that is dead wrong. false accusations and convictions are made all the time, ESPECIALLY when there is mass public hysteria and paranoia. see the joe mccarthy communist hunt and the salem witch trials. people panic and turn on their neighbors out of fear or whatever else. there is no way everyone in american prisons as enemy combatants right now is guilty. in fact, i know personally people who have been in those prisons and investigated those people and they say overwhelmingly the people being held have done nothing at all remotely related to terrorism.
salem witch trails? jezuz.
yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.
I think with every new step into the minds of darkness the US loses a bit more of it's international reputation, and more people become wary of true intentions. Validated or not.
Stoop to the terrorist level (perceived or not) and you might as well be the terrorist.
It's a quick ride down, but along way up on that slippery slope.
so you admit terrorist exist and sink to low levels? well thats a start.
Can you tell me how many attacks have been prevented because of information obtained through waterboarding, or other less than savory techniques imployed by us?
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.
yes, salem witch trials. im guessing you scoff becos you're using the tired "that was a long time ago" argument. so you going to laugh at what joe mccarthy did to innocent people on "suspicion" in the 50s? they ruined lives becos people turned on innocents to protect themselves or get back at enemies. same thing that's happening now.
this is not the case today though. the vast majority are innocent and that comes from people on the inside doing investigations. they are being swept up and their lives ruined becos people are afraid if they don't turn someone in and give the us what they want, THEY will be the ones in prison. and since the government does not have to ever bring charges against these people or show them a courtroom, they never have a chance to prove they're innocent and earn release. it is truly frightening what is being done.
but, even allowing your assumption that innocents are that rare, the other hypothetical still stands... what if your mother or father or brother or girlfriend or son was one of them? that's perfectly ok with you?
so you admit terrorist exist and sink to low levels? well thats a start.
There's a select portion of angry people in this world that are stuck on reacting. Rallying them and masses of new recruits all together in a unified cause against the West via flat out (extended) occupational war is not what I would call the best solution to a problem that happened one September morning.
I'd do think 99.5% of these guys would probably be most contented to be left alone to live out their their lives with their families, get some occasional action from the wife, play with the kids, and let the other .5% run around proving Darwin's theory on natural selection.
I don't think wants and desires are so different between peoples.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Can you tell me how many attacks have been prevented because of information obtained through waterboarding, or other less than savory techniques imployed by us?
no I cant. I would bet that type of information isnt readily available on a google search. but attacks have been prevented. I have seen it on the news many times. whether or not waterboarding prevented it, I dont know.
yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.
There is pretty good documentation that a good percentage of Iraqies held in Abu Ghraib(sp?) where held even though there was a lack of evidence that they where a threat.
yes, salem witch trials. im guessing you scoff becos you're using the tired "that was a long time ago" argument. so you going to laugh at what joe mccarthy did to innocent people on "suspicion" in the 50s? they ruined lives becos people turned on innocents to protect themselves or get back at enemies. same thing that's happening now.
this is not the case today though. the vast majority are innocent and that comes from people on the inside doing investigations. they are being swept up and their lives ruined becos people are afraid if they don't turn someone in and give the us what they want, THEY will be the ones in prison. and since the government does not have to ever bring charges against these people or show them a courtroom, they never have a chance to prove they're innocent and earn release. it is truly frightening what is being done.
but, even allowing your assumption that innocents are that rare, the other hypothetical still stands... what if your mother or father or brother or girlfriend or son was one of them? that's perfectly ok with you?
none of my family members have ever participated in anything hateful towards america. they have never been to afgahistani or pakistani training camps, or studied in madrases. so this bullshit example is useless.
KATRINA ---failure on all levels by hundreds of people. local, state, and federal. and the worst natural disaster our country has ever seen.
the president was briefed in advance of this storm that it would cause massive damage and would be a cat 5 by time it hit the gulf coast. after being briefed on the coming destruction he goes on vacation, as does dick cheney. after it hits the president and cheney are no where to be found. thats right, during the worst natural disater in this countries history the president satyed on vacation and was not available at all. then he decides to go to a fund raiser in san diego, all while the city of new orleans is left alone to swim. he doesnt get on the ground of the gulf couast for more than 1 week after the initial destruction. not to mention his appointee to head FEMA the agency that takes the lead on massive national emergencies, had zero experience for the job. a criny appointed, which helped fuel a disgustingly poor response to this tragedy. for this alone mr bush should have been relieved of duty. for going awol during a time of natioanal emergency. but of course goign awol is nothing knew to this president
TORTURE--- used in the past on very few individuals. should never be done again unless to thwart off a dirty bomb attack. (and some may argue waterboarding isnt even torture) its more of a bad mind fuck that physical harm. it leave zero physical affects. if we were chopping off fingers you'd have a better case.
what is it with you and this "dirty bomb attack"? lets stick with the facts. waterboarding has been defined by the international community as well as the USA as torture. and it has been prosecuted as a war crime by the USA. period. end of story. and newsflash, if done wrong, it can cause death. because it is not simulated drowning, it is drowning.
LIES ABOUT WMD---what about it? If Iraq is a success, as the thread starter is suggesting, this will be long forgotten. WMD was more false information from the people around bush (cheney, slam dunk guy, etc) then bush himself. but the buck stops with him.
what about it? i dont even know how to respond to this ridiulous answer. it matters because the president of the united states and his administration openly used the lie time and time again to trick the american public into a horrific war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of injuries, and hundreds of thousands of refugees and people fleeing their native land. i think that is A BIG PROBLEM. i cant see how anyone thinking clearly would see it differently
9/11/IRAQ CONNECTION--- more lies to go to war? more from the cheney machine
um, yeah. i guess you dont see this as a problem. i guess you dont mind your leaders lying to you to justify a pre-emptive war by choice? give me a break.
HARRIET MYERS---what about her?
it just happened to be the single worst nomination for supreme court justice in the history of this country. i guess you see nothing worng with stocking the highest levels of government with cronies? again, give me a break
SCOOTER LIBBY PARDON --- ha you want to talk about pardons? we'll talk about clintons pardons and see if you agree with those
no need to bring up clinton, and no i did not like his pardons and i have never claimed to be a bog fan of slick willy's. the fact is scooter was found guilty in a court of law and was to sentenced to prison for outting a CIA agent. which i consider treason. again, i guess you have no problem with a president and his administration being above the law.
ALBERTO GONZALEZ--- dont know much about him
not a shocker. where have you been the last 6 years? do some research and get back to me.
GOOD JOB BROWNIE--- bush trying to build morale during the worst natural disaster in american history.
are you kidding? how about he actually leads during the crisis instaed of butt slapping with his pals.
RECORD DEFICIT--- he has a plan to reduce it. time will tell if it works
typical political move... delay until your out of office. he will be "fixing: it by cutting much needed social programs and early education programs. great idea... their ideological plan is to bankrup the treasury so that they can force through their social cuts.
tax cuts are good.
for a guy claiming to know something about the economy you still do not grasp the simplest of economic concepts. you do not cut taxes during a time of war. period. and no, tax cuts are not universally a good thing.
STEM CELL RESEACRH--- these are just from your far left views. newsflash ****people are allowed to disagree with you
ask any scientist or professional in the medical industry... or any person with a disease that could have been cured, or could be cured. i think they will respond best on this one.
all are a direct result of 9/11. some see it as a way of protecting us from that happening again, some dont. (see newsflash)
the partriot act completely wiped out every single one of your individual rights to privacy and serch and seizure. the cornerstones of american freedom. there is no justification for that. ever. period. we can talk about that all day, and you will lose badly. freedom is on my side brother.
tommy franks idea. and the mission, at the time, was accomplished.
maybe i read this wrong? please clarify. how was the mission accomplished?
that was easier that buttering toast. bring it mr educated, so i can continue to help you see you have no clue what you are talking about
There is pretty good documentation that a good percentage of Iraqies held in Abu Ghraib(sp?) where held even though there was a lack of evidence that they where a threat.
none of my family members have ever participated in anything hateful towards america. they have never been to afgahistani or pakistani training camps, or studied in madrases. so this bullshit example is useless.
First, you are just avoiding to answer the question. Second, not all terrorism comes from afghani or pakistani training camps. Third, what you say is bullshit because some people being tortured have never participated in anything hateful towards America either.
no I cant. I would bet that type of information isnt readily available on a google search. but attacks have been prevented. I have seen it on the news many times. whether or not waterboarding prevented it, I dont know.
I'm pretty sure that with all the controversy over waterboarding, had any of those attacks been thwarted because of information obtained during a waterboarding interrogation , the administration would have leaked recordings to the major media outlets right away. But that is just my assumption. The truth is we do not know how many or if any of the prevented attacks where stopped becausde of information obtained through torture. What information we do have is the opinions of professionals who have served in the armed forces and intelligence community, who have come out against torture as a reliable means of obtaining intelligence. It's my opinion that these individuals whould have more knowledge on the subject than you, myself, or anyone else on this message board.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
i didn't say all, i said many. it's a lot great than .00001% of the people being rounded up. i know becos, like i said, i have spoken to people who did the investigations of these detainees.
none of my family members have ever participated in anything hateful towards america. they have never been to afgahistani or pakistani training camps, or studied in madrases. so this bullshit example is useless.
that is my point. a large number of the people being held now have never participated in anything hateful, been to terror camp, or anything else either. so just becos they're not a member of your family, it's ok to make these innocent people suffer? if you're muslim, you're fair game? it only becomes morally reprehensible if they start collecting white christians that might be related to you? then you might consider reevaluating it?
I'm not talking about in Iraq. thats a war zone and fucked up shit happens. its hard to justify much of what has gone on there over the years.
I'm only talking about hardened proven el queda members taken from the training camps of Afghanistan.
Even if it was Osama Bin Laden himself, I would not condone the use of torture to extract information simply because the information is probably not reliable.
Even if we knew that the information would be 100% reliable, as I stated before, where do we draw the line. The last thing I would want is another attack like 9/11 where thousands would loose their lives, but at what cost to we do that. It's an extremely slippery slope we are on and it's extremely easy to just slide all the way down to the bottom but a lot harder to climb back up.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
naive and uninformed is not an insult. it was the truth
he said no one ever ends up on a waterboarding table for no good reason
that is just ridiculous. period.
It's is a ridiculous statement but calling someone niave and misinformed is still insulting them. That's the reason why civilized debate spirals downward to childish bickering. Let's keep everything civil, the debate is much more exciting and informative that way.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I'm not talking about in Iraq. thats a war zone and fucked up shit happens. its hard to justify much of what has gone on there over the years.
I'm only talking about hardened proven el queda members taken from the training camps of Afghanistan.
theyre not all taken from terrorist camp in afghanistan. they pick up poor street vendors from pakistan, small business owners in dubai, etc. why? becos someone told the cia investigator that they had a cousin who had a friend who knew a guy in a camp who mentioned that said merchant once loaned him a few bucks... "we've got a terrorist financier!"
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Also addressing the background of the thread.. how can one advocate democracy and yet belief in the use of torture? I don't understand that.
if the majority in the democracy vote for it, you could torture with ease
the reason this goes on is the people being held are not us citizens so they say the constitutional rights to jury trial, confronting witnesses, and bans on cruel and unusual punishment don't count. legally, it might be reasonable. morally, it's disgusting.
the president was briefed in advance of this storm that it would cause massive damage and would be a cat 5 by time it hit the gulf coast. after being briefed on the coming destruction he goes on vacation, as does dick cheney. after it hits the president and cheney are no where to be found. thats right, during the worst natural disater in this countries history the president satyed on vacation and was not available at all. then he decides to go to a fund raiser in san diego, all while the city of new orleans is left alone to swim. he doesnt get on the ground of the gulf couast for more than 1 week after the initial destruction. not to mention his appointee to head FEMA the agency that takes the lead on massive national emergencies, had zero experience for the job. a criny appointed, which helped fuel a disgustingly poor response to this tragedy. for this alone mr bush should have been relieved of duty. for going awol during a time of natioanal emergency. but of course goign awol is nothing knew to this president
tlets stick with the facts. waterboarding has been defined by the international community as well as the USA. and it has been prosecuted as a war crime by the USA. period. end of story. and newsflash, if done wrong, it can cause death. because it is not simulated drowning, it is drowning.
twhat about it? i dont even know how to respond to this ridiulous answer. it matters because the president of the united states and his administration openly used the lie time and time again to trick the american public into a horrific war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of injuries, and hundreds of thousands of refugees and people fleeing their native land. i think that is A BIG PROBLEM. i cant see how anyone thinking clearly would see it differently
did they lie or actually believe WMDs were there. saddam did use them in the past remember? or you think bush and cheney knowingly sat in a room and said, ok lets lie and say there are WMDs there. intelligence gathering broke down somewhere and many people we set on going to war. 9/11 had just happened and bush probably thought he was going to protect the american people from taking this guy out.
t um, yeah. i guess you dont see this as a problem. i guess you dont mind your leaders lying to you to justify a pre-emptive war by choice? give me a break.
sure I see a problem with it. but I blame it on the break down of our intelligence agencies. they all fucked up
tit just happened to be the single worst nomination for supreme court justice in the history of this country. i guess you see nothing worng with stocking the highest levels of government with cronies? again, give me a break
t no need to bring up clinton, and no i did not like his pardons and i have never claimed to be a bog fan of slick willy's. the fact is scooter was found guilty in a court of law and was to sentenced to prison for outting a CIA agent. which i consider treason. again, i guess you have no problem with a president and his administration being above the law.
pardoning is the biggest joke in american history. if you want to bring up bush then lets bring up all the criminals clinton pardoned.
tare you kidding? how about he actually leads during the crisis instaed of butt slapping with his pals.
maybe you dont understand how politics work. friends are always given positions of power. you seem to think this is a new thing when bush started. bush was doing a photo opt with the cameras and tried to boost morale among the people in charge. you are way too blinded with hatred to think responsibly.
ttypical political move... delay until your out of office. he will be "fixing: it by cutting much needed social programs and early education programs. great idea... their ideological plan is to bankrup the treasury so that they can force through their social cuts.
so would you be more upset if he had NO plan? ok then shut the fuck up
tfor a guy claiming to know something about the economy you still do not grasp the simplest of economic concepts. you do not cut taxes during a time of war. period. and no, tax cuts are not universally a good thing.
I know alot more about the economy then you ever will, trust me on that robin hood. tax cuts have great benefit to the economy.
task any scientist or professional in the medical industry... or any person with a disease that could have been cured, or could be cured. i think they will respond best on this one.
its a morale issue. some actually disagree with your shit. learn to accept that.
tthe partriot act completely wiped out every single one of your individual rights to privacy and serch and seizure. the cornerstones of american freedom. there is no justification for that. ever. period. we can talk about that all day, and you will lose badly. freedom is on my side brother.
theyre not all taken from terrorist camp in afghanistan. they pick up poor street vendors from pakistan, small business owners in dubai, etc. why? becos someone told the cia investigator that they had a cousin who had a friend who knew a guy in a camp who mentioned that said merchant once loaned him a few bucks... "we've got a terrorist financier!"
Also in relentless night raids some fear for their lives, and are pressured so much to talk, (kids and wives screaming) that they rat out their (innocent) neighbors so they will be left alone to be seen as cooperating and gain immunity. They panic and drop a name. Pick someone you don't like and say their name. Presto.
This torture racket , it's somewhat of a self supporting process. People say what they think people want to hear to seek relief. It's cyclical. Torture one guy to get a name to torture the next guy, and so on.
Check out the Ghosts of Abu Ghraib documentary. It's quite the jaw dropper.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
theyre not all taken from terrorist camp in afghanistan. they pick up poor street vendors from pakistan, small business owners in dubai, etc. why? becos someone told the cia investigator that they had a cousin who had a friend who knew a guy in a camp who mentioned that said merchant once loaned him a few bucks... "we've got a terrorist financier!"
But it is being employeed. CIA interrogators have used waterboarding on suspects.
from what I understand it has stopped no? and I'm still not all that sorry for that particular technique. in almost all cases, nothing happens. no one has ever died. its a mind fuck.
pull out a fingernail, cut off a hand, then yes, I would consider leaving this country.
Comments
salem witch trails? jezuz.
yes innocent people will be victims from time to time. but in most 99.9%??? there is a very good reason why there are there.
so you admit terrorist exist and sink to low levels? well thats a start.
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cont/node/2601
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=96921&d=1&m=6&y=2007
http://www.amnestyusa.org/Reports_Statements_and_Issue_Briefs/Military_Intelligence_and_Law_Enforcement_Officers_Opposing_Torture/page.do?id=1031036&n1=3&n2=38&n3=1052
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/
Can you tell me how many attacks have been prevented because of information obtained through waterboarding, or other less than savory techniques imployed by us?
yes, salem witch trials. im guessing you scoff becos you're using the tired "that was a long time ago" argument. so you going to laugh at what joe mccarthy did to innocent people on "suspicion" in the 50s? they ruined lives becos people turned on innocents to protect themselves or get back at enemies. same thing that's happening now.
this is not the case today though. the vast majority are innocent and that comes from people on the inside doing investigations. they are being swept up and their lives ruined becos people are afraid if they don't turn someone in and give the us what they want, THEY will be the ones in prison. and since the government does not have to ever bring charges against these people or show them a courtroom, they never have a chance to prove they're innocent and earn release. it is truly frightening what is being done.
but, even allowing your assumption that innocents are that rare, the other hypothetical still stands... what if your mother or father or brother or girlfriend or son was one of them? that's perfectly ok with you?
There's a select portion of angry people in this world that are stuck on reacting. Rallying them and masses of new recruits all together in a unified cause against the West via flat out (extended) occupational war is not what I would call the best solution to a problem that happened one September morning.
I'd do think 99.5% of these guys would probably be most contented to be left alone to live out their their lives with their families, get some occasional action from the wife, play with the kids, and let the other .5% run around proving Darwin's theory on natural selection.
I don't think wants and desires are so different between peoples.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
no I cant. I would bet that type of information isnt readily available on a google search. but attacks have been prevented. I have seen it on the news many times. whether or not waterboarding prevented it, I dont know.
There is pretty good documentation that a good percentage of Iraqies held in Abu Ghraib(sp?) where held even though there was a lack of evidence that they where a threat.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/9/4670
how the fuck do you know that are all innocent?
none of my family members have ever participated in anything hateful towards america. they have never been to afgahistani or pakistani training camps, or studied in madrases. so this bullshit example is useless.
what is it with you and this "dirty bomb attack"? lets stick with the facts. waterboarding has been defined by the international community as well as the USA as torture. and it has been prosecuted as a war crime by the USA. period. end of story. and newsflash, if done wrong, it can cause death. because it is not simulated drowning, it is drowning.
what about it? i dont even know how to respond to this ridiulous answer. it matters because the president of the united states and his administration openly used the lie time and time again to trick the american public into a horrific war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of injuries, and hundreds of thousands of refugees and people fleeing their native land. i think that is A BIG PROBLEM. i cant see how anyone thinking clearly would see it differently
um, yeah. i guess you dont see this as a problem. i guess you dont mind your leaders lying to you to justify a pre-emptive war by choice? give me a break.
it just happened to be the single worst nomination for supreme court justice in the history of this country. i guess you see nothing worng with stocking the highest levels of government with cronies? again, give me a break
no need to bring up clinton, and no i did not like his pardons and i have never claimed to be a bog fan of slick willy's. the fact is scooter was found guilty in a court of law and was to sentenced to prison for outting a CIA agent. which i consider treason. again, i guess you have no problem with a president and his administration being above the law.
not a shocker. where have you been the last 6 years? do some research and get back to me.
are you kidding? how about he actually leads during the crisis instaed of butt slapping with his pals.
typical political move... delay until your out of office. he will be "fixing: it by cutting much needed social programs and early education programs. great idea... their ideological plan is to bankrup the treasury so that they can force through their social cuts.
for a guy claiming to know something about the economy you still do not grasp the simplest of economic concepts. you do not cut taxes during a time of war. period. and no, tax cuts are not universally a good thing.
ask any scientist or professional in the medical industry... or any person with a disease that could have been cured, or could be cured. i think they will respond best on this one.
the partriot act completely wiped out every single one of your individual rights to privacy and serch and seizure. the cornerstones of american freedom. there is no justification for that. ever. period. we can talk about that all day, and you will lose badly. freedom is on my side brother.
maybe i read this wrong? please clarify. how was the mission accomplished?
that was easier that buttering toast. bring it mr educated, so i can continue to help you see you have no clue what you are talking about
I'm not talking about in Iraq. thats a war zone and fucked up shit happens. its hard to justify much of what has gone on there over the years.
I'm only talking about hardened proven el queda members taken from the training camps of Afghanistan.
First, you are just avoiding to answer the question. Second, not all terrorism comes from afghani or pakistani training camps. Third, what you say is bullshit because some people being tortured have never participated in anything hateful towards America either.
naive and uninformed is not an insult. it was the truth
he said no one ever ends up on a waterboarding table for no good reason
that is just ridiculous. period.
I'm pretty sure that with all the controversy over waterboarding, had any of those attacks been thwarted because of information obtained during a waterboarding interrogation , the administration would have leaked recordings to the major media outlets right away. But that is just my assumption. The truth is we do not know how many or if any of the prevented attacks where stopped becausde of information obtained through torture. What information we do have is the opinions of professionals who have served in the armed forces and intelligence community, who have come out against torture as a reliable means of obtaining intelligence. It's my opinion that these individuals whould have more knowledge on the subject than you, myself, or anyone else on this message board.
i dont care
this is just flat out naive. that is not an insult. it is the truth. so say what you will
humans make mistakes. not being able to admit that is just naive. period.
i didn't say all, i said many. it's a lot great than .00001% of the people being rounded up. i know becos, like i said, i have spoken to people who did the investigations of these detainees.
that is my point. a large number of the people being held now have never participated in anything hateful, been to terror camp, or anything else either. so just becos they're not a member of your family, it's ok to make these innocent people suffer? if you're muslim, you're fair game? it only becomes morally reprehensible if they start collecting white christians that might be related to you? then you might consider reevaluating it?
some of our soldiers raped a 14 year old girl... murdered her and her family... then set fire to them all
"terrorists" do not have a monopoly on low levels or disgusting acts
Even if it was Osama Bin Laden himself, I would not condone the use of torture to extract information simply because the information is probably not reliable.
Even if we knew that the information would be 100% reliable, as I stated before, where do we draw the line. The last thing I would want is another attack like 9/11 where thousands would loose their lives, but at what cost to we do that. It's an extremely slippery slope we are on and it's extremely easy to just slide all the way down to the bottom but a lot harder to climb back up.
It's is a ridiculous statement but calling someone niave and misinformed is still insulting them. That's the reason why civilized debate spirals downward to childish bickering. Let's keep everything civil, the debate is much more exciting and informative that way.
theyre not all taken from terrorist camp in afghanistan. they pick up poor street vendors from pakistan, small business owners in dubai, etc. why? becos someone told the cia investigator that they had a cousin who had a friend who knew a guy in a camp who mentioned that said merchant once loaned him a few bucks... "we've got a terrorist financier!"
http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism2.jpg
http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism1.jpg
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Good point. Like I have been stating, how many of our principles do we have to sacrifice in the name of security.
if the majority in the democracy vote for it, you could torture with ease
the reason this goes on is the people being held are not us citizens so they say the constitutional rights to jury trial, confronting witnesses, and bans on cruel and unusual punishment don't count. legally, it might be reasonable. morally, it's disgusting.
becuase its possible and I dont want it happening. espeically in a place where I live which is easily a top 5 target.
funny how no one was died from it huh?
did they lie or actually believe WMDs were there. saddam did use them in the past remember? or you think bush and cheney knowingly sat in a room and said, ok lets lie and say there are WMDs there. intelligence gathering broke down somewhere and many people we set on going to war. 9/11 had just happened and bush probably thought he was going to protect the american people from taking this guy out.
sure I see a problem with it. but I blame it on the break down of our intelligence agencies. they all fucked up
thats just your opinion. seriously are you 12?
pardoning is the biggest joke in american history. if you want to bring up bush then lets bring up all the criminals clinton pardoned.
whats you beef with him? he has done nothing to me.
maybe you dont understand how politics work. friends are always given positions of power. you seem to think this is a new thing when bush started. bush was doing a photo opt with the cameras and tried to boost morale among the people in charge. you are way too blinded with hatred to think responsibly.
so would you be more upset if he had NO plan? ok then shut the fuck up
I know alot more about the economy then you ever will, trust me on that robin hood. tax cuts have great benefit to the economy.
its a morale issue. some actually disagree with your shit. learn to accept that.
I'm still as free as the day I was born.
the mission at the time we to remove saddam from power. that mission was easily accomplished
dude what is it with you? you used to actually be cool. must be difficult to live with such a small cock.
you are not better then me, remember that.
the line has to be drawn somewhere. I hope torture is NEVER used by american forces.
Also in relentless night raids some fear for their lives, and are pressured so much to talk, (kids and wives screaming) that they rat out their (innocent) neighbors so they will be left alone to be seen as cooperating and gain immunity. They panic and drop a name. Pick someone you don't like and say their name. Presto.
This torture racket , it's somewhat of a self supporting process. People say what they think people want to hear to seek relief. It's cyclical. Torture one guy to get a name to torture the next guy, and so on.
Check out the Ghosts of Abu Ghraib documentary. It's quite the jaw dropper.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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prove to me any of this is true
so you would agree another attack such as 9/11 is justified?
14 year old girls are raped almost daily here in america. world is a fucked up place.
But it is being employeed. CIA interrogators have used waterboarding on suspects.
from what I understand it has stopped no? and I'm still not all that sorry for that particular technique. in almost all cases, nothing happens. no one has ever died. its a mind fuck.
pull out a fingernail, cut off a hand, then yes, I would consider leaving this country.