I think you're beginning to understand why people turn to god. You know that they have a difficult time with facing their existence with a sense of clarity, and in order to achieve something to that effect, they must comfort their bruised egos with the blanket of "infinite superiority" that is god.
It's amazing I didn't transform into an entity called RagingBull!!!! From you I find this a compliment...
I understand circular thinking, but have you ever heard the term, straight line thinking? and if so, is this a parallel to boxxed up style thinking?
please don't use those words, like fallacy, don't ya know by now, they scare the shit out of me? thanks for the hug...i needed it.
and i do not think that anyone who discouunts God is beign disrespectful....i have learned more thna you will ever realize...thank you for your Divine presence in my journey, sponger....
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Given the obviousness of my not being god, I am left pondering the motive behind the posing of that question. I rule out facetiousness because you haven't exhibited an affinity for sarcasm in this thread at least.
My guess is that you are hoping that I have a longing for admiration, and will not pass up the opportunity to be seen as a god. You think atheists are so lacking in a moral foundation that they are given to occasionally entertaining delusions of grandjeur such as the possibility of being a supreme supernatural entity.
And when I take the bait, you will seize the opportunity to prove that, once and for all, atheists are really just malignant narcissists whose denouncement of god is indicative of a desire to compete with his greatness.
whooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! sponger, i gots to get a dictionary and be able to paraphrase you in order to build this bridge...
Given the obviousness of my not being god, I am left pondering the motive behind the posing of that question. I rule out facetiousness because you haven't exhibited an affinity for sarcasm in this thread at least.
facetiousness = frivolity? thanks for the new word...at first i thought of many faces..
I think I cannot rule out that you are a messenger of the god with_in. All events serve this cause for me. I take each and every action or movement that becomes to my awareness as a symbol from a GREAT MASTER, (whether this master is internal or external compares with the wagging tale theory......i am not being ficticious; this is true...i let vibrational forces of entity have an influence. by doing so, i become more ONE with my environment. therefore if i talk to you you become a part of me and your molecular breakdown infiltrates my BEing...crazy...yeah, oh well...
My guess is that you are hoping that I have a longing for admiration, and will not pass up the opportunity to be seen as a god.
no, i think i can vibe that you detest admiration and will test your grounds as any human will when being backed against a wall. my senses tell me you are a human that thrives on truth and rationale...you like to perhaps look at relationships in the terms of an onion...hell in that sense you are a great farmer...
You think atheists are so lacking in a moral foundation that they are given to occasionally entertaining delusions of grandjeur such as the possibility of being a supreme supernatural entity.
I don't think anything about anybody as far as moral foundation goes...I am at the bottom of a barrel.... But your statement introduces me to another perspective of what atheism stands for...i think it's non existant, atleast in my universe. i am too weak. and i know i have no answers..but for all I know god could be my imaginary friend as well...it's all just amazing to me to have a period of time in life where one can really look at evolution of One's alchemy...all people should try to really get to know one's self...
And when I take the bait, you will seize the opportunity to prove that, once and for all, atheists are really just malignant narcissists whose denouncement of god is indicative of a desire to compete with his greatness.
yes..i can see where having the idea of god does appeal to one's sense of humility...and yet, i can only see the purpose of god for myself is to try to please the god inside me and be open...but my interaction with god is not blame or bargain or lean on, i should be a whole enough person to stand on my own feet and flow with the tides...god should be be you...becasus it goes back to how i feel...god should be the sponge we leave our toxins with...and then we can move on..we certainly can't go out spitting our venom if we are to open up to a diversely, symbiotic, and interactive universe becasue it (b*s*) will contaminate and multiply.......and then return on your door step like a mountain, only magnified.....
so, sorry, sponger, i just proved to myself that you are god...damn.
invest in the SELF, it's a great opportunity...peace.
Wow, what a bunch of nonsense. I especially enjoyed the part where they try to correlate the value of spirituality with the value of subjectivity by highlighting Einstein's dream about spheres, which supposedly led to his theory of relativity.
What that writer fails to understand is that abstract thinking is not the same thing as subjectivity, and that Einstein had a deformed brain which allowed both hemispheres to communicate without the reliance on language, thus leading to the use of abstract symbols. In no way does this constitute subjective thinking.
As I was expecting you to do, you resorted to posting a big wordy link and passing it off as the basis for your viewpoint, so as to compensate for not really having one -or at least one that you can describe in your own words.
I implore you to have some original thought and at least the dignity to formulate your own views. You seem curious and intelligent enough to do that. Don't sell yourself short just to have the last word in an internet conversation.
more realization...thanks sponger...i am trying to follow this advice.....
(at the risk of displaying my MO...).
are you saying that eienstein created these symbols and the rest of people use qeuies for suggestion upon seeing them...and then you make wonder what's wrong with my brain...why do i resist logical thinking...? is it nature or nurture...f*ck, i just dont know...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
yes, me too. i'm really trying to incorporate the ideas into my daily existence. have you read steve hagen's buddhism plain & simple? it's an excellent introduction.
No, I haven't. Another book to add to the list. I just read everything they had in the local library, one was written by the dalai lama, the others were introductions to buddhism, buddhist stories, zen stories... And one book a teacher lent to me, it compared buddhism to christianity, islam and hinduism.
are you saying that eienstein created these symbols and the rest of people use qeuies for suggestion upon seeing them...and then you make wonder what's wrong with my brain...why do i resist logical thinking...? is it nature or nurture...f*ck, i just dont know...
Einstein did not create spheres. He mind just used them to get to a point. One of the known barriers to creativity is the breakdown of communication between the left and right hemispheres.
Most people use known language to process information in their heads. That is, when we analyze, we rely on the form of communication that we are given to using.
However, the part of Einstein's brain that dealt with language was under-developed, but the left and right hemispheres had shallower barrier, so he was able to make up for his lack of linguistics ability with raw symbolism.
Basically, it's the same type of analysis, but in his own language, which was abstract symbolism. It's just another way of achieving the same ends.
So, that's why I say it has little to do with subjectivity. The spheres didn't represent an emotional interpretation. They represented an analytical interpretation but in his own language.
Why does your mind resist logical thinking? The answer to that is the same answer to why all minds resist logical thinking.
I read a quote on here somewhere which said something about ignorance being the illusion of knowledge. If it is your personal interest to see beyond the conventional wisdom, then you're going to have to spend a great deal of time coming to terms with what you think you know, but actually don't.
A study was done a few years back which found that when the human ego is bruised, the brain sends out signals that closely resemble the signals it sounds out when the body experiences physical pain. That is, it's a stressful and anxiety-ridden experience for our brains to release our perceived sense of control over the world around us.
Like I said earlier, humility is a by-product of curiosity. When we as individuals are truly curious about a particular subject, we ignore the status indicators that would otherwise hold us back. Those status indicators are what give us our sense of complacency, which in turn prevent us from delving further.
Chop It Down: Thank you for the meditations about God's different types of Love. I found a definition and description of types of love, i could not articulate...or categorize..
Colin: I loved the link about Buddist philosophy. There was a quote within that gave me a lot to think about. It stated something like this: Unless your voice improves the silence, be silent. I love that..In fact, you probably delivered a life saving device...
Sponger: I love how you break a topic down so that others can understand a concept in layman's terms. I wonder if my mind works a bit like ol Al's. I can see things and formulate ideas in my mind (third eye, if you would...) but when it comes to truly processing, everything gets caught up somewhere in a maze...it's like when i am trying to solve an algebraic problem...as my mind starts the process, the stimulus travels, but then becasue of inexperience or lack of something (confidence??) it's like the imformation hits a brick wall...i get lost in a process.
I don't really wanna be the last word on an internet, my intentions are to learn and if asking questions presents that image to others, then that's their mirror to reflect. I truly know my intentions for myself and that is to find a path that compliments my existence on this plane and to learn how to adapt.
more appropriately with the gifts that I have. Then be able to give back...
my next question concerns your statement about the human brain being bruised.
A study was done a few years back which found that when the human ego is bruised, the brain sends out signals that closely resemble the signals it sounds out when the body experiences physical pain. That is, it's a stressful and anxiety-ridden experience for our brains to release our perceived sense of control over the world around us.
who determines ego? is not our ego a product of societal influence? i can see this has happened to me a thousand times. i would just a soon, run like the wind than to face up to inward struggle (ridiculous waste of energy i might add), although, for a long time now, i have been making a practice to overcome...
and would this not help people heal better with their physical struggles, if we could step away from ego?
You say humility is a by product of curiosity. Well, can't we have curiousity and be humble...or are you saying we can have both...oops, I think I answered that by my economics background... (by products co-exist) Is humility a compliment to curiousity? Or does humility temper our curiousity...?
Pearl Jammers: thank you to all...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student: "From...God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student: "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.
"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him"
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.
The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says, "This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do"
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
cold is an absence of heat. sure i can understand that. what i also understand is that in order to experience an absence of heat and to know that it is so, i have also to experience heat, which i have done. i can make the comparison and note what is missing.
darkness is an absence of light. again i can understand that. i have experienced light, every day i experience light. so when it becomes absent i have something with which to compare it to.
GOD. he is not here. he has never been here. i can not use any of my senses to make sense of him. nor can i use any of my senses to verify his existence. i have nothing to compare him to. there is nothing to compare him to. God is the absence of ...?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Nice...a completely fictionalized story designed to make educated atheists look like oppressive dumbasses. Luckily, most educated atheists do not argue with such poorly constructed rhetoric.
Gotta love the part where the student argues against evolution because we've never seen it just like we've never seen the professor's brain. So, by that rationale, the science of anatomy is lacking objectivity because we can't see our own brains...lmfao.
So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?
According to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that people have brains, and using common sense, we know that the professor is a person. Therefore, using the powers of deduction, we conclude the professor has a brain.
...that science stuff sure is confusing...good thing the bible tells us all we need to know.
Nice...a completely fictionalized story designed to make educated atheists look like oppressive dumbasses. Luckily, most educated atheists do not argue with such poorly constructed rhetoric.
Gotta love the part where the student argues against evolution because we've never seen it just like we've never seen the professor's brain. So, by that rationale, the science of anatomy is lacking objectivity because we can't see our own brains...lmfao.
According to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that people have brains, and using common sense, we know that the professor is a person. Therefore, using the powers of deduction, we conclude the professor has a brain.
...that science stuff sure is confusing...good thing the bible tells us all we need to know.
yes... the bible tells me everything i need to know about the judeo-christian religion.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It is not necessary to belong to an organized religion to have faith in a higher power or "God" ... what all religions come down to is one basic principle: LOVE. Okay... starting to feel like flowerchild now. Alot of different teachings ask us to transcend our own daily "illusions" ... to find peace and harmony within ourselves and others.....going to stop now. I can go on for many days. Try reading "Communicatons with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. I didnt totally agree with all his writing but did find alot of good arguments about God.
"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student: "From...God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student: "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.
"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him"
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.
The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says, "This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do"
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
With all due respect, this is ridiculous propaganda bullshit.
Faith (in my locality)???, WHICH once again, COMPLIES TO TALE CHASING THEORY...
I like it when people use Love as a synonym for God...
the next question i have for the athiests in the pak, is who do you call for on a cold and lonely night...times of despair? i mean, when i am having a difficult time, i always look to the energy forces around me and i say how grateful i am, sort of like indegenous folks who pray to the fish when they are hungry...who do you turn to?
how can you be humble when you serve only the SELF? does serving others always end up back to square 1? ie serving the self....
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
It is not necessary to belong to an organized religion to have faith in a higher power or "God" ... what all religions come down to is one basic principle: LOVE. Okay... starting to feel like flowerchild now. Alot of different teachings ask us to transcend our own daily "illusions" ... to find peace and harmony within ourselves and others.....going to stop now. I can go on for many days. Try reading "Communicatons with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. I didnt totally agree with all his writing but did find alot of good arguments about God.
You can join my power any ol' day...the power of the Flower, that is!!!!
Please go on for days on end, I need a feeding....!!!! thanks for this; becasue as i said a couple of posts back, I believe that LOVE is God...and that God is LOVE and when I transform love into peace....we have to realize that we cannot know true peace without being completely empty...
we also have to realize that sometimes out of PEACE, derives the sound of thunder....a perfect example...
xox
We are children of a Divine Organization
We receive many blessings.
We are grateful to be....
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
With all due respect, this is ridiculous propaganda bullshit.
That's fine if you think that. It's just a write-up on why because you don't physically see God that faith alone is what drives people to believe in Him.
yadda yadda... have to disagree with Mr. Sponger... God is appealling because of supremacy. I think not. You're referring to archaic religious "scare you" tactics. I was raised with no formal organized religion in my life... THANK YOU PARENTS!!! But after all, I still found a sense of God and have faith. No, its not a crutch, I am secure with myself and surroundings.
Whom says the Bible is correct?... for that matter Quran, Bagdahvita,Torah... whatever.
What must be learned from teachings is what they have to say as a matter of being human. About being...
What we need to learn from those whom want emperical evidence of a God ... is to encourage them keep searching...
Carl Sagan was an atheist but believed the more that scientist kept searching the closer we come to the "Creator".. (err... was part of the premise of "Contact") ...
Faith (in my locality)???, WHICH once again, COMPLIES TO TALE CHASING THEORY...
I like it when people use Love as a synonym for God...
the next question i have for the athiests in the pak, is who do you call for on a cold and lonely night...times of despair? i mean, when i am having a difficult time, i always look to the energy forces around me and i say how grateful i am, sort of like indegenous folks who pray to the fish when they are hungry...who do you turn to?
how can you be humble when you serve only the SELF? does serving others always end up back to square 1? ie serving the self....
how is God an absence of faith if one requires it to believe in his existence?
who do i call on in times of despair? no one. i do stupid things and take full responsibility for them. i call on no-one to come save me or help me. i turn inward and attempt to destroy the poison with more poison. does it work? no. i'd like to think it does but i know it doesn't. and this is why i continue to make the same 'mistakes' time and time again.
as for humble. tis not a word i would use to describe myself. though i have to admit when i feel the force of nature i am in awe.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
to seek god, sort of can be interpeted as not having faith in one's self; one's natural flow...therefore finding god says that i can't do it all alone...i am not courageious...help me, O Divine Being....(god is always (a) relative (term)ya know)
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
to seek god, sort of can be interpeted as not having faith in one's self; one's natural flow...therefore finding god says that i can't do it all alone...i am not courageious...help me, O Divine Being....(god is always (a) relative (term)ya know)
hmm... semantics.
you're clutching at straws when you say sort of can be.... but i understand what youre saying. i guess that makes me doubly screwed then doesn't it?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It is not necessary to belong to an organized religion to have faith in a higher power or "God" ... what all religions come down to is one basic principle: LOVE. Okay... starting to feel like flowerchild now. Alot of different teachings ask us to transcend our own daily "illusions" ... to find peace and harmony within ourselves and others.....going to stop now. I can go on for many days. Try reading "Communicatons with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. I didnt totally agree with all his writing but did find alot of good arguments about God.
thats all good....but then all those that believe in God (love) should denounch all organized religions....hate, intollerance....damning to hell..
the next question i have for the athiests in the pak, is who do you call for on a cold and lonely night...times of despair? i mean, when i am having a difficult time, i always look to the energy forces around me and i say how grateful i am, sort of like indegenous folks who pray to the fish when they are hungry...who do you turn to?
....
don't need a mythical character to help us....we look within and deal, cope with our situations.....as what was posted in first page of this thread...religion is a coping mechanism...not that its a bad thing....just what ever it takes I guess to get through the day.....its just when others use religion to be mean...that sucks.
you're clutching at straws when you say sort of can be....
nah, i was trying to allow space as opposed to confinement
but i understand what youre saying. i guess that makes me doubly screwed then doesn't it?
yeah, when you begin to understand me, it can be a scary thing...i am grateful
and since i have you on a thread, i would love to include your piece of poetry as an example of god...i mean, even the niroshima bomb is counted in my new revelations about this god thing...i used to htink that god is only the good...this is where i was way off key....becasue if all particles in the universe are a creation of this Divine, then we have to look at yin/yang; darkness/light; positive/negative; love/hate; open/close, etc...gotta run...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Comments
It's amazing I didn't transform into an entity called RagingBull!!!!
I understand circular thinking, but have you ever heard the term, straight line thinking? and if so, is this a parallel to boxxed up style thinking?
please don't use those words, like fallacy, don't ya know by now, they scare the shit out of me? thanks for the hug...i needed it.
and i do not think that anyone who discouunts God is beign disrespectful....i have learned more thna you will ever realize...thank you for your Divine presence in my journey, sponger....
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
You mean linear thinking? Yes I am familiar with this concept. Would I compare it to "boxed in" thinking? That depends on where the line is going.
Please do not consider my presence divine. Divinity and clarity are mutually exclusive concepts.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
becasue to me...
truth seeking and critical thinking are both part of Divine...
tale chasing theory tells me so....xox.
are you god? well, i don't know, you could be....
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Given the obviousness of my not being god, I am left pondering the motive behind the posing of that question. I rule out facetiousness because you haven't exhibited an affinity for sarcasm in this thread at least.
My guess is that you are hoping that I have a longing for admiration, and will not pass up the opportunity to be seen as a god. You think atheists are so lacking in a moral foundation that they are given to occasionally entertaining delusions of grandjeur such as the possibility of being a supreme supernatural entity.
And when I take the bait, you will seize the opportunity to prove that, once and for all, atheists are really just malignant narcissists whose denouncement of god is indicative of a desire to compete with his greatness.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Given the obviousness of my not being god, I am left pondering the motive behind the posing of that question. I rule out facetiousness because you haven't exhibited an affinity for sarcasm in this thread at least.
facetiousness = frivolity? thanks for the new word...at first i thought of many faces..
I think I cannot rule out that you are a messenger of the god with_in. All events serve this cause for me. I take each and every action or movement that becomes to my awareness as a symbol from a GREAT MASTER, (whether this master is internal or external compares with the wagging tale theory......i am not being ficticious; this is true...i let vibrational forces of entity have an influence. by doing so, i become more ONE with my environment. therefore if i talk to you you become a part of me and your molecular breakdown infiltrates my BEing...crazy...yeah, oh well...
My guess is that you are hoping that I have a longing for admiration, and will not pass up the opportunity to be seen as a god.
no, i think i can vibe that you detest admiration and will test your grounds as any human will when being backed against a wall. my senses tell me you are a human that thrives on truth and rationale...you like to perhaps look at relationships in the terms of an onion...hell in that sense you are a great farmer...
You think atheists are so lacking in a moral foundation that they are given to occasionally entertaining delusions of grandjeur such as the possibility of being a supreme supernatural entity.
I don't think anything about anybody as far as moral foundation goes...I am at the bottom of a barrel.... But your statement introduces me to another perspective of what atheism stands for...i think it's non existant, atleast in my universe. i am too weak. and i know i have no answers..but for all I know god could be my imaginary friend as well...it's all just amazing to me to have a period of time in life where one can really look at evolution of One's alchemy...all people should try to really get to know one's self...
And when I take the bait, you will seize the opportunity to prove that, once and for all, atheists are really just malignant narcissists whose denouncement of god is indicative of a desire to compete with his greatness.
yes..i can see where having the idea of god does appeal to one's sense of humility...and yet, i can only see the purpose of god for myself is to try to please the god inside me and be open...but my interaction with god is not blame or bargain or lean on, i should be a whole enough person to stand on my own feet and flow with the tides...god should be be you...becasus it goes back to how i feel...god should be the sponge we leave our toxins with...and then we can move on..we certainly can't go out spitting our venom if we are to open up to a diversely, symbiotic, and interactive universe becasue it (b*s*) will contaminate and multiply.......and then return on your door step like a mountain, only magnified.....
so, sorry, sponger, i just proved to myself that you are god...damn.
invest in the SELF, it's a great opportunity...peace.
http://www.phosphenism.com/faqtechnic.html#Q14 i thought i would sneak this in; it's a great read and study...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
But the problem is that you don't seem to know what that word really means. All you know is that god is superior. There's more to life than that.
Wow, what a bunch of nonsense. I especially enjoyed the part where they try to correlate the value of spirituality with the value of subjectivity by highlighting Einstein's dream about spheres, which supposedly led to his theory of relativity.
What that writer fails to understand is that abstract thinking is not the same thing as subjectivity, and that Einstein had a deformed brain which allowed both hemispheres to communicate without the reliance on language, thus leading to the use of abstract symbols. In no way does this constitute subjective thinking.
As I was expecting you to do, you resorted to posting a big wordy link and passing it off as the basis for your viewpoint, so as to compensate for not really having one -or at least one that you can describe in your own words.
I implore you to have some original thought and at least the dignity to formulate your own views. You seem curious and intelligent enough to do that. Don't sell yourself short just to have the last word in an internet conversation.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
more realization...thanks sponger...i am trying to follow this advice.....
(at the risk of displaying my MO...).
are you saying that eienstein created these symbols and the rest of people use qeuies for suggestion upon seeing them...and then you make wonder what's wrong with my brain...why do i resist logical thinking...? is it nature or nurture...f*ck, i just dont know...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
No, I haven't. Another book to add to the list. I just read everything they had in the local library, one was written by the dalai lama, the others were introductions to buddhism, buddhist stories, zen stories... And one book a teacher lent to me, it compared buddhism to christianity, islam and hinduism.
naděje umírá poslední
Einstein did not create spheres. He mind just used them to get to a point. One of the known barriers to creativity is the breakdown of communication between the left and right hemispheres.
Most people use known language to process information in their heads. That is, when we analyze, we rely on the form of communication that we are given to using.
However, the part of Einstein's brain that dealt with language was under-developed, but the left and right hemispheres had shallower barrier, so he was able to make up for his lack of linguistics ability with raw symbolism.
Basically, it's the same type of analysis, but in his own language, which was abstract symbolism. It's just another way of achieving the same ends.
So, that's why I say it has little to do with subjectivity. The spheres didn't represent an emotional interpretation. They represented an analytical interpretation but in his own language.
Why does your mind resist logical thinking? The answer to that is the same answer to why all minds resist logical thinking.
I read a quote on here somewhere which said something about ignorance being the illusion of knowledge. If it is your personal interest to see beyond the conventional wisdom, then you're going to have to spend a great deal of time coming to terms with what you think you know, but actually don't.
A study was done a few years back which found that when the human ego is bruised, the brain sends out signals that closely resemble the signals it sounds out when the body experiences physical pain. That is, it's a stressful and anxiety-ridden experience for our brains to release our perceived sense of control over the world around us.
Like I said earlier, humility is a by-product of curiosity. When we as individuals are truly curious about a particular subject, we ignore the status indicators that would otherwise hold us back. Those status indicators are what give us our sense of complacency, which in turn prevent us from delving further.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Colin: I loved the link about Buddist philosophy. There was a quote within that gave me a lot to think about. It stated something like this: Unless your voice improves the silence, be silent. I love that..In fact, you probably delivered a life saving device...
Sponger: I love how you break a topic down so that others can understand a concept in layman's terms. I wonder if my mind works a bit like ol Al's. I can see things and formulate ideas in my mind (third eye, if you would...) but when it comes to truly processing, everything gets caught up somewhere in a maze...it's like when i am trying to solve an algebraic problem...as my mind starts the process, the stimulus travels, but then becasue of inexperience or lack of something (confidence??) it's like the imformation hits a brick wall...i get lost in a process.
I don't really wanna be the last word on an internet, my intentions are to learn and if asking questions presents that image to others, then that's their mirror to reflect. I truly know my intentions for myself and that is to find a path that compliments my existence on this plane and to learn how to adapt.
more appropriately with the gifts that I have. Then be able to give back...
my next question concerns your statement about the human brain being bruised.
who determines ego? is not our ego a product of societal influence? i can see this has happened to me a thousand times. i would just a soon, run like the wind than to face up to inward struggle (ridiculous waste of energy i might add), although, for a long time now, i have been making a practice to overcome...
and would this not help people heal better with their physical struggles, if we could step away from ego?
You say humility is a by product of curiosity. Well, can't we have curiousity and be humble...or are you saying we can have both...oops, I think I answered that by my economics background... (by products co-exist) Is humility a compliment to curiousity? Or does humility temper our curiousity...?
Pearl Jammers: thank you to all...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student: "From...God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student: "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.
"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him"
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.
The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says, "This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do"
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
it's very nice to meet you...thank you so much...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
darkness is an absence of light. again i can understand that. i have experienced light, every day i experience light. so when it becomes absent i have something with which to compare it to.
GOD. he is not here. he has never been here. i can not use any of my senses to make sense of him. nor can i use any of my senses to verify his existence. i have nothing to compare him to. there is nothing to compare him to. God is the absence of ...?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Gotta love the part where the student argues against evolution because we've never seen it just like we've never seen the professor's brain. So, by that rationale, the science of anatomy is lacking objectivity because we can't see our own brains...lmfao.
According to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that people have brains, and using common sense, we know that the professor is a person. Therefore, using the powers of deduction, we conclude the professor has a brain.
...that science stuff sure is confusing...good thing the bible tells us all we need to know.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
yes... the bible tells me everything i need to know about the judeo-christian religion.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Welcome to your own brainwashing.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
With all due respect, this is ridiculous propaganda bullshit.
naděje umírá poslední
I like it when people use Love as a synonym for God...
the next question i have for the athiests in the pak, is who do you call for on a cold and lonely night...times of despair? i mean, when i am having a difficult time, i always look to the energy forces around me and i say how grateful i am, sort of like indegenous folks who pray to the fish when they are hungry...who do you turn to?
how can you be humble when you serve only the SELF? does serving others always end up back to square 1? ie serving the self....
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Please go on for days on end, I need a feeding....!!!! thanks for this; becasue as i said a couple of posts back, I believe that LOVE is God...and that God is LOVE and when I transform love into peace....we have to realize that we cannot know true peace without being completely empty...
we also have to realize that sometimes out of PEACE, derives the sound of thunder....a perfect example...
xox
We are children of a Divine Organization
We receive many blessings.
We are grateful to be....
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
That's fine if you think that. It's just a write-up on why because you don't physically see God that faith alone is what drives people to believe in Him.
Whom says the Bible is correct?... for that matter Quran, Bagdahvita,Torah... whatever.
What must be learned from teachings is what they have to say as a matter of being human. About being...
What we need to learn from those whom want emperical evidence of a God ... is to encourage them keep searching...
Carl Sagan was an atheist but believed the more that scientist kept searching the closer we come to the "Creator".. (err... was part of the premise of "Contact") ...
have ya ever thought about the etymology of the word human?
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
how is God an absence of faith if one requires it to believe in his existence?
who do i call on in times of despair? no one. i do stupid things and take full responsibility for them. i call on no-one to come save me or help me. i turn inward and attempt to destroy the poison with more poison. does it work? no. i'd like to think it does but i know it doesn't. and this is why i continue to make the same 'mistakes' time and time again.
as for humble. tis not a word i would use to describe myself. though i have to admit when i feel the force of nature i am in awe.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
thank you...
to seek god, sort of can be interpeted as not having faith in one's self; one's natural flow...therefore finding god says that i can't do it all alone...i am not courageious...help me, O Divine Being....(god is always (a) relative (term)ya know)
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
hmm... semantics.
you're clutching at straws when you say sort of can be.... but i understand what youre saying. i guess that makes me doubly screwed then doesn't it?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
thats all good....but then all those that believe in God (love) should denounch all organized religions....hate, intollerance....damning to hell..
yeah, when you begin to understand me, it can be a scary thing...i am grateful
and since i have you on a thread, i would love to include your piece of poetry as an example of god...i mean, even the niroshima bomb is counted in my new revelations about this god thing...i used to htink that god is only the good...this is where i was way off key....becasue if all particles in the universe are a creation of this Divine, then we have to look at yin/yang; darkness/light; positive/negative; love/hate; open/close, etc...gotta run...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light