***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

Utley and Howard can not be compared. Utley is one of the top 3-5 players in baseball. Howard is not.

I'm usually not on the stat geeks side, but I have to side with Fixer here. Utley is clearly the best all-around player on this team. He hits to all fields, has good power, runs the bases well, plays gold glove-caliber defense (don't start giving me shit about 2 bad throws in the playoffs, please) and sets a great example by always hustling. He also is the rightful 2009 World Series MVP (or Cliff Lee).

Howard has the capability of carrying the team for weeks at a time, but I think he also contributes heavily to some of their miserable offensive stretches. And Utley's defense is drastically superior, even at a harder position.

Phils just need to stay within 2 or 3 games, and when Chase comes back he's gonna be a beast and carry this team to NL East titile #4 (in a row).

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

I'm usually not on the stat geeks side, but I have to side with Fixer here. Utley is clearly the best all-around player on this team. He hits to all fields, has good power, runs the bases well, plays gold glove-caliber defense (don't start giving me shit about 2 bad throws in the playoffs, please) and sets a great example by always hustling. He also is the rightful 2009 World Series MVP (or Cliff Lee).

Howard has the capability of carrying the team for weeks at a time, but I think he also contributes heavily to some of their miserable offensive stretches. And Utley's defense is drastically superior, even at a harder position.

Phils just need to stay within 2 or 3 games, and when Chase comes back he's gonna be a beast and carry this team to NL East titile #4 (in a row).

I agree with the fixer as well utley is a better all around player. But howard is the most valuable batter in that lineup,I'd say rollins is 2. Without howard the 3 and 5 hole hitters numbers will drop at a high rate imo. Like jeags said look at raul since he moved to the 3 hole howards a big reason he's gettn more fast balls to hit.

pjhawks wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

I'm usually not on the stat geeks side, but I have to side with Fixer here. Utley is clearly the best all-around player on this team. He hits to all fields, has good power, runs the bases well, plays gold glove-caliber defense (don't start giving me shit about 2 bad throws in the playoffs, please) and sets a great example by always hustling. He also is the rightful 2009 World Series MVP (or Cliff Lee).

Howard has the capability of carrying the team for weeks at a time, but I think he also contributes heavily to some of their miserable offensive stretches. And Utley's defense is drastically superior, even at a harder position.

Phils just need to stay within 2 or 3 games, and when Chase comes back he's gonna be a beast and carry this team to NL East titile #4 (in a row).

I agree with the fixer as well utley is a better all around player. But howard is the most valuable batter in that lineup,I'd say rollins is 2. Without howard the 3 and 5 hole hitters numbers will drop at a high rate imo. Like jeags said look at raul since he moved to the 3 hole howards a big reason he's gettn more fast balls to hit.

wouldn't the most valuable be the best? i don't understand that logic. being completely dominating at one or two aspects has to count for something over being good at everything. no disrespct to Chase but for all the talk about Chase at some point he needs to be dominating during the regular season - and he hasn't been that in about 3 years (probably because of the injuries but still).

no.

utley's a better all around player than howard. come on dude. you know that. its no slight to howard.

but at the same time i think this lineup needs the big slugger in the middle of the lineup a little more than what chase brings you offensively. so howard's probably more valuable.

Really the only thing that keeps Utley from being the perfect player is that he just plays so damn hard; thus he is injury prone, like now.

I hope Howard is using his time off to watch the Tom Emanski instructional video on sliding.

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

Really the only thing that keeps Utley from being the perfect player is that he just plays so damn hard; thus he is injury prone, like now.

I hope Howard is using his time off to watch the Tom Emanski instructional video on sliding.

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well played john.

pjhawks wrote:

wrote:

"The Fixer
using career averages to evaluate a player is just plain stupid. one year (good or bad can really skew the numbers. look at the trendlines, they're much more telling.

you can take howard, I'll take utley every time. I can't argue this anymore. It's pointless

if you don't want to use career stats then please give me a year-by-year review and tell me when if ever Chase has had a better season than Ryan Howard? please explain to me how a player who has NEVER had a season better than another is heads-above the other player or as you like to say 'not even close' - please defend this for me - show me a full season since Howard has been in the majors where Utley has been better than Howard. you can't - but you base your whole argument on some ridiculous fantasy league stat like WAR so you must be right.

WAR is a fantasy league stat now. wow...just wow

pjhawks wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

I'm usually not on the stat geeks side, but I have to side with Fixer here. Utley is clearly the best all-around player on this team. He hits to all fields, has good power, runs the bases well, plays gold glove-caliber defense (don't start giving me shit about 2 bad throws in the playoffs, please) and sets a great example by always hustling. He also is the rightful 2009 World Series MVP (or Cliff Lee).

Howard has the capability of carrying the team for weeks at a time, but I think he also contributes heavily to some of their miserable offensive stretches. And Utley's defense is drastically superior, even at a harder position.

Phils just need to stay within 2 or 3 games, and when Chase comes back he's gonna be a beast and carry this team to NL East titile #4 (in a row).

I agree with the fixer as well utley is a better all around player. But howard is the most valuable batter in that lineup,I'd say rollins is 2. Without howard the 3 and 5 hole hitters numbers will drop at a high rate imo. Like jeags said look at raul since he moved to the 3 hole howards a big reason he's gettn more fast balls to hit.

wouldn't the most valuable be the best? i don't understand that logic. being completely dominating at one or two aspects has to count for something over being good at everything. no disrespct to Chase but for all the talk about Chase at some point he needs to be dominating during the regular season - and he hasn't been that in about 3 years (probably because of the injuries but still).

aren't you the same guy that said halladay hadn't been great this year?

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

releasemedc wrote:

People who love Pearl Jam AND the Phillies?? You are my people. I can't believe I am just now finding this thread.

welcome and feel free to let us know which camp you are in - the sabermaticians fantasy-baseball stat-like geeks or the free-thinking watch-the-games realist fans.

Here we go...

Is Ryan Howard having a good year because he leads the league in RBI's and is 2nd in hits?

Or does he suck because his VORP is worse than 9 other first basemen? (or something like that - someone will correct me soon).

Um, yeeeaaaahhh. Clearly, I am of the "I'm not on here nearly enough to keep up with all these posts" camp. Definitely not a stat geek, so I guess I'm a watch-the-games person. I live in DC and went to all 3 games this last weekend. Friday was pretty sad and I seriously wanted to murder Greg Dobbs and/or kidnap him and tattoo "FUNDAMENTALS" on his forehead, backwards, so he can read it in the mirror. Saturday was a great game to watch, until of course Lidge came in and ruined everything, as we knew he would do as soon as we saw him walk onto the field and saw where the Nats were in their linuep. It was especially disturbing because we had seats 3 rows behind home plate, so the walk-off celebration was a bit too up-close and personal. On Sunday, the Phillies decided to play baseball, and it was fantastic. Loved Oswalt coming in to bunt, and the aggressiveness they were showing throughout the game. Pretty happy with Gload and Ransom in the absence of our starters. It was awful watching Howard get dinged and then injured in the first inning. He was PISSED.

After seeing what happened over the weekend, and I admit that it may be too soon to tell, they should have beefed up their bullpen rather than going after another starter. But, we'll see how that all works out.

Why all the hostility toward Werth? Maybe I'm biased because I want to make sweet love to him down by the fire, but he's been productive and always plays hard. Would someone 'splain?