but are these people a real army? countries used to put on a uniform, fight and die.
we give them geneva convention rights, when they don't deserve it.
the are cowards that target innocents. blow men, women and children up.
no "hate crimes" for them right?
I agree that they are less than human for the acts of violence they commit but just because they are that way doesn't mean that we have to lower ourselves to those standards. We are a country founded upon certain principles and we shouldn't have to forfeit those principles simply because of the savagry of the people we are fighting.
Further more, many professionals from within the military and intelligence community have come out against waterboarding, or any other type of torture. They have also stated that informtion obtained from these methods is usually very unreliable. So not only are we forfeiting our principles but we are doing it for nothing.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
you obviously havnt been following my posts. never under no circumstances do I accept the government sending people to other countries to get tortured. speaking of, where is the outcry for countries who actually DO torture and 50 times worse then waterboarding. seems to be ok, cuz its not us.
i'd raise the outcry. but we don't control those countries. we do control our policies. and i think just becos they do it is not good reason for us to do it. i miss the america that used to lead by example instead of just brute force and being the biggest guy on the block.
i'd raise the outcry. but we don't control those countries. we do control our policies. and i think just becos they do it is not good reason for us to do it. i miss the america that used to lead by example instead of just brute force and being the biggest guy on the block.
Well said. We are supposed to be this beacon of democracy and example by which others should follow. Hopefully within my lifetime we can return to that.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Well said. We are supposed to be this beacon of democracy and example by which others should follow. Hopefully within my lifetime we can return to that.
That hate us for many reasons and just because they hate us doesn't mean that we have to act any differently. I don't want this country to shape up just so some whacked out fundamentalist will start liking us. I want this country to straight up because I believe in the core principles this country was founded on. I love my country and am proud of being an American but I am not proud of our government's actions and how they have tarnish our image.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
not true. the usa was widely admired and respected up until about the 1960's when we let the success we were blessed with during world ward 2 and its aftermath go to our heads. america was a beacon of hope and leadership in a very confused and dark time. we may not have won world war 2, but we inspired more hope than anyone else in doing it. once that altruism gave way to paternalism, people started to turn on us. hell, the world was with us on sept 11. the entire international community was once again prepared to support the united states in taking a unified stand on international terrorism. we squandered that good will though. we could have it back and it wouldn't be hard. we just have to show them through our actions that america does stand for the ideals we've always espoused: equality, freedom, and opportunity. torturing people without trial and unilateral invasions is not the way to do that. we have gone from "speak softly and carry a big stick" to "brag loudly and carry a sawed off shotgun."
I agree that they are less than human for the acts of violence they commit....
You guys seem to be confused about what is and is not human.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
If you mean "civil", then be advised that what is and is not "civil" is a determination of the majority or by antiquity and does not convey fact, but opinion.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I actually heard violins softly playing in the background when I read this.
hehe
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
i'd raise the outcry. but we don't control those countries. we do control our policies. and i think just becos they do it is not good reason for us to do it. i miss the america that used to lead by example instead of just brute force and being the biggest guy on the block.
yea I agree. I'm all for less involvement around the world. lets bring them all home, protect our borders and focus on the greatest of america. be a shining example of a place where dreams can come true.
sad thing is, we were attacked. we were attacked by an enemy with no borders. an enemy that blends into populations around the world. is that justification for going into Iraq? no absolutely not. but reason to stay and fight them? maybe so.
I actually heard violins softly playing in the background when I read this.
hehe
sounds funny but he is right. conservative Islam hates everything about the west. we listen to music, have fun, love and respect women, are free to worship whomever or whatever we want. everything is pretty much the exact opposite of what they believe. we are devils in their eyes. throw in a group of jews with our same ideals who lay claim to part of the holy land and poof, an enemy worth martyrdoming yourself against is born.
sounds funny but he is right. conservative Islam hates everything about the west. we listen to music, have fun, love and respect women, are free to worship whomever or whatever we want. everything is pretty much the exact opposite of what they believe. we are devils in their eyes. throw in a group of jews with our same ideals who lay claim to part of the holy land and poof, an enemy worth martyrdoming yourself against is born.
Conservative Christianity hates all that stuff too.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
60 years ago we sentenced a Japanese soldier to 15 years in prison for waterboarding a US soldier. 30 years ago we condemned a government for using the same method against it's own citizens. 20 years ago we stated in all of our intelligence and military interrogation manuels that this form of interrogation was not to be used because of it's deprived nature. Now we want to use it and don't want to classify it as torture. The progression is pretty obvious to me. The next step is using some other form of depraved method of interrogation and once again drapping it in the American flag and calling it protecting our security.
If you, or anyone else, is willing to sell your soul and principles to feel safe fine with me. I however will not. I would rather die in a free country that upholds certain principles than live in one without freedoms that would easly cast off principles for temporary safety.
In my opinion this makes us no better than the savages who would stone a woman to death simply because she showned to much of her face in public.
Sometime around 70 A.D. when the myth of Christianity was crafted.
The worst of it for you fundamentalist types is that you have poor, hypocritcal representation. Like Ted Faggart and Kent Hovind.
EDIT: Typo, sorry, should be Ted Faggard
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
you didnt just call me a fundamentalist did you? yikes.
first off, you would agree that america and the "west" is predominately christian. hell even conservative Christian.
I said Isalm hates that we listen to music, have fun, love and respect women, are free to worship whomever or whatever we want.
you say conservative Christianity hates the same things? and you ball warmer buddy 2hands agrees?
what planet are you on?
The way I saw it, you must be a fundamentalist if you don't see the irony of it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The way I saw it, you must be a fundamentalist if you don't see the irony of it.
much like yourself, I dont care for religion, although I do have some beliefs. but no I see no irony. you seem like a smart guy sometimes. when I said is completely true about Islam and completely not true about christianity.
but even when someone claims the very existence of god, you will dub them a fundamentalist. talking to you about anything religion related is a big waste of time.
The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition), 1992 Republican National Convention
The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition), 1992 Republican National Convention
Haha, well I'd agree with the first sentence. It's not about equal rights for women, it's about more rights, even to privledged status.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
much like yourself, I dont care for religion, although I do have some beliefs. but no I see no irony. you seem like a smart guy sometimes. when I said is completely true about Islam and completely not true about christianity.
but even when someone claims the very existence of god, you will dub them a fundamentalist. talking to you about anything religion related is a big waste of time.
a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
The way you guys are talking about human nature, I'd say you are fundamentalists. You believe that humans have a fundamental nature, a set of principles which guides their behavior.
On another note, I was watching Mirv Griffin's Crossword and one of the clues was "A Historic Bethlehem..." something or other, and the answer was "Inn" the host stated "Mary and Jospeh could not go to the Inn". To me, that's not a historic event, that's a mythical event. Even if it's widely accepted that Jesus was a historic character, doesn't mean it's true, but also doesn't mean by proxy that the case of Joseph, Mary and the Inn was also true. Some events in the Bible are factually not true, such as Noah and the great flood. It doesn't matter that there is coroborating evidence, since the Sumerians wrote of a global flood centuries before the Christian account. It is factually wrong, so how do we determine what is and isn't historically true?
I wouldn't call someone believing in God a fundamentalist. A clone, drone, doppleganger, zombie, or sheep; maybe.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition), 1992 Republican National Convention
How can you respect a religion that forces women into polygamous marriages, mutilates their genitals, forbids them to drive cars and subjects them to the humiliation of "instant" divorce?
a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
The way you guys are talking about human nature, I'd say you are fundamentalists. You believe that humans have a fundamental nature, a set of principles which guides their behavior.
On another note, I was watching Mirv Griffin's Crossword and one of the clues was "A Historic Bethlehem..." something or other, and the answer was "Inn" the host stated "Mary and Jospeh could not go to the Inn". To me, that's not a historic event, that's a mythical event. Even if it's widely accepted that Jesus was a historic character, doesn't mean it's true, but also doesn't mean by proxy that the case of Joseph, Mary and the Inn was also true. Some events in the Bible are factually not true, such as Noah and the great flood. It doesn't matter that there is coroborating evidence, since the Sumerians wrote of a global flood centuries before the Christian account. It is factually wrong, so how do we determine what is and isn't historically true?
I wouldn't call someone believing in God a fundamentalist. A clone, drone, doppleganger, zombie, or sheep; maybe.
yea yea yea. and when you die nothing happens. i'm not talking religion with you. its like a blind guy watching a silent movie. neither of us will get much out of it.
we are only talking about waterboarding which I'm not so sure I would even consider torture. and this would only happen at the highest levels of el queda like kalid shiek mohammand. there was a plot by a group of people last year to blow up the sears tower. waterboarding wasnt used. information was gathered and the attack was prevented.
I would only see it acceptable to use something like waterboarding in extreme cases. like a plot to have 4 planes slam into some of our greatest structures or a dirty bomb plot.
It doesn't really matter what you consider it...I believe you would be in the minority of people with any understanding of the technique. Do you really understand what it is? It is, by every definition, torture:
Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against
The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture
Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention
Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention:
Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture
18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2) http://beta.waterboarding.org/torture
Click around that site a bit and tell me if it changes your opinion on it's brutality and how (in)effective it is.....a point made is that it is actually the PERFECT torture technique, in part because it can repeatedly bring someone to the brink of death without leaving a trace of evidence or lasting damage. So condoning it's use at any level sends a pretty sadistic message to the grunts, dontcha think? Not to mention the impression it leaves on the international community.
you obviously havnt been following my posts. never under no circumstances do I accept the government sending people to other countries to get tortured. speaking of, where is the outcry for countries who actually DO torture and 50 times worse then waterboarding. seems to be ok, cuz its not us.
It IS you! Waterboarding is torture. It would be fucking horrible...read the first hand accounts, and literal description of how it works on that site. I can't imagine anything being 50 times worse. Not even like, 12 times worse.
Where is the outcry? If you won't lead us, who will?* :rolleyes: The US is purposely having people tortured in other countries...why are you falling back on anti-Americanism? I never said anything to suggest that it's ok for anyone to torture anyone. I'm saying the opposite.
*answer: it doesn't matter who leads anything in protest of US actions, the current admin has done whateverthefuck they want for years, that's the legacy
yea I agree. I'm all for less involvement around the world. lets bring them all home, protect our borders and focus on the greatest of america. be a shining example of a place where dreams can come true.
sad thing is, we were attacked. we were attacked by an enemy with no borders. an enemy that blends into populations around the world. is that justification for going into Iraq? no absolutely not. but reason to stay and fight them? maybe so.
that's the thing, i don't think we're fighting them in iraq. we were in afghanistan and i was 100% on board with that. hell, most of the rest of the world was too. iraq... not so much. hell, most of the islamic fanatics thought saddam one step from a heathen. we should have stuck to our guns and cleaned out afghanistan and pakistan. then we could have told iran and saudi arabia they were next if they don't fall the fuck in line.
Comments
i'm not
but are these people a real army? countries used to put on a uniform, fight and die.
we give them geneva convention rights, when they don't deserve it.
the are cowards that target innocents. blow men, women and children up.
no "hate crimes" for them right?
I agree that they are less than human for the acts of violence they commit but just because they are that way doesn't mean that we have to lower ourselves to those standards. We are a country founded upon certain principles and we shouldn't have to forfeit those principles simply because of the savagry of the people we are fighting.
Further more, many professionals from within the military and intelligence community have come out against waterboarding, or any other type of torture. They have also stated that informtion obtained from these methods is usually very unreliable. So not only are we forfeiting our principles but we are doing it for nothing.
i'd raise the outcry. but we don't control those countries. we do control our policies. and i think just becos they do it is not good reason for us to do it. i miss the america that used to lead by example instead of just brute force and being the biggest guy on the block.
Well said. We are supposed to be this beacon of democracy and example by which others should follow. Hopefully within my lifetime we can return to that.
but they hate us no matter how decent we are.
That hate us for many reasons and just because they hate us doesn't mean that we have to act any differently. I don't want this country to shape up just so some whacked out fundamentalist will start liking us. I want this country to straight up because I believe in the core principles this country was founded on. I love my country and am proud of being an American but I am not proud of our government's actions and how they have tarnish our image.
not true. the usa was widely admired and respected up until about the 1960's when we let the success we were blessed with during world ward 2 and its aftermath go to our heads. america was a beacon of hope and leadership in a very confused and dark time. we may not have won world war 2, but we inspired more hope than anyone else in doing it. once that altruism gave way to paternalism, people started to turn on us. hell, the world was with us on sept 11. the entire international community was once again prepared to support the united states in taking a unified stand on international terrorism. we squandered that good will though. we could have it back and it wouldn't be hard. we just have to show them through our actions that america does stand for the ideals we've always espoused: equality, freedom, and opportunity. torturing people without trial and unilateral invasions is not the way to do that. we have gone from "speak softly and carry a big stick" to "brag loudly and carry a sawed off shotgun."
edit - i actually agree with you for the most part
You guys seem to be confused about what is and is not human.
let us bask in the light!
do tell us what we're missing
Everything a human does is human.
If you mean "civil", then be advised that what is and is not "civil" is a determination of the majority or by antiquity and does not convey fact, but opinion.
I actually heard violins softly playing in the background when I read this.
hehe
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
yea I agree. I'm all for less involvement around the world. lets bring them all home, protect our borders and focus on the greatest of america. be a shining example of a place where dreams can come true.
sad thing is, we were attacked. we were attacked by an enemy with no borders. an enemy that blends into populations around the world. is that justification for going into Iraq? no absolutely not. but reason to stay and fight them? maybe so.
sounds funny but he is right. conservative Islam hates everything about the west. we listen to music, have fun, love and respect women, are free to worship whomever or whatever we want. everything is pretty much the exact opposite of what they believe. we are devils in their eyes. throw in a group of jews with our same ideals who lay claim to part of the holy land and poof, an enemy worth martyrdoming yourself against is born.
Conservative Christianity hates all that stuff too.
post of the day
2nd best post of the day...
are you kidding? since when?
circle jerk cheerleading post of the day.
Sometime around 70 A.D. when the myth of Christianity was crafted.
The worst of it for you fundamentalist types is that you have poor, hypocritcal representation. Like Ted Faggart and Kent Hovind.
EDIT: Typo, sorry, should be Ted Faggard
you didnt just call me a fundamentalist did you? yikes.
first off, you would agree that america and the "west" is predominately christian. hell even conservative Christian.
I said Isalm hates that we listen to music, have fun, love and respect women, are free to worship whomever or whatever we want.
you say conservative Christianity hates the same things? and you ball warmer buddy 2hands agrees?
what planet are you on?
The way I saw it, you must be a fundamentalist if you don't see the irony of it.
much like yourself, I dont care for religion, although I do have some beliefs. but no I see no irony. you seem like a smart guy sometimes. when I said is completely true about Islam and completely not true about christianity.
but even when someone claims the very existence of god, you will dub them a fundamentalist. talking to you about anything religion related is a big waste of time.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Feminism
Haha, well I'd agree with the first sentence. It's not about equal rights for women, it's about more rights, even to privledged status.
a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
The way you guys are talking about human nature, I'd say you are fundamentalists. You believe that humans have a fundamental nature, a set of principles which guides their behavior.
On another note, I was watching Mirv Griffin's Crossword and one of the clues was "A Historic Bethlehem..." something or other, and the answer was "Inn" the host stated "Mary and Jospeh could not go to the Inn". To me, that's not a historic event, that's a mythical event. Even if it's widely accepted that Jesus was a historic character, doesn't mean it's true, but also doesn't mean by proxy that the case of Joseph, Mary and the Inn was also true. Some events in the Bible are factually not true, such as Noah and the great flood. It doesn't matter that there is coroborating evidence, since the Sumerians wrote of a global flood centuries before the Christian account. It is factually wrong, so how do we determine what is and isn't historically true?
I wouldn't call someone believing in God a fundamentalist. A clone, drone, doppleganger, zombie, or sheep; maybe.
what is this garbage? this somehow means conservative christians hate women?
feminism has nothing to do with women's rights. damn I have worked you all day.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/ruqaiyyah09.htm
How can you respect a religion that forces women into polygamous marriages, mutilates their genitals, forbids them to drive cars and subjects them to the humiliation of "instant" divorce?
yea yea yea. and when you die nothing happens. i'm not talking religion with you. its like a blind guy watching a silent movie. neither of us will get much out of it.
It doesn't really matter what you consider it...I believe you would be in the minority of people with any understanding of the technique. Do you really understand what it is? It is, by every definition, torture:
Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against
The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture
Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention
Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention:
Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture
18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2)
http://beta.waterboarding.org/torture
Click around that site a bit and tell me if it changes your opinion on it's brutality and how (in)effective it is.....a point made is that it is actually the PERFECT torture technique, in part because it can repeatedly bring someone to the brink of death without leaving a trace of evidence or lasting damage. So condoning it's use at any level sends a pretty sadistic message to the grunts, dontcha think? Not to mention the impression it leaves on the international community.
It IS you! Waterboarding is torture. It would be fucking horrible...read the first hand accounts, and literal description of how it works on that site. I can't imagine anything being 50 times worse. Not even like, 12 times worse.
Where is the outcry? If you won't lead us, who will?* :rolleyes: The US is purposely having people tortured in other countries...why are you falling back on anti-Americanism? I never said anything to suggest that it's ok for anyone to torture anyone. I'm saying the opposite.
*answer: it doesn't matter who leads anything in protest of US actions, the current admin has done whateverthefuck they want for years, that's the legacy
that's the thing, i don't think we're fighting them in iraq. we were in afghanistan and i was 100% on board with that. hell, most of the rest of the world was too. iraq... not so much. hell, most of the islamic fanatics thought saddam one step from a heathen. we should have stuck to our guns and cleaned out afghanistan and pakistan. then we could have told iran and saudi arabia they were next if they don't fall the fuck in line.