Religious Beliefs

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  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    EmBleve wrote:
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    No offense, but doesnt this just make it a back-up plan? If you truely believe in God, shouldnt you believe because you are confident in your God, not because it serves your needs?

    No, it's not a 'back-up plan'. It is the recitation of a quote--without my personal interpretation of that quote. And whatever my interpretation (or anybody's for that matter), yes, to a certain extent, my beliefs do serve my personal need at the moment---and they serve a need through confidence and faith. It goes hand in hand.

    Ok, I understand.
    It is just simply that I have heard that quote many times.. and usually it is posed as a question as to why I don't belive in a traditional christian God (i'm not saying you're doing this here though).

    I always hear this quote as "why dont you follow this, you've got nothing to lose?"

    But I understand that those who do believe in God in their hearts dont need this quote, but when thrown out or directed at atheists/agnostics, it takes a different connotation, and is actually a sad suggestion to one who doesnt believe. The old "you've got nothing to lose" (when suggested to the non-believers) is the last thing they want to hear, and is kinda degrading to them.
    I know this quote can be interpreted different ways though, and i'm not saying you did the latter, I was just curious what you and others thought of it on a bigger scale and how it can be interpreted by everyone.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    I'm just 'discussing' - you opened a door with a certain quote. You mention life is a gamble and, as the quote has to do about gambling on the existence of god, I'm just wondering if you also consider the afterlife a gamble and if your belief in god is based on this gamble. That's all. A discussion about beliefs in a Religious Beliefs thread.

    But it really doesn't matter if you answer or not and you can close this door. Let's do that if you feel more comfortable about it and not talk about the 'wager' anymore.[/quote]

    I was just thinking that this began by my posting of that quote, and I questioned it when I posted it, but it went in line with the initial post that I responded to; the post just reminded me of it. I am not quite sure what you mean when you're asking me if I consider the afterlife a 'gamble'. When I was referring to life being a gamble, or a wager, I didn't mean in terms of a wager with God. I meant that every personal decision or move that is made in life is a gamble, a risk. Similarly, to love and to trust, is a risk. My posting of the quote has apparently created some confusion--it was more of an observation that I verbalized in relation to the other post.
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    No offense, but doesnt this just make it a back-up plan? If you truely believe in God, shouldnt you believe because you are confident in your God, not because it serves your needs?

    No, it's not a 'back-up plan'. It is the recitation of a quote--without my personal interpretation of that quote. And whatever my interpretation (or anybody's for that matter), yes, to a certain extent, my beliefs do serve my personal need at the moment---and they serve a need through confidence and faith. It goes hand in hand.

    Ok, I understand.
    It is just simply that I have heard that quote many times.. and usually it is posed as a question as to why I don't belive in a traditional christian God (i'm not saying you're doing this here though).

    I always hear this quote as "why dont you follow this, you've got nothing to lose?"

    But I understand that those who do believe in God in their hearts dont need this quote, but when thrown out or directed at atheists/agnostics, it takes a different connotation, and is actually a sad suggestion to one who doesnt believe. The old "you've got nothing to lose" (when suggested to the non-believers) is the last thing they want to hear, and is kinda degrading to them.
    I know this quote can be interpreted different ways though, and i'm not saying you did the latter, I was just curious what you and others thought of it on a bigger scale and how it can be interpreted by everyone.

    Thanks, and I certainly was NOT directing this towards anyone who does not believe in a 'traditional christian God', nor towards atheists, nor anyone else...that's not how I roll. :) I do not judge people for what they believe, nor do I try to throw anything to anyone in those terms. Check out my other response to redrock and this may explain why I posted that quote. On a bigger scale, (to me), it is kind of simplistic if I interpret it directly, and doesn't 'answer' any 'life questions' that I may have--and I am not in a position to suggest how it can be interpreted by 'everyone'. :)
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    EmBleve wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    --and I am not in a position to suggest how it can be interpreted by 'everyone'. :)

    I interpreted it as it was meant by Pascal because I studied him, but I realise that this being an international board maybe not that many people will have heard of or read Pascal (as one did in French schools when studying philosophy). Thus my confusion.

    Each can read what they want in it. Pascal certainly didn't mean for his wager to answer any of life's questions, on the contrary.
  • Soulfire42
    Soulfire42 Posts: 404
    A book I recommend to anyone on either the pro-religion or anti-religion side of the argument is "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It does a pretty good job of laying out the arguments used by pro-religion people throughout history, why people find them compelling, and why they are not credible. It's also available in audio format and runs about 14 hours long.

    I've often been told by various religious people to read their book of choice to understand this or that. So I've often done just that and studied it. It is rare when I find a religious person who will take some time investigating a "book" of mine, such as a book by Dawkins. I've studied philosophy and anthropology for years. I find the beliefs of various people very interesting. I must also state that people gloss over real differences in religions way too easily.

    People are also very quick to say that people are free to believe what they want to believe or that people's religions are not a topic for critique or analysis. It is not beneficial to say that people have an inalienable right to believe what they want to believe because there are many outcomes possible from belief systems. Many of them are harmful and should be exposed as such. Some are beneficial, and should be exposed as such as well. Making discussion or challenge of religion taboo is a form of intellectual suicide.

    Sometimes it is eye-opening for people to simply look at a pie-chart of relious populations of the world to see that not one religion has a majority (over 50%). So no matter what way you slice it, if you go by various books there's going to be a lot of suffering in some form of hell one way or another.

    But really, I must again recommend "The God Delusion" to people so that whichever side of the argument you find yourself on, you'll have a fuller understanding of the subject at hand. It tackles some big topics in pretty understandable language for everyone who will give it a proper read/listen.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Pascal ....name sounds vaguely familiar
    must have been something there to remember from that long ago :mrgreen:

    I will enjoy googling later

    googling is really great...youtube too ;)
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    redrock wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    --and I am not in a position to suggest how it can be interpreted by 'everyone'. :)

    I interpreted it as it was meant by Pascal because I studied him, but I realise that this being an international board maybe not that many people will have heard of or read Pascal (as one did in French schools when studying philosophy). Thus my confusion.

    Each can read what they want in it. Pascal certainly didn't mean for his wager to answer any of life's questions, on the contrary.

    I was answering the other post, not yours when I mentioned life's questions, and I don't think that it was the purpose, either (as I said). And, no, I am no expert on French philosophy; I just took the language in high school and college, and I have a very dear friend from Nantes who is an atheist and is existentialist to the max. :lol:
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    The Waiting Trophy Man wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    that ending was very visual..I feel a little itchy :lol:

    I agree about dogs, have always felt a spiritual connection to them.They are the best thing in my life over all as I have had one since I was born...
    55 years now and I will have one until the day I leave
    The love bond we share with them unique and I know I wouldn't feel right without it.

    I'm looking for clues too :D

    Oh come off it, it was only a joke, lol. Just goes to show that religious beliefs are nutty. But I share your love of dogs. Well, most of them anyway.
    One thing I will tell you now I never ever know when someone is teasing if I can't see their eyes.

    I agree about some of the religious thoughts but feel, you know, to each their own.

    If it makes you feel good do it! ;)

    And I am looking for clues and I do have a spiritual connection to my beasts,

    fellow dog lover :D
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited March 2011
    EmBleve wrote:

    I was answering the other post, not yours when I mentioned life's questions, and I don't think that it was the purpose, either (as I said). And, no, I am no expert on French philosophy; I just took the language in high school and college, and I have a very dear friend from Nantes who is an atheist and is existentialist to the max. :lol:

    Confusion again....

    Philosophy (whichever 'movement'/theory) questions, contrary to religion which dictates. (For those who say religion is not the same as god, I know - though you have to admit they are 'linked'!).
    Post edited by redrock on
  • The Waiting Trophy Man
    The Waiting Trophy Man Niagara region, Ontario, Canada Posts: 12,158
    A friend of mine is catholic, like really catholic. I guess they're called practising catholics or devout catholics or whatever. They're super duper religious.Anyways, I try to tolerate it and not let it get in the way of our friendship but sometimes she says stuff that really make me question her sanity. For example, her and her husband are trying to have more kids. She's hoping, or I should say praying, to have twins. She said to me "we'll have to wait and see what god has planned for us." I felt like shaking her and screaming "God is not planning for you to have kids - you are!!" God's not going to plant a seed - they're going to go home and fuck until her husband puts one past the goalie! And praying to god is going to have just as much of an affect as praying to the Dude or Zeus. If it's gonna happen, it'll happen. You can't pray for it to happen any more than you can close your eyes, blow out the candles and wish for it to happen. It really bugs me. I believe "to each his own" to a certain extent. But this kind of talk is crazy to me. I really think that people like my friend have mental problems. Religious beliefs to me are a form of mental illness. It's fantasy. It's Santa Claus and the Easter bunny for grown ups who don't want to get real. And it's scary because they are reproducing and teaching their kids this shit! And I don't think it's harmless. I don't think it's necessarily okay to believe whatever you want because it makes people feel good or it gives them hope. It's false hope. And it keeps them on the outskirts of reality. I think people need to grow up, get real and face the facts (scientific facts). Put the bible away and buy a subscription to Discover magazine or something. (I'm not talking to anyone in here specifically, I just mean religious people in general). That is all. Please hold your applause.
    Another habit says it's in love with you
    Another habit says its long overdue
    Another habit like an unwanted friend
    I'm so happy with my righteous self
  • pjfan021
    pjfan021 Posts: 684
    don't believe in any organized religion, but i do believe in spirituality. When we die, not sure what happens but i don't think it's going to be like anything like most religions believe. I don't hate people who are religious but I want to say how much I hate the organizations that represent these religions. I don't understand how the vatican can be worth billions for instance...but i do believe in morality and karma; i guess that's my guiding force when it comes to religious beliefs.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    I never lose anything. Not for very long, anyway. Any time I lose something & I absolutely can't find it, I pray - and I find it immediately. I don't know if it's a result of divine intervention, the energy I put out into the universe, seriously focusing my subconscious to remember where I put it, or what. But it works for me. And that's all I need to know.
  • blondieblue227
    blondieblue227 Va, USA Posts: 4,509
    The Waiting Trophy Man - i so agree with you! shifting accountably from you to religion is the number one thing i can't stand about it.
    *~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*

  • ed243421
    ed243421 Posts: 7,741
    The Waiting Trophy Man wrote:
    A friend of mine is catholic, like really catholic. I guess they're called practising catholics or devout catholics or whatever. They're super duper religious.Anyways, I try to tolerate it and not let it get in the way of our friendship but sometimes she says stuff that really make me question her sanity. For example, her and her husband are trying to have more kids. She's hoping, or I should say praying, to have twins. She said to me "we'll have to wait and see what god has planned for us." I felt like shaking her and screaming "God is not planning for you to have kids - you are!!" God's not going to plant a seed - they're going to go home and fuck until her husband puts one past the goalie! And praying to god is going to have just as much of an affect as praying to the Dude or Zeus. If it's gonna happen, it'll happen. You can't pray for it to happen any more than you can close your eyes, blow out the candles and wish for it to happen. It really bugs me. I believe "to each his own" to a certain extent. But this kind of talk is crazy to me. I really think that people like my friend have mental problems. Religious beliefs to me are a form of mental illness. It's fantasy. It's Santa Claus and the Easter bunny for grown ups who don't want to get real. And it's scary because they are reproducing and teaching their kids this shit! And I don't think it's harmless. I don't think it's necessarily okay to believe whatever you want because it makes people feel good or it gives them hope. It's false hope. And it keeps them on the outskirts of reality. I think people need to grow up, get real and face the facts (scientific facts). Put the bible away and buy a subscription to Discover magazine or something. (I'm not talking to anyone in here specifically, I just mean religious people in general). That is all. Please hold your applause.

    very well said
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  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    The Waiting Trophy Man wrote:
    A friend of mine is catholic, like really catholic. I guess they're called practising catholics or devout catholics or whatever. They're super duper religious.Anyways, I try to tolerate it and not let it get in the way of our friendship but sometimes she says stuff that really make me question her sanity. For example, her and her husband are trying to have more kids. She's hoping, or I should say praying, to have twins. She said to me "we'll have to wait and see what god has planned for us." I felt like shaking her and screaming "God is not planning for you to have kids - you are!!" God's not going to plant a seed - they're going to go home and fuck until her husband puts one past the goalie! And praying to god is going to have just as much of an affect as praying to the Dude or Zeus. If it's gonna happen, it'll happen. You can't pray for it to happen any more than you can close your eyes, blow out the candles and wish for it to happen. It really bugs me. I believe "to each his own" to a certain extent. But this kind of talk is crazy to me. I really think that people like my friend have mental problems. Religious beliefs to me are a form of mental illness. It's fantasy. It's Santa Claus and the Easter bunny for grown ups who don't want to get real. And it's scary because they are reproducing and teaching their kids this shit! And I don't think it's harmless. I don't think it's necessarily okay to believe whatever you want because it makes people feel good or it gives them hope. It's false hope. And it keeps them on the outskirts of reality. I think people need to grow up, get real and face the facts (scientific facts). Put the bible away and buy a subscription to Discover magazine or something. (I'm not talking to anyone in here specifically, I just mean religious people in general). That is all. Please hold your applause.

    I see what you're saying, but pregnancy is NOT a given just because a couple may be bumping uglies 24/7 when the woman is ovulating. You say they already have kids, so she's probably fertile, but how old is she? Perhaps they don't "score" every time they try to conceive. See, what I'm saying here? Having a baby because you want one doesn't always just happen (all the time). Think of all the couples out there that can't have kids at all! And perhaps your friend should be praying not for twins but for a healthy baby. Imagine that, if she did have one baby and there was something wrong... that is a reason to pray. Because shit happens, and people usually pray for things just to go right. Because we really aren't in control of everything.
  • Lizard
    Lizard So Cal Posts: 12,091
    _ wrote:
    I never lose anything. Not for very long, anyway. Any time I lose something & I absolutely can't find it, I pray - and I find it immediately. I don't know if it's a result of divine intervention, the energy I put out into the universe, seriously focusing my subconscious to remember where I put it, or what. But it works for me. And that's all I need to know.
    I'll bet it's always in the last place you look, too.!! ;)
    So I'll just lie down and wait for the dream
    Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    ... what are the criteria for getting into heaven?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Idris
    Idris Posts: 2,317
    redrock wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    --and I am not in a position to suggest how it can be interpreted by 'everyone'. :)

    Each can read what they want in it. Pascal certainly didn't mean for his wager to answer any of life's questions, on the contrary.

    Would you say that you know the truth in his work then? As you clearly mention how it is meant to be taken, also regarding putting it into context,

    Authors intention,
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    MrAbraham wrote:
    Would you say that you know the truth in his work then? As you clearly mention how it is meant to be taken, also regarding putting it into context,

    Authors intention,


    :lol:


    what i find interesting about pascals wager is it assumes,imo, that i want to end up in heaven. i take him to mean that by living as if God existed ie a 'righteous' life then my 'reward' will be everlasting 'life' in heaven. but what if my living a righteous life is the reward in itself(which it is and should always be). what if i have no desire for an eternal life. will he take me anyway? and if at the pearly gates i am asked why i dont desire to be in heaven and my reply is because getting to heaven is not what my life has been about or that i do not believe in an afterlife, despite it facing em in all its glory, will God then let me go? or will the aferlife be thrust upon me against my wishes?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Idris
    Idris Posts: 2,317
    catefrances wrote:
    MrAbraham wrote:
    Would you say that you know the truth in his work then? As you clearly mention how it is meant to be taken, also regarding putting it into context,

    Authors intention,


    :lol:


    what i find interesting about pascals wager is it assumes,imo, that i want to end up in heaven. i take him to mean that by living as if God existed ie a 'righteous' life then my 'reward' will be everlasting 'life' in heaven. but what if my living a righteous life is the reward in itself(which it is and should always be). what if i have no desire for an eternal life. will he take me anyway? and if at the pearly gates i am asked why i dont desire to be in heaven and my reply is because getting to heaven is not what my life has been about or that i do not believe in an afterlife, despite it facing em in all its glory, will God then let me go? or will the aferlife be thrust upon me against my wishes?

    Well I think you answered your own question and indeed know the truth. :ugeek:

    love it!

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