Too much testosterone!

Heineken Helen · May 2007

Boss302 wrote:

I saw this on a woman's car the other day. She was pulling into the law firm next to my company. I'm betting she has a few opinions on the subject.

"Women who to be equal to men lack ambition."

Can you track her down and give her the link to this thread please?

Jeanie · May 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's just too easy to forget and take it for granted though... and I don't like saying I feel lucky either... cos it's not luck. It's just something we should ALL expect.

Yes! Everyone has the right to a fair days pay for a fair days work, and equal opportunity to participate in the education, religion, and the politics of their world. It's something that I would dearly love to see in my lifetime.

Boss302 · May 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

Can you track her down and give her the link to this thread please?

haha...I'll do what I can.

After all...its like Tammy Wynette says, I'm only a man.

Jeanie · May 2007

NMyTree wrote:

Boobies.....yippie

:rolleyes: too easy!!

Jeanie · May 2007

Boss302 wrote:

I saw this on a woman's car the other day. She was pulling into the law firm next to my company. I'm betting she has a few opinions on the subject.

"Women who to be equal to men lack ambition."

I'll bet!! :eek:
It's a shame that in order to succeed you have to be that ambitious!!
But she'd be bloody good to hear from! She'd have some stories I'll bet!

decides2dream · May 2007

Boss302 wrote:

I saw this on a woman's car the other day. She was pulling into the law firm next to my company. I'm betting she has a few opinions on the subject.

"Women who want to be equal to men lack ambition."

awesome!

yesterday at work i had a customer who was wearing a tshirt that said:

"this is what a feminist looks like."

i loved it, and of course i told her so.

Ahnimus · May 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

That enough rationality for ya Ahnimus?

I've already gone over this with reports from statistics canada, not infoplease.com, with Jeanie. She's obviously forgotten or ignored it.

baraka · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I've already gone over this with reports from statistics canada, not infoplease.com, with Jeanie. She's obviously forgotten or ignored it.

An article you might find of interest, Ahnimus

"Several intriguing behavioral studies add to the evidence that some sex differences in the brain arise before a baby draws its first breath."

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000363E3-1806-1264-980683414B7F0000&pageNumber=1&catID=2

macgyver06 · May 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

That’s the problem with the bloody world today. I was watching the news last night and noticed how it was a woman presenting but yet all the articles were about men arguing with eachother. The main news is the big election campaign… big, fat, rich, ugly men squabbling over who’s telling the most lies. Then it was about the new airport terminal and men arguing over who’s going to pay for it, well it won’t be coming out of their pockets anyway. Then there was something about the war in Iraq and I ain’t gonna start on that. ALL bloody men arguing about crap.

Women (and I’m not talking about those who already have more testosterone than your average mail) need to stop doing whatever it is we’re doing and force them all to grow up :mad:

Well that’s hopefully my rant for the day :rolleyes:

ya so get off your ass and start doing your part

whatever it may be...I HAVE NO CLUE

macgyver06 · May 2007

Jeanie wrote:

I love all people.

And I've got no problem with men. Think they're great!

Just wish things were more equal for both sexes.

i love you to!

Ahnimus · May 2007

baraka wrote:

An article you might find of interest, Ahnimus

"Several intriguing behavioral studies add to the evidence that some sex differences in the brain arise before a baby draws its first breath."

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000363E3-1806-1264-980683414B7F0000&pageNumber=1&catID=2

Thanks Baraka. I would point out some discrepency here.

"Among other things, these investigators found that parts of the frontal cortex, the seat of many higher cognitive functions, are bulkier in women than in men, as are parts of the limbic cortex, which is involved in emotional responses. In men, on the other hand, parts of the parietal cortex, which is involved in space perception, are bigger than in women, as is the amygdala, an almond-shaped structure that responds to emotionally arousing information--to anything that gets the heart pumping and the adrenaline flowing."

Shouldn't this be the opposite? In everything I've read the amygdala is larger in women than in men. And the frontal cortex... well, density is largely important there, and so size it's self doesn't indicate value. We should be careful how far we take this brain thing to say something about the individual. As neuroscientists well know, the brain of a white man, is different than the brain of an asian or black man. We can gender and race profile using some brain imaging, but I think that's dangerously close to stereotyping.

A fellow linked me an article to this website sciam.com (Scientific America) about the adolescent brain growth spurt in the frontal cortex. The article claimed that there was no growth during adolescence, contrary to Peter Griedd's discoveries and the whole of neuroscience which says that just prior to adolescence their is a spurt of thickening in the prefrontal cortex. This has been shown on MRI and explains the behavior of teenagers. But somehow this website was unaware of this and tried to argue that the brain of a 12 year old is the same as an adult brain. My trust in this website is null, though much of the article you linked is accurate.

Ahnimus · May 2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_are_stupid

Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them! is a slogan on a popular T-shirt by Florida company David and Goliath. The slogan is printed next to a cartoon image of a boy running away from five stones flying in his direction.

People magazine ran a story on the T-shirt, opening with a quote from a then 10 year-old girl, "I want to make boys feel bad because it's fun."[1]

The T-shirt was designed by company founder Todd Goldman, who started David and Goliath in 1999 with Boys are Smelly T-shirts. It now features clothes with a variety of slogans, such as Boys tell lies, poke them in the eyes! or The stupid factory, where boys are made. Boys are stupid ... has evolved into a successful object for merchandise, which includes all types of clothes, mugs, key chains, posters and other items. In 2005 Goldman published a book with the same title (ISBN 0-7611-3593-6). In 2006, it was translated and published in Russia.[6]

Goldman claims that the campaign against his company boosted its sales. According to the Wall Street Journal, the sales volume of David and Goliath was expected to rise to US$ 100 million in 2005, up from US$ 90 million in the previous year.

Surely, this can't be accepted by feminist groups, if the shirts read "Girls are stupid, make them do the dishes." Goldman would be missing his testicles after a feminist mawling.

Professor Linda Scott of the University of Illinois expressed support for the T-shirts as payback for boys' "bullying".

Some, including the National Organization for Women (NOW), generally discounted the issue as unimportant

Ganahal argued that the T-shirts are perceived as harmless fun by children and that sexism against women is a far more widespread and substantial problem in United States' society.

Well, it seems some individuals stand in the face of irrationality,

Glenn Sacks responded to criticism of the campaign, asserting that the criticism was dismissive of the feelings of boys. The idea that boys should laugh at the joke at their expense creates a "double bind" for boys.

The campaign against the line received support from several men's rights groups, such as the National Coalition of Free Men, but also from groups with broader agendas, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center.[9] Many critics of the T-shirts pointed out that similar slogans directed against girls or ethnic groups would be widely regarded as unacceptable.

The Canadian Children's Rights Council termed the slogan hate speech.

The slogan has also been criticized by Bernard Goldberg in his book, 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America, where Todd Goldman, the shirts' creator, was listed as number 97.

Honestly, statments like "This is a man's world" amongst all the other misandry in this thread, are like the shirt and don't help a fucking thing.

baraka · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Thanks Baraka. I would point out some discrepency here.

"Among other things, these investigators found that parts of the frontal cortex, the seat of many higher cognitive functions, are bulkier in women than in men, as are parts of the limbic cortex, which is involved in emotional responses. In men, on the other hand, parts of the parietal cortex, which is involved in space perception, are bigger than in women, as is the amygdala, an almond-shaped structure that responds to emotionally arousing information--to anything that gets the heart pumping and the adrenaline flowing."

Shouldn't this be the opposite? In everything I've read the amygdala is larger in women than in men. And the frontal cortex... well, density is largely important there, and so size it's self doesn't indicate value. We should be careful how far we take this brain thing to say something about the individual. As neuroscientists well know, the brain of a white man, is different than the brain of an asian or black man. We can gender and race profile using some brain imaging, but I think that's dangerously close to stereotyping.

I'm not formally schooled in the subject, so I honestly don't know the correct answer. Why don't you link me to the articles that suggest differently and I'll run both articles past my neuroscientist friend and see what he thinks.

I agree with being careful, or shall I say intelligent about how we interpret the data. Different brains work differently, no way is 'better'. A man and a woman may arrive at the same conclusion/answer to a complex math problem, but they might 'approach' it differently. Our brains find ways to compensate.

baraka · May 2007

One thing that struck me as very odd about the article & study: why would a toy truck have any meaning to a male monkey (or any monkey)? It's not like they know that a truck is a truck. What would be inherently masculine about a truck if you don't know what a truck is? Same with a ragdoll to a monkey. So, two other things come to mind as different between the two objects; color and texture. If you painted a toy truck light pink and dressed a ragdoll in bright primary colors, would you see any gender reversals in who chooses them? Boys play with 'dolls' too, ie action figures.

Ahnimus · May 2007

baraka wrote:

I'm not formally schooled in the subject, so I honestly don't know the correct answer. Why don't you link me to the articles that suggest differently and I'll run both articles past my neuroscientist friend and see what he thinks.

I agree with being careful, or shall I say intelligent about how we interpret the data. Different brains work differently, no way is 'better'. A man and a woman may arrive at the same conclusion/answer to a complex math problem, but they might 'approach' it differently. Our brains find ways to compensate.

Here is an excerpt from a much larger paper

Specifically,the female amygdala differs from the male in that it contains more densely packed and smaller neurons (Bubenik & Brown, 1973;Nishizuka & Arai, 1981); and smaller, closely packed neurons fire more easily and more frequently. This is significant as activation of the hypothalamus, for example, triggers and/or increases female sexual behavior including thrusting and sexual posturing even in the absence of a mate (Hartet al., 1985; Lisk, 1967, 1971; Maclean, 1973). The amygdala typically fires up and activates the hypothalamus. And the massive fiber pathway that connects the right and left amygdala, is 17% larger in women than men (Allen & Gorski, 1993). The tremendous expansion in the fiber pathways linking the two amygdala, provides these sexually active structures an enhanced capacity to communicate and to become mutually excited in the female brain. This also explains why females are generally more “emotional” than males (Joseph, 1996,2000a,b,).

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:2F90HRVk7FAJ:brainmind.com/1SexEvolutionAustralopithEtc.pdf+female+amygdala&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

At least it has citations

gue_barium · May 2007

edit: off-topic.

sort of.

baraka · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Here is an excerpt from a much larger paper

Specifically,the female amygdala differs from the male in that it contains more densely packed and smaller neurons (Bubenik & Brown, 1973;Nishizuka & Arai, 1981); and smaller, closely packed neurons fire more easily and more frequently. This is significant as activation of the hypothalamus, for example, triggers and/or increases female sexual behavior including thrusting and sexual posturing even in the absence of a mate (Hartet al., 1985; Lisk, 1967, 1971; Maclean, 1973). The amygdala typically fires up and activates the hypothalamus. And the massive fiber pathway that connects the right and left amygdala, is 17% larger in women than men (Allen & Gorski, 1993). The tremendous expansion in the fiber pathways linking the two amygdala, provides these sexually active structures an enhanced capacity to communicate and to become mutually excited in the female brain. This also explains why females are generally more “emotional” than males (Joseph, 1996,2000a,b,).

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:2F90HRVk7FAJ:brainmind.com/1SexEvolutionAustralopithEtc.pdf+female+amygdala&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

At least it has citations

:eek: This is so weird. I just finished reading this exact article.

I think I interpreted this differently than you. The portion you pasted says this, "the female amygdala differs from the male in that it contains more densely packed and smaller neurons" and this "And the massive fiber pathway that connects the right and left amygdala is 17% larger in women than men" Unless I am misunderstanding the excerpt, I don't see where it mentioned the size of the actual amygdala except in the first statement I quoted which simply stated that it contained more densely packed & smaller neurons.

Again, the brain is quite remarkable in the ability to utilize alternative pathways to accomplish a function when another pathway is absent or disrupted, so no 'brain-type' is superior to another.

Ahnimus · May 2007

baraka wrote:

:eek: This is so weird. I just finished reading this exact article.

I think I interpreted this differently than you. The portion you pasted says this, "the female amygdala differs from the male in that it contains more densely packed and smaller neurons" and this "And the massive fiber pathway that connects the right and left amygdala is 17% larger in women than men" Unless I am misunderstanding the excerpt, I don't see where it mentioned the size of the actual amygdala except in the first statement I quoted which simply stated that it contained more densely packed & smaller neurons.

Again, the brain is quite remarkable in the ability to utilize alternative pathways to accomplish a function when another pathway is absent or disrupted, so no 'brain-type' is superior to another.

Right, but sciam.com ignores these facts and implies that since men have larger amygdalas that it's cause for male aggression. Which simply is not true, the whole article is misleading in it's facts.

baraka · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Right, but sciam.com ignores these facts and implies that since men have larger amygdalas that it's cause for male aggression. Which simply is not true, the whole article is misleading in it's facts.

Then what is it that causes males to be aggressive? Could it be too much testosterone? I kid, of course.

Look, these studies can be used to throw stones at both men and women. Like I said two other times, the brain is quite remarkable in the ability to utilize alternative pathways to accomplish a function when another pathway is absent or disrupted. These same studies have been used to argue why women are not up to par with men when it comes to math and sciences. You even had the president of Harvard making such claims. http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/worldwide/story/0,9959,1392808,00.html

gue_barium · May 2007

baraka wrote:

:eek: This is so weird. I just finished reading this exact article.

I think I interpreted this differently than you. The portion you pasted says this, "the female amygdala differs from the male in that it contains more densely packed and smaller neurons" and this "And the massive fiber pathway that connects the right and left amygdala is 17% larger in women than men" Unless I am misunderstanding the excerpt, I don't see where it mentioned the size of the actual amygdala except in the first statement I quoted which simply stated that it contained more densely packed & smaller neurons.

Again, the brain is quite remarkable in the ability to utilize alternative pathways to accomplish a function when another pathway is absent or disrupted, so no 'brain-type' is superior to another.

Men "thrust" and sexually posture in the absence of a mate, too.

Too much testosterone!

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