Authority/power structures should be constantly challenged, questioned, and made to justify themselves. Shit, if we wanna start getting philosophical about it then I'll go grab my Frantz Fanon, Michel Foucault, and my Chomsky.
Though I wasn't looking to get so involved. I was really just talking about people in authority, and wondered if anyone else feels the same way.
I treat people as individuals, but I regard most people in authority with what I regard as a healthy distrust. Until they prove to me that they are a person and not a job (a jobsworth) - and therefore liable to place their job description above any human decency/individuality they might possess - then fuck 'em. It's just a quirk of mine. Authority figures generally get my back up. That's all. I wasn't trying to convert anyone here, I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way.
You regard most people in authority with healthy distrust?
That is great, it is good to question authority. We all did it in college. Question it, but respect it. I would love to see you start pedaling anti-Communist party propaganda via the written word and attempting to publish it in China. Good luck with that.
And I am telling you right now, Google is blocking certain websites from your viewing, you just don't know they are out there.
Also, giving us an example of a child being thrown out of school for wearing a tee shirt that read "Bush is a Terrorist" is not doing anything for me. This child was promoting terrorism; a federal offense.
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
You regard most people in authority with healthy distrust?
That is great, it is good to question authority. We all did it in college. Question it, but respect it.
People have to earn my respect. It doesn't come pre-packaged.
I would love to see you start pedaling anti-Communist party propaganda via the written word and attempting to publish it in China. Good luck with that.
I'm a foreigner in this country. If I was in the U.S and started publishing anti-government propaganda there the results would be the same.
Also, giving us an example of a child being thrown out of school for wearing a tee shirt that read "Bush is a Terrorist" is not doing anything for me. This child was promoting terrorism; a federal offense.
No he wasn't. He was calling Bush a terrorist - a pretty accurate observation if you ask me.
I didn't say there isn't a need for it. There is, "to preserve the collective freedom", and for more than that. And that's why I get disgusted with the abuses of power, the constant corruption, the invasions on our rights and so-called freedoms. So I put it back on you- the fact that I do get outraged or disapprove, and write lots of letters to my senators and representatives, is because I do understand the need for authority and that it is in place to better serve the people.
Exactly. That's all that needs to be said. We should be smart enough and mature enough to recognize the difference between the concept of authority, and the people who have it and use it. And we should be able to communicate that we understand this distinction, because when we don't communicate that, people misunderstand us and threads get ridiculously long
If you don't have problems with authority you need to do more thinking.
You have an executive branch of government that has run amok and taken a shit on the Constitution. Those authority figures love guys like you. No questions asked. That's how they planned on pulling off all the signing statements, the abuses of power, the obstructing of justice, illegal warfare for profit, secret rendition. They've done all this in your name and at your expense, financially, culturally, politically.
Don't ever stop asking questions. Don't ever give up your right to demonstrate.
Agreed... so now we can't question authority??? :rolleyes: We should just accept the 'freedom' that we're given, no questions asked?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
In rural areas they're allowed a second child if their first is a girl. In the cities the one child policy still stands - unless you can pay a hefty fine.
I think it's a good idea. They should adopt it in England aswell. There are too many people in the world. And there are too many people in England having babies who can't afford to raise them, and who are too young to have children.
you believe there are too many people in the world and the U.S. and England should adopt the policy of paying a hefty fine for having children?
your words are quite possibly the most authoratative i have read.
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
There's no website that I've not been able to access here other than Piratebay, but then I just use a proxy server to get around that.
I lived in England most of my life. I've also been all over America on more than one occasion. People here in China live freer lives.
In England and the U.S people have the illusion of being free. That's all it is - an illusion. There's no real democracy in the West. As an obvious example; both the populations of the U.S and Britain were unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Did that make any difference? Nope. The Government went ahead with the invasion anyway, based on a pack of blatant lies. And if the people had really caused any trouble and created any kind of scene then what's to say that we wouldn't have witnessed scenes like those in Tienanmen Square in 1989? Not too much different from Kent State, or Seattle, or Genoa really.
I don't know if you were paying attention, but the people of America DID support the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They only turned on it the last few years, and when they did, they threw the party responsible out of every office in the country. Can you do that in China?
Please, since you have so many examples of oppression in the US, tell me what wonderful freedoms you have in China that we lack here? I'm dying to know.
I love that you're advocating forced sterilization and abortion in the same posts that you talk about how free the Chinese are... free to decide everything except how many kids to have, what arts are acceptable, what religion to practice, what newspapers to read... but they at least get to... what? What freedoms do these Chinese people have that I should be envying?
I don't know if you were paying attention, but the people of America DID support the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They only turned on it the last few years, and when they did, they threw the party responsible out of every office in the country. Can you do that in China?
No. You're wrong. The people of America and Britain did not support the invasion of Iraq. There was massive opposition to the war across both sides of the pond. Massive, unprecedented opposition, which saw millions take to the streets. I was one of those people.
And what's this about throwing the party responsible for it out of office? Are you talking about the recent election which took place 5 years after the event? Please elaborate.
I love that you're advocating forced sterilization and abortion in the same posts that you talk about how free the Chinese are... free to decide everything except how many kids to have, what arts are acceptable, what religion to practice, what newspapers to read... but they at least get to... what? What freedoms do these Chinese people have that I should be envying?
1. There are too many people in the world and the environment cannot sustain them all. Do you deny this?
2. Regarding censorship of the arts, as far as I know rock music has never been popular in China. It's just not really a part of the culture here. Even so, It's possible to purchase pretty much anything now with the internet. I won't deny that there is state control here, but then I don't see it being considerably different anywhere else. It's like with the media. In America you have the illusion of a free and independent media. But if you've read your Chomsky then you'll know that this isn't really true.
Meanwhile:
Pearl Jam censored by AT&T, calls for a neutral 'Net
'...The incident happened during a Lollapalooza webcast over at AT&T's "Blue Room" media showcase. Pearl Jam's performance of their big 90's hit "Daughter" morphed into the melody from Pink Floyd's "The Wall," and Eddie Vedder served up a pair of anti-Bush lyrics to the tune. "George Bush, leave this world alone," he sang. "George Bush, find yourself another home."
Fans at the event got to hear the words in all their glory, but in the webcast, the lines were censored—AT&T made the decision to silence them, apparently believing that they would prove offensive to listeners. When Pearl Jam found out about the censorship, the band posted a strongly-worded message on its web site...'
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/01.09.97/walmart-music-9702.html
'..In some areas of the country, Wal-Mart is the only place to buy CDs or tapes. While it is well known that Wal-Mart doesn't carry labeled CDs, the New York Times recently detailed in a front-page story how the chain and other big retailers are having an insidious effect on music and movie production. Like cancerous cells, adulterated censored CDs are proliferating in Wal-Mart's bins, in many cases without being identified as such.
In some cases, CDs are altered to bleep out "bad" words. For instance, the cover of a White Zombie disc, Supersexy Swingin' Sounds, was cleaned up by airbrushing a bikini onto a nude model reclining in a hammock (even though no naughty bits were visible). A song on the back of Primitive Radio Gods' Rocket CD is identified as "Motherfker" in the aforementioned record store, but as "Mother" at Wal-Mart.
The New York Times also identified creepier instances of corporate power being used to suppress ideas. Wal-Mart won't carry Sheryl Crow's new record because she chides the company for allegedly selling guns to children. The figures of Jesus and the Devil flanking John Mellencamp on the cover of his new record, Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky, are airbrushed out of the copies available at Wal-Mart. Mellancamp reportedly OK'd the change in the interest of record sales.
In a sanitized world, apparently, we can't acknowledge moral conflict. Since then, Usenet newsgroups have been buzzing with calls to "Boycott Wal-Mart!" and dialogues over whether it's really censorship if the pressure on the artists comes from private corporations rather than the government...'
Wal-Mart Sells "Sanitized" Music, Film
'Titles like Nirvana's "Incesticide" won't be found on any Wal-Mart shelves, while another Nirvana title, "Rape Me" has been downgraded to "Waif Me." Dozens of rap and hard rock artists have cleaned up their lyrics to meet Wal-Mart's family-oriented standards. John Mellencamp's latest CD, "Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky" shows the artist with two children and a dog. In the background on either side are faded drawings of Jesus and the Devil. The background on the Wal-Mart case is airbrushed out...'
3. People are free to practice any religion here. The fact is, Christianity has never managed to get a foothold in China despite centuries of effort from Christian missionaries. This just isn't a Christian land. People here practice, Buddhism first and foremost, Islam, and some animist/shamanic beliefs. There are churches in every major city in China but it will never gain the popularity that it has in the West, just as Islam will never be a major player in the West.
4. As for freedom in the day-to-day lives of people - which is what I was talking about initially, would you disagree that people in Spain live freer, less pressured, and more laid-back lives than people in Britain or the U.S? I don't think that anyone could argue that they don't. I've been to many countries in the world and in my experience people here have a lot of freedom in their day-to-day lives. There's less pressure to 'succeed'. There's fewer restrictions here - whether for good or ill; people can smoke anywhere, there's lax - to the point of being practically non-existent - traffic laws, they are not heavily taxed, e.t.c.. People here are happier. Try traveling around London for a day and see how happy and content people are there - every fucker has a long face. Not so here. People here are some of the happiest, friendliest people I've met - the same goes for those in India.
The people of America and Britain did not support the invasion of Iraq.
I don't know about Britain, but most Americans were behind the invasion. There was opposition, but it was miniscule in comparison to support. Everyone here thought Saddam had WMD's and was selling them to Al Qaeda so that Americans could be poisoned with Anthrax.
I won't deny that there is state control here, but then I don't see it being considerably different anywhere else.
Is there anything in the US that parallels the persecution of the Falon Gong in China?
It's true that the media is biased, but this is due to profit interests. AT&T is not interested in being perceived as having anything to do with chastising of the president as that could divide its customers.
At any rate, you talk of reading Chomsky instead. Have you considered standing on the corner of a Chinese intersection and reciting literature that is critical of the government? Happens here all the time. I guess maybe the fascist police are too busy torturing religious dissidents to do anything about it.
I don't know about Britain, but most Americans were behind the invasion. There was opposition, but it was miniscule in comparison to support. Everyone here thought Saddam had WMD's and was selling them to Al Qaeda so that Americans could be poisoned with Anthrax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War '..Within the United States, popular opinion on the war has varied significantly with time. Although there was significant opposition to the idea in the months preceding the attack, polls taken during the invasion showed that a majority of Americans supported their country's action. However, public opinion had shifted by 2004 to a majority believing that the invasion was a mistake, and has remained so since then...
The opposition to the war manifested itself most visibly in a series of global protests against the Iraq War during February 2003, just before the Iraq invasion starting on March 20, 2003.
"Poll results available from Gallup International, as well as local sources for most of Europe, West and East, showed that support for a war carried out "unilaterally by America and its allies" did not rise above 11 percent in any country. Support for a war if mandated by the UN ranged from 13 percent (Spain) to 51 percent (Netherlands)."
No. You're wrong. The people of America and Britain did not support the invasion of Iraq. There was massive opposition to the war across both sides of the pond. Massive, unprecedented opposition, which saw millions take to the streets. I was one of those people.
And what's this about throwing the party responsible for it out of office? Are you talking about the recent election which took place 5 years after the event? Please elaborate.
Sure there was opposition. But there are hundred of millions of people in America. Millions in the streets opposing is not a majority. America bought the bullshit, hook, line, and sinker. They supported the war going in. It took 2 years for them to realize it was a total clusterfuck... thus they voted against the Republicans. You really have no grasp on reality do you?
1. There are too many people in the world and the environment cannot sustain them all. Do you deny this?
2. Regarding censorship of the arts, as far as I know rock music has never been popular in China. It's just not really a part of the culture here. Even so, It's possible to purchase pretty much anything now with the internet. I won't deny that there is state control here, but then I don't see it being considerably different anywhere else. It's like with the media. In America you have the illusion of a free and independent media. But if you've read your Chomsky then you'll know that this isn't really true.
1. No, I don't. But I don't think forcing people to get abortions is the answer. Do you? Is that freedom? I do enjoy watching you wiggle when your absurd contradictions are exposed though.
2. So you acknowledge that in China the state controls information. Thank you.
4. As for freedom in the day-to-day lives of people - which is what I was talking about initially, would you disagree that people in Spain live freer, less pressured, and more laid-back lives than people in Britain or the U.S? I don't think that anyone could argue that they don't. I've been to many countries in the world and in my experience people here have a lot of freedom in their day-to-day lives. There's less pressure to 'succeed'. There's fewer restrictions here - whether for good or ill; people can smoke anywhere, there's lax - to the point of being practically non-existent - traffic laws, they are not heavily taxed, e.t.c.. People here are happier. Try traveling around London for a day and see how happy and content people are there - every fucker has a long face. Not so here. People here are some of the happiest, friendliest people I've met - the same goes for those in India.
Spain? I believe I asked you why China was so much more free than the US. Nice non-answer though. I never claimed the US topped Europe for freedom. I said it was bullshit to try and argue that China has more freedom than the US. The ability to smoke in public or run red lights doesn't exactly give me a boner. Being able to choose my career, vote on my leaders, and call Dubya Satan incarnate without being run over by a tank does though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War '..Within the United States, popular opinion on the war has varied significantly with time. Although there was significant opposition to the idea in the months preceding the attack, polls taken during the invasion showed that a majority of Americans supported their country's action. However, public opinion had shifted by 2004 to a majority believing that the invasion was a mistake, and has remained so since then...
Exactly what I said. A majority of Americans supported it
"Poll results available from Gallup International, as well as local sources for most of Europe, West and East, showed that support for a war carried out "unilaterally by America and its allies" did not rise above 11 percent in any country. Support for a war if mandated by the UN ranged from 13 percent (Spain) to 51 percent (Netherlands)."
Europe. Tell me where I said most Europeans supported the Iraq War?
Sure there was opposition. But there are hundred of millions of people in America. Millions in the streets opposing is not a majority. America bought the bullshit, hook, line, and sinker. They supported the war going in. It took 2 years for them to realize it was a total clusterfuck... thus they voted against the Republicans.
You say that as though it was a good thing. Trust me, the fact that there are millions of gullible, unquestioning morons in your country is nothing to be proud of.
The fact that millions took to the streets in protest prior to the invasion was because they knew that the British and U.S governments had already taken the decision to invade and that they were blatantly lying to us.
Still...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_popular_opinion_of_invasion_of_Iraq
'An early January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before. Much of this appeared to be for the same reason that France and Germany opposed the war; namely the US public believing that the weapons inspectors should be given the time they need to complete their investigations. US officials downplayed this shift in public opinion, claiming that it was not a true reflection of the public mood.
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately'
But I don't think forcing people to get abortions is the answer. Do you? Is that freedom?
If people know beforehand that they can't have more than one child then they'll take the necessary steps to avoid pregnancy beforehand. It's called responsibility. There are too many people in the world and not enough resources to go around. It's time that people began equating that with their desire to knock out two or 3 babies. I think a law restricting the amount of children a couple can have would be a good thing. You see, there's the future to consider. Not just the immediate future, but the long-term survival of our planet and our species. You may regard such ideas as backwards and barbaric, but I see them as forward-thinking and progressive.
Spain? I believe I asked you why China was so much more free than the US. Nice non-answer though. I never claimed the US topped Europe for freedom. I said it was bullshit to try and argue that China has more freedom than the US. The ability to smoke in public or run red lights doesn't exactly give me a boner. Being able to choose my career, vote on my leaders, and call Dubya Satan incarnate without being run over by a tank does though.
I used the example of Spain as a comparison in order to show you that their are countries in this world where people live freer lives. There's far less control and pressure on people in many parts of the world than in the U.S, Spain being just one of these places.
Americans always begin frothing at the mouth when the subject of their supposed freedom is mentioned. It's pretty hilarious really.
People in China are free to choose their own careers.
You have a choice of voting between two candidates who both represent the same thing. I hope that gives you the boner that you crave.
I posted numerous examples of people in the U.S being arrested for wearing t-shirts criticizing George Bush. If the people in the U.S had protested outside Capital Hill for weeks on end and your beloved government had felt threatened, who's to say we wouldn't have seen tanks in the streets? It's already been shown that those in power in the U.S aren't averse to murdering their own citizens if they protest too much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_popular_opinion_of_invasion_of_Iraq
'An early January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before. Much of this appeared to be for the same reason that France and Germany opposed the war; namely the US public believing that the weapons inspectors should be given the time they need to complete their investigations. US officials downplayed this shift in public opinion, claiming that it was not a true reflection of the public mood.
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately'
From the same source:
"In a January 2003 CBS poll 64% of U.S. nationals had approved of military action against Iraq"
We could trade polls all night, but the fact is that the American people were far from universally opposed to the Iraq invasion. There was hardly uniform opposition that was ignored.
So what solution/solutions do you propose then? That we begin settling on the moon?
If people know beforehand that they can't have more than one child then they'll take the steps to avoid pregnancy beforehand. It's called responsibility.
Yeah, same as in the U.S.
Same as the US. Yet you said China was MORE FREE. Not the same as.
I vote for education and easy access to birth control. But I stop short of forcing surgery on unwilling citizens. But, you know, I'm weird like that. I'm still waiting to hear you explain how forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will is freedom. Please, humor me.
I used the example of Spain as a comparison in order to show you that their are countries in this world where people live freer lives. There's far less control and pressure on people in many parts of than in the U.S, Spain being just one of these places.
Americans always begin frothing at the mouth when the subject of their supposed freedom is mentioned. It's pretty hilarious really.
People in China are free to choose their own careers.
You have a choice of voting between two candidates who both represent the same thing. I hope that gives you a boner.
I posted numerous examples of people in the U.S being arrested for wearing t-shirts criticizing George Bush. If the people in the U.S had protested outside Capital Hill for weeks on end and your beloved government had felt threatened, who's to say we wouldn't have seen tanks in the streets? It's already been shown that those in power in the U.S aren't averse to murdering their own citizens if they protest too much.
I don't deny that America has its problems. Europe sure has America beat for the most part. I'm hardly frothing at the mouth, and I think generally that patriotism is ridiculous. The only reason I responded to you is that saying China is more free is one of the dumbest things I've ever read here. It's a great country with a rich history, but its world-renowned for human rights abuses, vicious suppression of dissent (and no matter how many links you post of some small town sheriff trying to rattle a kid by arresting him for an anti-Bush shirt, the fact is those people are never convicted and certainly never killed or imprisoned), and complete government control of all information (again, the US has its problems there, but we've still got access to alternatives).
2 things stand out to me in this thread:
1. People have challened you to stand on a street corner there and rant against the government and leaders of China and see what happens. I'll do the same on the corner here in Chicago and we'll compare results.
2. I'm still dying to hear you tell me how forcing a woman to have a medical abortion against her will is freedom. Keep trying to dodge that one though, it's fun to see. You look like Sean Hannity when you do it.
You clearly have trouble understanding the English language. Read it again, slowly. Try not to blink.
I thought this was pretty clear:
"polls taken during the invasion showed that a majority of Americans supported their country's action."
You said:
"There's no real democracy in the West. As an obvious example; both the populations of the U.S and Britain were unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Did that make any difference? Nope. The Government went ahead with the invasion anyway,"
How does a poll saying that until 2004 most Americans supported their country's actions prove that in 2003 the US was unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...vasion_of_Iraq
'An early January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before. Much of this appeared to be for the same reason that France and Germany opposed the war; namely the US public believing that the weapons inspectors should be given the time they need to complete their investigations. US officials downplayed this shift in public opinion, claiming that it was not a true reflection of the public mood.
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately'
saying China is more free is one of the dumbest things I've ever read here.
Please point out to me where I said that China is more free than the U.S. I said that people here live freer lives. A lot of things are controlled here that aren't controlled in the U.S, but people can breathe a lot easier here. The society and culture here isn't as geared towards controlling every aspect of everyone's lives the way it is in Britain and the U.S. I'm talking about the day-to-day lives of ordinary people, not the struggles of political activists up against the government. You see, despite what a lot of outsiders may think, life here doesn't really resemble George Orwell's 1984. And besides, Winston Smith would stick out like a sore thumb over here.
1. People have challened you to stand on a street corner there and rant against the government and leaders of China and see what happens. I'll do the same on the corner here in Chicago and we'll compare results.
O.k. Here's the deal: You stand on a street corner in Chicago and rant against the government and leaders in Mandarin Chinese, and I'll stand on a street here and rant against the government and leaders in English. Deal?
2. I'm still dying to hear you tell me how forcing a woman to have a medical abortion against her will is freedom. Keep trying to dodge that one though, it's fun to see. You look like Sean Hannity when you do it.
I never said anything about abortions. You raised that topic.
well, atleast this thread has been able to show unifiedscene's ineptness at debate.
anyone who believes U.S.-led propaganda against China is full of it. Yes, Chinese peoples' freedom is questionable, but not to the extent that the U.S. government wants you to believe. Also, we shouldn't be comparing our freedom to that of China's. Why can't we just actually have freedom? Why can we only have the SAME amount of freedom as China, no more?
unifiedscene, you like to waste your time arguing irrelevant figures - you claim that the Americans had the ability to vote out the party that started the war, and we did so... what the hell are you talking about? The majority of Americans wanted our troops out a long time ago, why are they not home yet? The Democrats did NOTHING different. And, in fact, we didn't have the ability to vote in anyone else - we had a choice: Republican or Democrat.
We don't live in a true democracy, we live in an oppressive regime, and most Americans don't realize that our own government is the only one who doesn't want us to be free. The Iranians actually do want freedom for Americans, Al Qaeda wants freedom for Americans, everyone does. Most people actually believe in the American people to an extent - but the more we vote in bullshit administrations and these type of authoritative figures that are supposed to represent us, the more that people begin to think we really are just stupid fucks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...vasion_of_Iraq
'An early January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before. Much of this appeared to be for the same reason that France and Germany opposed the war; namely the US public believing that the weapons inspectors should be given the time they need to complete their investigations. US officials downplayed this shift in public opinion, claiming that it was not a true reflection of the public mood.
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately'
No, no, no.
No.
You cannot site Wikipedia for "fact"
I can go on there and say the sky is polka dot and smells of pastrami.
No, no, no.
No.
:rolleyes:
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Most people actually believe in the American people to an extent - but the more we vote in bullshit administrations and these type of authoritative figures that are supposed to represent us, the more that people begin to think we really are just stupid fucks.
It seemed to me like a huge chunk of the rest of the world were rejoycing when Obama won through though. Do you agree with this? I still think there are a bunch of people worldwide who admire the good things we have done but absolutely hate the bad things. I mean hell, we live in a democracy right? We choose our Government, so we are ultimately responsible for the fucked up decisions our government makes. We can't have it both ways, we can't get on our soapboxes and go on about the virtues of our democracy without accepting responsibility.
That's why the people who voted for Bush, and are now the ones having so much to say here about Obama, need to have a good look at themselves. They are responsible for the last 8 years. Not me. Them. I voted Obama, and i am (along with anyone else who voted him), responsible for allowing him the power to make any future decisions.
So yeah Outlaw, that's not why they think we are stupid fucks. They think we are stupid fucks because of our foregin policies. Our foreign policy is based completely on national self-interest, not international cooperation. They can see through our speeches of how we help the world. Sure we do, but we also don't mind helping ourselves to the resources and well being of the world.
They think we are stupid fucks because we're just five percent of the world's population, yet we consume 23% of its energy and in the past we have not seemed to be to bothered by any of these statistics. They think we are stupid fucks because we insist on giving total support for Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Disgusting. We should be more outraged than we are. I see more anger here for a stupid freaking website like eharmony not having provision for gays to find their partners, or more outrage for fat fucks flying on airplanes, not having to pay for two seats, than i do for what what is happening to the palestinian people.
They think we are stupid fucks because while our country is falling apart before our eyes, we can't see it, and continue to be arrogant, conceited, and think we are better than anyone else.
And the clincher? Because we are not already hated enough :rolleyes: About 3000 innocent civilians were killed on 9/11. So what do we do in retaliation? Does anyone even know any accurate figures on how many people we have killed?
Meanwhile, while we are off murdering hundreds of thousands of people to avenge the 3000 lives lost on 9/11, (when will we be happy? When the rations is 1:1000?), 30,000 AMERICANS a year die from guns realted injuries, and we continue to turn a bllind eye and refuse to consider any sort of regulations. Yep, the rest of the world thinks we are stupid fucks for that too.
I am fiercely loyal to my country, but i am not stupid. We've got a long way to go to dig ourselves out of this hole we are in and to regain the respect of the rest of the world again.
Have not posted in a while, excuse the big post. Hard to say what i wanted to in a few words.
That's why the people who voted for Bush, and are now the ones having so much to say here about Obama, need to have a good look at themselves. They are responsible for the last 8 years. Not me. Them. I voted Obama, and i am (along with anyone else who voted him), responsible for allowing him the power to make any future decisions.
The Bush administration is responsible for their decisions over the last 8 years. No one else. Those who made it possible for those decisions to be implemented have a hand in this, but that isn't restricted to Bush voters only...it's anyone who pays taxes and funds the Bush policies. That pretty much means ALL of us. You can't finger one group as being responsible for someone's decisions/policies and dismiss another group that is responsible for making those decisions/policies possible in the first place. If it makes you feel better to say "oh I don't support Bush, the war, etc." fine, but you do support it if you're paying taxes. We all do. And we ALL need to have a "good look at ourselves", not just Bush voters.
the "overpopulation" arguement has always made me wonder. for the individuals who spout this nonsense, just once, i would like to see them be the first in line to lead the way. because in the end, you can only control your actions, without being an authoritative figure.
when and if you get the time. could someone please post a checklist of what qualifies one person over another, with regards to how many children they can have?
also....could you post the checklist without being an authortative figure?
sidenote: i was thinking about this topic during the weekend. i do have a problem with people i label as "know it nothings".
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
I am fiercely loyal to my country, but i am not stupid. We've got a long way to go to dig ourselves out of this hole we are in and to regain the respect of the rest of the world again.
Have not posted in a while, excuse the big post. Hard to say what i wanted to in a few words.
and HERE'S the thing many refuse to accept... WE ARE ACTUALLY RIGHT BEHIND YOU! If America wants to be a force for good in the world, you won't have many sane people debating that or fighting against you! We want America to be what it CAN be... not what it HAS been! And right now, you have a fresh start in many of the worlds view. Sure it will take a while to forgive and forget... but just prove us wrong
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
The Bush administration is responsible for their decisions over the last 8 years. No one else. Those who made it possible for those decisions to be implemented have a hand in this, but that isn't restricted to Bush voters only...it's anyone who pays taxes and funds the Bush policies. That pretty much means ALL of us. You can't finger one group as being responsible for someone's decisions/policies and dismiss another group that is responsible for making those decisions/policies possible in the first place. If it makes you feel better to say "oh I don't support Bush, the war, etc." fine, but you do support it if you're paying taxes. We all do. And we ALL need to have a "good look at ourselves", not just Bush voters.
Way to just pull one section of my post out and comment. I know WE all have to work harder. I think i used WE about 30 times in my post.
The Bush administration is responsible for their decisions over the last 8 years. No one else. Those who made it possible for those decisions to be implemented have a hand in this, but that isn't restricted to Bush voters only...it's anyone who pays taxes and funds the Bush policies. That pretty much means ALL of us. You can't finger one group as being responsible for someone's decisions/policies and dismiss another group that is responsible for making those decisions/policies possible in the first place. If it makes you feel better to say "oh I don't support Bush, the war, etc." fine, but you do support it if you're paying taxes. We all do. And we ALL need to have a "good look at ourselves", not just Bush voters.
authority definitely needs to be more answerable to their voters... rather than making laws that mean they can't be accountable :eek:
Governments tend to see themselves as seperate to their people and that's not a good thing.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Comments
That is great, it is good to question authority. We all did it in college. Question it, but respect it. I would love to see you start pedaling anti-Communist party propaganda via the written word and attempting to publish it in China. Good luck with that.
And I am telling you right now, Google is blocking certain websites from your viewing, you just don't know they are out there.
Also, giving us an example of a child being thrown out of school for wearing a tee shirt that read "Bush is a Terrorist" is not doing anything for me. This child was promoting terrorism; a federal offense.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
People have to earn my respect. It doesn't come pre-packaged.
I'm a foreigner in this country. If I was in the U.S and started publishing anti-government propaganda there the results would be the same.
Such as?
No he wasn't. He was calling Bush a terrorist - a pretty accurate observation if you ask me.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Are you toying with me again Trixie?
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Why, I am offended.
I would neeevvvvveerrrr do something as manipulative as that.
The nerve.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
your words are quite possibly the most authoratative i have read.
I don't know if you were paying attention, but the people of America DID support the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They only turned on it the last few years, and when they did, they threw the party responsible out of every office in the country. Can you do that in China?
Please, since you have so many examples of oppression in the US, tell me what wonderful freedoms you have in China that we lack here? I'm dying to know.
I love that you're advocating forced sterilization and abortion in the same posts that you talk about how free the Chinese are... free to decide everything except how many kids to have, what arts are acceptable, what religion to practice, what newspapers to read... but they at least get to... what? What freedoms do these Chinese people have that I should be envying?
No. You're wrong. The people of America and Britain did not support the invasion of Iraq. There was massive opposition to the war across both sides of the pond. Massive, unprecedented opposition, which saw millions take to the streets. I was one of those people.
And what's this about throwing the party responsible for it out of office? Are you talking about the recent election which took place 5 years after the event? Please elaborate.
1. There are too many people in the world and the environment cannot sustain them all. Do you deny this?
2. Regarding censorship of the arts, as far as I know rock music has never been popular in China. It's just not really a part of the culture here. Even so, It's possible to purchase pretty much anything now with the internet. I won't deny that there is state control here, but then I don't see it being considerably different anywhere else. It's like with the media. In America you have the illusion of a free and independent media. But if you've read your Chomsky then you'll know that this isn't really true.
Meanwhile:
Pearl Jam censored by AT&T, calls for a neutral 'Net
'...The incident happened during a Lollapalooza webcast over at AT&T's "Blue Room" media showcase. Pearl Jam's performance of their big 90's hit "Daughter" morphed into the melody from Pink Floyd's "The Wall," and Eddie Vedder served up a pair of anti-Bush lyrics to the tune. "George Bush, leave this world alone," he sang. "George Bush, find yourself another home."
Fans at the event got to hear the words in all their glory, but in the webcast, the lines were censored—AT&T made the decision to silence them, apparently believing that they would prove offensive to listeners. When Pearl Jam found out about the censorship, the band posted a strongly-worded message on its web site...'
Wal-Mart's CD censorship violates free speech
http://media.www.vanderbiltorbis.com/media/storage/paper983/news/2002/03/27/UndefinedSection/WalMarts.Cd.Censorship.Violates.Free.Speech-2471337.shtml
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/01.09.97/walmart-music-9702.html
'..In some areas of the country, Wal-Mart is the only place to buy CDs or tapes. While it is well known that Wal-Mart doesn't carry labeled CDs, the New York Times recently detailed in a front-page story how the chain and other big retailers are having an insidious effect on music and movie production. Like cancerous cells, adulterated censored CDs are proliferating in Wal-Mart's bins, in many cases without being identified as such.
In some cases, CDs are altered to bleep out "bad" words. For instance, the cover of a White Zombie disc, Supersexy Swingin' Sounds, was cleaned up by airbrushing a bikini onto a nude model reclining in a hammock (even though no naughty bits were visible). A song on the back of Primitive Radio Gods' Rocket CD is identified as "Motherfker" in the aforementioned record store, but as "Mother" at Wal-Mart.
The New York Times also identified creepier instances of corporate power being used to suppress ideas. Wal-Mart won't carry Sheryl Crow's new record because she chides the company for allegedly selling guns to children. The figures of Jesus and the Devil flanking John Mellencamp on the cover of his new record, Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky, are airbrushed out of the copies available at Wal-Mart. Mellancamp reportedly OK'd the change in the interest of record sales.
In a sanitized world, apparently, we can't acknowledge moral conflict. Since then, Usenet newsgroups have been buzzing with calls to "Boycott Wal-Mart!" and dialogues over whether it's really censorship if the pressure on the artists comes from private corporations rather than the government...'
Wal-Mart Sells "Sanitized" Music, Film
'Titles like Nirvana's "Incesticide" won't be found on any Wal-Mart shelves, while another Nirvana title, "Rape Me" has been downgraded to "Waif Me." Dozens of rap and hard rock artists have cleaned up their lyrics to meet Wal-Mart's family-oriented standards. John Mellencamp's latest CD, "Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky" shows the artist with two children and a dog. In the background on either side are faded drawings of Jesus and the Devil. The background on the Wal-Mart case is airbrushed out...'
3. People are free to practice any religion here. The fact is, Christianity has never managed to get a foothold in China despite centuries of effort from Christian missionaries. This just isn't a Christian land. People here practice, Buddhism first and foremost, Islam, and some animist/shamanic beliefs. There are churches in every major city in China but it will never gain the popularity that it has in the West, just as Islam will never be a major player in the West.
4. As for freedom in the day-to-day lives of people - which is what I was talking about initially, would you disagree that people in Spain live freer, less pressured, and more laid-back lives than people in Britain or the U.S? I don't think that anyone could argue that they don't. I've been to many countries in the world and in my experience people here have a lot of freedom in their day-to-day lives. There's less pressure to 'succeed'. There's fewer restrictions here - whether for good or ill; people can smoke anywhere, there's lax - to the point of being practically non-existent - traffic laws, they are not heavily taxed, e.t.c.. People here are happier. Try traveling around London for a day and see how happy and content people are there - every fucker has a long face. Not so here. People here are some of the happiest, friendliest people I've met - the same goes for those in India.
Anyway, just my opinion.
Is there anything in the US that parallels the persecution of the Falon Gong in China?
It's true that the media is biased, but this is due to profit interests. AT&T is not interested in being perceived as having anything to do with chastising of the president as that could divide its customers.
At any rate, you talk of reading Chomsky instead. Have you considered standing on the corner of a Chinese intersection and reciting literature that is critical of the government? Happens here all the time. I guess maybe the fascist police are too busy torturing religious dissidents to do anything about it.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War
'..Within the United States, popular opinion on the war has varied significantly with time. Although there was significant opposition to the idea in the months preceding the attack, polls taken during the invasion showed that a majority of Americans supported their country's action. However, public opinion had shifted by 2004 to a majority believing that the invasion was a mistake, and has remained so since then...
The opposition to the war manifested itself most visibly in a series of global protests against the Iraq War during February 2003, just before the Iraq invasion starting on March 20, 2003.
"Poll results available from Gallup International, as well as local sources for most of Europe, West and East, showed that support for a war carried out "unilaterally by America and its allies" did not rise above 11 percent in any country. Support for a war if mandated by the UN ranged from 13 percent (Spain) to 51 percent (Netherlands)."
No. I can't speak Chinese. People would just give me funny looks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOAzbWtTJHg&feature=related
Sure there was opposition. But there are hundred of millions of people in America. Millions in the streets opposing is not a majority. America bought the bullshit, hook, line, and sinker. They supported the war going in. It took 2 years for them to realize it was a total clusterfuck... thus they voted against the Republicans. You really have no grasp on reality do you?
1. No, I don't. But I don't think forcing people to get abortions is the answer. Do you? Is that freedom? I do enjoy watching you wiggle when your absurd contradictions are exposed though.
2. So you acknowledge that in China the state controls information. Thank you.
Spain? I believe I asked you why China was so much more free than the US. Nice non-answer though. I never claimed the US topped Europe for freedom. I said it was bullshit to try and argue that China has more freedom than the US. The ability to smoke in public or run red lights doesn't exactly give me a boner. Being able to choose my career, vote on my leaders, and call Dubya Satan incarnate without being run over by a tank does though.
Exactly what I said. A majority of Americans supported it
Europe. Tell me where I said most Europeans supported the Iraq War?
You say that as though it was a good thing. Trust me, the fact that there are millions of gullible, unquestioning morons in your country is nothing to be proud of.
The fact that millions took to the streets in protest prior to the invasion was because they knew that the British and U.S governments had already taken the decision to invade and that they were blatantly lying to us.
Still...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_popular_opinion_of_invasion_of_Iraq
'An early January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before. Much of this appeared to be for the same reason that France and Germany opposed the war; namely the US public believing that the weapons inspectors should be given the time they need to complete their investigations. US officials downplayed this shift in public opinion, claiming that it was not a true reflection of the public mood.
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately'
Whatever you say tough guy.
So what solution/solutions do you propose then? That we begin settling on the moon?
If people know beforehand that they can't have more than one child then they'll take the necessary steps to avoid pregnancy beforehand. It's called responsibility. There are too many people in the world and not enough resources to go around. It's time that people began equating that with their desire to knock out two or 3 babies. I think a law restricting the amount of children a couple can have would be a good thing. You see, there's the future to consider. Not just the immediate future, but the long-term survival of our planet and our species. You may regard such ideas as backwards and barbaric, but I see them as forward-thinking and progressive.
Yeah, same as in the U.S.
I used the example of Spain as a comparison in order to show you that their are countries in this world where people live freer lives. There's far less control and pressure on people in many parts of the world than in the U.S, Spain being just one of these places.
Americans always begin frothing at the mouth when the subject of their supposed freedom is mentioned. It's pretty hilarious really.
People in China are free to choose their own careers.
You have a choice of voting between two candidates who both represent the same thing. I hope that gives you the boner that you crave.
I posted numerous examples of people in the U.S being arrested for wearing t-shirts criticizing George Bush. If the people in the U.S had protested outside Capital Hill for weeks on end and your beloved government had felt threatened, who's to say we wouldn't have seen tanks in the streets? It's already been shown that those in power in the U.S aren't averse to murdering their own citizens if they protest too much.
Go Team America!
You clearly have trouble understanding the English language. Read it again, slowly. Try not to blink.
From the same source:
"In a January 2003 CBS poll 64% of U.S. nationals had approved of military action against Iraq"
We could trade polls all night, but the fact is that the American people were far from universally opposed to the Iraq invasion. There was hardly uniform opposition that was ignored.
Same as the US. Yet you said China was MORE FREE. Not the same as.
I vote for education and easy access to birth control. But I stop short of forcing surgery on unwilling citizens. But, you know, I'm weird like that. I'm still waiting to hear you explain how forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will is freedom. Please, humor me.
I don't deny that America has its problems. Europe sure has America beat for the most part. I'm hardly frothing at the mouth, and I think generally that patriotism is ridiculous. The only reason I responded to you is that saying China is more free is one of the dumbest things I've ever read here. It's a great country with a rich history, but its world-renowned for human rights abuses, vicious suppression of dissent (and no matter how many links you post of some small town sheriff trying to rattle a kid by arresting him for an anti-Bush shirt, the fact is those people are never convicted and certainly never killed or imprisoned), and complete government control of all information (again, the US has its problems there, but we've still got access to alternatives).
2 things stand out to me in this thread:
1. People have challened you to stand on a street corner there and rant against the government and leaders of China and see what happens. I'll do the same on the corner here in Chicago and we'll compare results.
2. I'm still dying to hear you tell me how forcing a woman to have a medical abortion against her will is freedom. Keep trying to dodge that one though, it's fun to see. You look like Sean Hannity when you do it.
I thought this was pretty clear:
"polls taken during the invasion showed that a majority of Americans supported their country's action."
You said:
"There's no real democracy in the West. As an obvious example; both the populations of the U.S and Britain were unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Did that make any difference? Nope. The Government went ahead with the invasion anyway,"
How does a poll saying that until 2004 most Americans supported their country's actions prove that in 2003 the US was unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq?
I thought this was pretty clear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_popular_opinion_of_invasion_of_Iraq
'Although there was significant opposition to the idea in the months preceding the attack..'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...vasion_of_Iraq
'An early January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before. Much of this appeared to be for the same reason that France and Germany opposed the war; namely the US public believing that the weapons inspectors should be given the time they need to complete their investigations. US officials downplayed this shift in public opinion, claiming that it was not a true reflection of the public mood.
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately'
I answered this above.
Please point out to me where I said that China is more free than the U.S. I said that people here live freer lives. A lot of things are controlled here that aren't controlled in the U.S, but people can breathe a lot easier here. The society and culture here isn't as geared towards controlling every aspect of everyone's lives the way it is in Britain and the U.S. I'm talking about the day-to-day lives of ordinary people, not the struggles of political activists up against the government. You see, despite what a lot of outsiders may think, life here doesn't really resemble George Orwell's 1984. And besides, Winston Smith would stick out like a sore thumb over here.
O.k. Here's the deal: You stand on a street corner in Chicago and rant against the government and leaders in Mandarin Chinese, and I'll stand on a street here and rant against the government and leaders in English. Deal?
I never said anything about abortions. You raised that topic.
anyone who believes U.S.-led propaganda against China is full of it. Yes, Chinese peoples' freedom is questionable, but not to the extent that the U.S. government wants you to believe. Also, we shouldn't be comparing our freedom to that of China's. Why can't we just actually have freedom? Why can we only have the SAME amount of freedom as China, no more?
unifiedscene, you like to waste your time arguing irrelevant figures - you claim that the Americans had the ability to vote out the party that started the war, and we did so... what the hell are you talking about? The majority of Americans wanted our troops out a long time ago, why are they not home yet? The Democrats did NOTHING different. And, in fact, we didn't have the ability to vote in anyone else - we had a choice: Republican or Democrat.
We don't live in a true democracy, we live in an oppressive regime, and most Americans don't realize that our own government is the only one who doesn't want us to be free. The Iranians actually do want freedom for Americans, Al Qaeda wants freedom for Americans, everyone does. Most people actually believe in the American people to an extent - but the more we vote in bullshit administrations and these type of authoritative figures that are supposed to represent us, the more that people begin to think we really are just stupid fucks.
yeah, random post at 5am, don't bother me.
No.
You cannot site Wikipedia for "fact"
I can go on there and say the sky is polka dot and smells of pastrami.
No, no, no.
No.
:rolleyes:
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
you sound like my profs trix.
you can quote wiki, but we will laugh at you and mark you down considerably
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That's why the people who voted for Bush, and are now the ones having so much to say here about Obama, need to have a good look at themselves. They are responsible for the last 8 years. Not me. Them. I voted Obama, and i am (along with anyone else who voted him), responsible for allowing him the power to make any future decisions.
So yeah Outlaw, that's not why they think we are stupid fucks. They think we are stupid fucks because of our foregin policies. Our foreign policy is based completely on national self-interest, not international cooperation. They can see through our speeches of how we help the world. Sure we do, but we also don't mind helping ourselves to the resources and well being of the world.
They think we are stupid fucks because we're just five percent of the world's population, yet we consume 23% of its energy and in the past we have not seemed to be to bothered by any of these statistics. They think we are stupid fucks because we insist on giving total support for Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Disgusting. We should be more outraged than we are. I see more anger here for a stupid freaking website like eharmony not having provision for gays to find their partners, or more outrage for fat fucks flying on airplanes, not having to pay for two seats, than i do for what what is happening to the palestinian people.
They think we are stupid fucks because while our country is falling apart before our eyes, we can't see it, and continue to be arrogant, conceited, and think we are better than anyone else.
And the clincher? Because we are not already hated enough :rolleyes: About 3000 innocent civilians were killed on 9/11. So what do we do in retaliation? Does anyone even know any accurate figures on how many people we have killed?
Meanwhile, while we are off murdering hundreds of thousands of people to avenge the 3000 lives lost on 9/11, (when will we be happy? When the rations is 1:1000?), 30,000 AMERICANS a year die from guns realted injuries, and we continue to turn a bllind eye and refuse to consider any sort of regulations. Yep, the rest of the world thinks we are stupid fucks for that too.
I am fiercely loyal to my country, but i am not stupid. We've got a long way to go to dig ourselves out of this hole we are in and to regain the respect of the rest of the world again.
Have not posted in a while, excuse the big post. Hard to say what i wanted to in a few words.
when and if you get the time. could someone please post a checklist of what qualifies one person over another, with regards to how many children they can have?
also....could you post the checklist without being an authortative figure?
sidenote: i was thinking about this topic during the weekend. i do have a problem with people i label as "know it nothings".
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Governments tend to see themselves as seperate to their people and that's not a good thing.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you