GITMO??????

Wait...

...is that place still open? I thought Obama was going to close it.

If it's still open, how come we aren't hearing about it every second anymore?

does the US even realise what a good move closing guantanamo bay would be? president obama closes down this base, giving the land back to the cubans and rightly so. fuckin' hell thats a whole lot of brownie points right there. id even go so far as to say it might even start to make up a little for the bay of pigs fiasco.... i said might.

I can't believe there are people here that think it's OK to arrest people, fly them thousands of miles and dump them in a camp for years without a trial. I thought the US was a democratic country and respected human rights.

Thanks for putting me right. Obviously the people responsible for perpetrating this obsenity are as dumb as some of the posters here.

And I'm still trying to work out how you arrest someone responsible for suicide bombing. I imagine it was in numerous bags.

nuffingman wrote:

And I'm still trying to work out how you arrest someone responsible for suicide bombing. I imagine it was in numerous bags.

I find a bit odd that the biggest critics of US policies are folks from Polland, England and some from Canada.
I realize WWII was several decades ago, but my Grandfather didn't take bullet in vain so you folks weren't forced to become Nazis and speak German. Whenever the world gets in a skirmish, many turn to the US for help. We ARE the World's police, so be it.
I'm not going to apologize for the fact that we, as proud Americans, tend to take exception to people attacking innocent people; let alone Our Own innocent.
The Known Terrorist that are confined at Gitmo are the same people Recruiting the suicide bombers, Training young people how to fire an AK-47 at the innocent. Many of the detainees were on CIA and FBI "whatch lists" that were basically "observed" during the weak Clinton administration.
If you want to sit back and take unfounded ignorant cheap shots at the US from the confort of your peaceful home-town, then that is your choice. Or, you could ask the newly liberated Iraqi people what they think of their recently new found freedoms.
Also, maybe travel to New York City and ask the survivors and family members of those lost on 9/11 what Their Opinion of closing GITMO would be. You think their response would be: "Sure, show compassion upon those whom helped plan gruesome attacks on the innocent. Hell let all move to NYC so they can be our neighbors!"
Better yet, let's ship these fine detainees to Poland, South England and Canada.
Hell even France "volunteered" to take ONE prisoner! How brave of Frenchie...but what else would you expect?

Johnny Sitar wrote:

vedderman71 wrote:

quote]

-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.

I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.

vedderman71 wrote:

Johnny Sitar wrote:

vedderman71 wrote:

quote]

-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.

I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.

i find it humorous that you take the criticism so personally. you seem to fail to realize that we are citizens of the world and by being a "superpower" whatever we do in this world affects other countries economically and politically. our policies have direct impact on the people of countries like cuba, and those of africa, south america, and the middle east. is it ok to be criticized by the people of other countries? absolutely. what makes it worse is we do not listen to them or their concerns, rather we do whatever the hell we want. we preach all about human rights and compassion and human decency, yet we disappear people and hold them without charges or trial for years, we torture people, we impose sanctions that result in hundreds of thousands of starvation deaths a year, we see injustice like in darfur and let it continue, we wage illegal wars and allow those that waged such naked aggression to walk freely among us with no fear of trial or retribution, i could go on but i do not feel like typing all night.

you say soldiers willingly "put their life on the line for complete strangers" i am so sick of hearing this line spouted off all the time. most of the people that say that have given no thought to the fact that not all soldiers are enlisting to "put their life on the line". you know this is not always the case. police and firefighters are the ones that really do that. most of those guys in WWII were drafted and did not sign up to fight the war. in the case of the military, some have no other way in life so they join the military. most of the fuck ups i used to hang out with ended up in the service because they could not hold a job anywhere else and could not hack it in college, or they dropped out of high school to work at a gas station. some are children of officers who went to militaty school and were bred to be officers and career military people. soldiers, since the korean war and the vietnam war, are not for defending this country like they are supposed to, rather they are the aggressors and invade foreign countries. there is nothing defensive about that. WWII was finished over 60 years ago. how long are people like you going to hold it over the rest of the world's heads what our grandparents and greatgrandparents did? our generation had nothing to do with it so we can now stop taking responsibility for something that none of us ever did. everyone acts like "you all would be speaking german if it was not for us..." this is bullshit because who is to say that had the nazis won the war, other countries would not have risen up and overthrown them a few years later? germany rose up after WWI, why couldn't the US or England, or Russia do it after a hypothetical defeat in WWII???? you say check the numbers on D-Day as if no other countries lost any soldiers. give me a break.

but all of this has nothing to do with the fact that gitmo needs to be shut down. either charge those people or let them go. many have been there 7 years or more. how would you feel if it were you that was taken away from your homeland, beaten, tortured, having no contact with your family or friends or kids, you are just disappeared. still living, but dead to your family. your country would have no power to even negotiate on your beahlf. you would just be at the mercy of your captors. personally i would rather die. so can you see how what we are doing in gitmo is wrong???

and please stop invoking the victims of 9/11. are those 3000 people's lives worth more than the million dead iraqis? i hardly think so. a life is a life is a life, and when we kill innocent people it is just as wrong as them killing our innocent people on 9/11. 9/11 is no excuse for the way this country has acted. 9/11 was the equivalent of us getting punched in the face at a party and our response is like returning to the party with some friends and some guns and firing on whoever moves.

the bottom line is gitmo is yet another black eye on my country. just like these 2 wars, just like the torture, just like the use of depleted uranium, just like our unwavering support for isreal. all of this needs to stop, and the rest of the world does not owe us a blow job for the good things that we do do. we are leaders in this world, and we can choose to be benevolent decent leaders or we can be horrible apathetic leaders, its up to us to choose.

vedderman71 wrote:

Johnny Sitar wrote:

vedderman71 wrote:

quote]

-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.

I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.

alright, let me rephrase about why the US goes to war........"why the US goes to war in the last 15 years or so".

It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.

The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.

So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?

aerial wrote:

alright, let me rephrase about why the US goes to war........"why the US goes to war in the last 15 years or s



It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.



The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.

So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?

How can there be war with no innocent people killed?.....when you have cowards hiding in Mosque and innocent peoples homes?.....Do you really think Americans like killing the innocent?
9/11 was a cowardly attack! Not a war . . . And how dare you compare Americans to fanatic Muslims . . . Americans don’t kill because of a persons religion. If we attack we just about give the enemy a 30 day notice, because we DO NOT want collateral damage...[/quote]



that is the point!!!

no war = no innocent victims.

why do you support war so much? there should not be any wars. again you use the muslims as an example "cowards hiding in mosques" etc... what about blackwater targeting innocent civillians for no apparent reason? haditha comes to mind here....and there you go again with your american superiority complex. don't you think that people like you thinking they are greater than the muslim world might be fueling this animosity? it is not because they hate our freedom i can tell you that much. we are all human and nobody is any greater or lesser than anyone else. did your mom not teach you that as a kid? americans DO kill people bacause of religion. look at the anti abortion people that bomb clinics and murder doctors. most of these people are christian fundamentalists. the KKK was an organizaion based on religion with a deep hatred of catholics and jews.

vedderman71 wrote:

I find a bit odd that the biggest critics of US policies are folks from Polland, England and some from Canada.
I realize WWII was several decades ago, but my Grandfather didn't take bullet in vain so you folks weren't forced to become Nazis and speak German. Whenever the world gets in a skirmish, many turn to the US for help. We ARE the World's police, so be it.
I'm not going to apologize for the fact that we, as proud Americans, tend to take exception to people attacking innocent people; let alone Our Own innocent.
The Known Terrorist that are confined at Gitmo are the same people Recruiting the suicide bombers, Training young people how to fire an AK-47 at the innocent. Many of the detainees were on CIA and FBI "whatch lists" that were basically "observed" during the weak Clinton administration.
If you want to sit back and take unfounded ignorant cheap shots at the US from the confort of your peaceful home-town, then that is your choice. Or, you could ask the newly liberated Iraqi people what they think of their recently new found freedoms.
Also, maybe travel to New York City and ask the survivors and family members of those lost on 9/11 what Their Opinion of closing GITMO would be. You think their response would be: "Sure, show compassion upon those whom helped plan gruesome attacks on the innocent. Hell let all move to NYC so they can be our neighbors!"
Better yet, let's ship these fine detainees to Poland, South England and Canada.
Hell even France "volunteered" to take ONE prisoner! How brave of Frenchie...but what else would you expect?

just so you know, even on this forum there are bigger critics yet and they're all over the world (including what you imagine to be the "liberated Iraqis" and their "new found freedoms")... when you have foreign soldiers barge into your country, trust me... it's never about liberation or freedom....that's TV... it's about self righteousness and that shit gets to me... Pearl Jam have followers all over the world (including in Muslim countries:)) because their music is innately human and honest... and that's why i believe in Pearl Jam.... i've travelled to different countries and it's all the same everywhere cuz we're all just human beings, but in surroundings which are in varying stages of development ...the poverty, the wealth, the ignorance, the awareness... but abstract concepts like freedom and liberty, 1st world, 3rd world, that's all bullshit cuz i've seen too much 3rd world in supposedly 1st world countries... no one or no country is either better or worse than any other... but too many proclaim to be better than others...we call some people soldiers and others terrorists when they're all just fuckin killin each other... Gitmo is just one of many indicators of the crazy hypocricy. You've taken some really hard hits at the Poles, Canadians, the English, and for what... cuz you think you're better than them or your country better than theirs... that's sad cuz that's what leaders of nations do to their citizens and individuals in general ... train them to be self righteous know it alls... i thought people digging Pearl Jam would know better cuz it's not about right wing and left wing, good and evil or any of that meaningless shit, it's about compassion and humanity for heaven's sake...