Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

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Comments

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I wonder if the Israeli's will confiscate all of the video footage of the attack taken by those on board the ships, or if we'll get to see that footage soon?

    I read that people had to leave the boats without being able to get their stuff. Mobile phones, cameras, etc. were confiscated on the boat as soon as the IDF got control. The blackout then started.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Exactly, they poked them in the eye instead of just docking in Israe which, to me, makes the captain of the boat responsible for the deaths. The people on that ship provoked this. But most of the people on this forum believe that just because someone is called a peace activists or a humanitarian aid worker they can not do anything wrong. They simply should have listened to the orders that they were given.

    Sure, it was the fault of the aid workers that they were mown down and killed. Just as it was the fault of the 1000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza last year that they were slaughtered by the IDF.

    Israel apologists love trying to turn reality on it's head, probably because this is all they have. The truth is not in them.

    In all honesty, maybe I should stay out of this topic. I'm not all that educated on Israel. But from what i've gathered on this topic:

    A boat tried going through a BLOCKADE.
    Soldiers boarded the boat.
    And from the footage I have seen, before the soldiers feet even touch the floor the activists were already throwing stuff at him.
    And........people on this forum claim to know more about Israel then people that actually live there or have lived there.

    don't believe everything the Israeli propoganda machine spins.

    see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.293089

    left-wing_activist.tiff.converted.jpg

    let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.

    There's a number of things not credible about this:

    The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
    Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
    Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
    People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
    How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?

    Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?

    -Ali Abunimah
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2010
    As yet, on this message board and on the Guardians comment section, nobody's been able to answer my question: if the Israeli's wanted to conduct a peaceful search of the flotilla's cargo then why did it board the boats at night in darkness armed to the teeth with stun grenades, pistols, and machine guns, whilst most of the aid workers were asleep?
    Surely an inspection in broad daylight with the co-operation of those on board would have made more sense?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    don't believe everything the Israeli propoganda machine spins.

    see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.293089

    left-wing_activist.tiff.converted.jpg

    let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.

    There's a number of things not credible about this:

    The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
    Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
    Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
    People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
    How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?

    Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?

    -Ali Abunimah

    good grief ... it's STILL on the website! ... that's ridiculous! ... :o
  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    polaris_x wrote:
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    don't believe everything the Israeli propoganda machine spins.

    see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.293089

    left-wing_activist.tiff.converted.jpg

    let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.

    There's a number of things not credible about this:

    The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
    Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
    Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
    People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
    How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?

    Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?

    -Ali Abunimah

    good grief ... it's STILL on the website! ... that's ridiculous! ... :o

    Unbelievable. Even a child could decipher this bullshit!
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Yet again today the U.S has defended Israel at the U.N Security Council and blocked calls for an independent investigation into the killings on the aid flotilla:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... lotilla-us
    '...The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

    A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

    ...The Americans also blocked criticism of Israel for violating international law by assaulting a ship in international waters...'

    The U.S stands alone in the world in preventing a peaceful settlement to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Every year at the U.N the following resolution - based on 242 - is vetoed by the U.S in defiance of the whole of the international community.
    We have Israel and the U.S on one side and the whole world - barring a few South Pacific Islands - on the other side. This is why Israel will continue to run amok in the world, in breach of international law, and why further atrocities will be committed and go unpunished:

    Peaceful Settlement of The Question of Palestine
    November 26, 2008, the United Nations General Assembly, as it does every year, voted on a resolution to end the Israel Palestine conflict. The GA/ 10791 (documents A/63/L.35; A/63/L.36) called for a two state settlement on the 1967 borders, East Jerusalem for the Palestinian State (west for Israel), and a “just” resolution to the refugee problem

    The draft resolution on the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (document A/63/L.35) was adopted by a recorded vote of 164 in favour to 7 against, with 3 abstentions, as follows:

    In favour:Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

    Against: Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    You guys keep talking about this having happened in international waters, and making this out to be a significant point, one that makes Israel's actions tantamount to piracy. Maybe the following article excerpt will inject some actual knowledge into the discussion.

    There were several smart pieces yesterday about the flotilla fallout. One was written by Michael Sean Winters in the lefty National Catholic Reporter. It is called “Judging Israel.” And it judges the Jewish state fairly. But perhaps the most important take on the episode appeared in The Daily Beast. The piece (“Israel Was Right”) was written by Leslie H. Gelb, a senior ideas man in the American foreign policy establishment, a former New York Times columnist, and the longtime president (now president emeritus) of the Council on Foreign Relations. Writes Gelb:

    Israel had every right under international law to stop and board ships bound for the Gaza war zone late Sunday. Only knee-jerk left-wingers and the usual legion of poseurs around the world would dispute this. And it is pretty clear that this "humanitarian" flotilla headed for Gaza aimed to provoke a confrontation with Israel. Various representatives of the Free Gaza Movement, one of the main organizers of this deadly extravaganza, have let it slip throughout Monday that their intention was every bit as much "to break" Israel's blockade of Gaza as to deliver the relief goods.

    […]

    Regarding international law, blockades are quite legal. The United States and Britain were at war with Germany and Japan and blockaded them. I can't remember international lawyers saying those blockades were illegal—even though they took place on the high seas in international waters.

    On that note, here are the relevant passages from the Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality:

    5.1.2 (3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion.

    5.1.2 (4) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they (a) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy; (b) act as auxiliaries to the enemy’s armed forces; (c) are incorporated into or assist the enemy’s intelligence system; (d) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or (e) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

    5.2.1 As an exception to Principle 5.1.2. paragraph 1 and in accordance with Principle 1.3 (2nd sentence), belligerent warships have a right to visit and search vis-à-vis neutral commercial ships in order to ascertain the character and destination of their cargo. If a ship tries to evade this control or offers resistance, measures of coercion necessary to exercise this right are permissible. This includes the right to divert a ship where visit and search at the place where the ship is encountered are not practical.

    5.2.10 Blockade, i.e. the interdiction of all or certain maritime traffic coming from or going to a port or coast of a belligerent, is a legitimate method of naval warfare. In order to be valid, the blockade must be declared, notified to belligerent and neutral States, effective and applied impartially to ships of all States. A blockade may not bar access to neutral ports or coasts. Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist capture, they may be attacked.

    I would recommend that before you guys start ranting and raving about the illegality of something under international law that you actually bother to know the law first. You will even notice that the last sentence of the last paragraph (5.2.10) suggests that even had the soldiers not been attacked by the activists, since the ships had already been warned not to try to breach the blockade and were nevertheless attempting to do so that the Israelis were within their rights under international law to attack them. This loss of life was tragic, and I truly mean that, but if you have to blame someone Israel really doesn't seem to be a good target in this case.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    You guys keep talking about this having happened in international waters, and making this out to be a significant point, one that makes Israel's actions tantamount to piracy. Maybe the following article excerpt will inject some actual knowledge into the discussion.

    There were several smart pieces yesterday about the flotilla fallout. One was written by Michael Sean Winters in the lefty National Catholic Reporter. It is called “Judging Israel.” And it judges the Jewish state fairly. But perhaps the most important take on the episode appeared in The Daily Beast. The piece (“Israel Was Right”) was written by Leslie H. Gelb, a senior ideas man in the American foreign policy establishment, a former New York Times columnist, and the longtime president (now president emeritus) of the Council on Foreign Relations. Writes Gelb:

    Israel had every right under international law to stop and board ships bound for the Gaza war zone late Sunday. Only knee-jerk left-wingers and the usual legion of poseurs around the world would dispute this. And it is pretty clear that this "humanitarian" flotilla headed for Gaza aimed to provoke a confrontation with Israel. Various representatives of the Free Gaza Movement, one of the main organizers of this deadly extravaganza, have let it slip throughout Monday that their intention was every bit as much "to break" Israel's blockade of Gaza as to deliver the relief goods.

    […]

    Regarding international law, blockades are quite legal. The United States and Britain were at war with Germany and Japan and blockaded them. I can't remember international lawyers saying those blockades were illegal—even though they took place on the high seas in international waters.

    On that note, here are the relevant passages from the Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality:

    5.1.2 (3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion.

    5.1.2 (4) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they (a) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy; (b) act as auxiliaries to the enemy’s armed forces; (c) are incorporated into or assist the enemy’s intelligence system; (d) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or (e) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

    5.2.1 As an exception to Principle 5.1.2. paragraph 1 and in accordance with Principle 1.3 (2nd sentence), belligerent warships have a right to visit and search vis-à-vis neutral commercial ships in order to ascertain the character and destination of their cargo. If a ship tries to evade this control or offers resistance, measures of coercion necessary to exercise this right are permissible. This includes the right to divert a ship where visit and search at the place where the ship is encountered are not practical.

    5.2.10 Blockade, i.e. the interdiction of all or certain maritime traffic coming from or going to a port or coast of a belligerent, is a legitimate method of naval warfare. In order to be valid, the blockade must be declared, notified to belligerent and neutral States, effective and applied impartially to ships of all States. A blockade may not bar access to neutral ports or coasts. Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist capture, they may be attacked.

    I would recommend that before you guys start ranting and raving about the illegality of something under international law that you actually bother to know the law first. You will even notice that the last sentence of the last paragraph (5.2.10) suggests that even had the soldiers not been attacked by the activists, since the ships had already been warned not to try to breach the blockade and were nevertheless attempting to do so that the Israelis were within their rights under international law to attack them. This loss of life was tragic, and I truly mean that, but if you have to blame someone Israel really doesn't seem to be a good target in this case.

    If the blockade is legally constituted, then provided there are reasonable grounds for suspicion that the vessel is carrying weapons beyond those normally carried by a vessel (and yes, almost all merchant vessels of any size have some perfectly legal weapons in the captain's safe) / weapons of mass destruction AND a whole host of other conditions are fulfilled, then you MAY be able to legally board a vessel to search it without out first referring to the flag nation for permission to execute the search.

    It isn't a given right that you can search any vessel approaching any unilaterally declared blockade.

    The Gaza blockade is illegal under international law. Therefore your attempt to justify Israel's boarding of the aid ship in international waters is not applicable.

    Security Council Resolution 1860... "calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment."
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Yosi, the attack having been in international waters IS a significant point. Not just for us plebs, but you will find the UN, heads of states, etc. making the point.

    Also, the ships' contents had been inspected before departure. Nothing but aid was carried. I'm sure Israel knew... after all, don't they boast having the best intelligence network?

    Again, you are just trying to get 'one up' by being seemingly learned.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    One more thing: you need reasonable grounds for suspecting the ships carry contraband, which is defined quite narrowly as military equipment and some dual-use material such as fuel. It's noteworthy that the actual excuses being made by the Israeli Government - the flotilla is a "provocation", the activists are really supporters of Hamas/Al Qaeda etc - have no bearing on whether the flotilla was carrying contraband.

    Secondly, you're supposed to obtain permission from the neutral country for the inspection: in this case Turkey. No such permission was sought.

    Thirdly, there's no basic right to ignore these rules just because compliance would jeopardise the integrity of the blockade. The blockade is illegal, but for arguments sake even if it was legal, that would still not give Israel an automatic right to maintain it at all costs.

    Finally, Israel has declared a 20km "exclusion zone" for its blockade, not a 65km zone. That is not a territorial claim (which would be smaller) but a statement about the limits of the blockade. Having set an exclusion zone, it's surely wrong in principle to then invent a further exclusion zone to "protect" the original one.

    The bottom line is, if you cannot enforce a blockade by legal means, you are not entitled to ignore the inconvenient parts of the law to make life easier for yourself.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    redrock wrote:
    Yosi, the attack having been in international waters IS a significant point. Not just for us plebs, but you will find the UN, heads of states, etc. making the point.

    Also, the ships' contents had been inspected before departure. Nothing but aid was carried. I'm sure Israel knew... after all, don't they boast having the best intelligence network?

    Again, you are just trying to get 'one up' by being seemingly learned.

    Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, says the flotilla was carefully inspected before departure:

    I want to say to the world, to the heads of state and the governments, that these boats that left from Turkey and other countries were checked in a strict way under the framework of the rules of international navigation and were only loaded with humanitarian aid."

    There was no one on board "other than civilian volunteers" he said.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    15,000 tons of humanitarian aid are delivered each week. That resolution, at least as far as you have quoted from it, says nothing about the illegality of the blockade. Which is not even to mention the fact that unlike the Helsinki treaty that actually spells out the laws governing blockades, UN resolutions DO NOT CONSTITUTE INTERNATIONAL LAW, a point that you have always and forever ignored. International law is governed by treaties, accords, and conventions (redundant terms, I know), not by impromptu UN resolutions thrown together on the fly.

    Redrock, the fact that the UN, heads of state, etc. are making the point simply means that they are ignorant of the relevant legal facts. Blockades may be legally enforced in international waters. It is a violation of international law to enforce a blockade in the sovereign waters of a neutral state, but this is not what occurred. I have provided a direct quotation from the relevant legal document. Please direct me to the international treaty that says that blockades may not be enforced in international waters? As for the ships contents, they are not relevant to the discussion. The ships were attempting to break a blockade. What they were carrying is beside the point. I am not trying to get "one up" by being seemingly learned. You have all repeatedly made this discussion about the illegality of Israel's actions under international law, evidently without actually knowing what the relevant laws actually said. I provided direct quotations from the relevant international treaty that show that what you have been saying is incorrect. That is not me trying to be seemingly learned. That is me blowing your arguments away by an appeal to the relevant sources. If you continue to insist that Israel violated international law I would simply ask that you provide a direct quotation from the legally binding document that spells out the law they have broken in this instance.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    Byrnzie wrote:
    One more thing: you need reasonable grounds for suspecting the ships carry contraband, which is defined quite narrowly as military equipment and some dual-use material such as fuel. It's noteworthy that the actual excuses being made by the Israeli Government - the flotilla is a "provocation", the activists are really supporters of Hamas/Al Qaeda etc - have no bearing on whether the flotilla was carrying contraband.

    Secondly, you're supposed to obtain permission from the neutral country for the inspection: in this case Turkey. No such permission was sought.

    Thirdly, there's no basic right to ignore these rules just because compliance would jeopardise the integrity of the blockade. The blockade is illegal, but for arguments sake even if it was legal, that would still not give Israel an automatic right to maintain it at all costs.

    Finally, Israel has declared a 20km "exclusion zone" for its blockade, not a 65km zone. That is not a territorial claim (which would be smaller) but a statement about the limits of the blockade. Having set an exclusion zone, it's surely wrong in principle to then invent a further exclusion zone to "protect" the original one.

    The bottom line is, if you cannot enforce a blockade by legal means, you are not entitled to ignore the inconvenient parts of the law to make life easier for yourself.

    If ships could simply break a blockade because they claimed not to be carrying contraband material then a blockade would be pretty meaningless. Besides, the ships were carrying building materials that are explicitly targeted by the blockade.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    yosi wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    One more thing: you need reasonable grounds for suspecting the ships carry contraband, which is defined quite narrowly as military equipment and some dual-use material such as fuel. It's noteworthy that the actual excuses being made by the Israeli Government - the flotilla is a "provocation", the activists are really supporters of Hamas/Al Qaeda etc - have no bearing on whether the flotilla was carrying contraband.

    Secondly, you're supposed to obtain permission from the neutral country for the inspection: in this case Turkey. No such permission was sought.

    Thirdly, there's no basic right to ignore these rules just because compliance would jeopardise the integrity of the blockade. The blockade is illegal, but for arguments sake even if it was legal, that would still not give Israel an automatic right to maintain it at all costs.

    Finally, Israel has declared a 20km "exclusion zone" for its blockade, not a 65km zone. That is not a territorial claim (which would be smaller) but a statement about the limits of the blockade. Having set an exclusion zone, it's surely wrong in principle to then invent a further exclusion zone to "protect" the original one.

    The bottom line is, if you cannot enforce a blockade by legal means, you are not entitled to ignore the inconvenient parts of the law to make life easier for yourself.

    If ships could simply break a blockade because they claimed not to be carrying contraband material then a blockade would be pretty meaningless. Besides, the ships were carrying building materials that are explicitly targeted by the blockade.

    And you dont see anything wrong with that?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    15,000 tons of humanitarian aid are delivered each week.

    That's what you say. Now let's see what Amnesty have to say about it in a report issued yesterday:

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-upda ... 2010-06-01

    Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians

    © Amnesty International

    1 June 2010

    Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

    Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

    Closed borders
    Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, the five Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel or the West Bank have been kept closed.

    The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is controlled by the Egyptian authorities and kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.

    Basic goods
    The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.

    The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.

    Economic collapse
    Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.

    According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

    Lack of facilities
    There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritised.

    Aid blocked
    While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.

    Health
    Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

    Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

    The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

    World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

    The Gaza conflict
    From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.

    More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

    Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.

    Continued violence
    In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.

    Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

    Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.

    Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.

    Collective punishment
    The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.

    But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.
    Read More
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Byrnzie wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    15,000 tons of humanitarian aid are delivered each week.

    That's what you say. Now let's see what Amnesty have to say about it in a report issued yesterday:

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-upda ... 2010-06-01

    Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians

    © Amnesty International

    1 June 2010

    Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

    Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

    Closed borders
    Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, the five Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel or the West Bank have been kept closed.

    The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is controlled by the Egyptian authorities and kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.

    Basic goods
    The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.

    The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.

    Economic collapse
    Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.

    According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

    Lack of facilities
    There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritised.

    Aid blocked
    While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.

    Health
    Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

    Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

    The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

    World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

    The Gaza conflict
    From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.

    More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

    Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.

    Continued violence
    In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.

    Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

    Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.

    Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.

    Collective punishment
    The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.

    But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.
    Read More

    the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope.

    -Cindy Corrie.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    B, again, Amnesty does not make international law. I've provided direct quotations from the relevant treaty. If you can do the same in support of your point I would welcome your contribution. However all you seem to be able to do is to avoid the central issue of whether Israel actually violated international law. If they did then you should be able to provide a quotation from the relevant binding legal document showing the laws that have been violated. Until you do so I don't know that there is really anything else to discuss.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    UN resolutions DO NOT CONSTITUTE INTERNATIONAL LAW, a point that you have always and forever ignored. International law is governed by treaties, accords, and conventions (redundant terms, I know), not by impromptu UN resolutions thrown together on the fly.


    Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip, an occupied territory under the Fourth Geneva Convention, constitutes collective punishment in violation of the laws of war.

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008...blockade-gaza


    The Fourth Geneva convention:

    Art. 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    B, again, Amnesty does not make international law. I've provided direct quotations from the relevant treaty. If you can do the same in support of your point I would welcome your contribution. However all you seem to be able to do is to avoid the central issue of whether Israel actually violated international law. If they did then you should be able to provide a quotation from the relevant binding legal document showing the laws that have been violated. Until you do so I don't know that there is really anything else to discuss.

    ultimately, it comes down to the legality of the blockade of gaza ... it should be obvious to you that many of us do not consider the blockade legal ... the reason for this is simply because by law, the blockade must not punish the civilian population above and beyond the military benefits ... obviously, we see that to be the case ...

    based on the illegality of the blockade in gaza - everything done on the floatilla was illegal ... and even beyond the legality of the blockade itself - the disproportionate use of violence resulting in death by the IDF is a crime unto itself ...
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2010
    yosi wrote:
    If they did then you should be able to provide a quotation from the relevant binding legal document showing the laws that have been violated. Until you do so I don't know that there is really anything else to discuss.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-E ... illa-legal

    Was Israel's raid on Gaza Freedom Flotilla legal?

    “The real question is: “Is the blockade itself lawful?’” says Douglas Guilfoyle, a specialist in international and maritime law at King’s College London. "Everything else turns on that."

    Mr. Guilfoyle says that under the international Law of Armed Conflict a state that has legally established a blockade can enforce it by boarding vessels in international waters that it reasonably expects might breach the blockade.

    But a blockade itself is illegal, he says, "if it will cause excessive damage to the civilian population in relation to the military advantage gained... so therefore intercepting a vessel on the high seas to support or enforce the blockade would not be lawful.”

    Israel says the blockade is necessary to protect if from rocket fire, but it has also led to economic collapse in Gaza, where the employment rate is now over 40 percent and the quality of medical care is deteriorating. Gazans say they can't see how prohibiting the import of fishing lines or canned goods – two of the items on Israel's banned list – enhances Israel's security, and conclude instead that a policy of collective punishment is being pursued against Gaza's people for having elected the Islamist Hamas movement to govern them.

    Another issue is that the Marvi Marmara, on which at least nine people (including four Turks) died after Israeli troops stormed the vessel, was flying under a Turkish flag.

    “Since the ship was flying a Turkish flag it was only subject to Turkish jurisdiction,” says Daniel Machover, a co-founder of the London-based lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights (LPHR). He says that while the Geneva High Seas Convention permits warships to interfere with ships flying the flag of another state in limited circumstances, such as if the vessel is engaged in the slave trade or piracy, no such factors apply in this case.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on

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