Authority

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    unifiedscene wrote:
    You're kidding right? The nation famous for coercing google into helping them block any websites the state disapproves of has "no nanny state?"

    There's no website that I've not been able to access here other than Piratebay, but then I just use a proxy server to get around that.
    I lived in England most of my life. I've also been all over America on more than one occasion. People here in China live freer lives.
    In England and the U.S people have the illusion of being free. That's all it is - an illusion. There's no real democracy in the West. As an obvious example; both the populations of the U.S and Britain were unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Did that make any difference? Nope. The Government went ahead with the invasion anyway, based on a pack of blatant lies. And if the people had really caused any trouble and created any kind of scene then what's to say that we wouldn't have witnessed scenes like those in Tienanmen Square in 1989? Not too much different from Kent State, or Seattle, or Genoa really.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    If you have a problem with authority, you need to grow up.

    Sorry Mum.
    By the way, whenever you happen to be stopped by a cop, do you always refer to him as 'Sir'?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    Agreed.

    Well, apparently if you want to buy the new Chinese Democracy album by Guns n Roses, you are screwed if you are in China. Apparently, the Minister of Culture does not like "democracy" being in the title. Yes, freedom!

    Edit: I was in Best Buy the other day, and was amazed at how many album covers have George Bush on the cover (in an unflattering way). This crap about China being more free than the US is ridiculous. You can say anything you want in the US. You can practice any religion you want in the US. Yeah, be a Christian in China. See how that works out for you. Yeah, Chinese Freedom!

    No, you've got it all wrong. They don't like it because it's shit. ;)

    On a similar note:
    Cat Stevens refused entry to US
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3678694.stm

    Bez refused entry to US for historic gig
    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/music/a45779/bez-refused-entry-to-us-for-historic-gig.html

    US refuses visa to Iranian film director Abbas Kiarostami
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/oct2002/visa-o01.shtml

    Ian McEwan Refused Entry to U.S.
    http://www.ianmcewan.com/visa-2004.html
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    You can say anything you want in the US. You can practice any religion you want in the US. Yeah, be a Christian in China. See how that works out for you.

    Try living in both countries, and then tell me that people in China don't live freer lives. And the fact that they can't buy a particular Guns & Roses album in the shops here, or that Christianity isn't widely accepted - somewhat like Islam not being widely approved of in the U.S - is neither here nor there.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Ian McEwan Refused Entry to U.S.
    http://www.ianmcewan.com/visa-2004.html

    being a fan of mcewan this one i was bemused at what the reasoning would be. so i clicked on the link. big woop i say. this is hardly an example of someones freedoms being trampled on. everybody knows you cant enter the US to work without the appropriate documentation. we all know this. and make no mistake thats what mcewan was doing
    did mcewan have this documentation? was someone just doing their job in detaining him? just cause hes been doing 'this kind of thing' for 30 years doesnt mean in these security sensitive times it should be allowed to continue so nonchalantly.
    is he a threat to national security? no
    was it about him ever being? no
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Sweet Emotion
    Sweet Emotion Posts: 100
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    If you have a problem with authority, you need to grow up.

    If you don't have problems with authority you need to do more thinking.
    You have an executive branch of government that has run amok and taken a shit on the Constitution. Those authority figures love guys like you. No questions asked. That's how they planned on pulling off all the signing statements, the abuses of power, the obstructing of justice, illegal warfare for profit, secret rendition. They've done all this in your name and at your expense, financially, culturally, politically.
    Don't ever stop asking questions. Don't ever give up your right to demonstrate.
    I'm not who you think i am....
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    Edit: I was in Best Buy the other day, and was amazed at how many album covers have George Bush on the cover (in an unflattering way). This crap about China being more free than the US is ridiculous. You can say anything you want in the US. You can practice any religion you want in the US. Yeah, be a Christian in China. See how that works out for you. Yeah, Chinese Freedom!

    American Freedom!:

    10-05-2004, 11:27 PM
    By JENNIFER BUNDY
    Associated Press Writer

    'CHARLESTON, W.Va. — A couple arrested for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts to a July 4 presidential appearance filed a federal lawsuit on Tuesday alleging their First Amendment rights were violated.
    Jeff and Nicole Rank, the couple arrested after wearing anti-Bush shirts at the president's July 4 speech at the West Virginia Capitol Building, address the media in Charleston, W.Va., Tuesday, Sept. 14, 2004, about their arrest and pending lawsuit claiming that the Secret Service violated their First Amendment rights.'

    http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/80866/
    March 31, 2008.
    80-Year-Old Church Deacon Arrested for Refusing to Remove His Anti-War T-Shirt

    '..Zirkel said he was sitting in the food court drinking coffee with his wife Marie, 77, and several others when police and mall security officers approached and demanded they remove their anti-war T-shirts.'

    http://www.metafilter.com/23802/anti-bush-t-shirt-banned
    'Anti-Bush T-shirt banned at Michigan school "DEARBORN, Michigan (AP) -- School officials ordered a 16-year-old student to either take off a T-shirt emblazoned with the words "International Terrorist" and a picture of President Bush and or go home, saying they worried it would inflame passions at the school where a majority of students are Arab-American.'

    http://www.newstatesman.com/200601090004
    The death of freedom

    John Pilger Published 09 January 2006

    'The rights of ordinary people to speak out against an unjust war and atrocities unleashed in their name are being crushed. Fascism is at the door. Who else, asks John Pilger, will fight it?

    On 7 December, Maya Evans, a vegan chef aged 25, was convicted of breaching the new Serious Organised Crime and Police Act by reading aloud at the Cenotaph the names of 97 British soldiers killed in Iraq. So serious was her crime that it required 14 policemen in two vans to arrest her. She was fined and given a criminal record for the rest of her life.

    Freedom is dying.

    Eighty-year-old John Catt served with the RAF in the Second World War. Last September, he was stopped by police in Brighton for wearing an "offensive" T-shirt which suggested that Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes. He was arrested under the Terrorism Act and handcuffed, with his arms held behind his back. The official record of the arrest says the "purpose" of searching him was "terrorism" and the "grounds for intervention" were "carrying plackard and T-shirt with anti-Blair info" (sic)...

    Consider parallel events in the United States. Last October, an American doctor, loved by his patients, was punished with 22 years in prison for founding a charity, Help the Needy, which helped children in Iraq stricken by an economic and humanitarian blockade imposed by America and Britain. In raising money for infants dying from diarrhoea, Dr Rafil Dhafir broke a siege which, accor-ding to Unicef, had caused the deaths of half a million under the age of five. John Ashcroft, the then US attorney general, called Dr Dhafir, a Muslim, a "terrorist", a description mocked by even the judge in a politically motivated travesty of a trial.

    The Dhafir case is not extraordinary. In the same month, three US circuit court judges ruled in favour of the Bush regime's "right" to imprison an American citizen "indefinitely" without charging him with a crime. This was the case of Jose Padilla, a petty criminal who allegedly visited Pakistan before he was arrested at Chicago airport three and a half years ago. He was never charged and no evidence has ever been presented against him. Now mired in legal complexity, the case puts George W Bush above the law and outlaws the Bill of Rights. Indeed, on 14 November, the US Senate in effect voted to ban habeas corpus by passing an amendment that overturned a Supreme Court ruling allowing Guantanamo prisoners access to a federal court. Thus, the touchstone of America's most celebrated freedom was scrapped. Without habeas corpus, a government can simply lock away its opponents and implement a dictatorship...'

    Illegal T-shirt
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_T-shirt

    "Fuck the Draft"

    In Cohen v. California 403 U.S. 15 (1971) Paul Robert Cohen, 19, was arrested for wearing a jacket with the words "Fuck the Draft" inside the Los Angeles Courthouse. He was convicted of violating section 415 of the California Penal Code, which prohibits "maliciously and willfully disturb[ing] the peace or quiet of any neighborhood or person [by] offensive conduct."

    The conviction was appealed to the state Court of Appeals, which held that "offensive conduct" means "behavior which has a tendency to provoke others to acts of violence or to in turn disturb the peace," and affirmed the conviction.

    The Supreme Court, by a vote of 5-4, overturned the appellate court's ruling. It said:

    "Absent a more particularized and compelling reason for its actions, the State may not, consistently with the First Amendment and Fourteenth Amendment, make the simple public display of this single four-letter expletive a criminal offense."

    "George W. Bush: International Terrorist"

    A high school junior in Dearborn Heights, Michigan, Bretton Barber, was asked to remove his anti-George W. Bush T-shirt in the lead up to the Iraq War. It featured a picture of Bush with the words "International Terrorist." He was asked to remove it because it supported terrorism.[6] The student sued his school district and his principal in Federal District Court in Detroit, Michigan (Bretton Barber v. Dearborn Public Schools [286 F. Supp. 2d 847]). In a 25-page published opinion, Barber won the lawsuit, and his high school was ordered to allow him to wear the shirt.

    "Give Peace a Chance"

    In the leadup to the Iraq War, a man was asked to leave a shopping mall by a security guard because of his "Give Peace a Chance" T-shirt.

    "Meet the Fuckers"

    In October 2005, Lorrie Heasley, of Portland, Oregon, was removed from a Southwest Airlines flight in Reno, Nevada for wearing a T-shirt displaying an image of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Michael Chertoff and Michael Brown with the caption "Meet the Fuckers," spoofing the film title Meet the Fockers...'
  • lalalalaaaaaaaa
    lalalalaaaaaaaa Posts: 2,445
    Sweet Emotion wrote:
    If you don't have problems with authority you need to do more thinking.
    You have an executive branch of government that has run amok and taken a shit on the Constitution. Those authority figures love guys like you. No questions asked. That's how they planned on pulling off all the signing statements, the abuses of power, the obstructing of justice, illegal warfare for profit, secret rendition. They've done all this in your name and at your expense, financially, culturally, politically.
    Don't ever stop asking questions. Don't ever give up your right to demonstrate.
    Asking questions and dismissing authoritative systems when they become unjust is not the same thing as understanding the concept of authority and the need for it. I don't know why some people can't make this distinction. This thread would've ended a lot sooner if this distinction was made by the OP.

    I think authority is needed to preserve the collective freedom for all. That doesn't mean I automatically respect and accept all forms of it. If an authoritative system becomes unjust, it should be replaced with one that's fair and reasonable. But it shouldn't NOT be replaced. That's retarded and childish to think like that.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Saturnal wrote:
    Asking questions and dismissing authoritative systems when they become unjust is not the same thing as understanding the concept of authority and the need for it. I don't know why some people can't make this distinction. This thread would've ended a lot sooner if this distinction was made by the OP.

    I think authority is needed to preserve the collective freedom for all. That doesn't mean I automatically respect and accept all forms of it. If an authoritative system becomes unjust, it should be replaced with one that's fair and reasonable. But it shouldn't NOT be replaced. That's retarded and childish to think like that.

    Authority/power structures should be constantly challenged, questioned, and made to justify themselves. Shit, if we wanna start getting philosophical about it then I'll go grab my Frantz Fanon, Michel Foucault, and my Chomsky.

    Though I wasn't looking to get so involved. I was really just talking about people in authority, and wondered if anyone else feels the same way.
    I treat people as individuals, but I regard most people in authority with what I regard as a healthy distrust. Until they prove to me that they are a person and not a job (a jobsworth) - and therefore liable to place their job description above any human decency/individuality they might possess - then fuck 'em. It's just a quirk of mine. Authority figures generally get my back up. That's all. I wasn't trying to convert anyone here, I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way.

    Edit: (Actually, I was just bored when I began this thread, and just decided to throw this topic into the mix. Though sometimes if you say too much about something you start to wonder if you actually believe what you're saying. Oh well, I started so I'll finish).
  • Sweet Emotion
    Sweet Emotion Posts: 100
    Saturnal wrote:
    Asking questions and dismissing authoritative systems when they become unjust is not the same thing as understanding the concept of authority and the need for it. I don't know why some people can't make this distinction. This thread would've ended a lot sooner if this distinction was made by the OP.

    I think authority is needed to preserve the collective freedom for all. That doesn't mean I automatically respect and accept all forms of it. If an authoritative system becomes unjust, it should be replaced with one that's fair and reasonable. But it shouldn't NOT be replaced. That's retarded and childish to think like that.

    I didn't say there isn't a need for it. There is, "to preserve the collective freedom", and for more than that. And that's why I get disgusted with the abuses of power, the constant corruption, the invasions on our rights and so-called freedoms. So I put it back on you- the fact that I do get outraged or disapprove, and write lots of letters to my senators and representatives, is because I do understand the need for authority and that it is in place to better serve the people.
    I'm not who you think i am....
  • TrixieCat
    TrixieCat Posts: 5,756
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Authority/power structures should be constantly challenged, questioned, and made to justify themselves. Shit, if we wanna start getting philosophical about it then I'll go grab my Frantz Fanon, Michel Foucault, and my Chomsky.

    Though I wasn't looking to get so involved. I was really just talking about people in authority, and wondered if anyone else feels the same way.
    I treat people as individuals, but I regard most people in authority with what I regard as a healthy distrust. Until they prove to me that they are a person and not a job (a jobsworth) - and therefore liable to place their job description above any human decency/individuality they might possess - then fuck 'em. It's just a quirk of mine. Authority figures generally get my back up. That's all. I wasn't trying to convert anyone here, I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way.
    You regard most people in authority with healthy distrust?
    That is great, it is good to question authority. We all did it in college. Question it, but respect it. I would love to see you start pedaling anti-Communist party propaganda via the written word and attempting to publish it in China. Good luck with that.
    And I am telling you right now, Google is blocking certain websites from your viewing, you just don't know they are out there.
    Also, giving us an example of a child being thrown out of school for wearing a tee shirt that read "Bush is a Terrorist" is not doing anything for me. This child was promoting terrorism; a federal offense.
    Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
    And I don't feel right when you're gone away
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    TrixieCat wrote:
    You regard most people in authority with healthy distrust?
    That is great, it is good to question authority. We all did it in college. Question it, but respect it.

    People have to earn my respect. It doesn't come pre-packaged.
    TrixieCat wrote:
    I would love to see you start pedaling anti-Communist party propaganda via the written word and attempting to publish it in China. Good luck with that.

    I'm a foreigner in this country. If I was in the U.S and started publishing anti-government propaganda there the results would be the same.
    TrixieCat wrote:
    And I am telling you right now, Google is blocking certain websites from your viewing, you just don't know they are out there.

    Such as?
    TrixieCat wrote:
    Also, giving us an example of a child being thrown out of school for wearing a tee shirt that read "Bush is a Terrorist" is not doing anything for me. This child was promoting terrorism; a federal offense.

    No he wasn't. He was calling Bush a terrorist - a pretty accurate observation if you ask me.
  • TrixieCat
    TrixieCat Posts: 5,756
    Byrnzie wrote:
    People have to earn my respect. It doesn't come pre-packaged.



    I'm a foreigner in this country. If I was in the U.S and started publishing anti-government propaganda there the results would be the same.



    Such as?



    No he wasn't. He was calling Bush a terrorist - a pretty accurate observation if you ask me.
    okey-dokey
    :)
    Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
    And I don't feel right when you're gone away
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    TrixieCat wrote:
    okey-dokey
    :)

    Are you toying with me again Trixie? ;) You know how suggestible and gullible I am. :)
  • lalalalaaaaaaaa
    lalalalaaaaaaaa Posts: 2,445
    Sweet Emotion wrote:
    I didn't say there isn't a need for it. There is, "to preserve the collective freedom", and for more than that. And that's why I get disgusted with the abuses of power, the constant corruption, the invasions on our rights and so-called freedoms. So I put it back on you- the fact that I do get outraged or disapprove, and write lots of letters to my senators and representatives, is because I do understand the need for authority and that it is in place to better serve the people.
    Exactly. That's all that needs to be said. We should be smart enough and mature enough to recognize the difference between the concept of authority, and the people who have it and use it. And we should be able to communicate that we understand this distinction, because when we don't communicate that, people misunderstand us and threads get ridiculously long :p
  • Heineken Helen
    Heineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Sweet Emotion wrote:
    If you don't have problems with authority you need to do more thinking.
    You have an executive branch of government that has run amok and taken a shit on the Constitution. Those authority figures love guys like you. No questions asked. That's how they planned on pulling off all the signing statements, the abuses of power, the obstructing of justice, illegal warfare for profit, secret rendition. They've done all this in your name and at your expense, financially, culturally, politically.
    Don't ever stop asking questions. Don't ever give up your right to demonstrate.
    Agreed... so now we can't question authority??? :rolleyes: We should just accept the 'freedom' that we're given, no questions asked? :D
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • TrixieCat
    TrixieCat Posts: 5,756
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Are you toying with me again Trixie? ;) You know how suggestible and gullible I am. :)
    Who me? <puts on innocent look>
    Why, I am offended.
    I would neeevvvvveerrrr do something as manipulative as that.
    The nerve.
    :)
    Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
    And I don't feel right when you're gone away
  • ajedigecko
    ajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,431
    Byrnzie wrote:
    In rural areas they're allowed a second child if their first is a girl. In the cities the one child policy still stands - unless you can pay a hefty fine.

    I think it's a good idea. They should adopt it in England aswell. There are too many people in the world. And there are too many people in England having babies who can't afford to raise them, and who are too young to have children.
    you believe there are too many people in the world and the U.S. and England should adopt the policy of paying a hefty fine for having children?

    your words are quite possibly the most authoratative i have read.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • unifiedscene
    unifiedscene Posts: 462
    Byrnzie wrote:
    There's no website that I've not been able to access here other than Piratebay, but then I just use a proxy server to get around that.
    I lived in England most of my life. I've also been all over America on more than one occasion. People here in China live freer lives.
    In England and the U.S people have the illusion of being free. That's all it is - an illusion. There's no real democracy in the West. As an obvious example; both the populations of the U.S and Britain were unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Did that make any difference? Nope. The Government went ahead with the invasion anyway, based on a pack of blatant lies. And if the people had really caused any trouble and created any kind of scene then what's to say that we wouldn't have witnessed scenes like those in Tienanmen Square in 1989? Not too much different from Kent State, or Seattle, or Genoa really.

    I don't know if you were paying attention, but the people of America DID support the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They only turned on it the last few years, and when they did, they threw the party responsible out of every office in the country. Can you do that in China?

    Please, since you have so many examples of oppression in the US, tell me what wonderful freedoms you have in China that we lack here? I'm dying to know.

    I love that you're advocating forced sterilization and abortion in the same posts that you talk about how free the Chinese are... free to decide everything except how many kids to have, what arts are acceptable, what religion to practice, what newspapers to read... but they at least get to... what? What freedoms do these Chinese people have that I should be envying?
    she was underwhelmed, if that's a word
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    unifiedscene wrote:
    I don't know if you were paying attention, but the people of America DID support the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They only turned on it the last few years, and when they did, they threw the party responsible out of every office in the country. Can you do that in China?

    No. You're wrong. The people of America and Britain did not support the invasion of Iraq. There was massive opposition to the war across both sides of the pond. Massive, unprecedented opposition, which saw millions take to the streets. I was one of those people.
    And what's this about throwing the party responsible for it out of office? Are you talking about the recent election which took place 5 years after the event? Please elaborate.

    unifiedscene wrote:
    I love that you're advocating forced sterilization and abortion in the same posts that you talk about how free the Chinese are... free to decide everything except how many kids to have, what arts are acceptable, what religion to practice, what newspapers to read... but they at least get to... what? What freedoms do these Chinese people have that I should be envying?


    1. There are too many people in the world and the environment cannot sustain them all. Do you deny this?

    2. Regarding censorship of the arts, as far as I know rock music has never been popular in China. It's just not really a part of the culture here. Even so, It's possible to purchase pretty much anything now with the internet. I won't deny that there is state control here, but then I don't see it being considerably different anywhere else. It's like with the media. In America you have the illusion of a free and independent media. But if you've read your Chomsky then you'll know that this isn't really true.

    Meanwhile:

    Pearl Jam censored by AT&T, calls for a neutral 'Net
    '...The incident happened during a Lollapalooza webcast over at AT&T's "Blue Room" media showcase. Pearl Jam's performance of their big 90's hit "Daughter" morphed into the melody from Pink Floyd's "The Wall," and Eddie Vedder served up a pair of anti-Bush lyrics to the tune. "George Bush, leave this world alone," he sang. "George Bush, find yourself another home."

    Fans at the event got to hear the words in all their glory, but in the webcast, the lines were censored—AT&T made the decision to silence them, apparently believing that they would prove offensive to listeners. When Pearl Jam found out about the censorship, the band posted a strongly-worded message on its web site...'



    Wal-Mart's CD censorship violates free speech
    http://media.www.vanderbiltorbis.com/media/storage/paper983/news/2002/03/27/UndefinedSection/WalMarts.Cd.Censorship.Violates.Free.Speech-2471337.shtml


    http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/01.09.97/walmart-music-9702.html
    '..In some areas of the country, Wal-Mart is the only place to buy CDs or tapes. While it is well known that Wal-Mart doesn't carry labeled CDs, the New York Times recently detailed in a front-page story how the chain and other big retailers are having an insidious effect on music and movie production. Like cancerous cells, adulterated censored CDs are proliferating in Wal-Mart's bins, in many cases without being identified as such.

    In some cases, CDs are altered to bleep out "bad" words. For instance, the cover of a White Zombie disc, Supersexy Swingin' Sounds, was cleaned up by airbrushing a bikini onto a nude model reclining in a hammock (even though no naughty bits were visible). A song on the back of Primitive Radio Gods' Rocket CD is identified as "Motherfker" in the aforementioned record store, but as "Mother" at Wal-Mart.

    The New York Times also identified creepier instances of corporate power being used to suppress ideas. Wal-Mart won't carry Sheryl Crow's new record because she chides the company for allegedly selling guns to children. The figures of Jesus and the Devil flanking John Mellencamp on the cover of his new record, Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky, are airbrushed out of the copies available at Wal-Mart. Mellancamp reportedly OK'd the change in the interest of record sales.

    In a sanitized world, apparently, we can't acknowledge moral conflict. Since then, Usenet newsgroups have been buzzing with calls to "Boycott Wal-Mart!" and dialogues over whether it's really censorship if the pressure on the artists comes from private corporations rather than the government...'

    Wal-Mart Sells "Sanitized" Music, Film
    'Titles like Nirvana's "Incesticide" won't be found on any Wal-Mart shelves, while another Nirvana title, "Rape Me" has been downgraded to "Waif Me." Dozens of rap and hard rock artists have cleaned up their lyrics to meet Wal-Mart's family-oriented standards. John Mellencamp's latest CD, "Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky" shows the artist with two children and a dog. In the background on either side are faded drawings of Jesus and the Devil. The background on the Wal-Mart case is airbrushed out...'

    3. People are free to practice any religion here. The fact is, Christianity has never managed to get a foothold in China despite centuries of effort from Christian missionaries. This just isn't a Christian land. People here practice, Buddhism first and foremost, Islam, and some animist/shamanic beliefs. There are churches in every major city in China but it will never gain the popularity that it has in the West, just as Islam will never be a major player in the West.

    4. As for freedom in the day-to-day lives of people - which is what I was talking about initially, would you disagree that people in Spain live freer, less pressured, and more laid-back lives than people in Britain or the U.S? I don't think that anyone could argue that they don't. I've been to many countries in the world and in my experience people here have a lot of freedom in their day-to-day lives. There's less pressure to 'succeed'. There's fewer restrictions here - whether for good or ill; people can smoke anywhere, there's lax - to the point of being practically non-existent - traffic laws, they are not heavily taxed, e.t.c.. People here are happier. Try traveling around London for a day and see how happy and content people are there - every fucker has a long face. Not so here. People here are some of the happiest, friendliest people I've met - the same goes for those in India.

    Anyway, just my opinion.

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