Fire brought down WTC 7

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  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Well whatever the percent it maybe doesn't even matter.

    Not everything in life is black and white. Not everything can always be specifically explained, but it also doesn't mean it's not normal or outlandish to occur. Irrational things occur, unexplained things occur and when they do, you can't simply jump 180% in the other direction. That is what this conspiracy is. Yes there are some questionable items in the occurence, but it doesn't mean the conspiracy is correct either.


    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    99.9%...

    That's a big claim. I think you're perhaps doing the same thing you're accusing the 0.1% of doing...

    There are many valid questions and points raised about 9/11. Many that also would in fact appear to deny some basic physical laws of this universe.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Well whatever the percent it maybe doesn't even matter.

    Not everything in life is black and white. Not everything can always be specifically explained, but it also doesn't mean it's not normal or outlandish to occur. Irrational things occur, unexplained things occur and when they do, you can't simply jump 180% in the other direction. That is what this conspiracy is. Yes there are some questionable items in the occurence, but it doesn't mean the conspiracy is correct either.

    I just want to know how fire somehow liquefied the steel. If extremely fundamental concepts do not add up the whole official story begins to fall apart rather quickly.

    “Tons of [molten metal] was found 21 days after the attack,” said Gage in an interview with a Vancouver, Canada television station. “Steel doesn’t begin to melt until 2,700 degrees, which is much hotter than what these fires could have caused.”

    So if the the fundamental laws of this universe are broken...then what? Keep believing the official story despite?

    doesn't sound rational to me...

    edit: almost forgot the WTC "meteorite" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbkl81qwEMA
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  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    the article is thinly-veiled support for the government-issue conspiracy side....
    They say nothing new in this study, except to debunk their own basement fire theory...oh, and deny that the floors collapsing (explosions?) made a 'boom'.

    Nice contradicions:
    article wrote:

    Scientists with the National Institute of Standards and Technology say their three-year investigation of the collapse determined the demise of WTC 7 was actually the first time in the world a fire caused the total failure of a skyscraper.

    .....earlier recommendations from their investigation into the collapse of the two large towers. In both instances, investigators concluded that extreme heat caused some steel beams to lose strength, causing further failures throughout the buildings until the entire structure succumbed.
    So....they saying fire weakened steel and caused the collapse of all three buildings...? wouldn't WTC7 then be the third skyscraper to collapse from fire....all within a few hours? They don't mention that coincidence...shoddy writing or intentionally misleading?


    I like this too:
    article wrote:
    Critics like Mike Berger of the group 9/11 Truth said he wasn't buying the government's explanation.

    "Their explanation simply isn't sufficient. We're being lied to," he said, arguing that there is other evidence suggesting explosives were used on the building..

    ....And not another sentence about the evidence, nor any argument from anyone with a different opinion. Fair, balanced reporting :rolleyes:

    article wrote:
    Hopefully this thorough report puts to rest the various 9/11 conspiracy theories, which dishonor the men and women who lost their lives on that terrible day," said Silverstein spokeswoman Dara McQuillen.

    FUCK YOU Larry, and fuck you Dara...the innocents killed (and the resulting political atmosphere) are the main reason people continue to look into this.
  • Red_Dot
    Red_Dot Posts: 1,454
    im a bit out of it here being in Australia. Could someone please explain to me the short version of why they think the Government did this?
    Take me for a ride before we leave...
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    M.G wrote:
    im a bit out of it here being in Australia. Could someone please explain to me the short version of why they think the Government did this?
    DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
    a building inhabited by the FBI, SEC, OEM, and the largest CIA office outside of langley
    It's all speculation beyond these facts.....so google it and draw your own conclusions (or wait for driftin to do it for you :p ). The SEC angle is particularly interesting.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    There are many valid questions and points raised about 9/11.
    exactly.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Because in 99.9% of the rational thinking world, people don't believe what you and many of these other CONSPIRACY THEORISTS have worked up.

    Secondly, if human remains are mixed in with the steel, it's hardous waste and you can't just leave that laying around somewhere... it could get people very sick.

    Also, it's very obvious that the people who do believe these conspiracy theories have no interest in finding out the truth... all they want to hear is information that backs their warped notions of reality. So for example, if Osama bin Laden and other high level Al Queda members were caught alive and gave full details about 9-11 and how they did it, all you conspiracy theorists would do is try and find some false or warped way to deny it so you could continue with some illusion of reality which you believe to be true.
    funny that you talked about a 'warped sense of reality', one that you share...
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,236
    spyguy wrote:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_go_ot/attacks_collapse

    Feds: Fires took down building next to twin towers

    Well I believe this wholeheartedly what the government is saying or trying to say. Maybe this is being said now because some are getting closer to the truth.

    However, It must be that fire for the first time in history in less than 24 hours take down a near 50 story building uniformly and at that speed. Wow, all 3 buildings on the same day simply amazing just simply amazing.

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  • brandon10
    brandon10 Posts: 1,114
    Two massive planes hit buildings in N.Y. Flew into them!!!? Seriously? What more do you need? I'm surprised more buildings didn't come down.
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    walden freeman wrote:
    As a career firefighter, I will say that WTC7 was a Type I building (as are 99% of highrise buildings) which is a "fire-resistant" building. However, do not let the term "fire-resistant" fool you. The actual building construction itself will not burn (glass, steel, and concrete themselves do not physically burn) however, the contents withing the building could burn at extremely high temperatures.

    Computers, synthetics (plastics, etc.), and various other office supplies can burn at up to 1,400. At 1,000 degrees, steel is too compromised to adequately support very much. At 1,100 degrees, steel will expand at a 74% ratio or 9 inches per foot. This means that if you have, for example, a 40 ft. beam of steel burning at 1,100 degrees for 10 minutes or so, you're going to have a 70 foot steel beam, which, will cause a lot of problems. Considering operations to put out fires were more or less abandoned as of the morning, and that the building had numerous broken windows on higher levels (where wind flowing through the building and even debris flying into the building would add more fuel for the fires to burn longer and uninterrupted), the idea of fire beings responsible for the collapse is quite plausible.

    Also, as for "pull it," there is no context as to how these terms were used. It could have been a batallion chief ordering a firefighter or officer to "pull" some firehose or "pull" a lever or "pull" the ignition on a saw or any other sort of fireground operation. I've been told to "push" and "pull" various "its" on various operations, and it's not unlikely that a command was simply thrown out. I am unable to watch the video so I'm not sure what exactly was going on, but, that's what I gathered from the responses.

    Basically, the firefighting community seems to split and somewhat opinionated on the subject, but I have noticed that a large majority of my fellow firefighters I have encountered agree with me that WTC7 as well as the Trade Towers themselves could have easily been dropped with a combination of the planes hitting the buildings and the subsequent fires. The "explosions" everyone claims to hear seem to just be the building's integrity giving way. Even small house collapses make a lot of noise and sometimes sound like explosions.

    wow.. that post was both accurate and sensible.

    what the fuck are you doing on the MT?

    i'm pretty sure it was Darth Vader who did it.
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    dunkman wrote:
    wow.. that post was both accurate and sensible.

    what the fuck are you doing on the MT?

    i'm pretty sure it was Darth Vader who did it.


    oh dunk you silly scotsman. you know vaders dead. and besides he lived in a galaxy far far away. :D
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  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    What about this?

    hmmm...

    um its a blog. scientific proof at its finest right
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    what i find interesting in these threads is the constant shots "truthers" have to take ...

    i know FOR A FACT that no one on this board can say for certain that the official story of 9/11 is 100% accurate nor can they tell me for certain that the towers and building 7 fell by the reasons given ... NO ONE ...

    yet - open discussion (which is what this forum is about) is made to be a farce by people who's only true foundation is that "they can't believe someone would do something like this" ...

    i'm sure the antagonism is a two-way street but for the people who come in and post nothing but "tin foil" hat comments - you serve no purpose other than to antagonize ...

    I am a rational person and I cannot for the life of me believe everything is what they say for a myriad of reasons that have been posted in these threads time and again ... i know a lot of people who are by no means looking for a conspiracy who think the whole story is fishy ... we're not talking about whether elvis is dead here ... we're talking about the an event that has precipitated the invasion and occupation of 2 sovereign countries resulting in mass death and suffering ...
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    polaris wrote:
    what i find interesting in these threads is the constant shots "truthers" have to take ...

    i know FOR A FACT that no one on this board can say for certain that the official story of 9/11 is 100% accurate nor can they tell me for certain that the towers and building 7 fell by the reasons given ... NO ONE ...

    yet - open discussion (which is what this forum is about) is made to be a farce by people who's only true foundation is that "they can't believe someone would do something like this" ...

    i'm sure the antagonism is a two-way street but for the people who come in and post nothing but "tin foil" hat comments - you serve no purpose other than to antagonize ...

    I am a rational person and I cannot for the life of me believe everything is what they say for a myriad of reasons that have been posted in these threads time and again ... i know a lot of people who are by no means looking for a conspiracy who think the whole story is fishy ... we're not talking about whether elvis is dead here ... we're talking about the an event that has precipitated the invasion and occupation of 2 sovereign countries resulting in mass death and suffering ...

    Well the problem with truthers is they usually take it too far. and almost always think they are 100% right. and are far too extreme in their approach, aka Alex douchebag Jones. open discussions need to happen and these reports need to be questioned, but the approach needs to be changed.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    spyguy wrote:
    Well the problem with truthers is they usually take it too far. and almost always think they are 100% right. and are far too extreme in their approach, aka Alex douchebag Jones. open discussions need to happen and these reports need to be questioned, but the approach needs to be changed.

    "douchebags" come in many forms ... the important thing is the message ... all i know is that the "truthers" are the ones who post links and points moreso then the "others" ...
  • BinFrog
    BinFrog MA Posts: 7,314
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    yeah...I melt pots on my gas stove whenever I cook all the time

    :rolleyes:


    I'd love to see your 1000+ degree stove.
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  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    As I previously stated, there are plenty of things that aren't easily explained or don't add up, but with tha said, these "truthers" fill in the unknowns with hearsay and half-truthes. If you breakdown the facts of the who, when, what, where, why and how of 9-11, the truthers have a loose string of unknown items that are given meaning and detail by their own admission... things like "pull it" which could relate to many, many things is adjusted to mean demolition because it fits their mold. They fill in the missing pieces with unknowns cause its the only thing they can use to somehow make their opinion have merit and legitimacy, but in reality, there's no such proof, just a loose string of unknowns. People love to talk about science and burning points of steel, etc.. but ignore that such things are possible because this isn't a generic example of merely lighting a fire under beam...there's tons of things that factor into the equation. My main point is these truthers see a puddle and call it an ocean... that's not realistic or logical. To make such accusations simply does not go hand in hand with the specific facts and details and aren't proven by any means other than their own opinions filling in missing pieces of what occured, which is why it's a conspiracy theory compared to specific fact or reality.
    polaris wrote:
    what i find interesting in these threads is the constant shots "truthers" have to take ...

    i know FOR A FACT that no one on this board can say for certain that the official story of 9/11 is 100% accurate nor can they tell me for certain that the towers and building 7 fell by the reasons given ... NO ONE ...

    yet - open discussion (which is what this forum is about) is made to be a farce by people who's only true foundation is that "they can't believe someone would do something like this" ...

    i'm sure the antagonism is a two-way street but for the people who come in and post nothing but "tin foil" hat comments - you serve no purpose other than to antagonize ...

    I am a rational person and I cannot for the life of me believe everything is what they say for a myriad of reasons that have been posted in these threads time and again ... i know a lot of people who are by no means looking for a conspiracy who think the whole story is fishy ... we're not talking about whether elvis is dead here ... we're talking about the an event that has precipitated the invasion and occupation of 2 sovereign countries resulting in mass death and suffering ...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    You maybe correct in that they post links and whatnot, but that certainly doesn't mean anything. The content and facts are whats important... anyone can make a video and put it on youtube or write a blog... doesn't make it legit.
    polaris wrote:
    "douchebags" come in many forms ... the important thing is the message ... all i know is that the "truthers" are the ones who post links and points moreso then the "others" ...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Smellyman2
    Smellyman2 Posts: 689
    polaris wrote:
    what i find interesting in these threads is the constant shots "truthers" have to take ...

    i know FOR A FACT that no one on this board can say for certain that the official story of 9/11 is 100% accurate nor can they tell me for certain that the towers and building 7 fell by the reasons given ... NO ONE ...

    yet - open discussion (which is what this forum is about) is made to be a farce by people who's only true foundation is that "they can't believe someone would do something like this" ...

    i'm sure the antagonism is a two-way street but for the people who come in and post nothing but "tin foil" hat comments - you serve no purpose other than to antagonize ...

    I am a rational person and I cannot for the life of me believe everything is what they say for a myriad of reasons that have been posted in these threads time and again ... i know a lot of people who are by no means looking for a conspiracy who think the whole story is fishy ... we're not talking about whether elvis is dead here ... we're talking about the an event that has precipitated the invasion and occupation of 2 sovereign countries resulting in mass death and suffering ...

    agreed

    I am not a conspiracy theorist or "truther", but for those mocking all the truthers, do you honestly believe the 9/11 commission, even though many on the commission, think it was a joke.??

    Do you believe the gov is telling us everything and on the up and up.


    I think there are waaaaayyyy too many unanswered questions.
  • BarkingDogs
    BarkingDogs Posts: 280
    brandon10 wrote:
    Two massive planes hit buildings in N.Y. Flew into them!!!? Seriously? What more do you need? I'm surprised more buildings didn't come down.

    Stop with the logic and common sense already....most people around here can't take it....Being a career firefighter and medic for over 20 years I would offer an explanation similiar to the firefighter that posted on the first page...but most people can't handle the truth....
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