osama bl said he staged the attacks becuase of US military presence in mecca, islam's holiets site, becuase of support for israel, and because the us had invaded arab countries and was arming and supporting miltant dictators. you know how i know this? because he fucking said it. what on that list has changed? add another invaded and occupied country to the list, 2 actually. we're making it worse, not better by fighting them.
But there is the other side to this - if the US wasnt involved, then Osama BL & co would just attack whatever other nation was doing the things the US did....some nation will always be a superpower, and having enemies is part of that role.
Also, while 9/11 was horrendous, lets remember that Al Qaeda have attacked many other nations: particularly bad attacks in Spain, UK, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, etc, all for their political roles in different wars. The problem with using Al Qaeda as a standard of political opposition is ridiculous though, theyre just like a worldwide IRA - theyre not political in any real sense, theyre just religious zealouts & fanatics - which makes them even more dangerous. The US is the obvious target for such a terrorist group, not just because of its foreign policy, but because of its position as the current world superpower.
i doubt the group known as al qaeda is as widespread as our authorities would have us believe. i'm sure there is a group, but it seems any terrorist attack anywhere in the world is now labeled an al qaeda attack, wether it is or not.
the US is always at war, and it needs to keep feeding the public bullshit reasons for them....communism, terrorism, drugs, whatever the pretext the outcome rarely varies, and there seems to always be war.
this current war on terrorism is causing the very thing they claim to be fighting. the nsa has admitted as much. that US presence in IRaq and Afghanistan may be adding to the hostility towards the US. its a win win for Washington, the more they wage war the more they have a reason to wage war.
you think these terrorist groups are targeting power why? if china was the worlds superpower instead of the US do you really think the terrorist group of the month would be bombing China?
you don't htink it has anything to do with the war in iraq? or the 700 military bases the US has around the world?> or the "free trade" agreements that are far from free. or the WB loans that destroy gov't economies everywhere. or the constant violence perpetuated and funded and armed by Washington?
people don't blow themselves up unless they have a damn good reason, and the US and ISrael have provided plenty.
i doubt the group known as al qaeda is as widespread as our authorities would have us believe. i'm sure there is a group, but it seems any terrorist attack anywhere in the world is now labeled an al qaeda attack, wether it is or not.
the US is always at war, and it needs to keep feeding the public bullshit reasons for them....communism, terrorism, drugs, whatever the pretext the outcome rarely varies, and there seems to always be war.
this current war on terrorism is causing the very thing they claim to be fighting. the nsa has admitted as much. that US presence in IRaq and Afghanistan may be adding to the hostility towards the US. its a win win for Washington, the more they wage war the more they have a reason to wage war.
you think these terrorist groups are targeting power why? if china was the worlds superpower instead of the US do you really think the terrorist group of the month would be bombing China?
you don't htink it has anything to do with the war in iraq? or the 700 military bases the US has around the world?> or the "free trade" agreements that are far from free. or the WB loans that destroy gov't economies everywhere. or the constant violence perpetuated and funded and armed by Washington?
people don't blow themselves up unless they have a damn good reason, and the US and ISrael have provided plenty.
people dont blow themselves up unless they BELIEVE they have a damn good reason. religious extremists act only because they really believe in their religious teachings. not cause they pay it lip service. if were talking about islamist fundamentalists, then they truly believe in martyrdom and paradise that awaits them. if i were a suicide bomber id be asking the guy in charge if martydom is so great then why doesnt he strap explosives around his torso and blow himself up. but these suicide bombers dont cause they dont question their faith. theyre not taught to question anything theyre taught. they dont need to, they categorically believe it . as all fundamentalists do. theyre taught faith is a virtue. take away absolute faith and suicide bombers cease to exist.
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i doubt the group known as al qaeda is as widespread as our authorities would have us believe. i'm sure there is a group, but it seems any terrorist attack anywhere in the world is now labeled an al qaeda attack, wether it is or not.
the US is always at war, and it needs to keep feeding the public bullshit reasons for them....communism, terrorism, drugs, whatever the pretext the outcome rarely varies, and there seems to always be war.
this current war on terrorism is causing the very thing they claim to be fighting. the nsa has admitted as much. that US presence in IRaq and Afghanistan may be adding to the hostility towards the US. its a win win for Washington, the more they wage war the more they have a reason to wage war.
you think these terrorist groups are targeting power why? if china was the worlds superpower instead of the US do you really think the terrorist group of the month would be bombing China?
you don't htink it has anything to do with the war in iraq? or the 700 military bases the US has around the world?> or the "free trade" agreements that are far from free. or the WB loans that destroy gov't economies everywhere. or the constant violence perpetuated and funded and armed by Washington?
people don't blow themselves up unless they have a damn good reason, and the US and ISrael have provided plenty.
people dont blow themselves up unless they BELIEVE they have a damn good reason. religious extremists act only because they really believe in their religious teachings. not cause they pay it lip service. if were talking about islamist fundamentalists, then they truly believe in martyrdom and paradise that awaits them. if i were a suicide bomber id be asking the guy in charge if martydom is so great then why doesnt he strap explosives around his torso and blow himself up. but these suicide bombers dont cause they dont question their faith. theyre not taught to question anything theyre taught. they dont need to, they categorically believe it . as all fundamentalists do. theyre taught faith is a virtue. take away absolute faith and suicide bombers cease to exist.
that's what people who say terrorists are blowing themsleves up because they hate our freedom use as an excuse. calling them religious zombies is a good way to ignore the real reasons behind the act, even if they are.
these are desperate people. they have more than god motivating them.
i doubt the group known as al qaeda is as widespread as our authorities would have us believe. i'm sure there is a group, but it seems any terrorist attack anywhere in the world is now labeled an al qaeda attack, wether it is or not.
the US is always at war, and it needs to keep feeding the public bullshit reasons for them....communism, terrorism, drugs, whatever the pretext the outcome rarely varies, and there seems to always be war.
this current war on terrorism is causing the very thing they claim to be fighting. the nsa has admitted as much. that US presence in IRaq and Afghanistan may be adding to the hostility towards the US. its a win win for Washington, the more they wage war the more they have a reason to wage war.
you think these terrorist groups are targeting power why? if china was the worlds superpower instead of the US do you really think the terrorist group of the month would be bombing China?
you don't htink it has anything to do with the war in iraq? or the 700 military bases the US has around the world?> or the "free trade" agreements that are far from free. or the WB loans that destroy gov't economies everywhere. or the constant violence perpetuated and funded and armed by Washington?
people don't blow themselves up unless they have a damn good reason, and the US and ISrael have provided plenty.
people dont blow themselves up unless they BELIEVE they have a damn good reason. religious extremists act only because they really believe in their religious teachings. not cause they pay it lip service. if were talking about islamist fundamentalists, then they truly believe in martyrdom and paradise that awaits them. if i were a suicide bomber id be asking the guy in charge if martydom is so great then why doesnt he strap explosives around his torso and blow himself up. but these suicide bombers dont cause they dont question their faith. theyre not taught to question anything theyre taught. they dont need to, they categorically believe it . as all fundamentalists do. theyre taught faith is a virtue. take away absolute faith and suicide bombers cease to exist.
that's what people who say terrorists are blowing themsleves up because they hate our freedom use as an excuse. calling them religious zombies is a good way to ignore the real reasons behind the act, even if they are.
these are desperate people. they have more than god motivating them.
you think thats why im saying it. as an excuse??? do you think im ignoring the 'real reasons' behind the act??thats total bullshit and you should know better.
if they werent promised a martyrs paradise in line with their religious teachings then they would find another way. i will never excuse religion from its role in suicide bombings. these people are fundamentalists theyre not just desparate. many many more desparate people dont blow themselves up. why do you think that is commy?? suicide bombers are extremists. religious extremists.
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you think thats why im saying it. as an excuse??? do you think im ignoring the 'real reasons' behind the act??thats total bullshit and you should know better.
if they werent promised a martyrs paradise in line with their religious teachings then they would find another way. i will never excuse religion from its role in suicide bombings. these people are fundamentalists theyre not just desparate. many many more desparate people dont blow themselves up. why do you think that is commy?? suicide bombers are extremists. religious extremists.
i'm saying its easy to blame religion for everything. living under costant oppression, daily brutality and injustice, seeing your family murdered or tortured, these are the things driving these people to do these terrible bombings, not the promise of 72 virgins in heaven. that's wha i'm saying.
i think it dangerous to label them religious fanatics and be done with it. its a great way to never get to real reasons behind these bombings.
you think thats why im saying it. as an excuse??? do you think im ignoring the 'real reasons' behind the act??thats total bullshit and you should know better.
if they werent promised a martyrs paradise in line with their religious teachings then they would find another way. i will never excuse religion from its role in suicide bombings. these people are fundamentalists theyre not just desparate. many many more desparate people dont blow themselves up. why do you think that is commy?? suicide bombers are extremists. religious extremists.
i'm saying its easy to blame religion for everything. living under costant oppression, daily brutality and injustice, seeing your family murdered or tortured, these are the things driving these people to do these terrible bombings, not the promise of 72 virgins in heaven. that's wha i'm saying.
i think it dangerous to label them religious fanatics and be done with it. its a great way to never get to real reasons behind these bombings.
and im saying youre wrong. and im not simply labelling them religious fanatics and wiping my hands of the matter. i am fully aware of the context in which suicide bombings happen.
if you are taught that the infidel is the devil. that the infidel is your oppressor. that they are, in this context, not muslim so therefore they do not worship the one true God. if you are not taught to think about anything other than what you are told. and remember it will be a narrow field of knowledge. if no debate is permissable then how do you make an informed choice to become a suicide bomber??? no one in their right mind would blow themselves up for altruistic reasons. and thats what your saying here.
as i said before i am fully aware of what supposedly drives these suicide bombers. but i am also fully aware that using the great infidel as the excuse and to ignore the primacy of religions place in their act is as dangerous as what you are saying im doing.
if these bombers were truly desparate then theyd take their own lives. they wouldnt take the lives of so many others. i have much more compassion for a buddhist priest who selfimmolates than a muslim suicide bomber who kills innocent people due to some cause. and do not for one instant think that means i am not sympathetic to the supposed cause of their grievance.
have you never thought that the cause is the excuse and not the reason??
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and im saying youre wrong. and im not simply labelling them religious fanatics and wiping my hands of the matter. i am fully aware of the context in which suicide bombings happen.
if you are taught that the infidel is the devil. that the infidel is your oppressor. that they are, in this context, not muslim so therefore they do not worship the one true God. if you are not taught to think about anything other than what you are told. and remember it will be a narrow field of knowledge. if no debate is permissable then how do you make an informed choice to become a suicide bomber??? no one in their right mind would blow themselves up for altruistic reasons. and thats what your saying here.
as i said before i am fully aware of what supposedly drives these suicide bombers. but i am also fully aware that using the great infidel as the excuse and to ignore the primacy of religions place in their act is as dangerous as what you are saying im doing.
if these bombers were truly desparate then theyd take their own lives. they wouldnt take the lives of so many others. i have much more compassion for a buddhist priest who selfimmolates than a muslim suicide bomber who kills innocent people due to some cause. and do not for one instant think that means i am not sympathetic to the supposed cause of their grievance.
have you never thought that the cause is the excuse and not the reason??
suicide bombings did not exist before 1983, not in the context we are talking about. which make your last point mute. were it true, they would have been doing this for nearly a century. they didn't find islam in 1983. what they were experiencing was repression. israeli oppression and violence against them set them off, not their faith. religion justifies the act in their minds, but it does not motivate nearly as much as the desperation.
if suicide bombings had been taking place before 1983 you might have a point, but they weren't. in fact terrorism barely existed at all in palestine before then.
terrorism and suicide bombings are reactionary. they are reacting to violence and brutality in kind. religion simply justifies it and makes them think it ok.
and to note, i am not justifying it in anyway. but these are desperate people living under brutal oppression, that they experience it daily. there is no escape.
osama bl said he staged the attacks becuase of US military presence in mecca, islam's holiets site, becuase of support for israel, and because the us had invaded arab countries and was arming and supporting miltant dictators. you know how i know this? because he fucking said it. what on that list has changed? add another invaded and occupied country to the list, 2 actually. we're making it worse, not better by fighting them.
But there is the other side to this - if the US wasnt involved, then Osama BL & co would just attack whatever other nation was doing the things the US did....some nation will always be a superpower, and having enemies is part of that role.
Also, while 9/11 was horrendous, lets remember that Al Qaeda have attacked many other nations: particularly bad attacks in Spain, UK, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, etc, all for their political roles in different wars. The problem with using Al Qaeda as a standard of political opposition is ridiculous though, theyre just like a worldwide IRA - theyre not political in any real sense, theyre just religious zealouts & fanatics - which makes them even more dangerous. The US is the obvious target for such a terrorist group, not just because of its foreign policy, but because of its position as the current world superpower.
correct me if i'm wrong but we weren't over there when they attacked us the first time. Or at that matter when they bombed our ship and we still didn't do anything,look what it led up to.
Understanding terrorism: the psychology of suicide bombers
The World Today - Thursday, 14 September , 2006
ELEANOR HALL: A Sydney academic is challenging Australian law enforcement authorities to develop a better understanding about the psychology of suicide bombers.
Dr Colin Wastell from the Macquarie University Department of Psychology will address the Australian Police Summit in Sydney later today.
He says authorities need to be better informed about what motivates people to carry out such atrocities, and suggests that's not religious fervour for paradise, but a sense of justice here on Earth.
Lindy Kerin reports.
LINDY KERIN: Dr Colin Wastell from the Macquarie University's Centre for Policing, Intelligence and Counter Terrorism says the most common perceptions about who suicide bombers are and what motivates them are wrong.
He says suicide bombers are not all driven by religious extremism, nor are they necessarily illiterate and poor.
Instead, Dr Wastell says those who carry out deadly attacks are largely from secular and educated middle classes.
COLIN WASTELL: In general, suicide bombers are not any more mentally deranged than members of their society. In other words, they're not a specifically dysfunctional group of people.
We also know that in terms of the motivations that they express and that we can certainly see is consistent in the literature that they either have used, say in their video taped last wills and testaments, or other material, they are in fact people of deep concern, of deep thought about the injustice that they see being done to the people that they identify with.
LINDY KERIN: Dr Wastell says the widely held belief that suicide bombers are also motivated by promises of paradise and the reward of 72 virgins is simplistic.
COLIN WASTELL: One of the things that's been unfortunate is that we have little knowledge of some of the underpinning ideological structure of the Islamic faith.
And so without that knowledge, it's easy for us to, if you like, latch on to ideas and interpret them through our particular models of reality, or our particular viewpoints.
And so I think it's been the essential kernel of the facts are there, but we then take them and mould them, interpret them, look at them in, shall we say, Western coloured glasses.
LINDY KERIN: Dr Wastell will address the Australian Police Summit in Sydney later today.
The two-day forum has been looking at the key issues confronting state and federal police, as well as customs and security professionals.
COLIN WASTELL: We do have to accept that there is a real possibility there could be people who are disaffected, who are so enraged, who are, by what they see, and I emphasise, by what they see as the injustice, and they wish to do something about it.
To dismiss it would be very unwise.
LINDY KERIN: And as part of developing an effective response, Dr Wastell says authorities need to better understand the psychology of suicide bombers.
He says the atrocity and carnage caused by suicide bombings, should not stop rigorous research into what motivates someone to turn themselves into a human bomb.
COLIN WASTELL: We are absolutely in need of more research that engages with the phenomenon, with the problem as it really exists. Not as we would characterise it, or caricature it. I think we have to be engaging at that point.
Now that's going to be a difficult task, because we're going to be interacting in areas where people might, for instance, say to understand is to condone.
Now that's a message I would like the police to take away from my talk. That in order for us to do our jobs well, in order for us to respond to this threat effectively and protect our people, we need to know the phenomenon as well as we can.
ELEANOR HALL: Dr Colin Wastell from Macquarie University.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_at ... te_note-33
'The doctrine of asymmetric warfare views suicide attacks as a result of an imbalance of power, in which groups with little significant power resort to suicide bombing as a convenient tactic to demoralize the targeted civilians or government leadership of their enemies. Suicide bombing may also take place as a perceived response to actions or policies of a group with greater power. Groups which have significant power have no need to resort to suicide bombing to achieve their aims; consequently, suicide bombing is overwhelmingly used by guerrillas, and other irregular fighting forces...
According to Robert Pape, director of the Chicago Project on suicide terrorism and expert on suicide bombers, 95% of suicide attacks in recent times have the same specific strategic goal: to cause an occupying state to withdraw forces from a disputed territory...'
and im saying youre wrong. and im not simply labelling them religious fanatics and wiping my hands of the matter. i am fully aware of the context in which suicide bombings happen.
if you are taught that the infidel is the devil. that the infidel is your oppressor. that they are, in this context, not muslim so therefore they do not worship the one true God. if you are not taught to think about anything other than what you are told. and remember it will be a narrow field of knowledge. if no debate is permissable then how do you make an informed choice to become a suicide bomber??? no one in their right mind would blow themselves up for altruistic reasons. and thats what your saying here.
as i said before i am fully aware of what supposedly drives these suicide bombers. but i am also fully aware that using the great infidel as the excuse and to ignore the primacy of religions place in their act is as dangerous as what you are saying im doing.
if these bombers were truly desparate then theyd take their own lives. they wouldnt take the lives of so many others. i have much more compassion for a buddhist priest who selfimmolates than a muslim suicide bomber who kills innocent people due to some cause. and do not for one instant think that means i am not sympathetic to the supposed cause of their grievance.
have you never thought that the cause is the excuse and not the reason??
suicide bombings did not exist before 1983, not in the context we are talking about. which make your last point mute. were it true, they would have been doing this for nearly a century. they didn't find islam in 1983. what they were experiencing was repression. israeli oppression and violence against them set them off, not their faith. religion justifies the act in their minds, but it does not motivate nearly as much as the desperation.
if suicide bombings had been taking place before 1983 you might have a point, but they weren't. in fact terrorism barely existed at all in palestine before then.
terrorism and suicide bombings are reactionary. they are reacting to violence and brutality in kind. religion simply justifies it and makes them think it ok.
and to note, i am not justifying it in anyway. but these are desperate people living under brutal oppression, that they experience it daily. there is no escape.
oh i know youre not justifying their actions.
how does this make my last point moot? you are saying suicide bombings did not exist before 1983 and now these people are blowing themselves up, yes? why only since then?? because they are convinced by religious extremists that they are dying for a cause. the ones doing the convincing arent blowing themselves up... theyre getting the impressionable young, men mostly, to do the dirty work. i know criticising religion is taboo and that one must have respect for it, even if one is an atheist. well no surprise that i think that is a load of bollocks.
terrorism isnt always reactionary.
and i disagree(as you know) that suicide bombings are completely in reaction to the oppression the palestinian people are suffering under. but i do think its the perfect excuse. what could be a better one?
ask yourself commy... what is the basis of this conflict? is it not religion? and how does one fight religion?? yes thats right... with religion. not with guns or sticks but with a doctrine in kind. give these suicide bombers a choice that isnt saturated in religious bullshit and i guarantee they wouldnt be blowing themselves up. how can i be so sure?? cause without the promise of the martyrs paradise what do they have?? glory?? the knowledge that theyre sacrificing their lives to bring attention to their cause?? well we are paying attention but not to their cause. the enemy have a better PR machine and the collective guilt of the west is almost insurmountable. and dont forget those blowing themselves are not only muslims but arabs as well. theyre not like us... theyre the 'other'. without the devisive line drawn in the name of religion more people might just realise that the arab peoples are more like us than they ever knew. in fact they are us.
Post edited by catefrances on
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack#cite_note-33
'The doctrine of asymmetric warfare views suicide attacks as a result of an imbalance of power, in which groups with little significant power resort to suicide bombing as a convenient tactic to demoralize the targeted civilians or government leadership of their enemies. Suicide bombing may also take place as a perceived response to actions or policies of a group with greater power. Groups which have significant power have no need to resort to suicide bombing to achieve their aims; consequently, suicide bombing is overwhelmingly used by guerrillas, and other irregular fighting forces...
According to Robert Pape, director of the Chicago Project on suicide terrorism and expert on suicide bombers, 95% of suicide attacks in recent times have the same specific strategic goal: to cause an occupying state to withdraw forces from a disputed territory...'
and it doesnt work does it steve?? so why continue such a practice?? and what is the cause of the continuation of such a lopsided practice?? its not common sense thats for sure. or the thought that they might actually win using such a strategy. the only thing left is absolute faith in religious doctrine.
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so why continue such a practice?? and what is the cause of the continuation of such a lopsided practice?? its not common sense thats for sure. or the thought that they might actually win using such a strategy.
I doubt that people tend to think in such rational terms when they've seen their friends and family murdered, and their homes bulldozed. I imagine in such circumstances rationality doesn't come into it.
osama bl said he staged the attacks becuase of US military presence in mecca, islam's holiets site, becuase of support for israel, and because the us had invaded arab countries and was arming and supporting miltant dictators. you know how i know this? because he fucking said it. what on that list has changed? add another invaded and occupied country to the list, 2 actually. we're making it worse, not better by fighting them.
But there is the other side to this - if the US wasnt involved, then Osama BL & co would just attack whatever other nation was doing the things the US did....some nation will always be a superpower, and having enemies is part of that role.
Also, while 9/11 was horrendous, lets remember that Al Qaeda have attacked many other nations: particularly bad attacks in Spain, UK, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, etc, all for their political roles in different wars. The problem with using Al Qaeda as a standard of political opposition is ridiculous though, theyre just like a worldwide IRA - theyre not political in any real sense, theyre just religious zealouts & fanatics - which makes them even more dangerous. The US is the obvious target for such a terrorist group, not just because of its foreign policy, but because of its position as the current world superpower.
correct me if i'm wrong but we weren't over there when they attacked us the first time. Or at that matter when they bombed our ship and we still didn't do anything,look what it led up to.
the US had been funding different wars in the region for decades, so saying they were not involved in the area is ignoring the reality. plain and simple. I still to this day fail to believe Al Qaede gave a fuck about Iraq.
i doubt the group known as al qaeda is as widespread as our authorities would have us believe. i'm sure there is a group, but it seems any terrorist attack anywhere in the world is now labeled an al qaeda attack, wether it is or not.
the US is always at war, and it needs to keep feeding the public bullshit reasons for them....communism, terrorism, drugs, whatever the pretext the outcome rarely varies, and there seems to always be war.
this current war on terrorism is causing the very thing they claim to be fighting. the nsa has admitted as much. that US presence in IRaq and Afghanistan may be adding to the hostility towards the US. its a win win for Washington, the more they wage war the more they have a reason to wage war.
you think these terrorist groups are targeting power why? if china was the worlds superpower instead of the US do you really think the terrorist group of the month would be bombing China?
you don't htink it has anything to do with the war in iraq? or the 700 military bases the US has around the world?> or the "free trade" agreements that are far from free. or the WB loans that destroy gov't economies everywhere. or the constant violence perpetuated and funded and armed by Washington?
I don't think they are that widespread either. Terrorist groups in general never are that massive, they tend to have loyal and extreme members, but relatively low numbers for the damage they cause.
No, i dont believe Al Qaeda gave a shit about Iraq, i really dont. Yes i do believe the 700 bases around the world and the general US foregin policy are a huge part of it, that was my point earlier.
And hypothetically, if China had more army presence and political clout outside of Asia then yes, i do feel they would attract similar resentment from certain nations/groups. Of course they would!
Lots of suicide bombers blow themselves up for reasons to do with internal politics in their own nations, its not all because of Israel & the US. A huge amount is, but not all. and like i said, lots of suicide bombs have been set off in Europe and in tourist resorts in Africa & the Middle East which have mainly European patrons.
So clearly, its not only the US being targeted.
And yes, the war on terror is a form of terrorism itself, it was always going to be. i agreed with that earlier on - its similar to the Vietnam war - invading for political sabotage and financial gain.
so why continue such a practice?? and what is the cause of the continuation of such a lopsided practice?? its not common sense thats for sure. or the thought that they might actually win using such a strategy.
I doubt that people tend to think in such rational terms when they've seen their friends and family murdered, and their homes bulldozed. I imagine in such circumstances rationality doesn't come into it.
no doubt.
so what makes the muslims different then? they arent the only people ever to have suffered such oppression. what is it within islam that gives rise to a willingness to blow oneself up?
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suicide bombings did not exist before 1983, not in the context we are talking about. which make your last point mute. were it true, they would have been doing this for nearly a century. they didn't find islam in 1983. what they were experiencing was repression. israeli oppression and violence against them set them off, not their faith. religion justifies the act in their minds, but it does not motivate nearly as much as the desperation.
if suicide bombings had been taking place before 1983 you might have a point, but they weren't. in fact terrorism barely existed at all in palestine before then.
terrorism and suicide bombings are reactionary. they are reacting to violence and brutality in kind. religion simply justifies it and makes them think it ok.
and to note, i am not justifying it in anyway. but these are desperate people living under brutal oppression, that they experience it daily. there is no escape.
Commy... you know there are some points i;ve made here and then there are other things, I feel i don't know even know where to start because they're harder to explain... but i gotta say it's truly good to see that you really do see things from a perspective which is more worldwide... firstly, as to your point about the Al Qaeda, in my response to Vedderman's question, when he asked whether Pakistanis see Al Qaeda as a bigger threat or the US, my first point was that screw Al Qaeda because they happen conveniently to be nowhere and everywhere... many see that this group appears to be so made up, it ain't funny... everything is blamed on this group, when it also happens to be one group, unlike others, which never comes out and claims responsibility for fuck all... every other insurgent group does, to make its point... else the purpose would be entirely defeated... the Taliban claim responsibility for every bombing that's takin place in our cities these days, and that is why in responding to Vedderman, I referred to them instead, cuz they're there!...and if one says that Osama is the leader of Al Qaeda, well that 's just bullshit... fact is, like you said, enemies are needed to keep wars goin on and wars are needed for a superpower to remain a superpower... the British Empire remained an empire for sometime because it continuously fucked its colonies and the people therein, by considering them sub-human, thus to be controlled, when it was just the natural resources of places like the the sub-continent i.e India n what later became Pak, that they were after ... the effects are lasting
I quote your point about suicide bombings, because again you've hit the nail on the head... it's utter desperation and anger that drives insurgents...sure they find some justification in religion unfortunately, but then that's not just the Islamists... the Crusaders did just the same, and many modern day US republican presidents have indicated as much... (to my point about the crusades, many might say well that was the dark ages, but please understand that many parts of many 3rd world countries are in a different age, and simply sayin that they should "get with it, cuz this is the 21st century" is just madly ignorant and arrogant... when Europe was in its dark ages, many parts of the Muslim world were in a very progressive state, and one has only to read a bit of history to see that that's fact... while many partys of Europe were experiencing the 'renaissance', Great Britain wasn't rid of the feudal ages til the industrial revolution, but they weren't bombed the fuck out of and told to "get with it"... there;s a process of evolution to be allowed here, but i digress) the fact that the Mujahideen were used to bring down the Soviets and then told to fuck off and subsequently labeled terrorists has everything to do with the matter... arming Iraq in the 80's against Iran, and then bombing Iraq subsequently did not help either... i too am not justifying any act of violence or war (cuz it's all a killing spree and it causes me extreme sorrow to see what human nature is capable of and where this world's headed) but one has to ask why this shit's bein done in the first place... Islamic insurgency does not go back more than a few decades and that's precisely becuase of US foreign policy from the 70's onwards when they decided to start arming the Islamic militants...
The Taliban are currently pissed off with the Pakistani govt and military for fighting the US's war, hence the mess here too... Still, irrespective of what the US wants, more than half of our population also doesn;t want the Taliban ruling the country because we've never been ruled by a hard core religious government
... sure we've been ruled by corrupt, incompetent, feudal motherfuckers, to date, and every now and then by the military, which many of us believe is therefore the only respectable institution of the country, but never by the religious parties... but it just so happens that in fighting the Taliban, we are also fighting the US/UK war and that shit ain;t goin down too well...
one thing I gotta say is that it constantly amazes me how people are so quick to question suicide bombers and call em cowards, as opposed to guys riding in planes, droppin bombs, who are deemed to just waging legitimate fuckin war... i said it earlier, and i was humbled to see some acknowledgment of it here, that foreign soldiers in a country are just as much terrorists (albeit in slick uniforms) to the locals, as mean looking bearded motherfuckers to the West..
correct me if i'm wrong but we weren't over there when they attacked us the first time. Or at that matter when they bombed our ship and we still didn't do anything,look what it led up to.
W ha 30,000 troops stationed in saudi arabia near mecca, Ilsam's holiest site. the first invasion and destruction of iraq had happened. the US had overthrown 1 iranian leader. and the US had been arming and supporting israel politically since it was created.
so what makes the muslims different then? they arent the only people ever to have suffered such oppression. what is it within islam that gives rise to a willingness to blow oneself up?
the algerians werent fighting a people who believe in their absolute right to occupy a land ordained by God.
I don't see how that's relevant.
the discussion was about palestinian suicide bombers. they can blow up a many epople as they feel they need to it and it wont change anything. it wont get them their land back it wont get them the rights they deserve. why?? cause they dealing with a group of people who believe they have a right to the land they are occupying cause God said so. you can fight against a foreign goverment or your own. but when it comes to religion, who are you fighting against?? what are you fighting against?? and what weapon do you use??
so what makes the muslims different then? they arent the only people ever to have suffered such oppression. what is it within islam that gives rise to a willingness to blow oneself up?
The Japanese Kamikaze's weren't Muslims.
well yes thats true enough. however kamikaze means "divine wind" and the promise was basically the same.
and once again... the discussion commy and i were having had become specific to palestinians.
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how does this make my last point moot? you are saying suicide bombings did not exist before 1983 and now these people are blowing themselves up, yes? why only since then?? because they are convinced by religious extremists that they are dying for a cause. the ones doing the convincing arent blowing themselves up... theyre getting the impressionable young, men mostly, to do the dirty work. i know criticising religion is taboo and that one must have respect for it, even if one is an atheist. well no surprise that i think that is a load of bollocks.
islam didn't change in 1983. but he palestinians had been exeriencing more and more violence against them.
that's why i blame the brutality against them and not the the religion.
terrorism isnt always reactionary.
and i disagree(as you know) that suicide bombings are completely in reaction to the oppression the palestinian people are suffering under. but i do think its the perfect excuse. what could be a better one?
ask yourself commy... what is the basis of this conflict? is it not religion? and how does one fight religion?? yes thats right... with religion. not with guns or sticks but with a doctrine in kind. give these suicide bombers a choice that isnt saturated in religious bullshit and i guarantee they wouldnt be blowing themselves up. how can i be so sure?? cause without the promise of the martyrs paradise what do they have?? glory?? the knowledge that theyre sacrificing their lives to bring attention to their cause?? well we are paying attention but not to their cause. the enemy have a better PR machine and the collective guilt of the west is almost insurmountable. and dont forget those blowing themselves are not only muslims but arabs as well. theyre not like us... theyre the 'other'. without the devisive line drawn in the name of religion more people might just realise that the arab peoples are more like us than they ever knew. in fact they are us.
exactly my point. i think we agree more than you're willing to admit.
and i disagree(as you know) that suicide bombings are completely in reaction to the oppression the palestinian people are suffering under. but i do think its the perfect excuse. what could be a better one?
ask yourself commy... what is the basis of this conflict? is it not religion? and how does one fight religion?? yes thats right... with religion. not with guns or sticks but with a doctrine in kind. give these suicide bombers a choice that isnt saturated in religious bullshit and i guarantee they wouldnt be blowing themselves up. how can i be so sure?? cause without the promise of the martyrs paradise what do they have?? glory?? the knowledge that theyre sacrificing their lives to bring attention to their cause?? well we are paying attention but not to their cause. the enemy have a better PR machine and the collective guilt of the west is almost insurmountable. and dont forget those blowing themselves are not only muslims but arabs as well. theyre not like us... theyre the 'other'. without the devisive line drawn in the name of religion more people might just realise that the arab peoples are more like us than they ever knew. in fact they are us.
exactly my point. i think we agree more than you're willing to admit.
the only thing we disagree on commy is that i believe without religion suicide bombings wouldnt exist and you dont. that is my argument here. whats yours?
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the only thing we disagree on commy is that i believe without religion suicide bombings wouldnt exist and you dont. that is my argument here. whats yours?
actually you've been saying religion is why they exist and i've been trying to put it into context.
people dont' blow themselves up without a damn good reason....however much they believe in god.
the only thing we disagree on commy is that i believe without religion suicide bombings wouldnt exist and you dont. that is my argument here. whats yours?
actually you've been saying religion is why they exist and i've been trying to put it into context.
people dont' blow themselves up without a damn good reason....however much they believe in god.
i know the context. as you know i do. but istishad is by definition religiously motivated.
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the only thing we disagree on commy is that i believe without religion suicide bombings wouldnt exist and you dont. that is my argument here. whats yours?
actually you've been saying religion is why they exist and i've been trying to put it into context.
people dont' blow themselves up without a damn good reason....however much they believe in god.
i know the context. as you know i do. but istishad is by definition religiously motivated.
i'm saying you can drive a man or woman to do anything.
and religion plays a big part in it...don't get me wrong. the promise of an afterlife and the idea you are doing wha'ts right, a very strong motivator,, but there would be no need were it not for the daily injustice.
actually you've been saying religion is why they exist and i've been trying to put it into context.
people dont' blow themselves up without a damn good reason....however much they believe in god.
i know the context. as you know i do. but istishad is by definition religiously motivated.
i'm saying you can drive a man or woman to do anything.
and religion plays a big part in it...don't get me wrong. the promise of an afterlife and the idea you are doing wha'ts right, a very strong motivator,, but there would be no need were it not for the daily injustice.
and were just gonna have to agree to disagree then cause i see suicide bombings as being politically and nationalistically motivated.
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actually you've been saying religion is why they exist and i've been trying to put it into context.
people dont' blow themselves up without a damn good reason....however much they believe in god.
i know the context. as you know i do. but istishad is by definition religiously motivated.
i'm saying you can drive a man or woman to do anything.
and religion plays a big part in it...don't get me wrong. the promise of an afterlife and the idea you are doing wha'ts right, a very strong motivator,, but there would be no need were it not for the daily injustice.[/quote]
Bingo........And the fact that we have stupid people all over the planet, not just the southern states.
cool, however, no one was asking you to defend it and there was really no need as my post wasn't referencing you or people like you....i have to ask who you're trying to convince? or why you felt the need?
spin spin.
what's spin, and rather dishonest spin at that, is to say in 2000, when i voted for Gore, by the way, Bush 'winning' had nothing to do with the election basically being stolen but because people voted for Nader :roll:
i could've sworn you held a different view of that election before....
i don't care how shitty the other candidate is. if its not bush, its not BUSH.
cool, i just happen to believe your intentions mean a lot and voting FOR someone rather than AGAINST someone is more positive.
your analogy is true if the nice restaurant was 100 miles out of town.
how so? what i hear is not enough people support the restaurant because they were too scared Taco Bell would be voted best in town if they did. YOU are the one placing that restaurant out of distance and making excuses for it.
'that's the difference between us; you're convinced of the hex'
bush won by how many votes? and obama?
who really knows? the election in 2000 was stolen, i believe he would've 'won' regardless of how many or little people voted for Nader, Buchanon or any other option outside the corporate duopoly. in 04 it is still questionable and people have even gone to jail over it.
but it does seem rather convenient to say voting for someone other than the corporate duopoly is harmful when YOUR guy loses but meaningless when your guy wins.....
you can keep playing their corrupt game, by their rules, and perpetuate madness. just hope the more evil of 2 evils isn't another goddamn bush.
and you're not playing their corrupt game???? you say i am perpetuating madness, dependent on if your guy won or not, and i say you are supporting the madness.
it's the same with my personal boycotts, i can't support companies like coke, nestle....and so i choose not to purchase their products if it has their name on it....i have no thoughts that in doing so i will bring these companies to their knees because i know there are plenty of other people who will rationalize it "well, pepsi did some fucked up shit, too!" true, so i don't buy either of their products, i don't make excuses that the fucked up shit 1 does is still fucked up but not as much so as the other company. i do it because i feel better in not supporting their policies or actions.
and tomake it even more odd you do so while saying you know much will NOT change. YOU are making yourself powerless, saying all i have is this 1 vote every 4 years which is pretty much meaningless....
things aren't fucked up just because Bush/Cheney got into office, it's fucked up because they were allowed to steal an election and violate the law and no one held them accountable, lots of people were complicit. like when they violated the FISA laws, instead of holding the administration accountable for it they, Obama included, voted to instead to change the laws and make what they did legal. you blame the person who instituted it when you need to also be blaming those who helped make it happen, like Obama and a lot of other elected representatives. that's why i say it seems to be about bragging rights as Obama isn't breaking his neck to reverse very many of these Bush policies that you find so horrible, rather he seems to be embracing them and continuing them
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Comments
i doubt the group known as al qaeda is as widespread as our authorities would have us believe. i'm sure there is a group, but it seems any terrorist attack anywhere in the world is now labeled an al qaeda attack, wether it is or not.
the US is always at war, and it needs to keep feeding the public bullshit reasons for them....communism, terrorism, drugs, whatever the pretext the outcome rarely varies, and there seems to always be war.
this current war on terrorism is causing the very thing they claim to be fighting. the nsa has admitted as much. that US presence in IRaq and Afghanistan may be adding to the hostility towards the US. its a win win for Washington, the more they wage war the more they have a reason to wage war.
you think these terrorist groups are targeting power why? if china was the worlds superpower instead of the US do you really think the terrorist group of the month would be bombing China?
you don't htink it has anything to do with the war in iraq? or the 700 military bases the US has around the world?> or the "free trade" agreements that are far from free. or the WB loans that destroy gov't economies everywhere. or the constant violence perpetuated and funded and armed by Washington?
people don't blow themselves up unless they have a damn good reason, and the US and ISrael have provided plenty.
people dont blow themselves up unless they BELIEVE they have a damn good reason. religious extremists act only because they really believe in their religious teachings. not cause they pay it lip service. if were talking about islamist fundamentalists, then they truly believe in martyrdom and paradise that awaits them. if i were a suicide bomber id be asking the guy in charge if martydom is so great then why doesnt he strap explosives around his torso and blow himself up. but these suicide bombers dont cause they dont question their faith. theyre not taught to question anything theyre taught. they dont need to, they categorically believe it . as all fundamentalists do. theyre taught faith is a virtue. take away absolute faith and suicide bombers cease to exist.
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that's what people who say terrorists are blowing themsleves up because they hate our freedom use as an excuse. calling them religious zombies is a good way to ignore the real reasons behind the act, even if they are.
these are desperate people. they have more than god motivating them.
you think thats why im saying it. as an excuse??? do you think im ignoring the 'real reasons' behind the act??thats total bullshit and you should know better.
if they werent promised a martyrs paradise in line with their religious teachings then they would find another way. i will never excuse religion from its role in suicide bombings. these people are fundamentalists theyre not just desparate. many many more desparate people dont blow themselves up. why do you think that is commy?? suicide bombers are extremists. religious extremists.
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i think it dangerous to label them religious fanatics and be done with it. its a great way to never get to real reasons behind these bombings.
and im saying youre wrong. and im not simply labelling them religious fanatics and wiping my hands of the matter. i am fully aware of the context in which suicide bombings happen.
if you are taught that the infidel is the devil. that the infidel is your oppressor. that they are, in this context, not muslim so therefore they do not worship the one true God. if you are not taught to think about anything other than what you are told. and remember it will be a narrow field of knowledge. if no debate is permissable then how do you make an informed choice to become a suicide bomber??? no one in their right mind would blow themselves up for altruistic reasons. and thats what your saying here.
as i said before i am fully aware of what supposedly drives these suicide bombers. but i am also fully aware that using the great infidel as the excuse and to ignore the primacy of religions place in their act is as dangerous as what you are saying im doing.
if these bombers were truly desparate then theyd take their own lives. they wouldnt take the lives of so many others. i have much more compassion for a buddhist priest who selfimmolates than a muslim suicide bomber who kills innocent people due to some cause. and do not for one instant think that means i am not sympathetic to the supposed cause of their grievance.
have you never thought that the cause is the excuse and not the reason??
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suicide bombings did not exist before 1983, not in the context we are talking about. which make your last point mute. were it true, they would have been doing this for nearly a century. they didn't find islam in 1983. what they were experiencing was repression. israeli oppression and violence against them set them off, not their faith. religion justifies the act in their minds, but it does not motivate nearly as much as the desperation.
if suicide bombings had been taking place before 1983 you might have a point, but they weren't. in fact terrorism barely existed at all in palestine before then.
terrorism and suicide bombings are reactionary. they are reacting to violence and brutality in kind. religion simply justifies it and makes them think it ok.
and to note, i am not justifying it in anyway. but these are desperate people living under brutal oppression, that they experience it daily. there is no escape.
correct me if i'm wrong but we weren't over there when they attacked us the first time. Or at that matter when they bombed our ship and we still didn't do anything,look what it led up to.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/conten ... 741219.htm
Understanding terrorism: the psychology of suicide bombers
The World Today - Thursday, 14 September , 2006
ELEANOR HALL: A Sydney academic is challenging Australian law enforcement authorities to develop a better understanding about the psychology of suicide bombers.
Dr Colin Wastell from the Macquarie University Department of Psychology will address the Australian Police Summit in Sydney later today.
He says authorities need to be better informed about what motivates people to carry out such atrocities, and suggests that's not religious fervour for paradise, but a sense of justice here on Earth.
Lindy Kerin reports.
LINDY KERIN: Dr Colin Wastell from the Macquarie University's Centre for Policing, Intelligence and Counter Terrorism says the most common perceptions about who suicide bombers are and what motivates them are wrong.
He says suicide bombers are not all driven by religious extremism, nor are they necessarily illiterate and poor.
Instead, Dr Wastell says those who carry out deadly attacks are largely from secular and educated middle classes.
COLIN WASTELL: In general, suicide bombers are not any more mentally deranged than members of their society. In other words, they're not a specifically dysfunctional group of people.
We also know that in terms of the motivations that they express and that we can certainly see is consistent in the literature that they either have used, say in their video taped last wills and testaments, or other material, they are in fact people of deep concern, of deep thought about the injustice that they see being done to the people that they identify with.
LINDY KERIN: Dr Wastell says the widely held belief that suicide bombers are also motivated by promises of paradise and the reward of 72 virgins is simplistic.
COLIN WASTELL: One of the things that's been unfortunate is that we have little knowledge of some of the underpinning ideological structure of the Islamic faith.
And so without that knowledge, it's easy for us to, if you like, latch on to ideas and interpret them through our particular models of reality, or our particular viewpoints.
And so I think it's been the essential kernel of the facts are there, but we then take them and mould them, interpret them, look at them in, shall we say, Western coloured glasses.
LINDY KERIN: Dr Wastell will address the Australian Police Summit in Sydney later today.
The two-day forum has been looking at the key issues confronting state and federal police, as well as customs and security professionals.
COLIN WASTELL: We do have to accept that there is a real possibility there could be people who are disaffected, who are so enraged, who are, by what they see, and I emphasise, by what they see as the injustice, and they wish to do something about it.
To dismiss it would be very unwise.
LINDY KERIN: And as part of developing an effective response, Dr Wastell says authorities need to better understand the psychology of suicide bombers.
He says the atrocity and carnage caused by suicide bombings, should not stop rigorous research into what motivates someone to turn themselves into a human bomb.
COLIN WASTELL: We are absolutely in need of more research that engages with the phenomenon, with the problem as it really exists. Not as we would characterise it, or caricature it. I think we have to be engaging at that point.
Now that's going to be a difficult task, because we're going to be interacting in areas where people might, for instance, say to understand is to condone.
Now that's a message I would like the police to take away from my talk. That in order for us to do our jobs well, in order for us to respond to this threat effectively and protect our people, we need to know the phenomenon as well as we can.
ELEANOR HALL: Dr Colin Wastell from Macquarie University.
'The doctrine of asymmetric warfare views suicide attacks as a result of an imbalance of power, in which groups with little significant power resort to suicide bombing as a convenient tactic to demoralize the targeted civilians or government leadership of their enemies. Suicide bombing may also take place as a perceived response to actions or policies of a group with greater power. Groups which have significant power have no need to resort to suicide bombing to achieve their aims; consequently, suicide bombing is overwhelmingly used by guerrillas, and other irregular fighting forces...
According to Robert Pape, director of the Chicago Project on suicide terrorism and expert on suicide bombers, 95% of suicide attacks in recent times have the same specific strategic goal: to cause an occupying state to withdraw forces from a disputed territory...'
oh i know youre not justifying their actions.
how does this make my last point moot? you are saying suicide bombings did not exist before 1983 and now these people are blowing themselves up, yes? why only since then?? because they are convinced by religious extremists that they are dying for a cause. the ones doing the convincing arent blowing themselves up... theyre getting the impressionable young, men mostly, to do the dirty work. i know criticising religion is taboo and that one must have respect for it, even if one is an atheist. well no surprise that i think that is a load of bollocks.
terrorism isnt always reactionary.
and i disagree(as you know) that suicide bombings are completely in reaction to the oppression the palestinian people are suffering under. but i do think its the perfect excuse. what could be a better one?
ask yourself commy... what is the basis of this conflict? is it not religion? and how does one fight religion?? yes thats right... with religion. not with guns or sticks but with a doctrine in kind. give these suicide bombers a choice that isnt saturated in religious bullshit and i guarantee they wouldnt be blowing themselves up. how can i be so sure?? cause without the promise of the martyrs paradise what do they have?? glory?? the knowledge that theyre sacrificing their lives to bring attention to their cause?? well we are paying attention but not to their cause. the enemy have a better PR machine and the collective guilt of the west is almost insurmountable. and dont forget those blowing themselves are not only muslims but arabs as well. theyre not like us... theyre the 'other'. without the devisive line drawn in the name of religion more people might just realise that the arab peoples are more like us than they ever knew. in fact they are us.
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and it doesnt work does it steve?? so why continue such a practice?? and what is the cause of the continuation of such a lopsided practice?? its not common sense thats for sure. or the thought that they might actually win using such a strategy. the only thing left is absolute faith in religious doctrine.
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Tell that to the Algerians.
I doubt that people tend to think in such rational terms when they've seen their friends and family murdered, and their homes bulldozed. I imagine in such circumstances rationality doesn't come into it.
the US had been funding different wars in the region for decades, so saying they were not involved in the area is ignoring the reality. plain and simple. I still to this day fail to believe Al Qaede gave a fuck about Iraq.
I don't think they are that widespread either. Terrorist groups in general never are that massive, they tend to have loyal and extreme members, but relatively low numbers for the damage they cause.
No, i dont believe Al Qaeda gave a shit about Iraq, i really dont. Yes i do believe the 700 bases around the world and the general US foregin policy are a huge part of it, that was my point earlier.
And hypothetically, if China had more army presence and political clout outside of Asia then yes, i do feel they would attract similar resentment from certain nations/groups. Of course they would!
Lots of suicide bombers blow themselves up for reasons to do with internal politics in their own nations, its not all because of Israel & the US. A huge amount is, but not all. and like i said, lots of suicide bombs have been set off in Europe and in tourist resorts in Africa & the Middle East which have mainly European patrons.
So clearly, its not only the US being targeted.
And yes, the war on terror is a form of terrorism itself, it was always going to be. i agreed with that earlier on - its similar to the Vietnam war - invading for political sabotage and financial gain.
the algerians werent fighting a people who believe in their absolute right to occupy a land ordained by God.
no doubt.
so what makes the muslims different then? they arent the only people ever to have suffered such oppression. what is it within islam that gives rise to a willingness to blow oneself up?
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Commy... you know there are some points i;ve made here and then there are other things, I feel i don't know even know where to start because they're harder to explain... but i gotta say it's truly good to see that you really do see things from a perspective which is more worldwide... firstly, as to your point about the Al Qaeda, in my response to Vedderman's question, when he asked whether Pakistanis see Al Qaeda as a bigger threat or the US, my first point was that screw Al Qaeda because they happen conveniently to be nowhere and everywhere... many see that this group appears to be so made up, it ain't funny... everything is blamed on this group, when it also happens to be one group, unlike others, which never comes out and claims responsibility for fuck all... every other insurgent group does, to make its point... else the purpose would be entirely defeated... the Taliban claim responsibility for every bombing that's takin place in our cities these days, and that is why in responding to Vedderman, I referred to them instead, cuz they're there!...and if one says that Osama is the leader of Al Qaeda, well that 's just bullshit... fact is, like you said, enemies are needed to keep wars goin on and wars are needed for a superpower to remain a superpower... the British Empire remained an empire for sometime because it continuously fucked its colonies and the people therein, by considering them sub-human, thus to be controlled, when it was just the natural resources of places like the the sub-continent i.e India n what later became Pak, that they were after ... the effects are lasting
I quote your point about suicide bombings, because again you've hit the nail on the head... it's utter desperation and anger that drives insurgents...sure they find some justification in religion unfortunately, but then that's not just the Islamists... the Crusaders did just the same, and many modern day US republican presidents have indicated as much... (to my point about the crusades, many might say well that was the dark ages, but please understand that many parts of many 3rd world countries are in a different age, and simply sayin that they should "get with it, cuz this is the 21st century" is just madly ignorant and arrogant... when Europe was in its dark ages, many parts of the Muslim world were in a very progressive state, and one has only to read a bit of history to see that that's fact... while many partys of Europe were experiencing the 'renaissance', Great Britain wasn't rid of the feudal ages til the industrial revolution, but they weren't bombed the fuck out of and told to "get with it"... there;s a process of evolution to be allowed here, but i digress) the fact that the Mujahideen were used to bring down the Soviets and then told to fuck off and subsequently labeled terrorists has everything to do with the matter... arming Iraq in the 80's against Iran, and then bombing Iraq subsequently did not help either... i too am not justifying any act of violence or war (cuz it's all a killing spree and it causes me extreme sorrow to see what human nature is capable of and where this world's headed) but one has to ask why this shit's bein done in the first place... Islamic insurgency does not go back more than a few decades and that's precisely becuase of US foreign policy from the 70's onwards when they decided to start arming the Islamic militants...
The Taliban are currently pissed off with the Pakistani govt and military for fighting the US's war, hence the mess here too... Still, irrespective of what the US wants, more than half of our population also doesn;t want the Taliban ruling the country because we've never been ruled by a hard core religious government
... sure we've been ruled by corrupt, incompetent, feudal motherfuckers, to date, and every now and then by the military, which many of us believe is therefore the only respectable institution of the country, but never by the religious parties... but it just so happens that in fighting the Taliban, we are also fighting the US/UK war and that shit ain;t goin down too well...
one thing I gotta say is that it constantly amazes me how people are so quick to question suicide bombers and call em cowards, as opposed to guys riding in planes, droppin bombs, who are deemed to just waging legitimate fuckin war... i said it earlier, and i was humbled to see some acknowledgment of it here, that foreign soldiers in a country are just as much terrorists (albeit in slick uniforms) to the locals, as mean looking bearded motherfuckers to the West..
W ha 30,000 troops stationed in saudi arabia near mecca, Ilsam's holiest site. the first invasion and destruction of iraq had happened. the US had overthrown 1 iranian leader. and the US had been arming and supporting israel politically since it was created.
i think that counts as being over there.
I don't see how that's relevant.
The Japanese Kamikaze's weren't Muslims.
the discussion was about palestinian suicide bombers. they can blow up a many epople as they feel they need to it and it wont change anything. it wont get them their land back it wont get them the rights they deserve. why?? cause they dealing with a group of people who believe they have a right to the land they are occupying cause God said so. you can fight against a foreign goverment or your own. but when it comes to religion, who are you fighting against?? what are you fighting against?? and what weapon do you use??
well yes thats true enough. however kamikaze means "divine wind" and the promise was basically the same.
and once again... the discussion commy and i were having had become specific to palestinians.
take a good look
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Yeah, but I just felt like arguing for the sheer sake of it. And you've darn gone and ruined my fun.
that's why i blame the brutality against them and not the the religion.
exactly my point. i think we agree more than you're willing to admit.
the only thing we disagree on commy is that i believe without religion suicide bombings wouldnt exist and you dont. that is my argument here. whats yours?
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actually you've been saying religion is why they exist and i've been trying to put it into context.
people dont' blow themselves up without a damn good reason....however much they believe in god.
i know the context. as you know i do. but istishad is by definition religiously motivated.
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i'm saying you can drive a man or woman to do anything.
and religion plays a big part in it...don't get me wrong. the promise of an afterlife and the idea you are doing wha'ts right, a very strong motivator,, but there would be no need were it not for the daily injustice.
and were just gonna have to agree to disagree then cause i see suicide bombings as being politically and nationalistically motivated.
take a good look
this could be the day
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i'm saying you can drive a man or woman to do anything.
and religion plays a big part in it...don't get me wrong. the promise of an afterlife and the idea you are doing wha'ts right, a very strong motivator,, but there would be no need were it not for the daily injustice.[/quote]
Bingo........And the fact that we have stupid people all over the planet, not just the southern states.
cool, however, no one was asking you to defend it and there was really no need as my post wasn't referencing you or people like you....i have to ask who you're trying to convince? or why you felt the need?
what's spin, and rather dishonest spin at that, is to say in 2000, when i voted for Gore, by the way, Bush 'winning' had nothing to do with the election basically being stolen but because people voted for Nader :roll:
i could've sworn you held a different view of that election before....
cool, i just happen to believe your intentions mean a lot and voting FOR someone rather than AGAINST someone is more positive.
how so? what i hear is not enough people support the restaurant because they were too scared Taco Bell would be voted best in town if they did. YOU are the one placing that restaurant out of distance and making excuses for it.
'that's the difference between us; you're convinced of the hex'
who really knows? the election in 2000 was stolen, i believe he would've 'won' regardless of how many or little people voted for Nader, Buchanon or any other option outside the corporate duopoly. in 04 it is still questionable and people have even gone to jail over it.
but it does seem rather convenient to say voting for someone other than the corporate duopoly is harmful when YOUR guy loses but meaningless when your guy wins.....
and you're not playing their corrupt game???? you say i am perpetuating madness, dependent on if your guy won or not, and i say you are supporting the madness.
it's the same with my personal boycotts, i can't support companies like coke, nestle....and so i choose not to purchase their products if it has their name on it....i have no thoughts that in doing so i will bring these companies to their knees because i know there are plenty of other people who will rationalize it "well, pepsi did some fucked up shit, too!" true, so i don't buy either of their products, i don't make excuses that the fucked up shit 1 does is still fucked up but not as much so as the other company. i do it because i feel better in not supporting their policies or actions.
and tomake it even more odd you do so while saying you know much will NOT change. YOU are making yourself powerless, saying all i have is this 1 vote every 4 years which is pretty much meaningless....
things aren't fucked up just because Bush/Cheney got into office, it's fucked up because they were allowed to steal an election and violate the law and no one held them accountable, lots of people were complicit. like when they violated the FISA laws, instead of holding the administration accountable for it they, Obama included, voted to instead to change the laws and make what they did legal. you blame the person who instituted it when you need to also be blaming those who helped make it happen, like Obama and a lot of other elected representatives. that's why i say it seems to be about bragging rights as Obama isn't breaking his neck to reverse very many of these Bush policies that you find so horrible, rather he seems to be embracing them and continuing them
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'