How can Israel deal with the palestinians?
miller8966
Posts: 1,450
When obviously they cant keep it together.
America...the greatest Country in the world.
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I find it funny that such an explanation was always refuted by those on the right, or those who supported Israel. And they did it, I suppose, because it was convenient for them to do so - to label the Palestinians and decry their actions. Fingers were always pointed at Arafat, for example, as someone who just wasn't trying very hard. But don't the recent actions just demonstrate the above point - namely, that there really is no solid consensus with the Palestinians ?
This is an excellent post. Keep in mind, however, it also applies to those who defend the Palestinians as if they were a "single voice".
How it works is you reward those who are loyal to you, or who agree to act in your interests, whilst punishing those who aren't. Simple.
how can israel deal with people who's view of democracy is to shoot each other in the streets.
Well, I think there's a distinction to be made when thinking of Palestinians as one. Politcally/militarily, you're quite right, there are serious schisms. On the other hand, I think its relatively easy to consider them a group when it comes to things like current living conditions, human rights, and other social/cultural issues.
So, the dissonance is how to get to a better place, but not with who/where they are as a people.
Are you familiar with the concept behind "Jar of Flies" ?
It's "relatively easy" to group Israelis and Palestinians together on those same issues.
Fair enough. I just think you might be trying to have your cake and eat it too here. What's happening right now in Palestine is absolutely ridiculous, just as it's absolutely ridiculous when the Israelis are the ones holding the guns.
No one involved in this kind of fighting should ever be taken seriously again in the context of peace.
Both of your questions so far on this thread are pathetic.
Here's a question for you:
How can the world deal with a terrorist state which is supported unconditionally by the most powerful country in the world?
Please tell me you made this post in an ironic attempt to demonstrate the other "pathetic" extreme?
I'd like to know how the Israeli's and Palestinians could be "together" on social/cultural matters when the raison d'etre of the Israeli state is to create a Jewish homeland and make the interests of Israeli's and Palestinians mutually exclusive ?
Sorry to disapoint you but a country which is in breach of over 60 U.N resolutions and which continues to illegally occupy another country's land is by any estimation a terrorist state.
Ummm...the raison d'etre of many Palestinians is also to establish a Palestinian state on current Jewish homeland and make the insterests of Palestinians and Israeli's mutually exclusive.
You made a wonderful post above alluding to the fact that grouping millions of people together by pretending they all have similar motives, emotions, and thoughts is a mistake. Unfortunately, you just blew it by doing the same above.
Most Israeli's, like most Palestinians, simply want to live lives free of violence. They want to persue their own individual interests without fearing the gun or the bomb. They each want a nation that defends their basic rights to pursue those interests. Anyone who stands in the way of that and resorts to violence to enforce their own will on their neighbors (be they Arab or Jew), is a criminal.
Give me a break... the borders of every single country in the world are a result of conflict and a resolution. There will always be an argument of who came first, but the past 50 years have proven that Isreal is permanent and isn't going anywhere.
The arabs have attempted four wars against them and lost all of them miserably. This is all about lost pride hurt egos. 350 million arabs can't understand why they can't defeat 7 million Jews, and it eats at them and forms the basis of all the hatred going on over there. Whenever they decide to get over it, then we can move forward...
I'm not disappointed. I'm amused at you calling a mirror "pathetic" and "racist".
Please elaborate, if you're capable.
Wow! How insightful! Did you get that ground-breaking information from a Christmas cracker?
Your position is simply the other ridiculous extreme to the argument you are rejecting above. The thread starter, in your opinion is "racist" and "pathetic", yet you seem to hold the same opinions wherein the only difference is the population you aim them at. So basically, you're looking in a mirror (where everything is equal, just backwards) and your words apply to you in the same manner they do to your reflection.
You may fixate on one side's aggression and crimes all you'd like. But if you're going to ignore the same behavior or the other side, don't expect people to take your position very seriously.
This argument holds no water. Are you suggesting that criticising Israel's crimes amounts to racism?
The thread began:
This post includes no explanation or analysis of the situation, whereas I mentioned Israels ongoing breaches of international law and it's subjecting the Palestinians to terror on a daily basis.
I will continue to focus on one sides aggression and crimes, just as Jewish partisans, or the French resistance were not asked to justify their actions in the face of an overwhelmingly superior invading army.
Not by default. But neither does criticizing the crimes of the Palestinians.
Neither did your original post.
And you made no mention of the reverse -- Palestinian terrorism.
You may focus on whatever you'd like. Just don't be surprised when you end up missing half the picture.
Your first 3 points are meaningless. And your fourth point is ridiculous. Try harder!
from having gotten into this stuff with you before i know just how crazy you are and that you're never going to be capable of seeing just how wrong you are on this, but I'd just like to add my two cents anyway. farfromglorified has gotten you pegged. he hung you with your own petard (I have no idea if I spelled that right. probably not) and it's really just sad that you can't see it.
You need to focus on both sides aggressions and crimes because you obviously dont see the whole picture. Both sides have plenty of fault in this whole ordeal.
So you two both believe that the Palestinians and Israelis are on an equal footing?
As far as not being able to see the whole picture, I can see it perfectly. Israel is a wealthy country that the U.S supplies with $4 Billion in aid every year along with state of the art military equipment, including F16 fighter jets and bulldozers designed to destroy the homes of Palestinians.
This compared with:
Roadmap to Poverty
16 May 2003
By Louise Richards, chief executive War on Want
There is a place where UN agencies estimate that over half the population are living on less than $2 per day. Where over 1.3 million people are dependent on foreign aid to survive. Where chronic and acute malnutrition is widespread among children under five years of age and is increasing rapidly. Where the World Health Organisation has described the situation as "hidden hunger".
And where is this place? A forgotten corner of Sub-Saharan Africa? No, this is the illegally occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip where 3.5 million Palestinians are mired in poverty that rarely makes British TV screens, let alone the living rooms of Israeli families.
As Peter Hansen, Commissioner General of the UN Relief and Works Agency, the largest aid organisation working in the territories, recently put it: “No drought has hit Gaza and the West Bank, no crops have failed and the shops are often full of food. But the failure of the peace process and the destruction of the economy by Israel's closure policy have had the effect of a terrible natural disaster.”
This week development charity War on Want launches a survey of the levels and causes of poverty in the Occupied Palestinian Territories that, if left unchecked, will blight a generation of young Palestinians as a result of creeping malnutrition.
The mental and physical development of a generation of Palestinian children is at stake. A study funded by the United States Agency for International Development found that four out of five children in Gaza and the West Bank have inadequate iron and zinc intake. These deficiencies cause anaemia and weaken the immune system.
Through close liaison with Palestinian project partners and a sweep through a vast body of information sources, War on Want argues that the appalling levels of poverty in Gaza and the West Bank can be laid squarely at the door of Israel’s continued occupation and colonisation of Palestinian land. In short, this is the story of a nation of people under house arrest.
Of course, TV footage rarely captures the incremental collapse of a society and economy that has witnessed the steady erosion of human and workers’ rights dating back 36 years since Israel’s occupation began in 1967.
In the UK, we are sadly accustomed to watching disjointed scenes of killing on Israeli soil where foreign media are free to film the carnage wreaked by suicide bombers. But is there sufficient coverage of Israeli operations inside the occupied territories where the media is often unable to roam?
Some journalists have taken huge risks trying to achieve a semblance of balance by filming the plight of everyday Palestinian families. Some have even paid the blood price such as British freelance cameraman James Miller who was shot dead in May by the Israeli army in the town of Rafah.
But the pendulum of killing that has come to characterise loss of life should be understood in a more historical context. As 26 Israelis and Palestinians were added to the death toll last week, the report details how the machinery of occupation has constricted the Palestinian people over a period of decades.
Poverty flows from an occupation characterised by curfews, checkpoints and closures. The denial of freedom of movement for Palestinians has made any semblance of normal life impossible. Collective punishment of this kind means people are unable to get to work, school or even hospital while the arbitrary and random nature of curfews is designed to make it impossible for people and civil institutions to make any plans.
There are over 120 Israeli checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which when added to roadblocks, divide the West Bank into 300 enclaves and the Gaza Strip into three separate sections.
Being unable to move freely has had enormous repercussions for employment and income. The report cites one estimate putting unemployment at 67% in the Gaza Strip and 48% in the West Bank. Until September 2000, about 70,000 Palestinians living in Gaza went to work in Israel. Today, only a couple of thousand workers are given a day permits to enter Israel and even those allowed to cross over are at mercy of checkpoint commanders and sporadic curfews.
As a result of the occupation, income losses stand at between $6 million and $8.6 million per day – far exceeding the total aid provided by the international community in attempt to fill the void. In addition, the Palestinian Authority has struggled to pay salaries to its 125,000 employees due in large part to the withholding of tax revenues owed to it by Israel. While payments are not being made, the IMF estimated total monies owed at $600 million in August 2002.
The threat of home demolition and the destruction of Palestinian property is also a driver of poverty in the Occupied Territories. During the first 15 months of the Intifada, physical damage amounted to $305 million and in the month-long invasion of the West Bank in March/April 2002, the Israeli Army destroyed and looted $361 million worth of property.
House demolition was a deliberate Israeli policy long before the current Intifada, but it has increased dramatically as Israel pursues its illegal practice of collective punishment. During 2002, in the Gaza Strip, 655 houses have been demolished in which 5,124 Palestinians lived.
Meanwhile, across the territories, 30 mosques and 12 churches were destroyed between September 2000 and February 2002, and 13,340 acres of Palestinian land has been bulldozed or burned according Israeli press reports earlier this year.
And while Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, talks up peace, his government literally ploughs ahead with the so-called Security Wall currently under construction in the West Bank.
Costing £1million per mile of fence and swallowing great swathes of Palestinian land, it is difficult to square with the parallel process for peace. It was left to an Israeli settler quoted in a major Israeli newspaper to sum up the situation and the wall. Describing himself as “very right wing” he said: “It’s an economic death sentence for the Palestinians. There are people here who want to make a living and it’s creating more hatred.”
I didnt say they were on equal footing, I said they both had faults, which you obviously cant comprehend. ANd I most certainly think Israel is out of line with a lot of what they do, and I dont support the US degree of support for Israel. But none of that automatically equates to the PLO being perfectly innocent in this whole mess, and your naive if you think that.
I've not said that the PLO are perfectly innocent. Therefore your lame accusation of my naivity is groundless.
Then why did you admit to focusing on only one sides aggression in an earlier post? If you feel both have blame why cant you acknowledge that both have blame?
O.k then, let me ask you a question: Do you think that the Jewish resistance in world war 2 were guilty of committing crimes against the German army, and that they should therefore be condemned?
No. So, are you now saying the Palestinians have no blame then? Whats the point of this question? YOu just said they did have blame, and now it seems that your saying they dont. Could you please clarify, because it sounds like your talking out of both sides of your mouth.
But not ridiculous?
But not meaningless?
That would imply a difficult task. Spotting rampant hypocrisy isn't too tough.
Thank you for one of the most entertaining responses I've ever seen here though.