How can Israel deal with the palestinians?

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  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    If you choose to see it that way that's your right. the fact remains that zionism is not a religious movement. I also don't think that zionism is incompatable with a Palestinian state. both peoples have legitimate claims to the land and a two state solution seems equitable to me and consistant with zionism.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    If you choose to see it that way that's your right. the fact remains that zionism is not a religious movement. I also don't think that zionism is incompatable with a Palestinian state. both peoples have legitimate claims to the land and a two state solution seems equitable to me and consistant with zionism.

    How is it not religious? Is Zionism looking out for me? Nope. I'm not a Jew.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Are French nationalists looking out for you? No, because you aren't French. Zionism is premised on the Jewish people's understanding of itself as a nation. This goes back to a time when religion and nationality were much more tied together. Your understanding of Judaism as only a religion is false. Even Jews who are anti-zionist such as those quoted elsewhere on the train do not deny that the Jews are a people.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    Are French nationalists looking out for you? No, because you aren't French. Zionism is premised on the Jewish people's understanding of itself as a nation. This goes back to a time when religion and nationality were much more tied together. Your understanding of Judaism as only a religion is false. Even Jews who are anti-zionist such as those quoted elsewhere on the train do not deny that the Jews are a people.

    We all are a people, and that's all that matters.

    I don't care who is french, jewish, german, it doesn't matter. All the same to me, and no "group" deserves special anything.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Ahnimus wrote:
    We all are a people, and that's all that matters.

    I don't care who is french, jewish, german, it doesn't matter. All the same to me, and no "group" deserves special anything.

    I respect that belief, but perhaps you can understand that a people with a unique culture that they value and would like to nurture, and who have also experienced two thousand years of near ceaseless repression might feel more comfortable having their fate in their own hands rather than waiting around for the world to catch up to your own utopian ideals.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    I respect that belief, but perhaps you can understand that a people with a unique culture that they value and would like to nurture, and who have also experienced two thousand years of near ceaseless repression might feel more comfortable having their fate in their own hands rather than waiting around for the world to catch up to your own utopian ideals.

    They sure picked a poor spot to do it, they had to have known, if not by common sense, then by their own scriptures that this is what would happen.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Also with regard to deserving anything special, I am saying just the opposite. As a Zionist I want only what the rights every other nation has to determine its own fate. Zionism isn't trying to get the Jewish people any sort of special treatment. It is trying to get the Jewish people equal treatment.
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Ahnimus wrote:
    They sure picked a poor spot to do it, they had to have known, if not by common sense, then by their own scriptures that this is what would happen.

    Israel is the home of the Jewish people. "Choosing" to establish a state anywhere other than in our homeland would be inauthentic.
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Also they certainly knew that there might be conflict but I truly believe that efforts were made to avoid it. Perhaps not everything that could have been done were done, and almost certainly a lot of things that shouldn't have been done were done, but the current conflict only seems unavoidable from our current perspectice. Furthermore, some things are important enough to fight for, and Zionism, at least to those of us who believe in it, is one of them.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    Also with regard to deserving anything special, I am saying just the opposite. As a Zionist I want only what the rights every other nation has to determine its own fate. Zionism isn't trying to get the Jewish people any sort of special treatment. It is trying to get the Jewish people equal treatment.

    I don't consider that to be equal treatment. IMO the only thing that makes a Jew a Jew is their religious belief. Is there a seperate lineage involved? How do non-Jewish jews related or differ from non-Muslim Arabs?

    There is always this ongoing war of ownership and rights for people following religious doctrines, what of those of us who are atheists? Should I hand over all to the one who believes in God, because they require it and I do not?

    I live in Canada, as an atheist amongst Jews, Muslims and Christians. I am surrounded by theological doctrines and influences, none of which I subscribe to, however they still impact my life. Should I not have my own chunk of the world, where I can be left undisturbed with all of my atheist brethren? No, I don't think so. I think we all just have to learn to get along.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    I'd also like to add that I think the ancient doctrine of the Pharisees has drastically damaged the Jewish image. Preaching that it's ok to murder gentiles, or it's ok to steal from a gentile, but should not from a Jew. Usury, the Rothschilds, the whole monetary control of the world! That's what's damaging to the Jewish image, that's why this crap happens.

    The Holocaust was not just Hitler's uncaused hate for Jews, he hated Jews because of their control of the European monetary system, perhaps his father was a painter that became impoverished to a Jewish banker, that is the basis for Hitler's motivation. Although he was also fucked in the head.

    The point is, take some responsibility. Label me an anti-semite all you want, it doesn't change history or the future. Jewish people have to take some accountability for what has happened and is happening. If you ignore the Jewish role in the Holocaust, then you fail to explain why the Holocaust happened. I don't think it was right, it was all fucked up and Hitler was a psychotic maniac, but he was motivated by something powerful and it was monetary control.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    At this point probably a majority of the world's Jews do not practice the Jewish religion, but a great many of these people still consider themselves to be a part of the Jewish people. They percieve their Jewishness to be a central aspect of their identity. It's funny that you talk about Arabs. There is no "Arab" nation. There is a Palestinian nation and an Egyptian nation etc. These nations are all made up of Arabs but what differentiates them is the perceptions of each nation that they are distinct and unique. The Jewish nation is no different.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    At this point probably a majority of the world's Jews do not practice the Jewish religion, but a great many of these people still consider themselves to be a part of the Jewish people. They percieve their Jewishness to be a central aspect of their identity. It's funny that you talk about Arabs. There is no "Arab" nation. There is a Palestinian nation and an Egyptian nation etc. These nations are all made up of Arabs but what differentiates them is the perceptions of each nation that they are distinct and unique. The Jewish nation is no different.

    Exactly, nationalism is the differentiation. Without nationalism, there would be no Zion. Jews would be living happily throughout the nations of the world. Zionism was diseased idea that was sold to the Jews without considering the consequences.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd also like to add that I think the ancient doctrine of the Pharisees has drastically damaged the Jewish image. Preaching that it's ok to murder gentiles, or it's ok to steal from a gentile, but should not from a Jew. Usury, the Rothschilds, the whole monetary control of the world! That's what's damaging to the Jewish image, that's why this crap happens.

    The Holocaust was not just Hitler's uncaused hate for Jews, he hated Jews because of their control of the European monetary system, perhaps his father was a painter that became impoverished to a Jewish banker, that is the basis for Hitler's motivation. Although he was also fucked in the head.

    The point is, take some responsibility. Label me an anti-semite all you want, it doesn't change history or the future. Jewish people have to take some accountability for what has happened and is happening. If you ignore the Jewish role in the Holocaust, then you fail to explain why the Holocaust happened. I don't think it was right, it was all fucked up and Hitler was a psychotic maniac, but he was motivated by something powerful and it was monetary control.

    I don't know where you got the idea that the Pharisees thought that it was ok to murder non-Jews. That is definitely not true. As for the Jews controlling Europe's financial system, again I think you're wrong. There were wealthy Jews in Europe certainly. But the belief that the Jews controlled the system is the bastard creation of a paranoid mind. Hitler certainly believed that he had legitimate reasons for hating the Jews, but to say that he was right in his accusations is quite frankly absurd, alarming, hurtful, paranoid in itself. I mean, that's basically like saying that slave owners were certainly crazy but we have to understand that compared to Europeans Africans really were inferior and less human. I mean it's a terrible thing to say.
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Exactly, nationalism is the differentiation. Without nationalism, there would be no Zion. Jews would be living happily throughout the nations of the world. Zionism was diseased idea that was sold to the Jews without considering the consequences.

    Ok, you can believe this also, but again I disagree. Before Zionism Jews were being butchered all over Europe. And the people doing the butchering weren't driven to do it by nationalism either. Nationalism can certainly be used for evil purposes, but that is true of most things. In and of itself it certainly is not a bad thing.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    I don't know where you got the idea that the Pharisees thought that it was ok to murder non-Jews. That is definitely not true. As for the Jews controlling Europe's financial system, again I think you're wrong. There were wealthy Jews in Europe certainly. But the belief that the Jews controlled the system is the bastard creation of a paranoid mind. Hitler certainly believed that he had legitimate reasons for hating the Jews, but to say that he was right in his accusations is quite frankly absurd, alarming, hurtful, paranoid in itself. I mean, that's basically like saying that slave owners were certainly crazy but we have to understand that compared to Europeans Africans really were inferior and less human. I mean it's a terrible thing to say.

    If you read up on the history of Usury, it started with Jews and was kept somewhat of a Jewish secret. Jews swiftly took control of large pieces of land and massive wealths. I didn't get that from Hitler propaganda, I got that on the recorded history of economics.

    The teachings of the Pharisees I got directly from the Talmud. I read a large portion and was disgusted by the amount of hate for Goyyim portrayed in it. Absolutely disgusted.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    Ok, you can believe this also, but again I disagree. Before Zionism Jews were being butchered all over Europe. And the people doing the butchering weren't driven to do it by nationalism either. Nationalism can certainly be used for evil purposes, but that is true of most things. In and of itself it certainly is not a bad thing.

    So, you are suggesting that one look at a Jew causes a Goy to have bloodlust? That gentiles just go into a fit of rage and lack of self-control when they are the presence of a Jew? That is hilarious. How would they even know? I can't spot a Jew if he was my best friend.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Do you read aramaic? did you study the talmud with someone with any expertise in it? cause it takes years of study to even begin to get a handle on the talmud and the entire thing is entirely self-referential and pre-supposes that the reader has a lot of prior knowledge, so I seriously doubt that you could have understood what it was talking about or the context in which it makes its statements. As for usury, the word has a distinctly negative Christian conotation often associated with classical Christian anti-semitism. Lending with interest, which is what usury boils down to, is, I would point out, a principle underpinning of modern economics, and if you have a problem with that then please take that out on your nearest economics department instead of on the Jewish people.
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Ahnimus wrote:
    So, you are suggesting that one look at a Jew causes a Goy to have bloodlust? That gentiles just go into a fit of rage and lack of self-control when they are the presence of a Jew? That is hilarious. How would they even know? I can't spot a Jew if he was my best friend.

    I didn't suggest any such thing. Are you really unaware of the history of the Jews in Europe? Pogroms, blood libels, forced conversions, expulsions, massacres of entire communities during the crusades, abductions of Jewish babies for conversion, ghettoization, segregation, all of which preceded the holocaust.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    dayan wrote:
    Do you read aramaic? did you study the talmud with someone with any expertise in it? cause it takes years of study to even begin to get a handle on the talmud and the entire thing is entirely self-referential and pre-supposes that the reader has a lot of prior knowledge, so I seriously doubt that you could have understood what it was talking about or the context in which it makes its statements. As for usury, the word has a distinctly negative Christian conotation often associated with classical Christian anti-semitism. Lending with interest, which is what usury boils down to, is, I would point out, a principle underpinning of modern economics, and if you have a problem with that then please take that out on your nearest economics department instead of on the Jewish people.

    It's all translated into plain english several places on the web.

    Usury was a Jewish secret for ages, it was first discovered by some Arab nation that incorporated it into the Sharia Law, banning it, and it's still banned today.

    Yes, it is part of standard economics, and I don't have a problem with it. The problem was as it were in the past. It all relates to the past, sadly. I would prefer to leave the past alone, but it keeps being rehashed by both Jews and Arabs.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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