think that if the Green Party was in power and they did give out huge tax breaks to certain agencies - the motive would be to enact positive change on that front. As opposed to the liberals/conservatives who do it just to give these groups profit and money.

I think it's easy to be disenfranchised with the process but I don't think it's fair right now to lump all the parties as the same.

This is true...but to tell me we can't afford OAS and GIS until people turn 67 is BS when they want to spend 25 billion on jets without an open bidding process, spend how many billions on a crime bill and more prisons...etc.

Your right about the NDP...but i asked my local NDP MP 2 questions..."if you form a government in the future will you return the age to 65"? and "why is it all alright to attack others pensions and not address MP's gold plated pension"? the response I got was more or less a standard "I'm disappointed in the budget letter". My 2 questions were not answered...this is exactly why i will continue to lump all parties together.

fife · April 2012

lukin2006 wrote:

fife wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

What's not waste? What Harper is doing? Every government waste money! That's the problem they waste taxpayers money, and when they do it there is no accountability.

Every political party pays off its supporters when elected. The difference this time is Harpers supporters are from business and the west.

McGuinty when elected has spent the last 8 years sweetening the pot of the teachers and other public sector unions.

I suspect if a green party formed government they would funnel grants and tax breaks toward environmental causes.

This is exactly why I don't vote...they all want to form government and tell us they want to represent all Canadians, but when elected they only really represent their supporters.

I know I'll never see a day when a party represents all voters...whether they voted for them or not.

The politics of this country is broken and has been for decades.

While I understand what your saying, i think we also have to agree that it is impossible for a party to represent all voters and I don't know how that would look like if we tried.

so you don't think anyone can be elected who offers a fair and balanced approach to government? you may be right. I however, would like to still think its possible. As of now under our political system, this is not possible. First thing I'd like to see is all lobbying banned. Next I would love to an independent agency set up that must approve all political advertising before it airs (getting rid of attack ads), this would also include government in power ads paid by the taxpayer...of course i've made it no secret that I believe all major items should be decided via a referendum. just as a start. Politics need to start evolving, the system needs to change, what we have in this country is far from a democracy...I don't consider the right to decide the lesser of 4-5-6 evils a real democracy.

I think voters have a different view of what is fair and balanced. I remember having a debate with a friend about the mayor of Toronto and he was telling me that he can't understand how anyone could have voted for him. I told him that the reason he won was because he was able to get the anger of people who have felt that they have not been listen to.

2nd, when you say ban lobbying, what do you mean? I work for a non profit charity who helsp people living with HIV and i can tell you that we do lobby and the reason is that we feel that the government doesn't know about the issues that we are dealing with. I would hate to see what would happen if we were not able to lobby.

I agree about the attack ads but then you might have an issue around who is going to judge what is an attack ad and what is not.

as for the referendum, i would love to see that but I think that Canadians have to become more involved in the political process and I don't think we are. the greatest threat to democracy is voter apathy.

lukin2006 · April 2012

fife wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

fife wrote:

While I understand what your saying, i think we also have to agree that it is impossible for a party to represent all voters and I don't know how that would look like if we tried.

so you don't think anyone can be elected who offers a fair and balanced approach to government? you may be right. I however, would like to still think its possible. As of now under our political system, this is not possible. First thing I'd like to see is all lobbying banned. Next I would love to an independent agency set up that must approve all political advertising before it airs (getting rid of attack ads), this would also include government in power ads paid by the taxpayer...of course i've made it no secret that I believe all major items should be decided via a referendum. just as a start. Politics need to start evolving, the system needs to change, what we have in this country is far from a democracy...I don't consider the right to decide the lesser of 4-5-6 evils a real democracy.

I think voters have a different view of what is fair and balanced. I remember having a debate with a friend about the mayor of Toronto and he was telling me that he can't understand how anyone could have voted for him. I told him that the reason he won was because he was able to get the anger of people who have felt that they have not been listen to.

2nd, when you say ban lobbying, what do you mean? I work for a non profit charity who helsp people living with HIV and i can tell you that we do lobby and the reason is that we feel that the government doesn't know about the issues that we are dealing with. I would hate to see what would happen if we were not able to lobby.

I agree about the attack ads but then you might have an issue around who is going to judge what is an attack ad and what is not.

as for the referendum, i would love to see that but I think that Canadians have to become more involved in the political process and I don't think we are. the greatest threat to democracy is voter apathy.

Canadians would be more involved if they had more say...

Ban all lobbying...absolutely...sorry lobbying is corrupting the government from making the right choice's.

and when you guys lobby do you fill the politicians pockets to get them to support your view?

thats the lobbying i'm talking about.

polaris_x · April 2012

lukin2006 wrote:

This is true...but to tell me we can't afford OAS and GIS until people turn 67 is BS when they want to spend 25 billion on jets without an open bidding process, spend how many billions on a crime bill and more prisons...etc.

Your right about the NDP...but i asked my local NDP MP 2 questions..."if you form a government in the future will you return the age to 65"? and "why is it all alright to attack others pensions and not address MP's gold plated pension"? the response I got was more or less a standard "I'm disappointed in the budget letter". My 2 questions were not answered...this is exactly why i will continue to lump all parties together.

oh ... i agree that the budgeting is fucked ...

also, that was a piss-poor response ... and i'm not trying to say it will be better for sure ... but i do feel that there is more integrity in certain parties over others ...

fife · April 2012

I think voters have a different view of what is fair and balanced. I remember having a debate with a friend about the mayor of Toronto and he was telling me that he can't understand how anyone could have voted for him. I told him that the reason he won was because he was able to get the anger of people who have felt that they have not been listen to.

2nd, when you say ban lobbying, what do you mean? I work for a non profit charity who helsp people living with HIV and i can tell you that we do lobby and the reason is that we feel that the government doesn't know about the issues that we are dealing with. I would hate to see what would happen if we were not able to lobby.

I agree about the attack ads but then you might have an issue around who is going to judge what is an attack ad and what is not.

as for the referendum, i would love to see that but I think that Canadians have to become more involved in the political process and I don't think we are. the greatest threat to democracy is voter apathy.[/quote]

Canadians would be more involved if they had more say...

Ban all lobbying...absolutely...sorry lobbying is corrupting the government from making the right choice's.

and when you guys lobby do you fill the politicians pockets to get them to support your view?

thats the lobbying i'm talking about.[/quote]

I think we will have to agree to disgaree about your first point. I just don't see Canadians being very political.

as for point 2 and 4. i think there is a difference between lobbying and bribing. bribing should be stopped and people arrested for it. lobbying doesn't always corrupt the government from making the right choices. sometimes it helps the government in making a better choice

polaris_x · April 2012

it's all about open, honest and transparent gov't ... i have no problem with lobbyists as long as our elected officials are making informed decisions in the interests of the people ...

lukin2006 · April 2012

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

This is true...but to tell me we can't afford OAS and GIS until people turn 67 is BS when they want to spend 25 billion on jets without an open bidding process, spend how many billions on a crime bill and more prisons...etc.

Your right about the NDP...but i asked my local NDP MP 2 questions..."if you form a government in the future will you return the age to 65"? and "why is it all alright to attack others pensions and not address MP's gold plated pension"? the response I got was more or less a standard "I'm disappointed in the budget letter". My 2 questions were not answered...this is exactly why i will continue to lump all parties together.

oh ... i agree that the budgeting is fucked ...

also, that was a piss-poor response ... and i'm not trying to say it will be better for sure ... but i do feel that there is more integrity in certain parties over others ...

well maybe the green party is the solution or maybe its time we have proportional representation...I dunno, I do know this, the current system is not working.

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