the death penalty

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  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Billy I looked on line and found this, I understand you claim to not believe in God and I don't think any different of you than I do a believer, you used my beliefs to make your point so I look this up.
    http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=219

    Godfather.
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    good morning
    sunday midmorning briefing
    great pacific northwest u.s.a. head quarters
    weather: 56f, cloudy, wind west @ 10mph, humidity 94%.

    today is a good day to stop evil and be at peace
    saying thank you to the sky
    the sun
    and to the moon
    is best

    (hammer taps desk... recess)

    :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :crazy: :think: :wtf: :lolno: :shock: :sick:
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    edited July 2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLNOLCJC3A

    i wonder why no other inmate(s) ever stabbed him in the neck?
    this dude is out of control.
    kentucky state penitentiary, nice place.
    that is out of control.

    this monster needs put away and taken down.
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    It's well-documented that most scholars, religious and non, believe Jesus was a real person, so that's not the issue.

    That's not quite true. No evidence exists to support Jesus' existence. None whatsoever.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    chadwick wrote:
    today is a good day to stop evil and be at peace

    The death penalty is evil.

    Discuss.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Godfather. wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I asked you this before and you didn't answer, so I'll ask again: What would Jesus do?

    quit with the dumb ass questions would ya...if I knew that I knew that I wouldn't have keep reading your.... opinion......as I have said MANY times I DON'T KNOW !..both sides of this debate have good points.

    Godfather.

    A man who calls himself a Christian should not think this is a dumb-ass question. As a matter of fact, isn't it supposed to be the question by which you live your life? How convenient to be able to just dismiss it with an "I don't know."
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    ed243421 wrote:
    or should he have been shown the pain he created
    should he have been
    hogtied
    tortured
    and forced to watch his own genitials
    being hacked off?

    Would you like to be the one to do this to someone?
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    Godfather. wrote:
    ez Billy
    Godfather.

    I am. Or at least my wife says so. :lol:
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    just a couple links.

    from: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

    Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

    from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

    The vast majority of historians and theologians have always believed in the reality of Jesus' life.
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    It's well-documented that most scholars, religious and non, believe Jesus was a real person, so that's not the issue.

    That's not quite true. No evidence exists to support Jesus' existence. None whatsoever.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    I also find it rather convenient with the questions he won't answer. Furthermore, I still find it appalling that anyone Christian would believe it's possible ("I don't know" is an admission of possibility) that Jesus might be ok with the death penalty.
    scb wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I asked you this before and you didn't answer, so I'll ask again: What would Jesus do?

    quit with the dumb ass questions would ya...if I knew that I knew that I wouldn't have keep reading your.... opinion......as I have said MANY times I DON'T KNOW !..both sides of this debate have good points.

    Godfather.

    A man who calls himself a Christian should not think this is a dumb-ass question. As a matter of fact, isn't it supposed to be the question by which you live your life? How convenient to be able to just dismiss it with an "I don't know."
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,611
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    I also find it rather convenient with the questions he won't answer. Furthermore, I still find it appalling that anyone Christian would believe it's possible ("I don't know" is an admission of possibility) that Jesus might be ok with the death penalty.
    scb wrote:
    A man who calls himself a Christian should not think this is a dumb-ass question. As a matter of fact, isn't it supposed to be the question by which you live your life? How convenient to be able to just dismiss it with an "I don't know."
    render unto cesar that which is cesars. Meaning follow the law. DP being the law (as of now) I would guess that he may not agree with it , but would respect the fact that it was law.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2010
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    just a couple links.

    from: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

    Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

    They were not historians.

    Josephus was an historian who lived during the supposed time of Jesus, and yet his comprehensive history of the region makes no mention of Jesus.

    http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr ... jesus.html
    'John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence1 lists the following contemporary historians/writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus was supposed to have lived:

    Apollonius Persius
    Appian Petronius
    Arrian Phaedrus
    Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
    Columella Phlegon
    Damis Pliny the Elder
    Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger
    Dion Pruseus Plutarch
    Epictetus Pompon Mela
    Favorinus Ptolemy
    Florus Lucius Quintilian
    Hermogones Quintius Curtius
    Josephus Seneca
    Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
    Juvenal Statius
    Lucanus Suetonius
    Lucian Tacitus
    Lysias Theon of Smyran
    Martial Valerius Flaccus
    Paterculus Valerius Maximus
    Pausanias

    According to Remsburg,

    “Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author [Josephus Seneca], and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.”'
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2010
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    just a couple links.

    from: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

    Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

    from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

    The vast majority of historians and theologians have always believed in the reality of Jesus' life.
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    It's well-documented that most scholars, religious and non, believe Jesus was a real person, so that's not the issue.

    That's not quite true. No evidence exists to support Jesus' existence. None whatsoever.


    http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

    ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS

    No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.

    Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge.

    Courts of law do not generally allow hearsay as testimony, and nor does honest modern scholarship. Hearsay provides no proof or good evidence, and therefore, we should dismiss it.

    If you do not understand this, imagine yourself confronted with a charge for a crime which you know you did not commit. You feel confident that no one can prove guilt because you know that there exists no evidence whatsoever for the charge against you. Now imagine that you stand present in a court of law that allows hearsay as evidence. When the prosecution presents its case, everyone who takes the stand against you claims that you committed the crime, not as a witness themselves, but solely because they claim other people said so. None of these other people, mind you, ever show up in court, nor can anyone find them.

    Hearsay does not work as evidence because we have no way of knowing whether the person lied, or simply based his or her information on wrongful belief or bias. We know from history about witchcraft trials and kangaroo courts that hearsay provides neither reliable nor fair statements of evidence. We know that mythology can arise out of no good information whatsoever. We live in a world where many people believe in demons, UFOs, ghosts, or monsters, and an innumerable number of fantasies believed as fact taken from nothing but belief and hearsay. It derives from these reasons why hearsay cannot serves as good evidence, and the same reasoning must go against the claims of a historical Jesus or any other historical person.

    Authors of ancient history today, of course, can only write from indirect observation in a time far removed from their aim. But a valid historian's own writing gets cited with sources that trace to the subject themselves, or to eyewitnesses and artifacts. For example, a historian today who writes about the life of George Washington, of course, can not serve as an eyewitness, but he can provide citations to documents which give personal or eyewitness accounts. None of the historians about Jesus give reliable sources to eyewitnesses, therefore all we have remains as hearsay.
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    from: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

    Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.


    Epistles of Paul: Paul's biblical letters (epistles) serve as the oldest surviving Christian texts, written probably around 60 C.E. Most scholars have little reason to doubt that Paul wrote some of them himself. However, there occurs not a single instance in all of Paul's writings that he ever meets or sees an earthly Jesus, nor does he give any reference to Jesus' life on earth. Therefore, all accounts about a Jesus could only have come from other believers or his imagination. Hearsay.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    I also find it rather convenient with the questions he won't answer. Furthermore, I still find it appalling that anyone Christian would believe it's possible ("I don't know" is an admission of possibility) that Jesus might be ok with the death penalty.
    scb wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    quit with the dumb ass questions would ya...if I knew that I knew that I wouldn't have keep reading your.... opinion......as I have said MANY times I DON'T KNOW !..both sides of this debate have good points.

    Godfather.

    A man who calls himself a Christian should not think this is a dumb-ass question. As a matter of fact, isn't it supposed to be the question by which you live your life? How convenient to be able to just dismiss it with an "I don't know."

    And ya know, the death penalty took on a whole different form back in the days of Jesus. No lethal injections or electric chairs. Those were the days of capital punishment via crucifixion and stoning and such, were they not? So for Jesus to support the death penalty, he would have had to support it in forms even most pro-DP people find barbaric today. Think Jesus would have supported that?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    just a couple links.

    from: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

    Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

    from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

    The vast majority of historians and theologians have always believed in the reality of Jesus' life.
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    It's well-documented that most scholars, religious and non, believe Jesus was a real person, so that's not the issue.

    Check this out: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/060980 ... ss_product
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    after reading this, I decided to do a little research, and some speculate this would be correct, that Jesus stated himself he was not there to oppose the law. At the same time, however, there is also speculation that this very topic (death penalty imposed because of adultery) is what brought about "he who is without sin may cast the first stone".

    Anyway, I honestly believed that he would be outright against it, but it doesn't appear so. That is, based on scripture, which I don't believe. But the point was I thought even the scripture would state so, and that religious pro-DPers were being hypocritical, which they were not. My bad.
    mickeyrat wrote:
    render unto cesar that which is cesars. Meaning follow the law. DP being the law (as of now) I would guess that he may not agree with it , but would respect the fact that it was law.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    mickeyrat wrote:
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    I also find it rather convenient with the questions he won't answer. Furthermore, I still find it appalling that anyone Christian would believe it's possible ("I don't know" is an admission of possibility) that Jesus might be ok with the death penalty.
    scb wrote:
    A man who calls himself a Christian should not think this is a dumb-ass question. As a matter of fact, isn't it supposed to be the question by which you live your life? How convenient to be able to just dismiss it with an "I don't know."
    render unto cesar that which is cesars. Meaning follow the law. DP being the law (as of now) I would guess that he may not agree with it , but would respect the fact that it was law.

    Good point. But the original question was What would Jesus do? Do you think he would sentence someone to death? Do you think he would be the executioner? I guess to me there's a difference between respecting the law and actively participating in it. Today, with our representative government, I don't think anyone can pretend to not be an active participant. (Though I think they try to distance themselves from the nastiness of things they support politically, which I think is a huge problem with our society - but I guess that's another thread.)
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2010
    mickeyrat wrote:
    render unto cesar that which is cesars. Meaning follow the law.

    That's not my interpretaion. Seems to me he's saying leave earthly pursuits to the earth while spiritual matters belong with the spritual/'God'/Jesus. It says nothing about the law.

    http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

    Gospel of Thomas

    (100) 'They showed Jesus a gold piece and said to him: Caesar’s men demand tribute from us. He said to them: What belongs to Caesar, give to Caesar; what belongs to God, give to God; and what is mine, give it to me.'
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    interesting. Looks like I got meself some readin' to do!
    Byrnzie wrote:

    Check this out: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/060980 ... ss_product
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Billy Pumpkin wrote:
    after reading this, I decided to do a little research, and some speculate this would be correct, that Jesus stated himself he was not there to oppose the law. At the same time, however, there is also speculation that this very topic (death penalty imposed because of adultery) is what brought about "he who is without sin may cast the first stone".

    Anyway, I honestly believed that he would be outright against it, but it doesn't appear so. That is, based on scripture, which I don't believe. But the point was I thought even the scripture would state so, and that religious pro-DPers were being hypocritical, which they were not. My bad.
    mickeyrat wrote:
    render unto cesar that which is cesars. Meaning follow the law. DP being the law (as of now) I would guess that he may not agree with it , but would respect the fact that it was law.

    I don't know; I still tend to think they are. I'd like to see this research that supposedly shows otherwise.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but "that which is Cesar's" was not enacted in the name of Jesus. The death penalty in the United States, however, is enacted in the name of each of the citizens of the United States. I think it's the moral and Christian responsibility of the people of the U.S. to stand up and say Not in my name.
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