http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...vasion_of_Iraq
'An early January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before. Much of this appeared to be for the same reason that France and Germany opposed the war; namely the US public believing that the weapons inspectors should be given the time they need to complete their investigations. US officials downplayed this shift in public opinion, claiming that it was not a true reflection of the public mood.
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately'
Read my edits. You said:
"There's no real democracy in the West. As an obvious example; both the populations of the U.S and Britain were UNANIMOUSLY opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Did that make any difference? Nope. The Government went ahead with the invasion anyway,"
How does a poll saying that until 2004 most Americans supported their country's actions prove that in 2003 the US was unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq? I never claimed there was no opposition. I claimed your statements about the people being unanimously against invasion while the government did it anyway were bullshit. Bush has done a lot of horrible things as president, but his lies worked and America largely supported him when he went into Iraq.
Where? Please direct me to it, as I must have missed it. I've seen you argue that overpopulation is a problem and that forced abortion might force people to use contraception. But you have yet to explain how once a woman becomes pregnant, it is ok and a symbol of freedom to force her to have an abortion.
O.k. Here's the deal: You stand on a street corner in Chicago and rant against the government and leaders in Mandarin Chinese, and I'll stand on a street here and rant against the government and leaders in English. Deal?
I never said anything about abortions. You raised that topic.
What difference does the language make? Are you saying that the only reason you can do that in China without being killed is if noone understands what you're saying? Give me some time to brush up on my Chinese and I'll do it... the reaction in Chicago will be exactly the same.
I raised abortion as an example of how China is not freer than the US. Forced medical procedures are pretty terrible and trump any example you can give of some kid getting rattled by local cops.
You don't get it do you? I'm not saying the US invented freedom, has the most freedom, or is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Most of Europe is better off on this front. I'm saying it's fucking ridiculous to say China has more freedoms for its people than the US. That's all.
authority definitely needs to be more answerable to their voters... rather than making laws that mean they can't be accountable :eek:
Governments tend to see themselves as seperate to their people and that's not a good thing.
Indeed. But I don't think we have any laws that make them unaccountable aside from presidential pardon laws (and I'm not exactly sure what the limits on those are)...any one of these people could be charged with war crimes (and god knows what else), impeached, and even put in jail. It's just a matter of the people putting pressure on their reps to get it done.
and HERE'S the thing many refuse to accept... WE ARE ACTUALLY RIGHT BEHIND YOU! If America wants to be a force for good in the world, you won't have many sane people debating that or fighting against you! We want America to be what it CAN be... not what it HAS been! And right now, you have a fresh start in many of the worlds view. Sure it will take a while to forgive and forget... but just prove us wrong
That's the greatest tragedy of the Bush admin. We had this kind of unswerving international support on 9/12/01. We could have used that to make real strides around the world in fighting injustice and terrorism and intolerance.
Instead we blew it all because our moron of a President talked the 51% of this country's citizens that are also morons into believing war in Iraq would help with that.
That's the greatest tragedy of the Bush admin. We had this kind of unswerving international support on 9/12/01. We could have used that to make real strides around the world in fighting injustice and terrorism and intolerance.
Instead we blew it all because our moron of a President talked the 51% of this country's citizens that are also morons into believing war in Iraq would help with that.
Agreed! I know many of you couldn't stand Clinton... but I really really believe that were he still in power things would have been entirely different! He would have definitely used that good will and got everyone to work together.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Agreed! I know many of you couldn't stand Clinton... but I really really believe that were he still in power things would have been entirely different! He would have definitely used that good will and got everyone to work together.
I loved Clinton. I campaigned for Nader because I thought Gore and Bush were the same. Man was that a ridiculous mistake. But I was 18 and stoned and as whiny-rebellious and idealistic as the really annoying people around here Gore would have been so much different from Bush and we would not be where we are now.
It seemed to me like a huge chunk of the rest of the world were rejoycing when Obama won through though. Do you agree with this? I still think there are a bunch of people worldwide who admire the good things we have done but absolutely hate the bad things. I mean hell, we live in a democracy right? We choose our Government, so we are ultimately responsible for the fucked up decisions our government makes. We can't have it both ways, we can't get on our soapboxes and go on about the virtues of our democracy without accepting responsibility.
That's why the people who voted for Bush, and are now the ones having so much to say here about Obama, need to have a good look at themselves. They are responsible for the last 8 years. Not me. Them. I voted Obama, and i am (along with anyone else who voted him), responsible for allowing him the power to make any future decisions.
So yeah Outlaw, that's not why they think we are stupid fucks. They think we are stupid fucks because of our foregin policies. Our foreign policy is based completely on national self-interest, not international cooperation. They can see through our speeches of how we help the world. Sure we do, but we also don't mind helping ourselves to the resources and well being of the world.
They think we are stupid fucks because we're just five percent of the world's population, yet we consume 23% of its energy and in the past we have not seemed to be to bothered by any of these statistics. They think we are stupid fucks because we insist on giving total support for Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Disgusting. We should be more outraged than we are. I see more anger here for a stupid freaking website like eharmony not having provision for gays to find their partners, or more outrage for fat fucks flying on airplanes, not having to pay for two seats, than i do for what what is happening to the palestinian people.
They think we are stupid fucks because while our country is falling apart before our eyes, we can't see it, and continue to be arrogant, conceited, and think we are better than anyone else.
And the clincher? Because we are not already hated enough :rolleyes: About 3000 innocent civilians were killed on 9/11. So what do we do in retaliation? Does anyone even know any accurate figures on how many people we have killed?
Meanwhile, while we are off murdering hundreds of thousands of people to avenge the 3000 lives lost on 9/11, (when will we be happy? When the rations is 1:1000?), 30,000 AMERICANS a year die from guns realted injuries, and we continue to turn a bllind eye and refuse to consider any sort of regulations. Yep, the rest of the world thinks we are stupid fucks for that too.
I am fiercely loyal to my country, but i am not stupid. We've got a long way to go to dig ourselves out of this hole we are in and to regain the respect of the rest of the world again.
Have not posted in a while, excuse the big post. Hard to say what i wanted to in a few words.
If it makes you feel better to say "oh I don't support Bush, the war, etc." fine, but you do support it if you're paying taxes. We all do. And we ALL need to have a "good look at ourselves", not just Bush voters.
People pay taxes because they have no choice but to pay taxes. I lived and worked in England and paid taxes, but believe it or not, I was not for the war. I understand that some of the tax money that was deducted from my salary every month went towards paying for bullets and bombs to kill women and children in the Middle East, but I didn't support it.
How does a poll saying that until 2004 most Americans supported their country's actions prove that in 2003 the US was unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq?
The poll didn't say that until 2004 most Americans supported their country's actions. What it said was the following:
'A January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before...
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately.'
And maybe I shouldn't have used the word unanimous. Perhaps the word 'overwhelming' would have been more appropriate.
you have yet to explain how once a woman becomes pregnant, it is ok and a symbol of freedom to force her to have an abortion.
I never said it was o.k and a symbol of freedom to force women to have abortions. I said I agreed with the one child policy. Any negative side effects from a one-child policy are the result of personal responsibility.
it's fucking ridiculous to say China has more freedoms for its people than the US. That's all.
I never said that. I said that people live freer lives here. There's a difference.
Edit: Actually, people here probably aren't really any more or less free in their day-to-day lives than they are anywhere else. And of course, there's a lot of poverty here too. There's also massive wealth in certain areas. And I know that there's lot's of restrictions here that you won't encounter in the U.S, but generally you just won't encounter it here. Just like most other countries, the government go about their business, and the people go about theirs.
I loved Clinton. I campaigned for Nader because I thought Gore and Bush were the same. Man was that a ridiculous mistake. But I was 18 and stoned and as whiny-rebellious and idealistic as the really annoying people around here Gore would have been so much different from Bush and we would not be where we are now.
Clinton was guilty of war crimes too. Don't forget that he bombed the shit out of Iraq within two weeks of being elected and then oversaw a sustained daily bombing campaign against the Iraqi people that lasted 10 years. He also oversaw the sanctions against Iraq which resulted directly in an estimated half a million child deaths.
I never said that. I said that people live freer lives here. There's a difference.
Edit: Actually, people here probably aren't really any more or less free in their day-to-day lives than they are anywhere else. And of course, there's a lot of poverty here too. There's also massive wealth in certain areas. And I know that there's lot's of restrictions here that you won't encounter in the U.S, but generally you just won't encounter it here. Just like most other countries, the government go about their business, and the people go about theirs.
That's all I was getting at. I don't get much government interference in my daily life, and the day-to-day living probably is pretty much the same in either country. But I read the freer lives thing to include things like political expression, access to information, etc. It seems that's not what you meant by it, so let's make peace and hit those brothels!
Clinton was guilty of war crimes too. Don't forget that he bombed the shit out of Iraq within two weeks of being elected and then oversaw a sustained daily bombing campaign against the Iraqi people that lasted 10 years. He also oversaw the sanctions against Iraq which resulted directly in an estimated half a million child deaths.
No American president has ever been innocent of this kind of thing. We're a violent country, sadly. It often overtakes our better points when the US acts in the heat of passion. That said, Clinton's response would have been far more humane and measured than Dubya's was. As would Gore's. As will Obama's.
People pay taxes because they have no choice but to pay taxes. I lived and worked in England and paid taxes, but believe it or not, I was not for the war. I understand that some of the tax money that was deducted from my salary every month went towards paying for bullets and bombs to kill women and children in the Middle East, but I didn't support it.
Of course you don't morally support it, but you did financially support it. People aren't forced to pay taxes...it's illegal not to pay them, but no one is actually forcing you to pay them. You can just get a job that pays you under the table. People do it all the time. Sometimes they go to jail for it, but it's certainly an option.
Of course you don't morally support it, but you did financially support it. People aren't forced to pay taxes...it's illegal not to pay them, but no one is actually forcing you to pay them. You can just get a job that pays you under the table. People do it all the time. Sometimes they go to jail for it, but it's certainly an option.
what are you talking about? that's a stupid solution to an actual serious problem.
you can't say we are directly responsible for anything. we are indirectly responsible for it through our silence and complacency (and even then, you can't speak on behalf of us because some of the people on this forum actually aren't silent), but at the end of the day it's the fault of the administration.
if you want to attack the much larger problem: that is, people being ignorant enough to have actually believed in lies from the administration, etc, then you're crossing into a much more ideal scenario of trying to solve that problem. I was speaking more towards the fact that our administrations have not been truly representative of us in the world.
you can't say we are directly responsible for anything. we are indirectly responsible for it through our silence and complacency (and even then, you can't speak on behalf of us because some of the people on this forum actually aren't silent), but at the end of the day it's the fault of the administration.
It seemed to me like a huge chunk of the rest of the world were rejoycing when Obama won through though. Do you agree with this?
I was talking more about the past, not really this election.
I still think there are a bunch of people worldwide who admire the good things we have done but absolutely hate the bad things. I mean hell, we live in a democracy right? We choose our Government, so we are ultimately responsible for the fucked up decisions our government makes. We can't have it both ways, we can't get on our soapboxes and go on about the virtues of our democracy without accepting responsibility.
Yeah, that's basically what I was trying to imply. We can blame the Bush administration, but at the end of the day, when the leaders end up the same and we don't truly cause any change, then what are people supposed to think of us?
In other words, we try to tell the rest of the world to excuse the last 8 years because Bush was horrible and we all disliked him. but if for the next 4-8 years, not much difference happens, what do we say then? When is it time to finally accept responsibility?
That's why the people who voted for Bush, and are now the ones having so much to say here about Obama, need to have a good look at themselves. They are responsible for the last 8 years. Not me. Them. I voted Obama, and i am (along with anyone else who voted him), responsible for allowing him the power to make any future decisions.
Which is why a representative democracy actually has many flaws.
So yeah Outlaw, that's not why they think we are stupid fucks. They think we are stupid fucks because of our foregin policies. Our foreign policy is based completely on national self-interest, not international cooperation. They can see through our speeches of how we help the world. Sure we do, but we also don't mind helping ourselves to the resources and well being of the world.
That's basically what I was saying. The thing is though: the rest of the world tries not to judge Americans based on Bush's speeches. Bush's speeches actually aren't our speeches. However, if we reach a point where all our leaders are virtually the same (ie. self-serving, etc), then they reach the conclusion that we're either stupid because we are constantly deceived by leaders, or actually inherently evil for voting them in.
They think we are stupid fucks because we're just five percent of the world's population, yet we consume 23% of its energy and in the past we have not seemed to be to bothered by any of these statistics. They think we are stupid fucks because we insist on giving total support for Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Disgusting. We should be more outraged than we are. I see more anger here for a stupid freaking website like eharmony not having provision for gays to find their partners, or more outrage for fat fucks flying on airplanes, not having to pay for two seats, than i do for what what is happening to the palestinian people.
I am fiercely loyal to my country, but i am not stupid. We've got a long way to go to dig ourselves out of this hole we are in and to regain the respect of the rest of the world again.
Have not posted in a while, excuse the big post. Hard to say what i wanted to in a few words.
You do know that I basically agree with everything you said in this post, right?
Something smells fishy up in here.
Is there someone here that used to be someone else?
Hmm?
I think so.
I will wait to see if they explode verbally all over me or someone that is close to me.
Time will tell.
Happy day everyone.
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
People pay taxes because they have no choice but to pay taxes. I lived and worked in England and paid taxes, but believe it or not, I was not for the war. I understand that some of the tax money that was deducted from my salary every month went towards paying for bullets and bombs to kill women and children in the Middle East, but I didn't support it.
I've always thought it be a great idea to put the Statue of Liberty on Ebay to help cover the cost of the war. Or to melt it down for armor and ammo.
Something smells fishy up in here.
Is there someone here that used to be someone else?
Hmm?
I think so.
I will wait to see if they explode verbally all over me or someone that is close to me.
Time will tell.
Happy day everyone.
If it is, there have been some cataclysmic developments in that person's posting style.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
That's all I was getting at. I don't get much government interference in my daily life, and the day-to-day living probably is pretty much the same in either country. But I read the freer lives thing to include things like political expression, access to information, etc. It seems that's not what you meant by it, so let's make peace and hit those brothels!
Maybe you don't get government interference, but I, and several other people I know, do. We don't live free lives here, and we don't have the freedom of things like political expression or access to information.
Something smells fishy up in here.
Is there someone here that used to be someone else?
Hmm?
I think so.
I will wait to see if they explode verbally all over me or someone that is close to me.
Time will tell.
Happy day everyone.
Of course you don't morally support it, but you did financially support it. People aren't forced to pay taxes...it's illegal not to pay them, but no one is actually forcing you to pay them. You can just get a job that pays you under the table. People do it all the time. Sometimes they go to jail for it, but it's certainly an option.
If you live in England you have no choice. Taxes are automatically deducted from your wages by the company you work for.
I've always thought it be a great idea to put the Statue of Liberty on Ebay to help cover the cost of the war. Or to melt it down for armor and ammo.
That may upset the French a bit.
Though I've always thought they should turn the statue around as isn't it facing the wrong way? She's been holding a torch of enlightenment and liberty to the fish of the Atlantic for the past 120 years.
Or, seeing as it's supposed to welcome immigrants to the U.S, then how about move it down to the Mexican border?
Comments
Read my edits. You said:
"There's no real democracy in the West. As an obvious example; both the populations of the U.S and Britain were UNANIMOUSLY opposed to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Did that make any difference? Nope. The Government went ahead with the invasion anyway,"
How does a poll saying that until 2004 most Americans supported their country's actions prove that in 2003 the US was unanimously opposed to the invasion of Iraq? I never claimed there was no opposition. I claimed your statements about the people being unanimously against invasion while the government did it anyway were bullshit. Bush has done a lot of horrible things as president, but his lies worked and America largely supported him when he went into Iraq.
Where? Please direct me to it, as I must have missed it. I've seen you argue that overpopulation is a problem and that forced abortion might force people to use contraception. But you have yet to explain how once a woman becomes pregnant, it is ok and a symbol of freedom to force her to have an abortion.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=6018334&postcount=71
"People here are freer than in the US."
What difference does the language make? Are you saying that the only reason you can do that in China without being killed is if noone understands what you're saying? Give me some time to brush up on my Chinese and I'll do it... the reaction in Chicago will be exactly the same.
I raised abortion as an example of how China is not freer than the US. Forced medical procedures are pretty terrible and trump any example you can give of some kid getting rattled by local cops.
You don't get it do you? I'm not saying the US invented freedom, has the most freedom, or is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Most of Europe is better off on this front. I'm saying it's fucking ridiculous to say China has more freedoms for its people than the US. That's all.
That's the greatest tragedy of the Bush admin. We had this kind of unswerving international support on 9/12/01. We could have used that to make real strides around the world in fighting injustice and terrorism and intolerance.
Instead we blew it all because our moron of a President talked the 51% of this country's citizens that are also morons into believing war in Iraq would help with that.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I loved Clinton. I campaigned for Nader because I thought Gore and Bush were the same. Man was that a ridiculous mistake. But I was 18 and stoned and as whiny-rebellious and idealistic as the really annoying people around here
Easy tiger!
People pay taxes because they have no choice but to pay taxes. I lived and worked in England and paid taxes, but believe it or not, I was not for the war. I understand that some of the tax money that was deducted from my salary every month went towards paying for bullets and bombs to kill women and children in the Middle East, but I didn't support it.
The poll didn't say that until 2004 most Americans supported their country's actions. What it said was the following:
'A January 2003 poll showed rapidly decreasing support for an invasion, although there was still more public support than there was prior to the Gulf War a decade before...
A poll conducted at the time by The New York Times and CBS News released showed even less support for the US-led war. Approximately 2 out of 3 respondents wanted the government to wait for the UN inspections to end, and only 31% supported using military force immediately.'
And maybe I shouldn't have used the word unanimous. Perhaps the word 'overwhelming' would have been more appropriate.
I never said it was o.k and a symbol of freedom to force women to have abortions. I said I agreed with the one child policy. Any negative side effects from a one-child policy are the result of personal responsibility.
I never said that. I said that people live freer lives here. There's a difference.
Edit: Actually, people here probably aren't really any more or less free in their day-to-day lives than they are anywhere else. And of course, there's a lot of poverty here too. There's also massive wealth in certain areas. And I know that there's lot's of restrictions here that you won't encounter in the U.S, but generally you just won't encounter it here. Just like most other countries, the government go about their business, and the people go about theirs.
Clinton was guilty of war crimes too. Don't forget that he bombed the shit out of Iraq within two weeks of being elected and then oversaw a sustained daily bombing campaign against the Iraqi people that lasted 10 years. He also oversaw the sanctions against Iraq which resulted directly in an estimated half a million child deaths.
That's all I was getting at. I don't get much government interference in my daily life, and the day-to-day living probably is pretty much the same in either country. But I read the freer lives thing to include things like political expression, access to information, etc. It seems that's not what you meant by it, so let's make peace and hit those brothels!
No American president has ever been innocent of this kind of thing. We're a violent country, sadly. It often overtakes our better points when the US acts in the heat of passion. That said, Clinton's response would have been far more humane and measured than Dubya's was. As would Gore's. As will Obama's.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
you can't say we are directly responsible for anything. we are indirectly responsible for it through our silence and complacency (and even then, you can't speak on behalf of us because some of the people on this forum actually aren't silent), but at the end of the day it's the fault of the administration.
if you want to attack the much larger problem: that is, people being ignorant enough to have actually believed in lies from the administration, etc, then you're crossing into a much more ideal scenario of trying to solve that problem. I was speaking more towards the fact that our administrations have not been truly representative of us in the world.
and yeah, I know you weren't responding to me.
In other words, we try to tell the rest of the world to excuse the last 8 years because Bush was horrible and we all disliked him. but if for the next 4-8 years, not much difference happens, what do we say then? When is it time to finally accept responsibility? Which is why a representative democracy actually has many flaws. That's basically what I was saying. The thing is though: the rest of the world tries not to judge Americans based on Bush's speeches. Bush's speeches actually aren't our speeches. However, if we reach a point where all our leaders are virtually the same (ie. self-serving, etc), then they reach the conclusion that we're either stupid because we are constantly deceived by leaders, or actually inherently evil for voting them in. You do know that I basically agree with everything you said in this post, right?
Is there someone here that used to be someone else?
Hmm?
I think so.
I will wait to see if they explode verbally all over me or someone that is close to me.
Time will tell.
Happy day everyone.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
I've always thought it be a great idea to put the Statue of Liberty on Ebay to help cover the cost of the war. Or to melt it down for armor and ammo.
If you live in England you have no choice. Taxes are automatically deducted from your wages by the company you work for.
He he! A little birdy told me they charge the princely sum of $15. Start packing.
That may upset the French a bit.
Though I've always thought they should turn the statue around as isn't it facing the wrong way? She's been holding a torch of enlightenment and liberty to the fish of the Atlantic for the past 120 years.
Or, seeing as it's supposed to welcome immigrants to the U.S, then how about move it down to the Mexican border?