Libertarian ideology

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  • godpt3
    godpt3 Posts: 1,020
    A libertarian is just a conservative who wants to smoke dope.
    "If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
    —Dorothy Parker

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  • TheVoiceInside
    TheVoiceInside Posts: 361
    godpt3 wrote:
    A libertarian is just a conservative who wants to smoke dope.


    lol was thinking the same thing. I was going to say a consrvative anarchist.
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    .
    This is a contradiction in your own perception. The core idea of Libertarian ideology is the rejection of slavery, in all its forms. Nowhere in Libertarian ideology will you find a command to labor, nor will you find a command for gratefulness to anything you have no interest in being grateful to.

    I see it as a contradiction in the libertarian core principle.

    Here's what concerns me: The idea looks good in theory, but I'm concerned it will only result in privileges for few in reality. The less fortunate in our society lack the 'paper muscles' to be truly free in straight-up free market. I also fear corporations taking advantage of folks in a world without regulations. I wish this was not the case, but sadly it is. The industrial revolution brought on many abuses which resulted in unions, regulatory agencies, etc. These things didn't come into fruition for no reason. This is where I was coming from with my 'slave' analogy. The intent may not be this, but result will be.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    So Libertarianism is too radical and conventional at the same time?

    This thread is about shooting holes in contradictions within Libertarianism, not in its critics.

    It exists. It already exists. I don't like how it's working. I'm saying it needs to be improved upon.
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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    baraka wrote:
    I see it as a contradiction in the libertarian core principle.

    Here's what concerns me: The idea looks good in theory, but I'm concerned it will only result in privileges for few in reality. The less fortunate in our society lack the 'paper muscles' to be truly free in straight-up free market.

    "Paper muscles"??? That is a contradiction.

    A free-market means that your money matches your production. And to tie "free" to money makes no sense. Money doesn't make a man free. Freedom is simply what makes money possible.
    I also fear corporations taking advantage of folks in a world without regulations. I wish this was not the case, but sadly it is. The industrial revolution brought on many abuses which resulted in unions, regulatory agencies, etc. These things didn't come into fruition for no reason. This is where I was coming from with my 'slave' analogy. The intent may not be this, but result will be.

    Libertarianism does not prescribe an environment wherein corporations may enslave you or destroy the world. An unregulated market does not mean a market wherein Halliburton may kidnap you or force your labor. Libertarians strongly believe that the government should exist to prevent those actions.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    "Paper muscles"??? That is a contradiction.

    A free-market means that your money matches your production. And to tie "free" to money makes no sense. Money doesn't make a man free. Freedom is simply what makes money possible.



    Libertarianism does not prescribe an environment wherein corporations may enslave you or destroy the world. An unregulated market does not mean a market wherein Halliburton may kidnap you or force your labor. Libertarians strongly believe that the government should exist to prevent those actions.

    Too much "Us and Them" lurking in your rhetoric. You can't hide your elitism.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    gue_barium wrote:
    Too much "Us and Them" lurking in your rhetoric.

    Please explain. Who, in my "rhetoric" is "us" and who is "them"???
    You can't hide your elitism.

    I'm not trying to hide my elitism. I believe I am right.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Please explain. Who, in my "rhetoric" is "us" and who is "them"???



    I'm not trying to hide my elitism. I believe I am right.

    There is no right, I'm not saying that, only you are, hence your short-sightedness. That doesn't make you wrong, just short-sighted.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    gue_barium wrote:
    There is no right, I'm not saying that, only you are, hence your short-sightedness. That doesn't make you wrong, just short-sighted.

    "There is no right" implies truth, the discovery of which would in turn imply "right".

    Contradicting yourself in 4 words is no small feat.
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    Well the people and the market would regulate business. If a company is engaged in unfair business practices people can choice to not work for that company or spend their money on the goods and/or services they offer. This would cause the company to either adabt or go out of business.

    Government regulation do make it easier but by allowing the government that power you are opening the door for it to grab more power and a increase it's influence on the lives of the citizens.

    The world of regulatory agencies is very multi-faceted, esp in health care (I use health care as an example, because I'm somewhat familiar with this world). A far as the people and market regulating this: There are many regs in place that most are unaware of completely and most have no idea how these regs protect them. I can get very detailed if you like, but I think you get the idea of what I'm saying. Now, I' the first to admit that these reg agencies can be redundant and over-kill. I, personally, would like to improve that aspect than doing away with regs completely. I don't see how that is responsible in this day and age.

    I appreciate your 'slippery slope' concern and this is a potential problem. We see the ramifications of this everyday. I don't have all the answers. I will say that not all the reg agencies are gov't sponsored. One in particular that I deal with is more of a peer-related inspection agency and to get a stamp of approval from them gives you much respect in the medical community.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    "Paper muscles"??? That is a contradiction.

    A free-market means that your money matches your production. And to tie "free" to money makes no sense. Money doesn't make a man free. Freedom is simply what makes money possible.

    'Paper muscles' is money. Money is a powerful thing. No contradiction......

    I disagree. With money comes much freedom. Now if you are just speaking about a free mind, well then I suppose those enslaved throughout history were still free as long as they had their mind intact.


    farfromglorified wrote:
    Libertarianism does not prescribe an environment wherein corporations may enslave you or destroy the world. An unregulated market does not mean a market wherein Halliburton may kidnap you or force your labor. Libertarians strongly believe that the government should exist to prevent those actions.

    No, but it's a little more deep than that. I'm think more about working conditions, etc. An individual is a slave to a corporation when their only means for earning a living is through them and the risk of losing their job is the corporation's leverage. Without 'paper muscles' most have no recourse. And I would suggest it takes money to make money. I'm not saying that these folks can't, for what ever reason, start their own business, but it is not as easy or as simple as that.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    :eek:

    Is he a regulated plumber??????

    ;)

    Ha ha, I missed this one! The bill I just paid would suggest he is! But, I gladly paid it to have hot water again.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    baraka wrote:
    'Paper muscles' is money. Money is a powerful thing. No contradiction......

    Production and labor are powerful things. Money is just paper. Words would have no power in the absence of meaning. Money is no different.
    I disagree. With money comes much freedom. Now if you are just speaking about a free mind, well then I suppose those enslaved throughout history were still free as long as they had their mind intact.

    Freedom is your ability to think and act. Thinking and acting are the root of money, not the other way around.
    No, but it's a little more deep than that. I'm think more about working conditions, etc. An individual is a slave to a corporation when their only means for earning a living is through them and the risk of losing their job is the corporation's leverage.

    What corporation is man's only means for earning a living?
    Without 'paper muscles' most have no recourse. And I would suggest it takes money to make money. I'm not saying that these folks can't, for what ever reason, start their own business, but it is not as easy or as simple as that.

    It does not "take money to make money". If that were true, there would be no money.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    This must be referring to libertarianism politics. As far as personal choice goes libertarianism is complete bullshit.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    baraka wrote:
    The world of regulatory agencies is very multi-faceted, esp in health care (I use health care as an example, because I'm somewhat familiar with this world). A far as the people and market regulating this: There are many regs in place that most are unaware of completely and most have no idea how these regs protect them. I can get very detailed if you like, but I think you get the idea of what I'm saying. Now, I' the first to admit that these reg agencies can be redundant and over-kill. I, personally, would like to improve that aspect than doing away with regs completely. I don't see how that is responsible in this day and age.

    I appreciate your 'slippery slope' concern and this is a potential problem. We see the ramifications of this everyday. I don't have all the answers. I will say that not all the reg agencies are gov't sponsored. One in particular that I deal with is more of a peer-related inspection agency and to get a stamp of approval from them gives you much respect in the medical community.

    Well I'm not a pure Libertarian. I still believe that there should be minimal government regulation. There are certain industries and areas where the consumer would be inefficient in setting regulations. These areas would be where the government would step in.

    I have nothing against peer-related inspection agencies.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    This must be referring to libertarianism politics. As far as personal choice goes libertarianism is complete bullshit.

    can you please explain.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    This must be referring to libertarianism politics. As far as personal choice goes libertarianism is complete bullshit.

    Hehe...did you choose that position?
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    can you please explain.

    Libertarianism as in volition, is described as the view that all human behavior is the result of free-will. ALL human behavior. Which is complete rubbish.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...did you choose that position?

    You still don't understand how that all works eh?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Libertarianism as in volition, is described as the view that all human behavior is the result of free-will. ALL human behavior. Which is complete rubbish.

    So you believe that all human behavior is not dictated by free will. If not free will then what.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul

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