-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.
I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
I find a bit odd that the biggest critics of US policies are folks from Polland, England and some from Canada.
I realize WWII was several decades ago, but my Grandfather didn't take bullet in vain so you folks weren't forced to become Nazis and speak German. Whenever the world gets in a skirmish, many turn to the US for help. We ARE the World's police, so be it.
I'm not going to apologize for the fact that we, as proud Americans, tend to take exception to people attacking innocent people; let alone Our Own innocent.
The Known Terrorist that are confined at Gitmo are the same people Recruiting the suicide bombers, Training young people how to fire an AK-47 at the innocent. Many of the detainees were on CIA and FBI "whatch lists" that were basically "observed" during the weak Clinton administration.
If you want to sit back and take unfounded ignorant cheap shots at the US from the confort of your peaceful home-town, then that is your choice. Or, you could ask the newly liberated Iraqi people what they think of their recently new found freedoms.
Also, maybe travel to New York City and ask the survivors and family members of those lost on 9/11 what Their Opinion of closing GITMO would be. You think their response would be: "Sure, show compassion upon those whom helped plan gruesome attacks on the innocent. Hell let all move to NYC so they can be our neighbors!"
Better yet, let's ship these fine detainees to Poland, South England and Canada.
Hell even France "volunteered" to take ONE prisoner! How brave of Frenchie...but what else would you expect?
as a christian nation the united states does a lot of unchristian things.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.
I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.
i find it humorous that you take the criticism so personally. you seem to fail to realize that we are citizens of the world and by being a "superpower" whatever we do in this world affects other countries economically and politically. our policies have direct impact on the people of countries like cuba, and those of africa, south america, and the middle east. is it ok to be criticized by the people of other countries? absolutely. what makes it worse is we do not listen to them or their concerns, rather we do whatever the hell we want. we preach all about human rights and compassion and human decency, yet we disappear people and hold them without charges or trial for years, we torture people, we impose sanctions that result in hundreds of thousands of starvation deaths a year, we see injustice like in darfur and let it continue, we wage illegal wars and allow those that waged such naked aggression to walk freely among us with no fear of trial or retribution, i could go on but i do not feel like typing all night.
you say soldiers willingly "put their life on the line for complete strangers" i am so sick of hearing this line spouted off all the time. most of the people that say that have given no thought to the fact that not all soldiers are enlisting to "put their life on the line". you know this is not always the case. police and firefighters are the ones that really do that. most of those guys in WWII were drafted and did not sign up to fight the war. in the case of the military, some have no other way in life so they join the military. most of the fuck ups i used to hang out with ended up in the service because they could not hold a job anywhere else and could not hack it in college, or they dropped out of high school to work at a gas station. some are children of officers who went to militaty school and were bred to be officers and career military people. soldiers, since the korean war and the vietnam war, are not for defending this country like they are supposed to, rather they are the aggressors and invade foreign countries. there is nothing defensive about that. WWII was finished over 60 years ago. how long are people like you going to hold it over the rest of the world's heads what our grandparents and greatgrandparents did? our generation had nothing to do with it so we can now stop taking responsibility for something that none of us ever did. everyone acts like "you all would be speaking german if it was not for us..." this is bullshit because who is to say that had the nazis won the war, other countries would not have risen up and overthrown them a few years later? germany rose up after WWI, why couldn't the US or England, or Russia do it after a hypothetical defeat in WWII???? you say check the numbers on D-Day as if no other countries lost any soldiers. give me a break.
but all of this has nothing to do with the fact that gitmo needs to be shut down. either charge those people or let them go. many have been there 7 years or more. how would you feel if it were you that was taken away from your homeland, beaten, tortured, having no contact with your family or friends or kids, you are just disappeared. still living, but dead to your family. your country would have no power to even negotiate on your beahlf. you would just be at the mercy of your captors. personally i would rather die. so can you see how what we are doing in gitmo is wrong???
and please stop invoking the victims of 9/11. are those 3000 people's lives worth more than the million dead iraqis? i hardly think so. a life is a life is a life, and when we kill innocent people it is just as wrong as them killing our innocent people on 9/11. 9/11 is no excuse for the way this country has acted. 9/11 was the equivalent of us getting punched in the face at a party and our response is like returning to the party with some friends and some guns and firing on whoever moves.
the bottom line is gitmo is yet another black eye on my country. just like these 2 wars, just like the torture, just like the use of depleted uranium, just like our unwavering support for isreal. all of this needs to stop, and the rest of the world does not owe us a blow job for the good things that we do do. we are leaders in this world, and we can choose to be benevolent decent leaders or we can be horrible apathetic leaders, its up to us to choose.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
the country arming the worlds worst thugs and murderers is supposed to stop a genocide? you would think we'd be the last country on the planet they'd ask for help. they've seen what US "help" means in Iraq, 2 million dead later.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
the goal was the breakup and integration of yugoslavia. and NATO had to stress its relevancy. remember that cold war alliance that has no reason to exist anymore? well they made up a reason. and killed a bunch of people establishing their "credibility". like some mafia don.
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
calling murder collateral damage blurs reality. the US killed hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT people in Iraq. you don't get to kill hundreds of thousands of people and claim you are helping them. it doesn't work that way.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.
the number of french gov'ts over the years says a lot about their working class. they don't sit back and let their gov't take awy their rights. they rise up and take away theirs instead. the US could learn a lot from France.
-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.
I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.
alright, let me rephrase about why the US goes to war........"why the US goes to war in the last 15 years or so".
It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.
The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.
So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
alright, let me rephrase about why the US goes to war........"why the US goes to war in the last 15 years or s
It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.
The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.
So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?[/quote]
How can there be war with no innocent people killed?.....when you have cowards hiding in Mosque and innocent peoples homes?.....Do you really think Americans like killing the innocent?
9/11 was a cowardly attack! Not a war . . . And how dare you compare Americans to fanatic Muslims . . . Americans don’t kill because of a persons religion. If we attack we just about give the enemy a 30 day notice, because we DO NOT want collateral damage...
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
alright, let me rephrase about why the US goes to war........"why the US goes to war in the last 15 years or s
It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.
The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.
So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?
How can there be war with no innocent people killed?.....when you have cowards hiding in Mosque and innocent peoples homes?.....Do you really think Americans like killing the innocent?
9/11 was a cowardly attack! Not a war . . . And how dare you compare Americans to fanatic Muslims . . . Americans don’t kill because of a persons religion. If we attack we just about give the enemy a 30 day notice, because we DO NOT want collateral damage...[/quote]
that is the point!!!
no war = no innocent victims.
why do you support war so much? there should not be any wars. again you use the muslims as an example "cowards hiding in mosques" etc... what about blackwater targeting innocent civillians for no apparent reason? haditha comes to mind here....and there you go again with your american superiority complex. don't you think that people like you thinking they are greater than the muslim world might be fueling this animosity? it is not because they hate our freedom i can tell you that much. we are all human and nobody is any greater or lesser than anyone else. did your mom not teach you that as a kid? americans DO kill people bacause of religion. look at the anti abortion people that bomb clinics and murder doctors. most of these people are christian fundamentalists. the KKK was an organizaion based on religion with a deep hatred of catholics and jews.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
alright, let me rephrase about why the US goes to war........"why the US goes to war in the last 15 years or s
It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.
The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.
So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?
How can there be war with no innocent people killed?.....when you have cowards hiding in Mosque and innocent peoples homes?.....Do you really think Americans like killing the innocent?
9/11 was a cowardly attack! Not a war . . . And how dare you compare Americans to fanatic Muslims . . . Americans don’t kill because of a persons religion. If we attack we just about give the enemy a 30 day notice, because we DO NOT want collateral damage...
that is the point!!!
no war = no innocent victims.
why do you support war so much? there should not be any wars. again you use the muslims as an example "cowards hiding in mosques" etc... what about blackwater targeting innocent civillians for no apparent reason? haditha comes to mind here....and there you go again with your american superiority complex. don't you think that people like you thinking they are greater than the muslim world might be fueling this animosity? it is not because they hate our freedom i can tell you that much. we are all human and nobody is any greater or lesser than anyone else. did your mom not teach you that as a kid? americans DO kill people bacause of religion. look at the anti abortion people that bomb clinics and murder doctors. most of these people are christian fundamentalists. the KKK was an organizaion based on religion with a deep hatred of catholics and jews.[/quote]
not to mention we like to kill people while 'hiding' in some room on a destroyer or elsewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away pushing buttons
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I find a bit odd that the biggest critics of US policies are folks from Polland, England and some from Canada.
I realize WWII was several decades ago, but my Grandfather didn't take bullet in vain so you folks weren't forced to become Nazis and speak German. Whenever the world gets in a skirmish, many turn to the US for help. We ARE the World's police, so be it.
I'm not going to apologize for the fact that we, as proud Americans, tend to take exception to people attacking innocent people; let alone Our Own innocent.
The Known Terrorist that are confined at Gitmo are the same people Recruiting the suicide bombers, Training young people how to fire an AK-47 at the innocent. Many of the detainees were on CIA and FBI "whatch lists" that were basically "observed" during the weak Clinton administration.
If you want to sit back and take unfounded ignorant cheap shots at the US from the confort of your peaceful home-town, then that is your choice. Or, you could ask the newly liberated Iraqi people what they think of their recently new found freedoms.
Also, maybe travel to New York City and ask the survivors and family members of those lost on 9/11 what Their Opinion of closing GITMO would be. You think their response would be: "Sure, show compassion upon those whom helped plan gruesome attacks on the innocent. Hell let all move to NYC so they can be our neighbors!"
Better yet, let's ship these fine detainees to Poland, South England and Canada.
Hell even France "volunteered" to take ONE prisoner! How brave of Frenchie...but what else would you expect?
just so you know, even on this forum there are bigger critics yet and they're all over the world (including what you imagine to be the "liberated Iraqis" and their "new found freedoms")... when you have foreign soldiers barge into your country, trust me... it's never about liberation or freedom....that's TV... it's about self righteousness and that shit gets to me... Pearl Jam have followers all over the world (including in Muslim countries:)) because their music is innately human and honest... and that's why i believe in Pearl Jam.... i've travelled to different countries and it's all the same everywhere cuz we're all just human beings, but in surroundings which are in varying stages of development ...the poverty, the wealth, the ignorance, the awareness... but abstract concepts like freedom and liberty, 1st world, 3rd world, that's all bullshit cuz i've seen too much 3rd world in supposedly 1st world countries... no one or no country is either better or worse than any other... but too many proclaim to be better than others...we call some people soldiers and others terrorists when they're all just fuckin killin each other... Gitmo is just one of many indicators of the crazy hypocricy. You've taken some really hard hits at the Poles, Canadians, the English, and for what... cuz you think you're better than them or your country better than theirs... that's sad cuz that's what leaders of nations do to their citizens and individuals in general ... train them to be self righteous know it alls... i thought people digging Pearl Jam would know better cuz it's not about right wing and left wing, good and evil or any of that meaningless shit, it's about compassion and humanity for heaven's sake...
vedderman71 I am surprised You touch these kind of topics? WWII?
I didn't say anything about it.
But if You said something about it, I will tell You something too... My country, (I refer to that because You called first Poland), was left alone in the beginning of WWII. Even we had a pact with England, France... they left us when we needed them the most.
But it's not the point. You said something about taking GITMO prisoners... Actually we had a news in media a few months ago, that we had some unofficial prisons for US prisoners.
Anyway... my post was not for criticize Your country. Read it once more, maybe You will understand. I was talking about all countries, Yours, our neighbours, my country.
And something more - we didn't call You our saviour, You called Yourself.
Be honest - we all do what is best for ourselves, stop being hypocrites. That was the point I was talking about.
Not 10c member? Have sth to say? write to me - I'll put it on the forum
halszka123@op.pl
I find a bit odd that the biggest critics of US policies are folks from Polland, England and some from Canada.
I realize WWII was several decades ago, but my Grandfather didn't take bullet in vain so you folks weren't forced to become Nazis and speak German. Whenever the world gets in a skirmish, many turn to the US for help. We ARE the World's police, so be it.
I'm not going to apologize for the fact that we, as proud Americans, tend to take exception to people attacking innocent people; let alone Our Own innocent.
The Known Terrorist that are confined at Gitmo are the same people Recruiting the suicide bombers, Training young people how to fire an AK-47 at the innocent. Many of the detainees were on CIA and FBI "whatch lists" that were basically "observed" during the weak Clinton administration.
If you want to sit back and take unfounded ignorant cheap shots at the US from the confort of your peaceful home-town, then that is your choice. Or, you could ask the newly liberated Iraqi people what they think of their recently new found freedoms.
Also, maybe travel to New York City and ask the survivors and family members of those lost on 9/11 what Their Opinion of closing GITMO would be. You think their response would be: "Sure, show compassion upon those whom helped plan gruesome attacks on the innocent. Hell let all move to NYC so they can be our neighbors!"
Better yet, let's ship these fine detainees to Poland, South England and Canada.
Hell even France "volunteered" to take ONE prisoner! How brave of Frenchie...but what else would you expect?
-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.
i remember a thread not that long ago where people claimed no one thought that way about the US role in WWII.....
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
yes, some of those people are sent off to Guantanamo and then there's the demographic of innocent people who were picked up because of a hunch or their name was similar to someone else's or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and then they are kidnapped, their families have idea where they are, are tortured and can be held like that indefinitely for nothing
Seriously Pepe, do you have any proof that people with "the wrong last name" is who is being held at Gitmo, or are you just always throwing out half-truths hoping your theories might actually stick to the wall?
I agree process those incarcerated. But to just shut the base down? Where's the planning in that?
Oh ya, I forgot, what was once the most influential country in the world is being "led" by a Junior Senator whose biggest supporter is a day-time talk show host. Of course he has a plan...
Only in America...."It's Evolution Babe-Bee!!"
also, if you watch the movie Rendition in the special features is a documentary called 'Outlawed' on the guy who had a similar last name and was kidnapped and tortured. his family had no idea where he was, he just disppeared off the face of the earth. and when they finally let him go after being tortured they just dropped him off in the middle of nowhere, not caring how he was supposed to get home.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
-why would you find it odd that people from outside the US would be critical of its policies? Open debate about international issues is open to all peoples
-this whole WWII business of "you owe us forever for saving your asses" is getting tiresome. Did the US win that war alone? NOPE.
-generally speaking, the US helps those where it also benefits the US in turn. It is in the US's best interests to get rid of dictators that might take the reigns as the next superpower, or be in control of the all the worlds riches. I don't see the US rushing to the aid of Africans starving to death. Nothing gained there, is there?
-I'm glad we agree that due process is a requirement for ALL humans. The way things are currently done at Gitmo goes beyond what is defined as a war crime. GWB and his administration should be in prison themselves.
-I think many of those "liberated Iraqi people" you speak of might have a different viewpoint than you think. They've wanted the US to get the fuck out of there months, maybe even years, ago. How many of their family members have been killed by US forces, and just counted as collateral damage? Too many to count. All at the price of this so-called liberation, which has just blown up into civil war the likes of which that nation has not seen.
-there are several 9/11 survivors and New Yorkers in general that disagree with how suspected terrorists are treated.
-and the last comment about France, well, let's just say it shows your position on foreign affairs.
I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.
Seriously Vedderman71, do you have any proof that Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around or are you just always throwing out half-truths hoping your theories might actually stick to the wall?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I haven't posted in here in a while because I've been busy with Capitalistic endevors of Commerce. It's a really interesting concept Commy should look into. Basically, you do work producing and selling goods, and then...wait for it ...you get PAID for your goods or services; in this case the harvest of soybeans and corn in order for us to feed the World!
Accross Oceans, I can't even begin to imagine what life is like in your part of the world, nor could I even begin to comment on your culture or lifestyle. Having said that, I wouldn't trade where I live with any one, let alone any one in this thread. I sicerely wish you well, and when/if you can make it to the U.S., I invite you to Central Indiana and we can have a good discussion over a beverage.
Pepe your ignorance on anything American was shown in the threads regarding U.S. agriculture. The "newsources" (I am using that term lightly) you site are internet sites with a strong agenda where they have little to no creditability as valid world news. And most Americans with any common sense see the NY Times as a Verrry Slanted liberal rag with a very strong agenda. Common Dreams?? How very socialist of you, I''m sure Commy luvs that site.
And Commy, the next time I give Frenchie any credit is when I support its nude beaches; or else I get more vacation days (they're on holiday about half the year) or when I work on my appreciation of fine wines. The reason why I sited their agriculture trade policies was to reference the "elitest" view of themselves, yet they continue to limit the amount of wheat that flows into Ethopia. AND the French government is shackling its farmers by not allowing them to use genetically modified crops and won't import such grain. And Before you all show your ignorance on this topic just know the FDA, USDA and the EPA have all endorsed these technologies. These advances actually allow growers to use LESS pesticides and chemicals by modifying a protein in the parent seed. Now EU scientists and universities are endorsing these technologies, but the French politians won't reverse their stance.
And the French revolt because their government is a JOKE. The U.S. has revolution" every 2 to 4 years...it's called an Election. Democracy....hmmm yes, you can say it DEMOCRACY.
Gimmesometruth: I truly feel sorry for you having such a poor opinion of the U.S. military. And I won't apologize to any one for taking my grandfather's involvement in WWII so personal. Just to let you all know how your painting with broad strokes paints a VERY Inaccurate picture of the World, let alone the U.S. and our troops. My Grandfather Lied about his age so he could fight for his country. He said he was 18 when in fact he just turned 17. So he DID NOT get drafted, he enlisted. When the U.S. gets attacked, we kind of take it personal. My younger buddy who just got back from Iraq, he ENLISTED after 9/11. He walked away from a great construction job to serve. One of my friend's brother re-upped for a THIRD tour and left his newly-wed wife at home for another year tour because of his Education in communication technology he is needed over in Iraq.
Johnny Sitar: finding thousands of gallons of chemical weapons that Hussien used on his own people isn't enough for ya, is it? Advanced techinical drawing and plans for nuclear developement and enrichment not enough either? You think Hussien's minions were just trying to study up to broaden their horizons? What makes me laugh is that any proof is never enough for libs. Your neivity on whether or not WMD were destroyed or sold baffles me. You think Iraq, Iran, N. Korea and Al Quida exchange receipts on WMD? Iraq kept the UN, the U.S. and the World at it's borders and check points for well over a month. What do you really think they were doing that whole time? Tidying up the place, getting records in order?
Liberals and many in this thread have very interesting way of "estimating" the number of civilian casualties. So I did a little research of my own, thinking at first to go to Fox News, but I knew you all wouldn't appreciate their figures. So what I have here is an excert from a recent interview from NPR:
CONAN: Joining us now is Nicholas Goldberg, a deputy editor at the Los Angeles Times. He works on the editorial pages there. Last month, he wrote a piece called "The Rules of War" and joins us from the studios at the Los Angeles Times. Nice to have you with us today.
Mr. NICHOLAS GOLDBERG (Deputy Editor, Los Angeles Times; Author, "The Rules of War"): Nice to be here.
CONAN: And as we mentioned very briefly, in the past, by comparison with previous wars, Afghanistan, even Iraq, are miniscule.
Mr. GOLDBERG: Oh yeah, they're really quite small. The Brookings Institution estimates that about, you know, 5,000 or a little more civilians have died in the war between 2006 and 2009. If you look at Iraq, that number's closer to 60,000. If you look at Vietnam, the number of civilians who died was in the millions, and in World War II, nearly 40 million non-combatants were killed. World War I, there were about six million non-combatants killed. So you can see that the numbers in Afghanistan, although worrisome, although bad, are much, much, much smaller.
And normally I wouldn't give much credit to the L.A. Times, another liberal rag, but those are the facts they site...
Chew on that...back to harvest my genetically engineered grain!
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Vedderman... thanks for the understanding message at least to me:) well, i've traveled to the US often man, like i said, to LA, NY, DC, Toledo, and others... and i think you've got a beautiful country and beautiful people... hell Pearl Jam are from there, and they're everythin to me... but really although i might ve been around, i too would not settle and stay anywhere other than in my country and specifically my coatal city of Karachi (great beaches)... you'd surprised but life is extremely chill here... i mean of course what you see on TV is always mad chaos, but i've been playing music and smokin great Hashish ever since i was 13...
but that was my point, every single country has its load of shit and every single society has its ills... I've met so many people in the US with whom I've related because they understand that... of course in this day and age no one's really willing to give a second thought to why rebels (or as you'd call them, terrorists) do what they do... where i come from, foreign soldiers are terrorists to us, just as mean looking guys with beards are terrorists to you... and the difference is not that one group has rules of engagement and the other not, cuz the other does too... the only difference is that one group just does not pretend to be killing for the betterment of mankind... the Taliban are currently playin havoc in my country and killin my people and if shit really hits home, i too might not remain this objective, but i say it again, and i do not mean any offence, that your replies to the others do sound rather arrogant and self righteous....
anyway, should you also ever decide to get adventurous and come to Pakistan (you'd be surprised how many americans and europeans i've met in Karachi and elsewhere), the hashish is on me:)
I haven't posted in here in a while because I've been busy with Capitalistic endevors of Commerce. It's a really interesting concept Commy should look into. Basically, you do work producing and selling goods, and then...wait for it ...you get PAID for your goods or services; in this case the harvest of soybeans and corn in order for us to feed the World!
Accross Oceans, I can't even begin to imagine what life is like in your part of the world, nor could I even begin to comment on your culture or lifestyle. Having said that, I wouldn't trade where I live with any one, let alone any one in this thread. I sicerely wish you well, and when/if you can make it to the U.S., I invite you to Central Indiana and we can have a good discussion over a beverage.
Pepe your ignorance on anything American was shown in the threads regarding U.S. agriculture. The "newsources" (I am using that term lightly) you site are internet sites with a strong agenda where they have little to no creditability as valid world news. And most Americans with any common sense see the NY Times as a Verrry Slanted liberal rag with a very strong agenda. Common Dreams?? How very socialist of you, I''m sure Commy luvs that site.
And Commy, the next time I give Frenchie any credit is when I support its nude beaches; or else I get more vacation days (they're on holiday about half the year) or when I work on my appreciation of fine wines. The reason why I sited their agriculture trade policies was to reference the "elitest" view of themselves, yet they continue to limit the amount of wheat that flows into Ethopia. AND the French government is shackling its farmers by not allowing them to use genetically modified crops and won't import such grain. And Before you all show your ignorance on this topic just know the FDA, USDA and the EPA have all endorsed these technologies. These advances actually allow growers to use LESS pesticides and chemicals by modifying a protein in the parent seed. Now EU scientists and universities are endorsing these technologies, but the French politians won't reverse their stance.
And the French revolt because their government is a JOKE. The U.S. has revolution" every 2 to 4 years...it's called an Election. Democracy....hmmm yes, you can say it DEMOCRACY.
Gimmesometruth: I truly feel sorry for you having such a poor opinion of the U.S. military. And I won't apologize to any one for taking my grandfather's involvement in WWII so personal. Just to let you all know how your painting with broad strokes paints a VERY Inaccurate picture of the World, let alone the U.S. and our troops. My Grandfather Lied about his age so he could fight for his country. He said he was 18 when in fact he just turned 17. So he DID NOT get drafted, he enlisted. When the U.S. gets attacked, we kind of take it personal. My younger buddy who just got back from Iraq, he ENLISTED after 9/11. He walked away from a great construction job to serve. One of my friend's brother re-upped for a THIRD tour and left his newly-wed wife at home for another year tour because of his Education in communication technology he is needed over in Iraq.
Johnny Sitar: finding thousands of gallons of chemical weapons that Hussien used on his own people isn't enough for ya, is it? Advanced techinical drawing and plans for nuclear developement and enrichment not enough either? You think Hussien's minions were just trying to study up to broaden their horizons? What makes me laugh is that any proof is never enough for libs. Your neivity on whether or not WMD were destroyed or sold baffles me. You think Iraq, Iran, N. Korea and Al Quida exchange receipts on WMD? Iraq kept the UN, the U.S. and the World at it's borders and check points for well over a month. What do you really think they were doing that whole time? Tidying up the place, getting records in order?
Liberals and many in this thread have very interesting way of "estimating" the number of civilian casualties. So I did a little research of my own, thinking at first to go to Fox News, but I knew you all wouldn't appreciate their figures. So what I have here is an excert from a recent interview from NPR:
CONAN: Joining us now is Nicholas Goldberg, a deputy editor at the Los Angeles Times. He works on the editorial pages there. Last month, he wrote a piece called "The Rules of War" and joins us from the studios at the Los Angeles Times. Nice to have you with us today.
Mr. NICHOLAS GOLDBERG (Deputy Editor, Los Angeles Times; Author, "The Rules of War"): Nice to be here.
CONAN: And as we mentioned very briefly, in the past, by comparison with previous wars, Afghanistan, even Iraq, are miniscule.
Mr. GOLDBERG: Oh yeah, they're really quite small. The Brookings Institution estimates that about, you know, 5,000 or a little more civilians have died in the war between 2006 and 2009. If you look at Iraq, that number's closer to 60,000. If you look at Vietnam, the number of civilians who died was in the millions, and in World War II, nearly 40 million non-combatants were killed. World War I, there were about six million non-combatants killed. So you can see that the numbers in Afghanistan, although worrisome, although bad, are much, much, much smaller.
And normally I wouldn't give much credit to the L.A. Times, another liberal rag, but those are the facts they site...
Chew on that...back to harvest my genetically engineered grain!
I haven't posted in here in a while because I've been busy with Capitalistic endevors of Commerce. It's a really interesting concept Commy should look into. Basically, you do work producing and selling goods, and then...wait for it ...you get PAID for your goods or services; in this case the harvest of soybeans and corn in order for us to feed the World!
Accross Oceans, I can't even begin to imagine what life is like in your part of the world, nor could I even begin to comment on your culture or lifestyle. Having said that, I wouldn't trade where I live with any one, let alone any one in this thread. I sicerely wish you well, and when/if you can make it to the U.S., I invite you to Central Indiana and we can have a good discussion over a beverage.
Pepe your ignorance on anything American was shown in the threads regarding U.S. agriculture. The "newsources" (I am using that term lightly) you site are internet sites with a strong agenda where they have little to no creditability as valid world news. And most Americans with any common sense see the NY Times as a Verrry Slanted liberal rag with a very strong agenda. Common Dreams?? How very socialist of you, I''m sure Commy luvs that site.
And Commy, the next time I give Frenchie any credit is when I support its nude beaches; or else I get more vacation days (they're on holiday about half the year) or when I work on my appreciation of fine wines. The reason why I sited their agriculture trade policies was to reference the "elitest" view of themselves, yet they continue to limit the amount of wheat that flows into Ethopia. AND the French government is shackling its farmers by not allowing them to use genetically modified crops and won't import such grain. And Before you all show your ignorance on this topic just know the FDA, USDA and the EPA has all endorsed these technologies. These advances actually allow growers to use LESS pesticides and chemicals by modifying a protein in the parent seed. Now EU scientists and universities are endorsing these technologies, but the French politians won't reverse their stance.
And the French revolt because their government is a JOKE. The U.S. has revolution" every 2 to 4 years...it's called an Election. Democracy....hmmm yes, you can say it DEMOCRACY.
Gimmesometruth: I truly feel sorry for you having such a poor opinion of the U.S. military. And I won't apologize to any one for taking my grandfather's involvement in WWII so personal. Just to let you all know how your painting with broad strokes paints a VERY Inaccurate picture of the World, let alone the U.S. and our troops. My Grandfather Lied about his age so he could fight for his country. He said he was 18 when in fact he just turned 17. So he DID NOT get drafted, he enlisted. When the U.S. gets attacked, we kind of take it personal. My younger buddy who just got back from Iraq, he ENLISTED after 9/11. He walked away from a great construction job to serve. One of my friend's brother re-upped for a THIRD tour and left his newly-wed wife at home for another year tour because of his Education in communication technology he is needed over in Iraq.
Johnny Sitar: finding thousands of gallons of chemical weapons that Hussien used on his own people isn't enough for ya, is it? Advanced techinical drawing and plans for nuclear developement and enrichment not enough either? You think Hussien's minions were just trying to study up to broaden their horizons? What makes me laugh is that any proof is never enough for libs. Your neivity on whether or not WMD were destroyed or sold baffles me. You think Iraq, Iran, N. Korea and Al Quida exchange receipts on WMD? Iraq kept the UN, the U.S. and the World at it's borders and check points for well over a month. What do you really think they were doing that whole time? Tidying up the place, getting records in order?
Liberals and many in this thread have very interesting way of "estimating" the number of civilian casualties. So I did a little research of my own, thinking at first to go to Fox News, but I knew you all wouldn't appreciate their figures. So what I have here is an excert from a recent interview from NPR:
CONAN: Joining us now is Nicholas Goldberg, a deputy editor at the Los Angeles Times. He works on the editorial pages there. Last month, he wrote a piece called "The Rules of War" and joins us from the studios at the Los Angeles Times. Nice to have you with us today.
Mr. NICHOLAS GOLDBERG (Deputy Editor, Los Angeles Times; Author, "The Rules of War"): Nice to be here.
CONAN: And as we mentioned very briefly, in the past, by comparison with previous wars, Afghanistan, even Iraq, are miniscule.
Mr. GOLDBERG: Oh yeah, they're really quite small. The Brookings Institution estimates that about, you know, 5,000 or a little more civilians have died in the war between 2006 and 2009. If you look at Iraq, that number's closer to 60,000. If you look at Vietnam, the number of civilians who died was in the millions, and in World War II, nearly 40 million non-combatants were killed. World War I, there were about six million non-combatants killed. So you can see that the numbers in Afghanistan, although worrisome, although bad, are much, much, much smaller.
And normally I wouldn't give much credit to the L.A. Times, another liberal rag, but those are the facts they site...
Chew on that...back to harvest my genetically engineered grain!
while your ranting post was an entertaining read, you made no reference to gitmo anywhere in that entire post. rather, you managed to take shots at several posters here and even the country of france. you call me naieve, but i think you are the one that is naieve. we have had threads on here going round and round about the number of civillian causalties in iraq. there is a thread search feature, i suggest you use it sometime. i would have you read the Lancet report that specifies a number much larger than the 5000 your article states. i do not have a sad view of the military, i just think it is the biggest money pit. we have wasted billions and billions on thee wars and for what? we have plenty of other things we could have funded with that money rather than playing in the sand and blowing shit up and getting our soldiers killed and killing civillians. kudos to your friends and family for enlisting, but the vast majority of WWII and vietnam vets were drafted, not enlisted. i would love to reply to all of the rest of your post, but i am at work and am in no postiton to get into an internet pissing match with you. i will reply to this when i have more time.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
it's good to see that some of you do think smartly about these matters... indeed on my visits to the US, it is Americans like you whom i've had the pleasure of gettin to know... and i don't think it's just that the US military that's to blame... i look at my own country and the fucks who run it and i grieve...i think it's very important to look at ourselves and where we respectively come from before we start condeming the rest of the world and people we know little or nothing about...
Common Dreams?? How very socialist of you, I''m sure Commy luvs that site.
And Commy, the next time I give Frenchie any credit is when I support its nude beaches; or else I get more vacation days (they're on holiday about half the year) or when I work on my appreciation of fine wines. The reason why I sited their agriculture trade policies was to reference the "elitest" view of themselves, yet they continue to limit the amount of wheat that flows into Ethopia. AND the French government is shackling its farmers by not allowing them to use genetically modified crops and won't import such grain. And Before you all show your ignorance on this topic just know the FDA, USDA and the EPA have all endorsed these technologies. These advances actually allow growers to use LESS pesticides and chemicals by modifying a protein in the parent seed. Now EU scientists and universities are endorsing these technologies, but the French politians won't reverse their stance.
And the French revolt because their government is a JOKE. The U.S. has revolution" every 2 to 4 years...it's called an Election. Democracy....hmmm yes, you can say it DEMOCRACY.
oh right. monsanto and their wonderful terminator technology., helping local farmers by forcing them to buy new seeds every year. and if you're using their seeds you have to use their chemicals too, another wonderful side affect. and if the seed has a pesticide in its dna, or whatever they fuck they do to make them resistant to bugs.....that toxin seeps into the soil, from the roots of the plants. bt toxin, thanks for putting that in our soil.
and giving a corporation the power over our food is the dumbest idea of all time. if they modify enough crops and buy enough patents, they could hold governments hostage. you could see why some, the french for example, might be opposed to it.
that's why capitalism fails. whats best for human beings is not necessarily the path that is taken. profit guides that.
and trading a militant capitalist for another militant capitalist every 4 years on election day does not qualify as a revolution. it doesn't even qualify as a democracy.
I have actually stated my position on GITMO on p. 2 of this thread:
"I agree process those incarcerated. But to just shut the base down? Where's the planning in that?
Oh ya, I forgot, what was once the most influential country in the world is being "led" by a Junior Senator whose biggest supporter is a day-time talk show host. Of course he has a plan...
Only in America...."It's Evolution Babe-Bee!!"
Obama has not stated his plans for Gitmo because he grossly underestimated the task. Now he's stuck trying to uphold an election promise, when in fact the problem at hand doesn't have an easy over-nite "feel good" way to solve the complexity of the problem. Unfortuantely, I am not so nieve to think that at least a few detainees are innocent. Get them processed. But for those that are guilty of warm crimes; recruiting suicide bombers; training young people to fire AK-47's (left overs from the COMMUNIST U.S.S.R.) at the innocent; recruiting and training fellow terrorist to fly planes into buildings full of business workers.
And as for the Iraqi civilian losses, it's so hard to ever say what happened in each individual battle. But here's an example from the same NPR interview session referencing fighting in Afghanistan and how the Taliban use civilians as shields.
CONAN: You say reduce the number of airstrikes - much tighter rules. You were one of the reporters who went and investigated, not in Helmand Province, but out in the western part of Afghanistan, the airstrike that, well, it's become notorious.
BOWMAN: Exactly. It was in Farah Province back in May, and we don't know exactly how many were killed. The Americans say roughly 30, 35 civilians were killed. The Afghan government said it was 140. And that happened when airstrikes were called in, including a B-2 bomber, a huge bomber. And again, this is a case where, you know, the Taliban are shooting back at the Americans. There were some Afghan police and army involved in that, caught up in that. And the decision by the commander on the ground, to save Afghan forces and to save his forces, he felt he had to call in those bombing strikes. But again, it leads to a lot of civilian casualties sometimes.
CONAN: Is there any indication that the Taliban deliberately fights from behind cover of civilians?
BOWMAN: Oh, absolutely. They use human shields. And the U.N. report that just came out said that they got a memo or something from one of the deputies to Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, who told his people to actually go in there, into civilian areas, and start shooting from these houses and buildings, hoping that there'll be a response, a larger response from the Americans that will kill civilians. So this is a tactic that they use and talk about.
CONAN: And if you're denying one of the great forces U.S. - advantages U.S. and NATO forces have is command of the air. If you're restricting that, aren't you restricting one of your great advantages?
BOWMAN: Well, you really are. I think there's no question you're putting U.S. troops at greater risk by doing this sort of cordon-and-search or just cordon operation as opposed to calling in airstrikes. But as they say, the most important thing in this counterinsurgency fight is winning the people over from the insurgents, but I think there's no question they'll be taking a little more risk
Also, this same radio interview, the interviewer listed Afghanistan then Iraq in his line of questioning on civilian deaths.
CONAN: And as we mentioned very briefly, in the past, by comparison with previous wars, Afghanistan, even Iraq, are miniscule.
Mr. GOLDBERG: Oh yeah, they're really quite small. The Brookings Institution estimates that about, you know, 5,000 or a little more civilians have died in the war between 2006 and 2009. If you look at Iraq, that number's closer to 60,000. If you look at Vietnam, the number of civilians who died was in the millions, and in World War II, nearly 40 million non-combatants were killed. World War I, there were about six million non-combatants killed. So you can see that the numbers in Afghanistan, although worrisome, although bad, are much, much, much smaller.
And brandon10, you make the "effort" to quote my entire rant then only to hit me with:
"You live a sad existence." No it's weaklings like you who live such a negative existance of animosity towards the U.S. and it's military that leads to why there is so much negativity in the "X-Generation" of young people of this country. You think our fore-fathers stopped to ponder and wonder, "Wow, I wonder what this attack on the beaches of Normandy is going to be percieved by others?" Do you really think General MaCarthur in today's World would give a DAMN about World-wide opinion polls?
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Commy, seriously, where are you from and/or located? If the U.S., I bet you really enjoy it...
I do NOT take offense to yet another ingnorant rants about modern U.S. agriculture, but for the sake of educated you (and if not) others...here goes.
My family sells the "evil" seeds you speak of for the #1 competitive company of Monsanto. So I hate those f*ckers with every bone because of the way they have raped farmers and the entire industry w/ their technology fees. Finally some concerned Senators are looking into anti-trust law infractions levied against Monsanto.
Commy wrote:
"...helping local farmers by forcing them to buy new seeds every year. "
The corn industry accepted hybrid corn as parent seed to be purched every year some time ago, in the 1950's.
The U.S. is the largest supplier of corn, beef, pork and poultry to the World. The only way we could do that is through hybrid seed corn.
There's only two certainties in the World's trends of food vs. a growing population.
1. The World's population will continue to grow
2. There will be less land to feed the masses
The ONLY way to keep ahead of this trend is through bio-technologies like Bt corn.
We've been using this technology for almost a decade now, and we still have both corn borers and root worms.
We are mandated to plant 20% of our corn crop in non Bt corn in order to sustain the insect population.
And once the corn plant dies, when it's no longer green, the active protien agent is inactive, thus harmless, thus not a toxin as you claimed.
Commy ignorantly wrote:
"...and giving a corporation the power over our food is the dumbest idea of all time. if they modify enough crops and buy enough patents, they could hold governments hostage. you could see why some, the french for example, might be opposed to it."
Who do you think Monsanto registers their patents with...seriously? Yep, U.S. Federal Patent Office!
If the anti-trust legislation gains any traction, the US Govm't could terminate the Round-Up Ready patent and we could save on some of our tech fees as producers.
Commy, I realise you might not have the working knowledge in this "field" as some. But again it is another example of some one criticizing an industry you know little about.
Commy, now this one cracked me up:
"...that's why capitalism fails. whats best for human beings is not necessarily the path that is taken. profit guides that."
The U.S. has been a capitalistic domocracy for how long?? Let's see, just from 1776 to present, 233 years.
The U.S.S.R lasted 69 years. I guess people got tired of spending a week's wages for enough meat to feed a family of four one meal!
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
I have actually stated my position on GITMO on p. 2 of this thread:
"I agree process those incarcerated. But to just shut the base down? Where's the planning in that?
Oh ya, I forgot, what was once the most influential country in the world is being "led" by a Junior Senator whose biggest supporter is a day-time talk show host. Of course he has a plan...
Only in America...."It's Evolution Babe-Bee!!"
Obama has not stated his plans for Gitmo because he grossly underestimated the task. Now he's stuck trying to uphold an election promise, when in fact the problem at hand doesn't have an easy over-nite "feel good" way to solve the complexity of the problem. Unfortuantely, I am not so nieve to think that at least a few detainees are innocent. Get them processed. But for those that are guilty of warm crimes; recruiting suicide bombers; training young people to fire AK-47's (left overs from the COMMUNIST U.S.S.R.) at the innocent; recruiting and training fellow terrorist to fly planes into buildings full of business workers.
And as for the Iraqi civilian losses, it's so hard to ever say what happened in each individual battle. But here's an example from the same NPR interview session referencing fighting in Afghanistan and how the Taliban use civilians as shields.
CONAN: You say reduce the number of airstrikes - much tighter rules. You were one of the reporters who went and investigated, not in Helmand Province, but out in the western part of Afghanistan, the airstrike that, well, it's become notorious.
BOWMAN: Exactly. It was in Farah Province back in May, and we don't know exactly how many were killed. The Americans say roughly 30, 35 civilians were killed. The Afghan government said it was 140. And that happened when airstrikes were called in, including a B-2 bomber, a huge bomber. And again, this is a case where, you know, the Taliban are shooting back at the Americans. There were some Afghan police and army involved in that, caught up in that. And the decision by the commander on the ground, to save Afghan forces and to save his forces, he felt he had to call in those bombing strikes. But again, it leads to a lot of civilian casualties sometimes.
CONAN: Is there any indication that the Taliban deliberately fights from behind cover of civilians?
BOWMAN: Oh, absolutely. They use human shields. And the U.N. report that just came out said that they got a memo or something from one of the deputies to Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, who told his people to actually go in there, into civilian areas, and start shooting from these houses and buildings, hoping that there'll be a response, a larger response from the Americans that will kill civilians. So this is a tactic that they use and talk about.
CONAN: And if you're denying one of the great forces U.S. - advantages U.S. and NATO forces have is command of the air. If you're restricting that, aren't you restricting one of your great advantages?
BOWMAN: Well, you really are. I think there's no question you're putting U.S. troops at greater risk by doing this sort of cordon-and-search or just cordon operation as opposed to calling in airstrikes. But as they say, the most important thing in this counterinsurgency fight is winning the people over from the insurgents, but I think there's no question they'll be taking a little more risk
Also, this same radio interview, the interviewer listed Afghanistan then Iraq in his line of questioning on civilian deaths.
CONAN: And as we mentioned very briefly, in the past, by comparison with previous wars, Afghanistan, even Iraq, are miniscule.
Mr. GOLDBERG: Oh yeah, they're really quite small. The Brookings Institution estimates that about, you know, 5,000 or a little more civilians have died in the war between 2006 and 2009. If you look at Iraq, that number's closer to 60,000. If you look at Vietnam, the number of civilians who died was in the millions, and in World War II, nearly 40 million non-combatants were killed. World War I, there were about six million non-combatants killed. So you can see that the numbers in Afghanistan, although worrisome, although bad, are much, much, much smaller.
And brandon10, you make the "effort" to quote my entire rant then only to hit me with:
"You live a sad existence." No it's weaklings like you who live such a negative existance of animosity towards the U.S. and it's military that leads to why there is so much negativity in the "X-Generation" of young people of this country. You think our fore-fathers stopped to ponder and wonder, "Wow, I wonder what this attack on the beaches of Normandy is going to be percieved by others?" Do you really think General MaCarthur in today's World would give a DAMN about World-wide opinion polls?
I'm not about to waste my energy dealing with an insignificant, ill informed, brainwashed kool-aid drinker like you. You get what you deserve. One liners.
And way to keep posting a conversation with Conan :roll: No one cares. The only thing we are accompilshing over there is creating more enemies. But you are too numb to understand that.
You should take Vedder's name out of yours. It's disgusting. And I'm sure he would be sickened by it.
Commy, now this one cracked me up:
"...that's why capitalism fails. whats best for human beings is not necessarily the path that is taken. profit guides that."
The U.S. has been a capitalistic domocracy for how long?? Let's see, just from 1776 to present, 233 years.
The U.S.S.R lasted 69 years. I guess people got tired of spending a week's wages for enough meat to feed a family of four one meal!
and the roman empire lasted over a thousand years. which says absolutely fuckall of its ethos.
i'm a libertarian commy, no gov't . the USSR was a disaster throughout. as is the US empire. as was the roman/mongolian/chinese/and every single empire in the history of empires. and empires fall, eventually.
Actually brandon10, if you had any well sourced knowledge other than your ignorant brief hash-pipe induced opinions you spew here, one of Eddie's best friends was Johnny Ramone, well known right-wing conservative. Johnny and Ed spent many hours playing Johnny's juke-box of classic rock and discussing not rock 'n roll, but...wait...Politics. (Rolling Stone) And you prove your inability to debate by "quoting" my post and telling me I'm not worth your time, yet while not making any valid points to re-buff my quotes from the known liberal public domain known as NPR.
I was able to get 2nd row @ the Champaign, IL show back in April of '03, just after the band was taking heat for "Bushleager." I had a custom made T-shirt w/ "Bushbacker" on the back and "Conservatives have feelings too" on the front. The girls in the front row ahead of me got Ed's attention during the bridge of "Alive," and we showed him my shirt. Ed got a big smile and gave me a thumbs up.
The point of this whole mess is give a damn, don't stay on the side-lines and criticize others while not having a well found factual point of your own.
He who casts stones in a glass house...
Game on brandon10...and I'm "Wicked Smart" and have shot down much bigger fish than your lame un-founded takes a long time ago. Bring IT!
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Commy, yet now we find common ground. NO government is the best gov'mt, less is more.
And (I can't believe I'm bout to say this) but your point about empires falling is excatly what scares the hell outta me. As the US economy falters, China continues to gain momentum.
Commy wrote:
"...and every single empire in the history of empires. and empires fall, eventually."
Point, counter point, that's they way it works...
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Pepe your ignorance on anything American was shown in the threads regarding U.S. agriculture. The "newsources" (I am using that term lightly) you site are internet sites with a strong agenda where they have little to no creditability as valid world news. And most Americans with any common sense see the NY Times as a Verrry Slanted liberal rag with a very strong agenda. Common Dreams?? How very socialist of you, I''m sure Commy luvs that site.
are you serious??
first, i backed up everything i said about some factory farms in the US, the problem with people like you is it's all or none. someone says something about factory farming and even when they state that you take it as saying 100% of US farms are like this!!
are you honestly saying the NY Times made the story up as did those other links? riiiiiiiight, that must be why an international tribunal took up 1 of the cases :roll:
i just want to get this straight....when the NY Times reports
When the United States sent Maher Arar to Syria, where he was tortured for months, the deportation order stated unequivocally that Mr. Arar, a Canadian software engineer, was a member of Al Qaeda. But a few days earlier, Canadian investigators had told the F.B.I. that they had not been able to link him to the terrorist group.
That is one of the disclosures in the 1,200-page report released last week after a two-year Canadian investigation of Mr. Arar’s case found him to be innocent of any terrorist ties.
you are claiming they made this up??
when the raw story writes
Congress apologizes for rendition and torture of innocent man
you are saying this is a fabricated statement??
i suppose you are claiming the raw story made the CNN video stating he has no terrorist links and members of Congress apologized to him themselves?
or are you gonna say CNN is uber liberal and communist so they are lying, too??
or what's probably closer to the truth is you didn't even bother to click on any of the links and look into it yourself
keep yer head in the sand, pal.
here's some more 'commy, socilaist sites' that i'm sure you will claim have some anti US agenda
Maher Arar, a Syrian-born software engineer, was arrested by U.S. officials during a 2002 stopover in New York while on his way home to Canada and then deported to Syria because of suspected links to al Qaeda.
Arar says he was imprisoned in Syria for a year and tortured and has sued top U.S. government officials, claiming his civil liberties were violated....
The Canadian government formally apologized to Arar in 2007 and paid him a C$10.5 million ($9.8 million) settlement.
Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has said the United States mishandled Arar's case, but stopped short of an apology.
i'm sure the Canadian government just routinely hands that type of money out to anyone who makes some random claim, right? :roll:
Mr. Arar is the Canadian citizen who was detained by federal agents in New York City in 2002 on suspicion of ties to terrorism and deported to Syria, where he was held for 10 months. Late last year, a Canadian commission found no evidence to support that Mr. Arar had any terrorist connection or posed any threat, but the panel found that he was tortured and held in abhorrent conditions in Syria. The Canadian government has apologized to Mr. Arar for its part in this incident and has announced that Canada will pay Mr. Arar almost $10 million in compensation.
Department of Justice officials briefed Senators Leahy and Specter earlier this month on the Arar case following a request by the Judiciary Committee for more information about Mr. Arar’s rendition. Following the briefing, Senator Leahy said the Administration still had yet to adequately explain its decision to send Mr. Arar to Syria.
Senators Leahy and Specter also sent a letter last week requesting that the Government Accountability Office conduct an inquiry to determine whether the government provides individuals with effective means to challenge their presence on terrorist watch lists. That letter followed the revelation that Mr. Arar remains on a U.S. watch list despite the Canadian government’s determination that he poses no threat.
Arar was flying home from a vacation in 2002 when he was arrested during a stopover at New York's JFK Airport. U.S. authorities, believing he had ties to terrorist organizations, deported him to Syria, where he was jailed for nearly a year and tortured.
"I have concerns," said Leahy. "My main concern is why, when you have your choice of sending someone to Canada or sending someone to Syria, why would you not send them to Canada, a country whose laws are akin to our own laws?"
Arar, an engineer who was living in Ottawa at the time of his arrest, remains on a security watch list in the United States, even though his name was cleared by a federal inquiry in Canada.
In September 2006, the inquiry released a report concluding that there was no evidence of Arar being linked to militants and that the RCMP provided misleading information to U.S. authorities, which may have led to his deportation.
Four months later, the Canadian government apologized to Arar, who now lives in Kamloops, B.C., and offered him $10.5 million in compensation, plus legal fees
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
And normally I wouldn't give much credit to the L.A. Times, another liberal rag, but those are the facts they site...
oh, i get it, if they say something you disagree with they aren't worth the time and are easily dismissable because they are super liberal but when they say something you agree with suddenly they are a valid source of information
:roll:
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
i do not have a sad view of the military, i just think it is the biggest money pit. we have wasted billions and billions on thee wars and for what? we have plenty of other things we could have funded with that money rather than playing in the sand and blowing shit up and getting our soldiers killed and killing civillians. kudos to your friends and family for enlisting, but the vast majority of WWII and vietnam vets were drafted, not enlisted. i would love to reply to all of the rest of your post, but i am at work and am in no postiton to get into an internet pissing match with you. i will reply to this when i have more time.
i'm sure he'd just claim they made Rumsfeld's statement up but before 9/11 Rumsfeld admitted that trillions were unaccounted for in the defense budget......he vowed to start an inquiry into where the $ went but then 9/11 happened and that plan got scrapped
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Common Dreams?? How very socialist of you, I''m sure Commy luvs that site.
And Commy, the next time I give Frenchie any credit is when I support its nude beaches; or else I get more vacation days (they're on holiday about half the year) or when I work on my appreciation of fine wines. The reason why I sited their agriculture trade policies was to reference the "elitest" view of themselves, yet they continue to limit the amount of wheat that flows into Ethopia. AND the French government is shackling its farmers by not allowing them to use genetically modified crops and won't import such grain. And Before you all show your ignorance on this topic just know the FDA, USDA and the EPA have all endorsed these technologies. These advances actually allow growers to use LESS pesticides and chemicals by modifying a protein in the parent seed. Now EU scientists and universities are endorsing these technologies, but the French politians won't reverse their stance.
And the French revolt because their government is a JOKE. The U.S. has revolution" every 2 to 4 years...it's called an Election. Democracy....hmmm yes, you can say it DEMOCRACY.
oh right. monsanto and their wonderful terminator technology., helping local farmers by forcing them to buy new seeds every year. and if you're using their seeds you have to use their chemicals too, another wonderful side affect. and if the seed has a pesticide in its dna, or whatever they fuck they do to make them resistant to bugs.....that toxin seeps into the soil, from the roots of the plants. bt toxin, thanks for putting that in our soil.
and giving a corporation the power over our food is the dumbest idea of all time. if they modify enough crops and buy enough patents, they could hold governments hostage. you could see why some, the french for example, might be opposed to it.
that's why capitalism fails. whats best for human beings is not necessarily the path that is taken. profit guides that.
and trading a militant capitalist for another militant capitalist every 4 years on election day does not qualify as a revolution. it doesn't even qualify as a democracy.
not to mention how stupid it seems to make seeds that when they mature into plants don't reproduce any seeds.....yeah, let's make our food non-sustainable, makes perfect sense :roll:
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I find a bit odd that the biggest critics of US policies are folks from Polland, England and some from Canada.
I realize WWII was several decades ago, but my Grandfather didn't take bullet in vain so you folks weren't forced to become Nazis and speak German. Whenever the world gets in a skirmish, many turn to the US for help. We ARE the World's police, so be it.
Your slightly twisting the truth here. Every time the US gets in a spat with another country lo and behold our lapdog PMs sends in our troops. I sometimes think the British Army are America's reservists.
After 9/11 Iraq was the target. And in we went.
Afghanistan. And in we went.
And don't forget Gulf War 1.
Comments
I just find it humorous that people from other countries find it so easy to cast stones.
The US most definitely Should do something in Darfur.
And maybe if you had direct family members who put their own lives on the line for complete strangers in a foriegn land you might have a much different take on WWII. No it wasn't faught alone, but there is NO way that war was won on TWO sides of the world if it wasn't for US factories cranking out countless tanks and planes, let alone our troups. Check the number of casulties at Normandy alone and see the ratios of troop losses.
I also think it's laughable that many think the US only goes to war for financial gain. Clinton took us into Bosnia in '92 for....the thriving financial mecca now known as later Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia? Are there large oil fields there?
I have a couple buddies who have come home from Iraq and said the media has it all wrong in regards to how our troops are treated by the majority of the Iraqi people. We need our troops home just like they want their country to be at peace. So I ask, which is worse, a civil war over new-found power, or genocide of Kurds because they don't fall in line? And don't give me the "no proof of WMD" line that I've heard from my liberal friends. Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around.
And your take on innocent family members being killed...you make it sound like US troops were targeting women and children. Collateral damage is a sad fact of war.
And don't get me started on France. They've had more forms of government in my life time than I've had cars and or girlfriends. (I'm 38 and No man whore) As an agriculturalist I can absolutely tell you the sole country that has exclusive trade agreements on wheat with such countries as Ethiopia...yes France. France is the #1 pain in the ass in doing Ag trade with the EU.
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
as a christian nation the united states does a lot of unchristian things.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i find it humorous that you take the criticism so personally. you seem to fail to realize that we are citizens of the world and by being a "superpower" whatever we do in this world affects other countries economically and politically. our policies have direct impact on the people of countries like cuba, and those of africa, south america, and the middle east. is it ok to be criticized by the people of other countries? absolutely. what makes it worse is we do not listen to them or their concerns, rather we do whatever the hell we want. we preach all about human rights and compassion and human decency, yet we disappear people and hold them without charges or trial for years, we torture people, we impose sanctions that result in hundreds of thousands of starvation deaths a year, we see injustice like in darfur and let it continue, we wage illegal wars and allow those that waged such naked aggression to walk freely among us with no fear of trial or retribution, i could go on but i do not feel like typing all night.
you say soldiers willingly "put their life on the line for complete strangers" i am so sick of hearing this line spouted off all the time. most of the people that say that have given no thought to the fact that not all soldiers are enlisting to "put their life on the line". you know this is not always the case. police and firefighters are the ones that really do that. most of those guys in WWII were drafted and did not sign up to fight the war. in the case of the military, some have no other way in life so they join the military. most of the fuck ups i used to hang out with ended up in the service because they could not hold a job anywhere else and could not hack it in college, or they dropped out of high school to work at a gas station. some are children of officers who went to militaty school and were bred to be officers and career military people. soldiers, since the korean war and the vietnam war, are not for defending this country like they are supposed to, rather they are the aggressors and invade foreign countries. there is nothing defensive about that. WWII was finished over 60 years ago. how long are people like you going to hold it over the rest of the world's heads what our grandparents and greatgrandparents did? our generation had nothing to do with it so we can now stop taking responsibility for something that none of us ever did. everyone acts like "you all would be speaking german if it was not for us..." this is bullshit because who is to say that had the nazis won the war, other countries would not have risen up and overthrown them a few years later? germany rose up after WWI, why couldn't the US or England, or Russia do it after a hypothetical defeat in WWII???? you say check the numbers on D-Day as if no other countries lost any soldiers. give me a break.
but all of this has nothing to do with the fact that gitmo needs to be shut down. either charge those people or let them go. many have been there 7 years or more. how would you feel if it were you that was taken away from your homeland, beaten, tortured, having no contact with your family or friends or kids, you are just disappeared. still living, but dead to your family. your country would have no power to even negotiate on your beahlf. you would just be at the mercy of your captors. personally i would rather die. so can you see how what we are doing in gitmo is wrong???
and please stop invoking the victims of 9/11. are those 3000 people's lives worth more than the million dead iraqis? i hardly think so. a life is a life is a life, and when we kill innocent people it is just as wrong as them killing our innocent people on 9/11. 9/11 is no excuse for the way this country has acted. 9/11 was the equivalent of us getting punched in the face at a party and our response is like returning to the party with some friends and some guns and firing on whoever moves.
the bottom line is gitmo is yet another black eye on my country. just like these 2 wars, just like the torture, just like the use of depleted uranium, just like our unwavering support for isreal. all of this needs to stop, and the rest of the world does not owe us a blow job for the good things that we do do. we are leaders in this world, and we can choose to be benevolent decent leaders or we can be horrible apathetic leaders, its up to us to choose.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
the country arming the worlds worst thugs and murderers is supposed to stop a genocide? you would think we'd be the last country on the planet they'd ask for help. they've seen what US "help" means in Iraq, 2 million dead later.
the goal was the breakup and integration of yugoslavia. and NATO had to stress its relevancy. remember that cold war alliance that has no reason to exist anymore? well they made up a reason. and killed a bunch of people establishing their "credibility". like some mafia don.
calling murder collateral damage blurs reality. the US killed hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT people in Iraq. you don't get to kill hundreds of thousands of people and claim you are helping them. it doesn't work that way.
the number of french gov'ts over the years says a lot about their working class. they don't sit back and let their gov't take awy their rights. they rise up and take away theirs instead. the US could learn a lot from France.
alright, let me rephrase about why the US goes to war........"why the US goes to war in the last 15 years or so".
It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.
The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.
So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
It doesn't matter who they're targeting. Killing innocent civilians for the so-called greater good is not an acceptable facet of war, no matter how you spin it. That's like saying it's acceptable for what they did to us on 9/11. Collateral damage to them. Devastation to us.
The evidence of WMD's was destroyed or sold? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. Grasping at straws for the justification of a false war is all that is. The US government never gave a shit about the Kurdish people this time around. If they're worried about genocide, there's' about 150 wars anywhere else in the world where that is taking place. How about those? No oil, that's what.
So what does France's trade policies have anything to do with their military policies?[/quote]
How can there be war with no innocent people killed?.....when you have cowards hiding in Mosque and innocent peoples homes?.....Do you really think Americans like killing the innocent?
9/11 was a cowardly attack! Not a war . . . And how dare you compare Americans to fanatic Muslims . . . Americans don’t kill because of a persons religion. If we attack we just about give the enemy a 30 day notice, because we DO NOT want collateral damage...
How can there be war with no innocent people killed?.....when you have cowards hiding in Mosque and innocent peoples homes?.....Do you really think Americans like killing the innocent?
9/11 was a cowardly attack! Not a war . . . And how dare you compare Americans to fanatic Muslims . . . Americans don’t kill because of a persons religion. If we attack we just about give the enemy a 30 day notice, because we DO NOT want collateral damage...[/quote]
that is the point!!!
no war = no innocent victims.
why do you support war so much? there should not be any wars. again you use the muslims as an example "cowards hiding in mosques" etc... what about blackwater targeting innocent civillians for no apparent reason? haditha comes to mind here....and there you go again with your american superiority complex. don't you think that people like you thinking they are greater than the muslim world might be fueling this animosity? it is not because they hate our freedom i can tell you that much. we are all human and nobody is any greater or lesser than anyone else. did your mom not teach you that as a kid? americans DO kill people bacause of religion. look at the anti abortion people that bomb clinics and murder doctors. most of these people are christian fundamentalists. the KKK was an organizaion based on religion with a deep hatred of catholics and jews.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
that is the point!!!
no war = no innocent victims.
why do you support war so much? there should not be any wars. again you use the muslims as an example "cowards hiding in mosques" etc... what about blackwater targeting innocent civillians for no apparent reason? haditha comes to mind here....and there you go again with your american superiority complex. don't you think that people like you thinking they are greater than the muslim world might be fueling this animosity? it is not because they hate our freedom i can tell you that much. we are all human and nobody is any greater or lesser than anyone else. did your mom not teach you that as a kid? americans DO kill people bacause of religion. look at the anti abortion people that bomb clinics and murder doctors. most of these people are christian fundamentalists. the KKK was an organizaion based on religion with a deep hatred of catholics and jews.[/quote]
not to mention we like to kill people while 'hiding' in some room on a destroyer or elsewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away pushing buttons
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
just so you know, even on this forum there are bigger critics yet and they're all over the world (including what you imagine to be the "liberated Iraqis" and their "new found freedoms")... when you have foreign soldiers barge into your country, trust me... it's never about liberation or freedom....that's TV... it's about self righteousness and that shit gets to me... Pearl Jam have followers all over the world (including in Muslim countries:)) because their music is innately human and honest... and that's why i believe in Pearl Jam.... i've travelled to different countries and it's all the same everywhere cuz we're all just human beings, but in surroundings which are in varying stages of development ...the poverty, the wealth, the ignorance, the awareness... but abstract concepts like freedom and liberty, 1st world, 3rd world, that's all bullshit cuz i've seen too much 3rd world in supposedly 1st world countries... no one or no country is either better or worse than any other... but too many proclaim to be better than others...we call some people soldiers and others terrorists when they're all just fuckin killin each other... Gitmo is just one of many indicators of the crazy hypocricy. You've taken some really hard hits at the Poles, Canadians, the English, and for what... cuz you think you're better than them or your country better than theirs... that's sad cuz that's what leaders of nations do to their citizens and individuals in general ... train them to be self righteous know it alls... i thought people digging Pearl Jam would know better cuz it's not about right wing and left wing, good and evil or any of that meaningless shit, it's about compassion and humanity for heaven's sake...
I didn't say anything about it.
But if You said something about it, I will tell You something too... My country, (I refer to that because You called first Poland), was left alone in the beginning of WWII. Even we had a pact with England, France... they left us when we needed them the most.
But it's not the point. You said something about taking GITMO prisoners... Actually we had a news in media a few months ago, that we had some unofficial prisons for US prisoners.
Anyway... my post was not for criticize Your country. Read it once more, maybe You will understand. I was talking about all countries, Yours, our neighbours, my country.
And something more - we didn't call You our saviour, You called Yourself.
Be honest - we all do what is best for ourselves, stop being hypocrites. That was the point I was talking about.
halszka123@op.pl
i remember a thread not that long ago where people claimed no one thought that way about the US role in WWII.....
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Congr ... _1019.html
Congress apologizes for rendition and torture of innocent man
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/25/world ... 5arar.html
Torture Victim Had No Terror Link, Canada Told U.S.
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2009/08/27-9
International Tribunal Takes Up Case of Innocent Victim of CIA Extraordinary Rendition Program
also, if you watch the movie Rendition in the special features is a documentary called 'Outlawed' on the guy who had a similar last name and was kidnapped and tortured. his family had no idea where he was, he just disppeared off the face of the earth. and when they finally let him go after being tortured they just dropped him off in the middle of nowhere, not caring how he was supposed to get home.
you can read about the documentary
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/9/15/o ... ppearances
and
http://www.witness.org/squirrelcart/sto ... how_detail
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Seriously Vedderman71, do you have any proof that Any good hard evidence of WMD was destroyed or moved (or sold) while the UN was jacking around or are you just always throwing out half-truths hoping your theories might actually stick to the wall?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Accross Oceans, I can't even begin to imagine what life is like in your part of the world, nor could I even begin to comment on your culture or lifestyle. Having said that, I wouldn't trade where I live with any one, let alone any one in this thread. I sicerely wish you well, and when/if you can make it to the U.S., I invite you to Central Indiana and we can have a good discussion over a beverage.
Pepe your ignorance on anything American was shown in the threads regarding U.S. agriculture. The "newsources" (I am using that term lightly) you site are internet sites with a strong agenda where they have little to no creditability as valid world news. And most Americans with any common sense see the NY Times as a Verrry Slanted liberal rag with a very strong agenda. Common Dreams?? How very socialist of you, I''m sure Commy luvs that site.
And Commy, the next time I give Frenchie any credit is when I support its nude beaches; or else I get more vacation days (they're on holiday about half the year) or when I work on my appreciation of fine wines. The reason why I sited their agriculture trade policies was to reference the "elitest" view of themselves, yet they continue to limit the amount of wheat that flows into Ethopia. AND the French government is shackling its farmers by not allowing them to use genetically modified crops and won't import such grain. And Before you all show your ignorance on this topic just know the FDA, USDA and the EPA have all endorsed these technologies. These advances actually allow growers to use LESS pesticides and chemicals by modifying a protein in the parent seed. Now EU scientists and universities are endorsing these technologies, but the French politians won't reverse their stance.
And the French revolt because their government is a JOKE. The U.S. has revolution" every 2 to 4 years...it's called an Election. Democracy....hmmm yes, you can say it DEMOCRACY.
Gimmesometruth: I truly feel sorry for you having such a poor opinion of the U.S. military. And I won't apologize to any one for taking my grandfather's involvement in WWII so personal. Just to let you all know how your painting with broad strokes paints a VERY Inaccurate picture of the World, let alone the U.S. and our troops. My Grandfather Lied about his age so he could fight for his country. He said he was 18 when in fact he just turned 17. So he DID NOT get drafted, he enlisted. When the U.S. gets attacked, we kind of take it personal. My younger buddy who just got back from Iraq, he ENLISTED after 9/11. He walked away from a great construction job to serve. One of my friend's brother re-upped for a THIRD tour and left his newly-wed wife at home for another year tour because of his Education in communication technology he is needed over in Iraq.
Johnny Sitar: finding thousands of gallons of chemical weapons that Hussien used on his own people isn't enough for ya, is it? Advanced techinical drawing and plans for nuclear developement and enrichment not enough either? You think Hussien's minions were just trying to study up to broaden their horizons? What makes me laugh is that any proof is never enough for libs. Your neivity on whether or not WMD were destroyed or sold baffles me. You think Iraq, Iran, N. Korea and Al Quida exchange receipts on WMD? Iraq kept the UN, the U.S. and the World at it's borders and check points for well over a month. What do you really think they were doing that whole time? Tidying up the place, getting records in order?
Liberals and many in this thread have very interesting way of "estimating" the number of civilian casualties. So I did a little research of my own, thinking at first to go to Fox News, but I knew you all wouldn't appreciate their figures. So what I have here is an excert from a recent interview from NPR:
CONAN: Joining us now is Nicholas Goldberg, a deputy editor at the Los Angeles Times. He works on the editorial pages there. Last month, he wrote a piece called "The Rules of War" and joins us from the studios at the Los Angeles Times. Nice to have you with us today.
Mr. NICHOLAS GOLDBERG (Deputy Editor, Los Angeles Times; Author, "The Rules of War"): Nice to be here.
CONAN: And as we mentioned very briefly, in the past, by comparison with previous wars, Afghanistan, even Iraq, are miniscule.
Mr. GOLDBERG: Oh yeah, they're really quite small. The Brookings Institution estimates that about, you know, 5,000 or a little more civilians have died in the war between 2006 and 2009. If you look at Iraq, that number's closer to 60,000. If you look at Vietnam, the number of civilians who died was in the millions, and in World War II, nearly 40 million non-combatants were killed. World War I, there were about six million non-combatants killed. So you can see that the numbers in Afghanistan, although worrisome, although bad, are much, much, much smaller.
And normally I wouldn't give much credit to the L.A. Times, another liberal rag, but those are the facts they site...
Chew on that...back to harvest my genetically engineered grain!
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
but that was my point, every single country has its load of shit and every single society has its ills... I've met so many people in the US with whom I've related because they understand that... of course in this day and age no one's really willing to give a second thought to why rebels (or as you'd call them, terrorists) do what they do... where i come from, foreign soldiers are terrorists to us, just as mean looking guys with beards are terrorists to you... and the difference is not that one group has rules of engagement and the other not, cuz the other does too... the only difference is that one group just does not pretend to be killing for the betterment of mankind... the Taliban are currently playin havoc in my country and killin my people and if shit really hits home, i too might not remain this objective, but i say it again, and i do not mean any offence, that your replies to the others do sound rather arrogant and self righteous....
anyway, should you also ever decide to get adventurous and come to Pakistan (you'd be surprised how many americans and europeans i've met in Karachi and elsewhere), the hashish is on me:)
You live a sad existence.
while your ranting post was an entertaining read, you made no reference to gitmo anywhere in that entire post. rather, you managed to take shots at several posters here and even the country of france. you call me naieve, but i think you are the one that is naieve. we have had threads on here going round and round about the number of civillian causalties in iraq. there is a thread search feature, i suggest you use it sometime. i would have you read the Lancet report that specifies a number much larger than the 5000 your article states. i do not have a sad view of the military, i just think it is the biggest money pit. we have wasted billions and billions on thee wars and for what? we have plenty of other things we could have funded with that money rather than playing in the sand and blowing shit up and getting our soldiers killed and killing civillians. kudos to your friends and family for enlisting, but the vast majority of WWII and vietnam vets were drafted, not enlisted. i would love to reply to all of the rest of your post, but i am at work and am in no postiton to get into an internet pissing match with you. i will reply to this when i have more time.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
it's good to see that some of you do think smartly about these matters... indeed on my visits to the US, it is Americans like you whom i've had the pleasure of gettin to know... and i don't think it's just that the US military that's to blame... i look at my own country and the fucks who run it and i grieve...i think it's very important to look at ourselves and where we respectively come from before we start condeming the rest of the world and people we know little or nothing about...
oh right. monsanto and their wonderful terminator technology., helping local farmers by forcing them to buy new seeds every year. and if you're using their seeds you have to use their chemicals too, another wonderful side affect. and if the seed has a pesticide in its dna, or whatever they fuck they do to make them resistant to bugs.....that toxin seeps into the soil, from the roots of the plants. bt toxin, thanks for putting that in our soil.
and giving a corporation the power over our food is the dumbest idea of all time. if they modify enough crops and buy enough patents, they could hold governments hostage. you could see why some, the french for example, might be opposed to it.
that's why capitalism fails. whats best for human beings is not necessarily the path that is taken. profit guides that.
and trading a militant capitalist for another militant capitalist every 4 years on election day does not qualify as a revolution. it doesn't even qualify as a democracy.
"I agree process those incarcerated. But to just shut the base down? Where's the planning in that?
Oh ya, I forgot, what was once the most influential country in the world is being "led" by a Junior Senator whose biggest supporter is a day-time talk show host. Of course he has a plan...
Only in America...."It's Evolution Babe-Bee!!"
Obama has not stated his plans for Gitmo because he grossly underestimated the task. Now he's stuck trying to uphold an election promise, when in fact the problem at hand doesn't have an easy over-nite "feel good" way to solve the complexity of the problem. Unfortuantely, I am not so nieve to think that at least a few detainees are innocent. Get them processed. But for those that are guilty of warm crimes; recruiting suicide bombers; training young people to fire AK-47's (left overs from the COMMUNIST U.S.S.R.) at the innocent; recruiting and training fellow terrorist to fly planes into buildings full of business workers.
And as for the Iraqi civilian losses, it's so hard to ever say what happened in each individual battle. But here's an example from the same NPR interview session referencing fighting in Afghanistan and how the Taliban use civilians as shields.
CONAN: You say reduce the number of airstrikes - much tighter rules. You were one of the reporters who went and investigated, not in Helmand Province, but out in the western part of Afghanistan, the airstrike that, well, it's become notorious.
BOWMAN: Exactly. It was in Farah Province back in May, and we don't know exactly how many were killed. The Americans say roughly 30, 35 civilians were killed. The Afghan government said it was 140. And that happened when airstrikes were called in, including a B-2 bomber, a huge bomber. And again, this is a case where, you know, the Taliban are shooting back at the Americans. There were some Afghan police and army involved in that, caught up in that. And the decision by the commander on the ground, to save Afghan forces and to save his forces, he felt he had to call in those bombing strikes. But again, it leads to a lot of civilian casualties sometimes.
CONAN: Is there any indication that the Taliban deliberately fights from behind cover of civilians?
BOWMAN: Oh, absolutely. They use human shields. And the U.N. report that just came out said that they got a memo or something from one of the deputies to Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, who told his people to actually go in there, into civilian areas, and start shooting from these houses and buildings, hoping that there'll be a response, a larger response from the Americans that will kill civilians. So this is a tactic that they use and talk about.
CONAN: And if you're denying one of the great forces U.S. - advantages U.S. and NATO forces have is command of the air. If you're restricting that, aren't you restricting one of your great advantages?
BOWMAN: Well, you really are. I think there's no question you're putting U.S. troops at greater risk by doing this sort of cordon-and-search or just cordon operation as opposed to calling in airstrikes. But as they say, the most important thing in this counterinsurgency fight is winning the people over from the insurgents, but I think there's no question they'll be taking a little more risk
Also, this same radio interview, the interviewer listed Afghanistan then Iraq in his line of questioning on civilian deaths.
CONAN: And as we mentioned very briefly, in the past, by comparison with previous wars, Afghanistan, even Iraq, are miniscule.
Mr. GOLDBERG: Oh yeah, they're really quite small. The Brookings Institution estimates that about, you know, 5,000 or a little more civilians have died in the war between 2006 and 2009. If you look at Iraq, that number's closer to 60,000. If you look at Vietnam, the number of civilians who died was in the millions, and in World War II, nearly 40 million non-combatants were killed. World War I, there were about six million non-combatants killed. So you can see that the numbers in Afghanistan, although worrisome, although bad, are much, much, much smaller.
If you want to read the transcript of the interview, here's a link:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =111623604
And brandon10, you make the "effort" to quote my entire rant then only to hit me with:
"You live a sad existence." No it's weaklings like you who live such a negative existance of animosity towards the U.S. and it's military that leads to why there is so much negativity in the "X-Generation" of young people of this country. You think our fore-fathers stopped to ponder and wonder, "Wow, I wonder what this attack on the beaches of Normandy is going to be percieved by others?" Do you really think General MaCarthur in today's World would give a DAMN about World-wide opinion polls?
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
I do NOT take offense to yet another ingnorant rants about modern U.S. agriculture, but for the sake of educated you (and if not) others...here goes.
My family sells the "evil" seeds you speak of for the #1 competitive company of Monsanto. So I hate those f*ckers with every bone because of the way they have raped farmers and the entire industry w/ their technology fees. Finally some concerned Senators are looking into anti-trust law infractions levied against Monsanto.
Commy wrote:
"...helping local farmers by forcing them to buy new seeds every year. "
The corn industry accepted hybrid corn as parent seed to be purched every year some time ago, in the 1950's.
The U.S. is the largest supplier of corn, beef, pork and poultry to the World. The only way we could do that is through hybrid seed corn.
There's only two certainties in the World's trends of food vs. a growing population.
1. The World's population will continue to grow
2. There will be less land to feed the masses
The ONLY way to keep ahead of this trend is through bio-technologies like Bt corn.
We've been using this technology for almost a decade now, and we still have both corn borers and root worms.
We are mandated to plant 20% of our corn crop in non Bt corn in order to sustain the insect population.
And once the corn plant dies, when it's no longer green, the active protien agent is inactive, thus harmless, thus not a toxin as you claimed.
Commy ignorantly wrote:
"...and giving a corporation the power over our food is the dumbest idea of all time. if they modify enough crops and buy enough patents, they could hold governments hostage. you could see why some, the french for example, might be opposed to it."
Who do you think Monsanto registers their patents with...seriously? Yep, U.S. Federal Patent Office!
If the anti-trust legislation gains any traction, the US Govm't could terminate the Round-Up Ready patent and we could save on some of our tech fees as producers.
Commy, I realise you might not have the working knowledge in this "field" as some. But again it is another example of some one criticizing an industry you know little about.
Commy, now this one cracked me up:
"...that's why capitalism fails. whats best for human beings is not necessarily the path that is taken. profit guides that."
The U.S. has been a capitalistic domocracy for how long?? Let's see, just from 1776 to present, 233 years.
The U.S.S.R lasted 69 years. I guess people got tired of spending a week's wages for enough meat to feed a family of four one meal!
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
I'm not about to waste my energy dealing with an insignificant, ill informed, brainwashed kool-aid drinker like you. You get what you deserve. One liners.
And way to keep posting a conversation with Conan :roll: No one cares. The only thing we are accompilshing over there is creating more enemies. But you are too numb to understand that.
You should take Vedder's name out of yours. It's disgusting. And I'm sure he would be sickened by it.
and the roman empire lasted over a thousand years. which says absolutely fuckall of its ethos.
i'm a libertarian commy, no gov't . the USSR was a disaster throughout. as is the US empire. as was the roman/mongolian/chinese/and every single empire in the history of empires. and empires fall, eventually.
I was able to get 2nd row @ the Champaign, IL show back in April of '03, just after the band was taking heat for "Bushleager." I had a custom made T-shirt w/ "Bushbacker" on the back and "Conservatives have feelings too" on the front. The girls in the front row ahead of me got Ed's attention during the bridge of "Alive," and we showed him my shirt. Ed got a big smile and gave me a thumbs up.
The point of this whole mess is give a damn, don't stay on the side-lines and criticize others while not having a well found factual point of your own.
He who casts stones in a glass house...
Game on brandon10...and I'm "Wicked Smart" and have shot down much bigger fish than your lame un-founded takes a long time ago. Bring IT!
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
And (I can't believe I'm bout to say this) but your point about empires falling is excatly what scares the hell outta me. As the US economy falters, China continues to gain momentum.
Commy wrote:
"...and every single empire in the history of empires. and empires fall, eventually."
Point, counter point, that's they way it works...
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
are you serious??
first, i backed up everything i said about some factory farms in the US, the problem with people like you is it's all or none. someone says something about factory farming and even when they state that you take it as saying 100% of US farms are like this!!
are you honestly saying the NY Times made the story up as did those other links? riiiiiiiight, that must be why an international tribunal took up 1 of the cases :roll:
i just want to get this straight....when the NY Times reports
you are claiming they made this up??
when the raw story writes
you are saying this is a fabricated statement??
i suppose you are claiming the raw story made the CNN video stating he has no terrorist links and members of Congress apologized to him themselves?
or are you gonna say CNN is uber liberal and communist so they are lying, too??
or what's probably closer to the truth is you didn't even bother to click on any of the links and look into it yourself
keep yer head in the sand, pal.
here's some more 'commy, socilaist sites' that i'm sure you will claim have some anti US agenda
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps ... 3U20091102
i'm sure the Canadian government just routinely hands that type of money out to anyone who makes some random claim, right? :roll:
http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200702/022807a.html
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/02/0 ... leahy.html
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
oh, i get it, if they say something you disagree with they aren't worth the time and are easily dismissable because they are super liberal but when they say something you agree with suddenly they are a valid source of information
:roll:
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
i'm sure he'd just claim they made Rumsfeld's statement up but before 9/11 Rumsfeld admitted that trillions were unaccounted for in the defense budget......he vowed to start an inquiry into where the $ went but then 9/11 happened and that plan got scrapped
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
not to mention how stupid it seems to make seeds that when they mature into plants don't reproduce any seeds.....yeah, let's make our food non-sustainable, makes perfect sense :roll:
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
After 9/11 Iraq was the target. And in we went.
Afghanistan. And in we went.
And don't forget Gulf War 1.