some intelligent topic for you

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

that is dead wrong. false accusations and convictions are made all the time, ESPECIALLY when there is mass public hysteria and paranoia. see the joe mccarthy communist hunt and the salem witch trials. people panic and turn on their neighbors out of fear or whatever else. there is no way everyone in american prisons as enemy combatants right now is guilty. in fact, i know personally people who have been in those prisons and investigated those people and they say overwhelmingly the people being held have done nothing at all remotely related to terrorism.

salem witch trails? jezuz.

yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.

jlew24asu

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I think with every new step into the minds of darkness the US loses a bit more of it's international reputation, and more people become wary of true intentions. Validated or not.

Stoop to the terrorist level (perceived or not) and you might as well be the terrorist.

It's a quick ride down, but along way up on that slippery slope.

so you admit terrorist exist and sink to low levels? well thats a start.

mammasan

jlew24asu wrote:

where are these experts? and how many attacks have been prevented? we dont have these answers.


grey area, no question about it.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cont/node/2601

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=96921&d=1&m=6&y=2007

http://www.amnestyusa.org/Reports_Statements_and_Issue_Briefs/Military_Intelligence_and_Law_Enforcement_Officers_Opposing_Torture/page.do?id=1031036&n1=3&n2=38&n3=1052

http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

Can you tell me how many attacks have been prevented because of information obtained through waterboarding, or other less than savory techniques imployed by us?

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

salem witch trails? jezuz.

yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.

yes, salem witch trials. im guessing you scoff becos you're using the tired "that was a long time ago" argument. so you going to laugh at what joe mccarthy did to innocent people on "suspicion" in the 50s? they ruined lives becos people turned on innocents to protect themselves or get back at enemies. same thing that's happening now.

this is not the case today though. the vast majority are innocent and that comes from people on the inside doing investigations. they are being swept up and their lives ruined becos people are afraid if they don't turn someone in and give the us what they want, THEY will be the ones in prison. and since the government does not have to ever bring charges against these people or show them a courtroom, they never have a chance to prove they're innocent and earn release. it is truly frightening what is being done.

but, even allowing your assumption that innocents are that rare, the other hypothetical still stands... what if your mother or father or brother or girlfriend or son was one of them? that's perfectly ok with you?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

jlew24asu wrote:

so you admit terrorist exist and sink to low levels? well thats a start.

There's a select portion of angry people in this world that are stuck on reacting. Rallying them and masses of new recruits all together in a unified cause against the West via flat out (extended) occupational war is not what I would call the best solution to a problem that happened one September morning.

I'd do think 99.5% of these guys would probably be most contented to be left alone to live out their their lives with their families, get some occasional action from the wife, play with the kids, and let the other .5% run around proving Darwin's theory on natural selection.

I don't think wants and desires are so different between peoples.

jlew24asu

mammasan wrote:

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cont/node/2601

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=96921&d=1&m=6&y=2007

http://www.amnestyusa.org/Reports_Statements_and_Issue_Briefs/Military_Intelligence_and_Law_Enforcement_Officers_Opposing_Torture/page.do?id=1031036&n1=3&n2=38&n3=1052

http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

Can you tell me how many attacks have been prevented because of information obtained through waterboarding, or other less than savory techniques imployed by us?

no I cant. I would bet that type of information isnt readily available on a google search. but attacks have been prevented. I have seen it on the news many times. whether or not waterboarding prevented it, I dont know.

mammasan

jlew24asu wrote:

salem witch trails? jezuz.

yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.

There is pretty good documentation that a good percentage of Iraqies held in Abu Ghraib(sp?) where held even though there was a lack of evidence that they where a threat.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/9/4670

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

yes, salem witch trials. im guessing you scoff becos you're using the tired "that was a long time ago" argument. so you going to laugh at what joe mccarthy did to innocent people on "suspicion" in the 50s? they ruined lives becos people turned on innocents to protect themselves or get back at enemies. same thing that's happening now.

this is not the case today though. the vast majority are innocent and that comes from people on the inside doing investigations. they are being swept up and their lives ruined becos people are afraid if they don't turn someone in and give the us what they want, THEY will be the ones in prison. and since the government does not have to ever bring charges against these people or show them a courtroom, they never have a chance to prove they're innocent and earn release. it is truly frightening what is being done.

how the fuck do you know that are all innocent?

soulsinging wrote:

but, even allowing your assumption that innocents are that rare, the other hypothetical still stands... what if your mother or father or brother or girlfriend or son was one of them? that's perfectly ok with you?

none of my family members have ever participated in anything hateful towards america. they have never been to afgahistani or pakistani training camps, or studied in madrases. so this bullshit example is useless.

my2hands

jlew24asu wrote:

KATRINA ---failure on all levels by hundreds of people. local, state, and federal. and the worst natural disaster our country has ever seen.

the president was briefed in advance of this storm that it would cause massive damage and would be a cat 5 by time it hit the gulf coast. after being briefed on the coming destruction he goes on vacation, as does dick cheney. after it hits the president and cheney are no where to be found. thats right, during the worst natural disater in this countries history the president satyed on vacation and was not available at all. then he decides to go to a fund raiser in san diego, all while the city of new orleans is left alone to swim. he doesnt get on the ground of the gulf couast for more than 1 week after the initial destruction. not to mention his appointee to head FEMA the agency that takes the lead on massive national emergencies, had zero experience for the job. a criny appointed, which helped fuel a disgustingly poor response to this tragedy. for this alone mr bush should have been relieved of duty. for going awol during a time of natioanal emergency. but of course goign awol is nothing knew to this president

TORTURE--- used in the past on very few individuals. should never be done again unless to thwart off a dirty bomb attack. (and some may argue waterboarding isnt even torture) its more of a bad mind fuck that physical harm. it leave zero physical affects. if we were chopping off fingers you'd have a better case.

what is it with you and this "dirty bomb attack"? lets stick with the facts. waterboarding has been defined by the international community as well as the USA as torture. and it has been prosecuted as a war crime by the USA. period. end of story. and newsflash, if done wrong, it can cause death. because it is not simulated drowning, it is drowning.

LIES ABOUT WMD---what about it? If Iraq is a success, as the thread starter is suggesting, this will be long forgotten. WMD was more false information from the people around bush (cheney, slam dunk guy, etc) then bush himself. but the buck stops with him.

what about it? i dont even know how to respond to this ridiulous answer. it matters because the president of the united states and his administration openly used the lie time and time again to trick the american public into a horrific war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of injuries, and hundreds of thousands of refugees and people fleeing their native land. i think that is A BIG PROBLEM. i cant see how anyone thinking clearly would see it differently

9/11/IRAQ CONNECTION--- more lies to go to war? more from the cheney machine

um, yeah. i guess you dont see this as a problem. i guess you dont mind your leaders lying to you to justify a pre-emptive war by choice? give me a break.

HARRIET MYERS---what about her?

it just happened to be the single worst nomination for supreme court justice in the history of this country. i guess you see nothing worng with stocking the highest levels of government with cronies? again, give me a break

SCOOTER LIBBY PARDON --- ha you want to talk about pardons? we'll talk about clintons pardons and see if you agree with those

no need to bring up clinton, and no i did not like his pardons and i have never claimed to be a bog fan of slick willy's. the fact is scooter was found guilty in a court of law and was to sentenced to prison for outting a CIA agent. which i consider treason. again, i guess you have no problem with a president and his administration being above the law.

ALBERTO GONZALEZ--- dont know much about him

not a shocker. where have you been the last 6 years? do some research and get back to me.

GOOD JOB BROWNIE--- bush trying to build morale during the worst natural disaster in american history.

are you kidding? how about he actually leads during the crisis instaed of butt slapping with his pals.

RECORD DEFICIT--- he has a plan to reduce it. time will tell if it works

typical political move... delay until your out of office. he will be "fixing: it by cutting much needed social programs and early education programs. great idea... their ideological plan is to bankrup the treasury so that they can force through their social cuts.

tax cuts are good.

for a guy claiming to know something about the economy you still do not grasp the simplest of economic concepts. you do not cut taxes during a time of war. period. and no, tax cuts are not universally a good thing.

STEM CELL RESEACRH--- these are just from your far left views. newsflash ****people are allowed to disagree with you

ask any scientist or professional in the medical industry... or any person with a disease that could have been cured, or could be cured. i think they will respond best on this one.

all are a direct result of 9/11. some see it as a way of protecting us from that happening again, some dont. (see newsflash)

the partriot act completely wiped out every single one of your individual rights to privacy and serch and seizure. the cornerstones of american freedom. there is no justification for that. ever. period. we can talk about that all day, and you will lose badly. freedom is on my side brother.

tommy franks idea. and the mission, at the time, was accomplished.

maybe i read this wrong? please clarify. how was the mission accomplished?



that was easier that buttering toast. bring it mr educated, so i can continue to help you see you have no clue what you are talking about

jlew24asu

mammasan wrote:

There is pretty good documentation that a good percentage of Iraqies held in Abu Ghraib(sp?) where held even though there was a lack of evidence that they where a threat.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/9/4670

I'm not talking about in Iraq. thats a war zone and fucked up shit happens. its hard to justify much of what has gone on there over the years.

I'm only talking about hardened proven el queda members taken from the training camps of Afghanistan.

NoK

jlew24asu wrote:

none of my family members have ever participated in anything hateful towards america. they have never been to afgahistani or pakistani training camps, or studied in madrases. so this bullshit example is useless.

First, you are just avoiding to answer the question. Second, not all terrorism comes from afghani or pakistani training camps. Third, what you say is bullshit because some people being tortured have never participated in anything hateful towards America either.

my2hands

mammasan wrote:

There is no need to insult someone simply because you don't share their views.

naive and uninformed is not an insult. it was the truth


he said no one ever ends up on a waterboarding table for no good reason

that is just ridiculous. period.

mammasan

jlew24asu wrote:

no I cant. I would bet that type of information isnt readily available on a google search. but attacks have been prevented. I have seen it on the news many times. whether or not waterboarding prevented it, I dont know.

I'm pretty sure that with all the controversy over waterboarding, had any of those attacks been thwarted because of information obtained during a waterboarding interrogation , the administration would have leaked recordings to the major media outlets right away. But that is just my assumption. The truth is we do not know how many or if any of the prevented attacks where stopped becausde of information obtained through torture. What information we do have is the opinions of professionals who have served in the armed forces and intelligence community, who have come out against torture as a reliable means of obtaining intelligence. It's my opinion that these individuals whould have more knowledge on the subject than you, myself, or anyone else on this message board.

my2hands

jlew24asu wrote:

salem witch trails? jezuz.

yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.

i dont care

this is just flat out naive. that is not an insult. it is the truth. so say what you will


humans make mistakes. not being able to admit that is just naive. period.

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

how the fuck do you know that are all innocent?

i didn't say all, i said many. it's a lot great than .00001% of the people being rounded up. i know becos, like i said, i have spoken to people who did the investigations of these detainees.

jlew24asu wrote:

none of my family members have ever participated in anything hateful towards america. they have never been to afgahistani or pakistani training camps, or studied in madrases. so this bullshit example is useless.

that is my point. a large number of the people being held now have never participated in anything hateful, been to terror camp, or anything else either. so just becos they're not a member of your family, it's ok to make these innocent people suffer? if you're muslim, you're fair game? it only becomes morally reprehensible if they start collecting white christians that might be related to you? then you might consider reevaluating it?

my2hands

jlew24asu wrote:

so you admit terrorist exist and sink to low levels? well thats a start.

some of our soldiers raped a 14 year old girl... murdered her and her family... then set fire to them all

"terrorists" do not have a monopoly on low levels or disgusting acts

mammasan

jlew24asu wrote:

I'm not talking about in Iraq. thats a war zone and fucked up shit happens. its hard to justify much of what has gone on there over the years.

I'm only talking about hardened proven el queda members taken from the training camps of Afghanistan.

Even if it was Osama Bin Laden himself, I would not condone the use of torture to extract information simply because the information is probably not reliable.

Even if we knew that the information would be 100% reliable, as I stated before, where do we draw the line. The last thing I would want is another attack like 9/11 where thousands would loose their lives, but at what cost to we do that. It's an extremely slippery slope we are on and it's extremely easy to just slide all the way down to the bottom but a lot harder to climb back up.

mammasan

my2hands wrote:

naive and uninformed is not an insult. it was the truth


he said no one ever ends up on a waterboarding table for no good reason

that is just ridiculous. period.

It's is a ridiculous statement but calling someone niave and misinformed is still insulting them. That's the reason why civilized debate spirals downward to childish bickering. Let's keep everything civil, the debate is much more exciting and informative that way.

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

I'm not talking about in Iraq. thats a war zone and fucked up shit happens. its hard to justify much of what has gone on there over the years.

I'm only talking about hardened proven el queda members taken from the training camps of Afghanistan.

theyre not all taken from terrorist camp in afghanistan. they pick up poor street vendors from pakistan, small business owners in dubai, etc. why? becos someone told the cia investigator that they had a cousin who had a friend who knew a guy in a camp who mentioned that said merchant once loaned him a few bucks... "we've got a terrorist financier!"

RolandTD20Kdrummer

I stumbled across these charts about a week ago. It's alarming how quickly Islam has become the new enemy.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism2.jpg

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism1.jpg