some intelligent topic for you

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  • NoK
    NoK Posts: 824
    Also addressing the background of the thread.. how can one advocate democracy and yet belief in the use of torture? I don't understand that.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    NoK wrote:
    Also addressing the background of the thread.. how can one advocate democracy and yet belief in the use of torture? I don't understand that.


    Good point. Like I have been stating, how many of our principles do we have to sacrifice in the name of security.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    NoK wrote:
    Also addressing the background of the thread.. how can one advocate democracy and yet belief in the use of torture? I don't understand that.

    if the majority in the democracy vote for it, you could torture with ease ;)

    the reason this goes on is the people being held are not us citizens so they say the constitutional rights to jury trial, confronting witnesses, and bans on cruel and unusual punishment don't count. legally, it might be reasonable. morally, it's disgusting.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    my2hands wrote:
    the president was briefed in advance of this storm that it would cause massive damage and would be a cat 5 by time it hit the gulf coast. after being briefed on the coming destruction he goes on vacation, as does dick cheney. after it hits the president and cheney are no where to be found. thats right, during the worst natural disater in this countries history the president satyed on vacation and was not available at all. then he decides to go to a fund raiser in san diego, all while the city of new orleans is left alone to swim. he doesnt get on the ground of the gulf couast for more than 1 week after the initial destruction. not to mention his appointee to head FEMA the agency that takes the lead on massive national emergencies, had zero experience for the job. a criny appointed, which helped fuel a disgustingly poor response to this tragedy. for this alone mr bush should have been relieved of duty. for going awol during a time of natioanal emergency. but of course goign awol is nothing knew to this president
    like I said, there were fuck ups on all levels.
    my2hands wrote:
    what is it with you and this "dirty bomb attack"?
    becuase its possible and I dont want it happening. espeically in a place where I live which is easily a top 5 target.
    my2hands wrote:
    tlets stick with the facts. waterboarding has been defined by the international community as well as the USA. and it has been prosecuted as a war crime by the USA. period. end of story. and newsflash, if done wrong, it can cause death. because it is not simulated drowning, it is drowning.
    funny how no one was died from it huh?
    my2hands wrote:
    twhat about it? i dont even know how to respond to this ridiulous answer. it matters because the president of the united states and his administration openly used the lie time and time again to trick the american public into a horrific war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of injuries, and hundreds of thousands of refugees and people fleeing their native land. i think that is A BIG PROBLEM. i cant see how anyone thinking clearly would see it differently
    did they lie or actually believe WMDs were there. saddam did use them in the past remember? or you think bush and cheney knowingly sat in a room and said, ok lets lie and say there are WMDs there. intelligence gathering broke down somewhere and many people we set on going to war. 9/11 had just happened and bush probably thought he was going to protect the american people from taking this guy out.
    my2hands wrote:
    t um, yeah. i guess you dont see this as a problem. i guess you dont mind your leaders lying to you to justify a pre-emptive war by choice? give me a break.
    sure I see a problem with it. but I blame it on the break down of our intelligence agencies. they all fucked up
    my2hands wrote:
    tit just happened to be the single worst nomination for supreme court justice in the history of this country. i guess you see nothing worng with stocking the highest levels of government with cronies? again, give me a break
    thats just your opinion. seriously are you 12?
    my2hands wrote:
    t no need to bring up clinton, and no i did not like his pardons and i have never claimed to be a bog fan of slick willy's. the fact is scooter was found guilty in a court of law and was to sentenced to prison for outting a CIA agent. which i consider treason. again, i guess you have no problem with a president and his administration being above the law.
    pardoning is the biggest joke in american history. if you want to bring up bush then lets bring up all the criminals clinton pardoned.
    my2hands wrote:
    tnot a shocker. where have you been the last 6 years? do some research and get back to me.
    whats you beef with him? he has done nothing to me.
    my2hands wrote:
    tare you kidding? how about he actually leads during the crisis instaed of butt slapping with his pals.
    maybe you dont understand how politics work. friends are always given positions of power. you seem to think this is a new thing when bush started. bush was doing a photo opt with the cameras and tried to boost morale among the people in charge. you are way too blinded with hatred to think responsibly.
    my2hands wrote:
    ttypical political move... delay until your out of office. he will be "fixing: it by cutting much needed social programs and early education programs. great idea... their ideological plan is to bankrup the treasury so that they can force through their social cuts.
    so would you be more upset if he had NO plan? ok then shut the fuck up

    my2hands wrote:
    tfor a guy claiming to know something about the economy you still do not grasp the simplest of economic concepts. you do not cut taxes during a time of war. period. and no, tax cuts are not universally a good thing.
    I know alot more about the economy then you ever will, trust me on that robin hood. tax cuts have great benefit to the economy.

    my2hands wrote:
    task any scientist or professional in the medical industry... or any person with a disease that could have been cured, or could be cured. i think they will respond best on this one.
    its a morale issue. some actually disagree with your shit. learn to accept that.
    my2hands wrote:
    tthe partriot act completely wiped out every single one of your individual rights to privacy and serch and seizure. the cornerstones of american freedom. there is no justification for that. ever. period. we can talk about that all day, and you will lose badly. freedom is on my side brother.
    I'm still as free as the day I was born.
    my2hands wrote:
    tmaybe i read this wrong? please clarify. how was the mission accomplished?
    the mission at the time we to remove saddam from power. that mission was easily accomplished


    my2hands wrote:
    tthat was easier that buttering toast. bring it mr educated, so i can continue to help you see you have no clue what you are talking about

    dude what is it with you? you used to actually be cool. must be difficult to live with such a small cock.

    you are not better then me, remember that.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    NoK wrote:
    Also addressing the background of the thread.. how can one advocate democracy and yet belief in the use of torture? I don't understand that.

    the line has to be drawn somewhere. I hope torture is NEVER used by american forces.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    soulsinging wrote:
    theyre not all taken from terrorist camp in afghanistan. they pick up poor street vendors from pakistan, small business owners in dubai, etc. why? becos someone told the cia investigator that they had a cousin who had a friend who knew a guy in a camp who mentioned that said merchant once loaned him a few bucks... "we've got a terrorist financier!"

    Also in relentless night raids some fear for their lives, and are pressured so much to talk, (kids and wives screaming) that they rat out their (innocent) neighbors so they will be left alone to be seen as cooperating and gain immunity. They panic and drop a name. Pick someone you don't like and say their name. Presto.

    This torture racket , it's somewhat of a self supporting process. People say what they think people want to hear to seek relief. It's cyclical. Torture one guy to get a name to torture the next guy, and so on.

    Check out the Ghosts of Abu Ghraib documentary. It's quite the jaw dropper.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    theyre not all taken from terrorist camp in afghanistan. they pick up poor street vendors from pakistan, small business owners in dubai, etc. why? becos someone told the cia investigator that they had a cousin who had a friend who knew a guy in a camp who mentioned that said merchant once loaned him a few bucks... "we've got a terrorist financier!"

    prove to me any of this is true
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    my2hands wrote:
    some of our soldiers raped a 14 year old girl... murdered her and her family... then set fire to them all

    "terrorists" do not have a monopoly on low levels or disgusting acts

    so you would agree another attack such as 9/11 is justified?

    14 year old girls are raped almost daily here in america. world is a fucked up place.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    the line has to be drawn somewhere. I hope torture is NEVER used by american forces.


    But it is being employeed. CIA interrogators have used waterboarding on suspects.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    But it is being employeed. CIA interrogators have used waterboarding on suspects.

    from what I understand it has stopped no? and I'm still not all that sorry for that particular technique. in almost all cases, nothing happens. no one has ever died. its a mind fuck.

    pull out a fingernail, cut off a hand, then yes, I would consider leaving this country.
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    it is obvious...


    most people have no clue what is going on in the world around them



    i never thought i would see the day when Americans justified torture and the destruction of the bill of rights

    good job folks. keep flushing our country and ideals down the drain
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    my2hands wrote:
    it is obvious...

    most people have no clue what is going on in the world around them
    and you are one of them. maybe even the leader.
    my2hands wrote:
    i never thought i would see the day when Americans justified torture and the destruction of the bill of rights
    in preventing another 9/11 or wrose from happening sacrifices must be made. luckily we do not inflict bodily harm during the toughest of interrogations. and we are all still free people. great country we live in.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    from what I understand it has stopped no? and I'm still not all that sorry for that particular technique. in almost all cases, nothing happens. no one has ever died. its a mind fuck.

    pull out a fingernail, cut off a hand, then yes, I would consider leaving this country.

    The Khmer Rouge employed the technique at Tuol Sleng prison. Do you feel comfortable knowing that we have, or still do employee, the same interrogation technique as the Khmer Rouge. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to compare our government to that of Pol Pot's but I'm not very comfortable knowing that our government is employing the same technique as a brutal homicidal regime.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    The Khmer Rouge employed the technique at Tuol Sleng prison. Do you feel comfortable knowing that we have, or still do employee, the same interrogation technique as the Khmer Rouge. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to compare our government to that of Pol Pot's but I'm not very comfortable knowing that our government is employing the same technique as a brutal homicidal regime.

    but there's probably a big difference. if they prisoner didnt give information, he was most likely killed in a gruesome way. that has never happened in US captivity. even with the very man who planned 9/11.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    and you are one of them. maybe even the leader.

    in preventing another 9/11 or wrose from happening sacrifices must be made. luckily we do not inflict bodily harm during the toughest of interrogations. and we are all still free people. great country we live in.

    You are correct that no one has dies from waterboarding, but what happens if waterboarding is not enough. What happens when we justify the use of waterboarding as an acceptable method of interrogation all in the name of security? Who is to stop the government from then escalating it to electrocution or some other more deprived method of interrogation. Our government is well known for taking a mile when given an inch. Where is the line drawn or are we going to constantly going to allow our government to sacrifice principles just so we can feel safe.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    but there's probably a big difference. if they prisoner didnt give information, he was most likely killed in a gruesome way. that has never happened in US captivity. even with the very man who planned 9/11.

    Yet.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I stumbled across these charts about a week ago. It's alarming how quickly Islam has become the new enemy.

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism1.jpg

    Suprising that in 1997 Middle East terrorism against the US was on par with North America itself.

    (worth repeating)
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    mammasan wrote:
    The Khmer Rouge employed the technique at Tuol Sleng prison. Do you feel comfortable knowing that we have, or still do employee, the same interrogation technique as the Khmer Rouge. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to compare our government to that of Pol Pot's but I'm not very comfortable knowing that our government is employing the same technique as a brutal homicidal regime.


    It's really not so much what anyone in the US thinks but rather the rest of the world. That's where the real damage takes place imo.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    It's really not so much what anyone in the US thinks but rather the rest of the world. That's where the real damage takes place imo.

    see, sometimes we can agree.
  • Thecure
    Thecure Posts: 814
    NoK wrote:
    Also addressing the background of the thread.. how can one advocate democracy and yet belief in the use of torture? I don't understand that.

    i can't agree with you more. but to play devil's advocate, one can say that to be able to protect the people there are times inwhich you must decide that you have to do things that you don't want to save something that means alot.
    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

    If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
    - Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)

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