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Libertarian ideology

farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
Per request, I've started a thread on Libertarian ideology. For those that don't know, Libertarians stand for a single principle: Liberty. Liberty is the measure of an individual's oppression by society. Libertarian ideology extends from that principle.

The purpose of this thread is for the beautiful and wonderful baraka (no sarcasm intended), to take me to task on logical fallacies or contradictions in Libertarian ideology.
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    barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Per request, I've started a thread on Libertarian ideology. For those that don't know, Libertarians stand for a single principle: Liberty. Liberty is the measure of an individual's oppression by society. Libertarian ideology extends from that principle.

    The purpose of this thread is for the beautiful and wonderful baraka (no sarcasm intended), to take me to task on logical fallacies or contradictions in Libertarian ideology.

    I don't know how to make the 'blushing' smiley, otherwise I would insert it here. Thanks for the compliment.

    My take on some of the libertarian ideology is the notion that we owe most of civilization's progress to the overarching achievements of a few. This seems elitist, to say the least. Also there is not much compassion in the worldview that I can see, which suggests that 99 percent of us should be grateful slaves to the capitalists who financed the industrialization of the US.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
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    mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    It looks like there are no takers on your challenge.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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    barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    It looks like there are no takers on your challenge.

    Hey, I don't count? :(
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    baraka wrote:
    I don't know how to make the 'blushing' smiley, otherwise I would insert it here. Thanks for the compliment.

    Thank yourself. You earn them regularly.
    My take on some of the libertarian ideology is the notion that we owe most of civilization's progress to the overarching achievements of a few. This seems elitist, to say the least.

    This is not really true. That would be true of Randian ideology (Objectivism), but not really Libertarian ideologies. Libertarianism is a political ideology, not really an political/economic ideology as is Objectivism.
    Also there is not much compassion in the worldview that I can see, which suggests that 99 percent of us should be grateful slaves to the capitalists who financed the industrialization of the US.

    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.
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    mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    baraka wrote:
    Hey, I don't count? :(

    Sorry we must have been posting or message at the same time. As for your post. I don't see that as being a part of libertarianism. I don't know if maybe you are referring to their belief that there should be no government regulation of business.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Thank yourself. You earn them regularly.



    This is not really true. That would be true of Randian ideology (Objectivism), but not really Libertarian ideologies. Libertarianism is a political ideology, not really an political/economic ideology as is Objectivism.



    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.

    But what of ownership?
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    gue_barium wrote:
    But what of ownership?

    What about it? Libertarians believe that men have the right to own their own labor and the products of that labor. The believe the purpose of government is to protect the property of individuals.
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    barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    Sorry we must have been posting or message at the same time. As for your post. I don't see that as being a part of libertarianism. I don't know if maybe you are referring to their belief that there should be no government regulation of business.


    Partially. I've debated ffg before about regulations and as much as I wish I could believe that everyone has everyone else's best intentions in mind, I know this is not the case. Being in the health care profession, I can not image a lack of regulations in this day and age. I see a lack of common sense in that idea.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
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    barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Thank yourself. You earn them regularly.



    This is not really true. That would be true of Randian ideology (Objectivism), but not really Libertarian ideologies. Libertarianism is a political ideology, not really an political/economic ideology as is Objectivism.



    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.

    Perhaps I do blur the line with libertarian ideas and objectivism. I'll admit, I do like the social ideas of libertarianism. But I fear some of the ramifications of some of the other ideas. I'll be more specific in a minute. I have a plumber at the house right now. I'll also address your last point.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    baraka wrote:
    Perhaps I do blur the line with libertarian ideas and objectivism. I'll admit, I do like the social ideas of libertarianism. But I fear some of the ramifications of some of the other ideas. I'll be more specific in a minute. I have a plumber at the house right now. I'll also address your last point.

    :eek:

    Is he a regulated plumber??????

    ;)
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    What about it? Libertarians believe that men have the right to own their own labor and the products of that labor. The believe the purpose of government is to protect the property of individuals.

    So, basically Libertarianism is about the have's and have nots. Those who own, and those who do not. "Politically" speaking.
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    gue_barium wrote:
    So, basically Libertarianism is about the have's and have nots. Those who own, and those who do not. "Politically" speaking.

    There is no such thing as a "have not", except for the dead and the unborn.

    Under Libertarian ideology, every person owns their life, their liberty, and their property, and the only valid function of government is their protection.
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    normnorm I'm always home. I'm uncool. Posts: 31,147
    farfromglorified wrote:
    :eek:

    Is he a regulated plumber??????

    ;)

    :D

    smart-ass


    :D
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    There is no such thing as a "have not", except for the dead and the unborn.

    Under Libertarian ideology, every person owns their life, their liberty, and their property, and the only valid function of government is their protection.

    What property?
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    gue_barium wrote:
    What property?

    Whatever property they have obtained from labor and/or exchange.
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Whatever property they have obtained from labor and/or exchange.

    Well, in America, if you're talking about real estate, wasn't this land, for the most part, forcibly taken from another People? A people that didn't have a need for Titles and Deeds and all that other crap coming from Europe?
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    gue_barium wrote:
    Well, in America, if you're talking about real estate, wasn't this land, for the most part, forcibly taken from another People?

    Some of it, yes. Some of it was also exchanged for, abandoned and uninhabited. However, I don't think you'll find prescriptions for stealing land in Libertarianism, if that's your question.
    A people that didn't have a need for Titles and Deeds and all that other crap coming from Europe?

    What do you mean by "need"? Many didn't believe in ownership to begin with, which pretty much destroys any reason for Titles and Deeds.
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I guess my take on your Libertarian Ideology is that it ...er, I was going to say it looks good on paper, but I can't honestly say it does. This country is far too out of balance with itself, not to mention the rest of the world right now to even consider such an ideological leap. The fact is, I don't even think it is a leap. At least not for the well-to-do, they already have their Libertarianism, and they're living it up while world goes to waste for the rest of us. To me, Libertarism in the form that you propose, has too many "convenient" blind spots.
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    mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    baraka wrote:
    Partially. I've debated ffg before about regulations and as much as I wish I could believe that everyone has everyone else's best intentions in mind, I know this is not the case. Being in the health care profession, I can not image a lack of regulations in this day and age. I see a lack of common sense in that idea.

    Well the people and the market would regulate business. If a company is engaged in unfair business practices people can choice to not work for that company or spend their money on the goods and/or services they offer. This would cause the company to either adabt or go out of business.

    Government regulation do make it easier but by allowing the government that power you are opening the door for it to grab more power and a increase it's influence on the lives of the citizens.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    gue_barium wrote:
    I guess my take on your Libertarian Ideology is that it ...er, I was going to say it looks good on paper, but I can't honestly say it does. This country is far too out of balance with itself, not to mention the rest of the world right now to even consider such an ideological leap. The fact is, I don't even think it is a leap. At least not for the well-to-do, they already have their Libertarianism, and they're living it up while world goes to waste for the rest of us. To me, Libertarism in the form that you propose, has too many "convenient" blind spots.

    So Libertarianism is too radical and conventional at the same time?

    This thread is about shooting holes in contradictions within Libertarianism, not in its critics.
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    godpt3godpt3 Posts: 1,020
    A libertarian is just a conservative who wants to smoke dope.
    "If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
    —Dorothy Parker

    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
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    TheVoiceInsideTheVoiceInside Posts: 361
    godpt3 wrote:
    A libertarian is just a conservative who wants to smoke dope.


    lol was thinking the same thing. I was going to say a consrvative anarchist.
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    barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    .
    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.

    I see it as a contradiction in the libertarian core principle.

    Here's what concerns me: The idea looks good in theory, but I'm concerned it will only result in privileges for few in reality. The less fortunate in our society lack the 'paper muscles' to be truly free in straight-up free market. I also fear corporations taking advantage of folks in a world without regulations. I wish this was not the case, but sadly it is. The industrial revolution brought on many abuses which resulted in unions, regulatory agencies, etc. These things didn't come into fruition for no reason. This is where I was coming from with my 'slave' analogy. The intent may not be this, but result will be.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    So Libertarianism is too radical and conventional at the same time?

    This thread is about shooting holes in contradictions within Libertarianism, not in its critics.

    It exists. It already exists. I don't like how it's working. I'm saying it needs to be improved upon.
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    baraka wrote:
    I see it as a contradiction in the libertarian core principle.

    Here's what concerns me: The idea looks good in theory, but I'm concerned it will only result in privileges for few in reality. The less fortunate in our society lack the 'paper muscles' to be truly free in straight-up free market.

    "Paper muscles"??? That is a contradiction.

    A free-market means that your money matches your production. And to tie "free" to money makes no sense. Money doesn't make a man free. Freedom is simply what makes money possible.
    I also fear corporations taking advantage of folks in a world without regulations. I wish this was not the case, but sadly it is. The industrial revolution brought on many abuses which resulted in unions, regulatory agencies, etc. These things didn't come into fruition for no reason. This is where I was coming from with my 'slave' analogy. The intent may not be this, but result will be.

    Libertarianism does not prescribe an environment wherein corporations may enslave you or destroy the world. An unregulated market does not mean a market wherein Halliburton may kidnap you or force your labor. Libertarians strongly believe that the government should exist to prevent those actions.
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    "Paper muscles"??? That is a contradiction.

    A free-market means that your money matches your production. And to tie "free" to money makes no sense. Money doesn't make a man free. Freedom is simply what makes money possible.



    Libertarianism does not prescribe an environment wherein corporations may enslave you or destroy the world. An unregulated market does not mean a market wherein Halliburton may kidnap you or force your labor. Libertarians strongly believe that the government should exist to prevent those actions.

    Too much "Us and Them" lurking in your rhetoric. You can't hide your elitism.
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    gue_barium wrote:
    Too much "Us and Them" lurking in your rhetoric.

    Please explain. Who, in my "rhetoric" is "us" and who is "them"???
    You can't hide your elitism.

    I'm not trying to hide my elitism. I believe I am right.
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    gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Please explain. Who, in my "rhetoric" is "us" and who is "them"???



    I'm not trying to hide my elitism. I believe I am right.

    There is no right, I'm not saying that, only you are, hence your short-sightedness. That doesn't make you wrong, just short-sighted.
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    farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    gue_barium wrote:
    There is no right, I'm not saying that, only you are, hence your short-sightedness. That doesn't make you wrong, just short-sighted.

    "There is no right" implies truth, the discovery of which would in turn imply "right".

    Contradicting yourself in 4 words is no small feat.
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    barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    Well the people and the market would regulate business. If a company is engaged in unfair business practices people can choice to not work for that company or spend their money on the goods and/or services they offer. This would cause the company to either adabt or go out of business.

    Government regulation do make it easier but by allowing the government that power you are opening the door for it to grab more power and a increase it's influence on the lives of the citizens.

    The world of regulatory agencies is very multi-faceted, esp in health care (I use health care as an example, because I'm somewhat familiar with this world). A far as the people and market regulating this: There are many regs in place that most are unaware of completely and most have no idea how these regs protect them. I can get very detailed if you like, but I think you get the idea of what I'm saying. Now, I' the first to admit that these reg agencies can be redundant and over-kill. I, personally, would like to improve that aspect than doing away with regs completely. I don't see how that is responsible in this day and age.

    I appreciate your 'slippery slope' concern and this is a potential problem. We see the ramifications of this everyday. I don't have all the answers. I will say that not all the reg agencies are gov't sponsored. One in particular that I deal with is more of a peer-related inspection agency and to get a stamp of approval from them gives you much respect in the medical community.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
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