Patriotism

dg1979us · December 2006

angelica wrote:

If you mean what you say: "there is absolutely nothing wrong with embracing parts of your culture and society", then I agree with that. At the same time, when I see people using that argument to justify undermining of other countries, something unjustifiable is being justified.

I'm not sure why you'd argue against going beyond your roots. Maybe you could help me understand.

But your equating patriotism as ignorance. They arent the same thing. Undermining other countries isnt a sign of patriotism, its a sign of ignorance, or at least arrogance. Now sure, the ignorance might be wrapped in patriotism, but that doesnt actually mean its patriotism. Patriotism is having pride in your own country. Patrioism is not undermining other countries, they are different concepts.

Collin · December 2006

blackredyellow wrote:

If you haven't been to many other countries, that is like moving to a new town, eating at only one resturaunt, and declaring it the best in town.

My guess is he's never even been outside of the States, except for maybe Canada.

miller8966 · December 2006

Collin wrote:

My guess is he's never even been outside of the States, except for maybe Canada.

ive been to brazil.

What else would you like to know about the most important moving trainer on this board?

know1 · December 2006

Collin wrote:

My guess is he's never even been outside of the States, except for maybe Canada.

But who cares about that? If someone's been to 10 countries and another person only 2, is it really that big of a difference? There are a lot more countries than that in the world.

Furthermore, most countries are diverse within. If we dropped one person in an inner-city ghetto in America and another in Yellowstone Park and another in a small, rural town and another on Rodeo Drive for one week, would they all have the same experience of America?

Byrnzie · December 2006

angelica wrote:

I agree. I think it is key to embrace our roots as we expand our horizons and grow "higher", seeking to branch out and understand and commune with others. The key though is to go beyond our roots, while having integrated our roots.

I agree. I believe that just as everyone should know about 3 languages, we should also be encouraged to travel abroad and spend time with other cultures. This should be a fundamental part of our education.
(And I put my hand up and admit that I'm guilty of knowing only one language. It's something i aim to fix however).

angelica · December 2006

dg1979us wrote:

But your equating patriotism as ignorance. They arent the same thing. Undermining other countries isnt a sign of patriotism, its a sign of ignorance, or at least arrogance. Now sure, the ignorance might be wrapped in patriotism, but that doesnt actually mean its patriotism. Patriotism is having pride in your own country. Patrioism is not undermining other countries, they are different concepts.

How do you arrive at that I equate patriotism with ignorance?

Again, I wonder if you would indulge my curiosity about why would you argue against going beyond your roots?

Collin · December 2006

miller8966 wrote:

ive been to brazil.

What else would you like to know about the most important moving trainer on this board?

So that's Brazial and Canada you've been to and yet you're overly patriotic or even nationalistic and keep going on and on about how the US is the greatest country in the world. And that's complete bullshit, you have no idea what it's like in other countries so how can you say yours is the greatest?

Byrnzie · December 2006

know1 wrote:

But who cares about that? If someone's been to 10 countries and another person only 2, is it really that big of a difference? There are a lot more countries than that in the world.

Furthermore, most countries are diverse within. If we dropped one person in an inner-city ghetto in America and another in Yellowstone Park and another in a small, rural town and another on Rodeo Drive for one week, would they all have the same experience of America?

True. The beauty of America is that it is so vast. You can quite justifiably say that America has many different countries within it.

Collin · December 2006

know1 wrote:

But who cares about that? If someone's been to 10 countries and another person only 2, is it really that big of a difference? There are a lot more countries than that in the world.

I don't really care how many countries someone has been to, but if they keep saying their country is the greatest in the world well than that's just ignorance.

Furthermore, most countries are diverse within. If we dropped one person in an inner-city ghetto in America and another in Yellowstone Park and another in a small, rural town and another on Rodeo Drive for one week, would they all have the same experience of America?

No, they would not, but that's not my point.

mammasan · December 2006

know1 wrote:

I think Patriotism/Nationalism are bad concepts that I wish would go away.

I completely agree with.

know1 · December 2006

mammasan wrote:

I completely agree with.

Did you agree with the second part of my statement that equated Patriotism with keeping jobs "at home"?

ledvedderman · December 2006

I kind of had an awakening regarding patriotism just yesterday. I was standing outside work waiting for my carppol and this older black man, who lives next to my office, was on his porch taking down the flag and carefully rolling it up. He does this everynight just as the sun is going and when it's raining outside.

Here's a guy who in his 80's possibly has seen both the good and the bad of America. I'm sure he's been a victim of racism at one point or another in his long life, yet here he is showing great respect for the country.

While I do think that our country has it's very dark moments and rouge elements in our governement I think the general good of the people of this country is there.

I am ashamed of what is happening in this country now. I'm a firm believer that something very wrong within members of our own government had something to do with the assassination of JFK and with the events of 9/11, but if you look down Main Street USA after those events the flag and patriotism is what in the end brought this country back together.

It's too bad in both those examples the country was just as soon divided with wars that were a result of both of those dark days in our history.

Patriotism is something that brings the country back together when bad things happen. It's not putting a yellow magnet on your car saying you support the troops. We all do, no one wants a US soldier to die in combat but you don't need a yellow ribbon to say that. I think it says a lot about our country when people feel like they HAVE to put a yellow ribbon to say they support the troops.

Patriotism to me is also questioning what the government is doing. If we let them do whatever the heck they want, than it's up to the patriots to keep them in check so this country doesn't fall apart because of actions of a government.

dg1979us · December 2006

angelica wrote:

How do you arrive at that I equate patriotism with ignorance?

Again, I wonder if you would indulge my curiosity about why would you argue against going beyond your roots?

"At the same time, when I see people using that argument to justify undermining of other countries, something unjustifiable is being justified."

If I misunderstood what you meant by this line my apologies, but the way I understood it, it has nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do with ignorance or arrogance.

And Im not exactly sure what you mean by going beyond your roots. But what I was saying was, you can embrace the positive aspects of your own society and culture, while still appreciating and respecting other cultures. If thats what you mean by going beyond your roots, then I agree with ya.

angelica · December 2006

dg1979us wrote:

"At the same time, when I see people using that argument to justify undermining of other countries, something unjustifiable is being justified."

If I misunderstood what you meant by this line my apologies, but the way I understood it, it has nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do with ignorance or arrogance.

Specifically, when someone actually uses patriotism to justify the unjustifiable, I view that as them using patriotism to ill means. While patriotism and ignorance are separate concepts, when people cannot discriminate between them, and blur them, and use one to excuse the other, the pure purpose of patriotism is being distorted.

And Im not exactly sure what you mean by going beyond your roots. But what I was saying was, you can embrace the positive aspects of your own society and culture, while still appreciating and respecting other cultures. If thats what you mean by going beyond your roots, then I agree with ya.

Okay, I wanted clarification on that, because I am with you on the part about appreciating and respecting other cultures, and I was wondering why you would limit this concept, and the growth and expansion of doing this by on one hand standing behind it, but on another hand arguing against it.

Byrnzie · December 2006

ledvedderman wrote:

Patriotism is something that brings the country back together when bad things happen. It's not putting a yellow magnet on your car saying you support the troops. We all do, no one wants a US soldier to die in combat but you don't need a yellow ribbon to say that. I think it says a lot about our country when people feel like they HAVE to put a yellow ribbon to say they support the troops.

Patriotism to me is also questioning what the government is doing. If we let them do whatever the heck they want, than it's up to the patriots to keep them in check so this country doesn't fall apart because of actions of a government.

I'm not simply trying to be controversial here but I'd say that what you describe as patriotism here is something else altogether. Something more human and universal like compassion, or even a kind of stoic resolve.
Looked at a bit more philosophically, or even slightly askew - if there are patriots within every country in the world, and if these like-minded people have a tendency to behave in the same way in response to an event/tragedy like you describe, then does this not negate the individualistic and nationalistic aspect of 'Patriotism'?
I think these feelings go deeper than abstract concepts like 'country' and 'flag' and that these tags are pasted onto such basically human/universal feelings for unhealthy, and more often than not, political reasons.

CaterinaA · December 2006

blackredyellow wrote:

But according to dictionary.com, the defintion of patriotism is "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty."

By this definition I'm not a patriot either. But, I see nothing wrong with being fond of your country's culture or good doings. For example, I was born in Chile, raised in Venezuela and I'm currently living in Argentina. I feel a connection to each country, and when I was in school I would find the biggest waste of time to sing the anthem, and to pay respect to the flag and Simon Bolivar's statue and whatnot. I still think it's silly. Yet, I have to admit that when I listen to Venezuela's or Chile's anthem in a sports competition I feel something inside me, maybe nostalgia, maybe the memories of friends, relatives and good times come back all of a sudden...also since my father is Italian I have a strong connection to Italia's culture, as well. I guess I don't know where I'm from

.

Seriously, what I strongly disagree is with totalitarian visions, like "my country is the best". Such kind of statements are wrong to me, because you country is the best to you, given your preferences, your taste, the sociopolitical conditions of the country, the landscapes, the economic conditions of the country, the idiosyncracy of the country, and many other subjective factors (by subjetctive I refer to the weight or relevance you give to each aspect). In my case I don't feel proud of any of "my countries" per se, I can see and underline a good thing they are doing (likewise I stress the things that are not being done correctly), but I in general I tend to feel joy or whatever for personal or small collective achievements, like Italy winning the WC, Nalbandian's outstanding career, Borges' books, Neruda's poems, Venezuela's soccer improvements...

And the fact that our world is divided in countries is for administrative, organizational and practical reasons. The concept of a country (or Nation-Sate) is rather new, though, it begun to "become popular" in the end of the XIXth century, for geopolitical reasons, mainly.

dg1979us · December 2006

angelica wrote:

Specifically, when someone actually uses patriotism to justify the unjustifiable, I view that as them using patriotism to ill means. While patriotism and ignorance are separate concepts, when people cannot discriminate between them, and blur them, and use one to excuse the other, the pure purpose of patriotism is being distorted.

Okay, I wanted clarification on that, because I am with you on the part about appreciating and respecting other cultures, and I was wondering why you would limit this concept, and the growth and expansion of doing this by on one hand standing behind it, but on another hand arguing against it.

Im not arguing against it. I think its great to learn, respect, and appreciate other cultures. But I can do all these things while still respecting and appreciating my culture as well. I am just not exactly sure what you mean by going beyond your roots. If you mean ditching your roots, then I dont agree with you. If you simply mean learning about other cultures and understanding that there is more out there than just your little corner of the world, then I certainly agree with you.

Byrnzie · December 2006

dg1979us wrote:

Im not arguing against it. I think its great to learn, respect, and appreciate other cultures. But I can do all these things while still respecting and appreciating my culture as well. I am just not exactly sure what you mean by going beyond your roots. If you mean ditching your roots, then I dont agree with you. If you simply mean learning about other cultures and understanding that there is more out there than just your little corner of the world, then I certainly agree with you.

She made the point that our roots are internalized. We can't shake them off like old clothes.

angelica · December 2006

dg1979us wrote:

Im not arguing against it. I think its great to learn, respect, and appreciate other cultures. But I can do all these things while still respecting and appreciating my culture as well. I am just not exactly sure what you mean by going beyond your roots. If you mean ditching your roots, then I dont agree with you. If you simply mean learning about other cultures and understanding that there is more out there than just your little corner of the world, then I certainly agree with you.

What I'm saying is do we want to put a cap on our growth and evolution? A tree is grounded by it's roots as it expands and branches out. I would not suggest ditching one's roots, because that is plain old unhealthy. And I would not want to limit growing and moving beyond one's roots. They sky is the limit with true growth, evolution and expansion. The sky is the limit EXCEPT when people impose limits on their awareness based on their own preferences. This is not embracing roots, this is using one's roots to strangle growth. It is misusing one's roots in a sense. However each choice is valid for reasons within the individual. When others choose to strangle growth and understanding, I support their right to choose. It is what it is. However, I don't limit my own growth and understanding. Rather, I deliberately open myself up to understand truths that are not natural to me, therefore experiencing understanding beyond my roots.

mammasan · December 2006

know1 wrote:

Did you agree with the second part of my statement that equated Patriotism with keeping jobs "at home"?

Some what. I get mad when jobs are taken over seas not because an American is loosing their job but because a person is loosing their job. It also angers me that this was done because their employer wants to exploit the population of some 3rd world country in order to increase their profits.

Patriotism

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