Libertarian ideology

farfromglorified
farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
Per request, I've started a thread on Libertarian ideology. For those that don't know, Libertarians stand for a single principle: Liberty. Liberty is the measure of an individual's oppression by society. Libertarian ideology extends from that principle.

The purpose of this thread is for the beautiful and wonderful baraka (no sarcasm intended), to take me to task on logical fallacies or contradictions in Libertarian ideology.
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Comments

  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Per request, I've started a thread on Libertarian ideology. For those that don't know, Libertarians stand for a single principle: Liberty. Liberty is the measure of an individual's oppression by society. Libertarian ideology extends from that principle.

    The purpose of this thread is for the beautiful and wonderful baraka (no sarcasm intended), to take me to task on logical fallacies or contradictions in Libertarian ideology.

    I don't know how to make the 'blushing' smiley, otherwise I would insert it here. Thanks for the compliment.

    My take on some of the libertarian ideology is the notion that we owe most of civilization's progress to the overarching achievements of a few. This seems elitist, to say the least. Also there is not much compassion in the worldview that I can see, which suggests that 99 percent of us should be grateful slaves to the capitalists who financed the industrialization of the US.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    It looks like there are no takers on your challenge.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    It looks like there are no takers on your challenge.

    Hey, I don't count? :(
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    baraka wrote:
    I don't know how to make the 'blushing' smiley, otherwise I would insert it here. Thanks for the compliment.

    Thank yourself. You earn them regularly.
    My take on some of the libertarian ideology is the notion that we owe most of civilization's progress to the overarching achievements of a few. This seems elitist, to say the least.

    This is not really true. That would be true of Randian ideology (Objectivism), but not really Libertarian ideologies. Libertarianism is a political ideology, not really an political/economic ideology as is Objectivism.
    Also there is not much compassion in the worldview that I can see, which suggests that 99 percent of us should be grateful slaves to the capitalists who financed the industrialization of the US.

    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    baraka wrote:
    Hey, I don't count? :(

    Sorry we must have been posting or message at the same time. As for your post. I don't see that as being a part of libertarianism. I don't know if maybe you are referring to their belief that there should be no government regulation of business.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Thank yourself. You earn them regularly.



    This is not really true. That would be true of Randian ideology (Objectivism), but not really Libertarian ideologies. Libertarianism is a political ideology, not really an political/economic ideology as is Objectivism.



    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.

    But what of ownership?
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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    gue_barium wrote:
    But what of ownership?

    What about it? Libertarians believe that men have the right to own their own labor and the products of that labor. The believe the purpose of government is to protect the property of individuals.
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    Sorry we must have been posting or message at the same time. As for your post. I don't see that as being a part of libertarianism. I don't know if maybe you are referring to their belief that there should be no government regulation of business.


    Partially. I've debated ffg before about regulations and as much as I wish I could believe that everyone has everyone else's best intentions in mind, I know this is not the case. Being in the health care profession, I can not image a lack of regulations in this day and age. I see a lack of common sense in that idea.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Thank yourself. You earn them regularly.



    This is not really true. That would be true of Randian ideology (Objectivism), but not really Libertarian ideologies. Libertarianism is a political ideology, not really an political/economic ideology as is Objectivism.



    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.

    Perhaps I do blur the line with libertarian ideas and objectivism. I'll admit, I do like the social ideas of libertarianism. But I fear some of the ramifications of some of the other ideas. I'll be more specific in a minute. I have a plumber at the house right now. I'll also address your last point.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    baraka wrote:
    Perhaps I do blur the line with libertarian ideas and objectivism. I'll admit, I do like the social ideas of libertarianism. But I fear some of the ramifications of some of the other ideas. I'll be more specific in a minute. I have a plumber at the house right now. I'll also address your last point.

    :eek:

    Is he a regulated plumber??????

    ;)
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    What about it? Libertarians believe that men have the right to own their own labor and the products of that labor. The believe the purpose of government is to protect the property of individuals.

    So, basically Libertarianism is about the have's and have nots. Those who own, and those who do not. "Politically" speaking.
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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    gue_barium wrote:
    So, basically Libertarianism is about the have's and have nots. Those who own, and those who do not. "Politically" speaking.

    There is no such thing as a "have not", except for the dead and the unborn.

    Under Libertarian ideology, every person owns their life, their liberty, and their property, and the only valid function of government is their protection.
  • norm
    norm Posts: 31,146
    farfromglorified wrote:
    :eek:

    Is he a regulated plumber??????

    ;)

    :D

    smart-ass


    :D
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    There is no such thing as a "have not", except for the dead and the unborn.

    Under Libertarian ideology, every person owns their life, their liberty, and their property, and the only valid function of government is their protection.

    What property?
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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    gue_barium wrote:
    What property?

    Whatever property they have obtained from labor and/or exchange.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Whatever property they have obtained from labor and/or exchange.

    Well, in America, if you're talking about real estate, wasn't this land, for the most part, forcibly taken from another People? A people that didn't have a need for Titles and Deeds and all that other crap coming from Europe?
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    gue_barium wrote:
    Well, in America, if you're talking about real estate, wasn't this land, for the most part, forcibly taken from another People?

    Some of it, yes. Some of it was also exchanged for, abandoned and uninhabited. However, I don't think you'll find prescriptions for stealing land in Libertarianism, if that's your question.
    A people that didn't have a need for Titles and Deeds and all that other crap coming from Europe?

    What do you mean by "need"? Many didn't believe in ownership to begin with, which pretty much destroys any reason for Titles and Deeds.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I guess my take on your Libertarian Ideology is that it ...er, I was going to say it looks good on paper, but I can't honestly say it does. This country is far too out of balance with itself, not to mention the rest of the world right now to even consider such an ideological leap. The fact is, I don't even think it is a leap. At least not for the well-to-do, they already have their Libertarianism, and they're living it up while world goes to waste for the rest of us. To me, Libertarism in the form that you propose, has too many "convenient" blind spots.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    baraka wrote:
    Partially. I've debated ffg before about regulations and as much as I wish I could believe that everyone has everyone else's best intentions in mind, I know this is not the case. Being in the health care profession, I can not image a lack of regulations in this day and age. I see a lack of common sense in that idea.

    Well the people and the market would regulate business. If a company is engaged in unfair business practices people can choice to not work for that company or spend their money on the goods and/or services they offer. This would cause the company to either adabt or go out of business.

    Government regulation do make it easier but by allowing the government that power you are opening the door for it to grab more power and a increase it's influence on the lives of the citizens.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    gue_barium wrote:
    I guess my take on your Libertarian Ideology is that it ...er, I was going to say it looks good on paper, but I can't honestly say it does. This country is far too out of balance with itself, not to mention the rest of the world right now to even consider such an ideological leap. The fact is, I don't even think it is a leap. At least not for the well-to-do, they already have their Libertarianism, and they're living it up while world goes to waste for the rest of us. To me, Libertarism in the form that you propose, has too many "convenient" blind spots.

    So Libertarianism is too radical and conventional at the same time?

    This thread is about shooting holes in contradictions within Libertarianism, not in its critics.

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