people who have a false set of integrity are those who will say they forgive you and yet the forgiveness is only a set of words, but their actions by blocking out others and interfering by "fix it" or save the world idealogy...says an entirely different statemet...
or do it my way or hit the highway and then i will not give you recognition for trying to make a bad situation bettter...and then becsue you are different than me, i will go around "dissing" you so that you have no other options...
when i say seek a Source for a resource...meaning...well, my mom is great one for this...she goes to her bible studies faithfully on fridays and is in chruch on sunday, yet her detest and ire for people of other cultures contradicts all of God's intent...when I tell my mom that her behavior is unbecoming, and how does this serve God, she replies to me, Well that's the beauty of it...God has to accept me for who and what i do...I think that she thinks God serves her...and that she is not to serve the Good...
and there are others who think that within their click, they are the best fan or the best proponent for freedom and enlightenment but when someone comes to them after behaving innappropriately to apologize, they wish you the best, but say they don't want to interact with you....that's not false???...i wish you well, but i don't want to have anything to do with you....{cut off any free flow--door closes)
the idea of A Source is to find your balance within...the idea of a Source for myself is to find my heart and my rhythm...what makes me complimented and thriving....
flowing freely for me means just BE...without interfering with or without interference....
like standing back and watching something so marvelous...and wanting to attain that state, but always encouraging freedom...sort of like how we admire birds in flight or anything out in nature....
There's a lot in this bit...
I think though that everyone (you, your mother, the people who forgive but then stand back) alive is just trying to make sense of their world. We all have to steer the boat (or let it drift as you seem to prefer) the best we can.
Everyone wants love, everyone wants forgiveness and acceptance, but I think hurting others has consequences. People may choose not to be involved with things and people that hurt them...only God has to love unconditionally. People may try but they can't always do it if it brings out the worst in others.
People who forgive too much are called "enablers" by observers. And, they are not remembering to love themselves. So, where's the balance? Are we all meant to sacrifice ourselves? Only some of us? Who's to know what is right?
Shouldn't love and change for the betterment of all be joined?
the best part of God is that even skeptics are included...
the people who i refer to in these examples are even part of this path we call our self. to honor living is to love and many say that love is part of God...
whether these individuals choose to look at me from an eye of love, does not affect the choices that i am to make concerning them. i would only want to serve a higher dimension of my own self.
when we say to think openly, well then to think openly is to at least acknowledge a possibility that there is God...shining thru...
God, to me, does not exist. I do acknowledge that I could be wrong and that means that I also accept there could be a god. Just as a person who believes in god probably accepts he could be wrong as well, yet I'm sure he'll know, feel that there is a god. I feel and know that there is no god. And if a god were to exist, I think it would be nothing like the biblical god, or the muslim god or whatever... I think it would be something as a 'force', like gravity. A force that does not care about us, that does not comprehend us.
I do recognize god in other people, I see people who have done amazing things, who have been completely selfless, compassionate and basically wonderful human beings. If they say they made their choices because of god, or they were inspired by the beautiful entity which they call god or believe to be god... that's wonderful and great.
On the other hand, god is a meaningless concept to me. In the sense that it has no meaning, it is a void. I know there is a christian god, a muslim god etc. but I don't believe in these concepts, I can accept people do and when they talk about their god I know what they mean by it, yet I can't fill this void the same way they do. It's a blank to me. Some people fill this blank space, god, with goodness, beauty and respect. Others fill it with hatred, bigotry.
Anyway melodious, this is a nice thread. I think you might like these:
Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth. Dhammapada
I think though that everyone (you, your mother, the people who forgive but then stand back) alive is just trying to make sense of their world. We all have to steer the boat (or let it drift as you seem to prefer) the best we can.
i find a lot of wisdom here ;however, i wouldnt' call my style a drift, moreso to roll with the waves as opposed to interjecting my will or control......
Everyone wants love, everyone wants forgiveness and acceptance, but I think hurting others has consequences. People may choose not to be involved with things and people that hurt them...only God has to love unconditionally. People may try but they can't always do it if it brings out the worst in others.
i can and appreciate this philosphy, but if people are
claiming God's grace, should we not try to be more open to look and see what is to be derived from an event, as opposed to summing up an opinion that was reinforced by an unpleasant event? are we to run from every unpleasant event or experience when we can choose another option or consider these events as learning tools in the lessons of life? ie opportunity out of adversity???
People who forgive too much are called "enablers" by observers. And, they are not remembering to love themselves. So, where's the balance? Are we all meant to sacrifice ourselves? Only some of us? Who's to know what is right?
this is true in the eyes of a majority. and yet true open thinking and pathfinding has to allow for trial and error. i think we can exercise forgiveness in every aspect of our interactions and perhaps our world might not be where we are...we can break forgiveness down to forgiving ourselves, and if we can forgive ourselves, it's ourselves we have to confront in reflection. if we don't break down forgiveness for ourselves, then how can we forgive anyone else....how does this shine Light of LOVE...
Shouldn't love and change for the betterment of all be joined?
this is the hope, but even this goes back to learning to shine together as one BEAM....there are many particles..so i guess even particles like the subject matter in my examples are part toooo....
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
God, to me, does not exist. I do acknowledge that I could be wrong and that means that I also accept there could be a god. Just as a person who believes in god probably accepts he could be wrong as well, yet I'm sure he'll know, feel that there is a god. I feel and know that there is no god. And if a god were to exist, I think it would be nothing like the biblical god, or the muslim god or whatever... I think it would be something as a 'force', like gravity. A force that does not care about us, that does not comprehend us.
does not the fact that god does not exist to you, support that god does exist to you? ...this is where i can see you, Collin, as an average HUman going about your business in life...where you are sitting in your laboratory of logical thinking pondering...and all of a sudden someone taps you on the shoulder and says, Congratulations! you have just won a scholarship from the universe for exemplifiying God in the hieghest manner...i think God is in you and all of us because after i have thought about this topic, it does seem that many people do seek some type of higher consciousness in some shape or form...is this God we seek, or an understanding between our rational and our actions.
I do recognize god in other people, I see people who have done amazing things, who have been completely selfless, compassionate and basically wonderful human beings. If they say they made their choices because of god, or they were inspired by the beautiful entity which they call god or believe to be god... that's wonderful and great.
do you think that maybe what is determined as God (an outside Deity) is just another interpretation of seeking self actualization? i agree here...but do these people psych themselves up becasue they can't recognize thier value to a cosmic system or do they commit righteous acts to serve a Higher source?
myself, i am a bit egocentric and this conversation is helping me "drift" away from that trait so that i can Serve and learn more humility. this is difficult to do...someone tells me to achieve humility is to serve others...and when i try to follow this philosophy another person suggests that i am being codependent ...you see this dilemman...
On the other hand, god is a meaningless concept to me. In the sense that it has no meaning, it is a void.
i already believe your mention of god contradicts these words...
I know there is a christian god, a muslim god etc. but I don't believe in these concepts, I can accept people do and when they talk about their god I know what they mean by it, yet I can't fill this void the same way they do. It's a blank to me. Some people fill this blank space, god, with goodness, beauty and respect. Others fill it with hatred, bigotry.
you seem to fill this blank with a variety...
Anyway melodious, this is a nice thread. I think you might like these:
Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth. Dhammapada
when i say seek a Source for a resource...meaning...well, my mom is great one for this...she goes to her bible studies faithfully on fridays and is in chruch on sunday, yet her detest and ire for people of other cultures contradicts all of God's intent...when I tell my mom that her behavior is unbecoming, and how does this serve God, she replies to me, Well that's the beauty of it...God has to accept me for who and what i do...I think that she thinks God serves her...and that she is not to serve the Good...
Your mom's intolerance of other cultures is not derived from a lack of faith in god, or from her indifference towards the perception of what is unbecoming.
In fact, the fact that she is still honest about her judgmental views in spite their obvious contradiction to the teachings of your religion means that there is a part of her deep down inside that still wants to the know the truth.
What she is saying is, "Please help me have an open mind because religion certainly is not the answer."
An intolerance of other cultures cannot be explained away with the words "unbecoming" and "devotion to god." There are reasons why she harbors these points of view, and those reasons have to do with human nature.
In simple terms, your mom doesn't understand herself well enough to be able to identify the similarities between her culture and the culture of others. And yet even deeper below the surface is your mom's inability to differentiate between herself and her own culture.
Since she could learn to walk and talk, she was raised to believe not in herself, but in the culture with which she was expected to identify. As time went on, she lost touch with the person she was beneath those learned perceptions, and she substituted that lost persona with "culture."
But, culture is a nonsensical and regressive institution. It promulgates false beliefs about who we are as human beings. The mind becomes diseased with fear and an unmet yearning for acceptance, and the only way it is able to rationalize this grotesque state of being is by casting judgment on anything it identifies as foriegn to its realm of understanding.
In most cases, religion is the way out of this self-perpetuating pattern of negativity because god is the ultimate appeal to authority. The mind readily accepts the concept of a god because the mind has long succumbed to the notion of perceived "superiority" being the ends that justify the means.
And the fact that your mom rejects god as the justification for the abandonment of her judgmental views means that she holds onto her desire to remember who she was before "culture" stepped in and robbed her of her true sense of humanity.
...someone tells me to achieve humility is to serve others...and when i try to follow this philosophy another person suggests that i am being codependent ...you see this dilemman...
do you think that maybe what is determined as God (an outside Deity) is just another interpretation of seeking self actualization? i agree here...but do these people psych themselves up becasue they can't recognize thier value to a cosmic system or do they commit righteous acts to serve a Higher source?
I don't know the answer to this.
myself, i am a bit egocentric and this conversation is helping me "drift" away from that trait so that i can Serve and learn more humility. this is difficult to do...someone tells me to achieve humility is to serve others...and when i try to follow this philosophy another person suggests that i am being codependent ...you see this dilemman...
It doesn't have to be a dilemma. Life is a process, I once read or heard that people don't change, they just become more themselves, and I agree with that. You aren't a fixed personality, you learn new things every day, you experience new things... your person expands. So if you want to learn more humility, do what you need to do. It's not because a person suggests you are codependent that it's true. Even if you become codependent, you might find your balance the very next day.
i already believe your mention of god contradicts these words...
I disagree, sort of. It isn't a completely blank word, I can fill it with the christian concept of god. But I don't believe in god. So I also don't believe in that meaning. I know some people say nature is god, or kindness towards others is god etc.
But to me nature is nature and kindness is kindness.
It's very hard to explain.
you seem to fill this blank with a variety...
Actually, I don't. Other people do. To me god is a concept of other people, this concept does not affect me. So whether a person believes in god or not is not important to me, because it has no meaning to me. Their actions, however, can affect me. Besides history has proven that a person's religion does not indicate whether that person is a good or bad human being.
If a person wants to be good, he can be good with or without god. If a person wants to be evil, he can be evil with or without god.
I am talking about belief on a personal level here, Christianity or Islam as a belief system is a different thing, imo.
she doesn't articulate...she only says becasue i say...can you imagine being raised with rule and no reason?
thank you for looking at this with me...the confusion that has been fed to me has brought me (as i have discovered) to be almost inept in communicating and breaking down rationale...i see my mom as narrow minded and try to forgive and teach her how to have an open mind but, it always ends up in a blasting match...nobody wins and i always feels sickened...
will be back to edit and respond...again thank you so much
she never went to church my entire life...i was raised to choose my own faith. my father never went to church and felt that churches were full of hypocrites (oklahoma --post depression) he was not a man of god, but yet in my opinion, he was more truthful and honest than anyone i had in my life at the tiem....he did have a bit of a temper though, and me being me....;)
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
she doesn't articulate...she only says becasue i say...can you imagine being raised with rule and no reason?
thank you for looking at this with me...the confusion that has been fed to me has brought me (as i have discovered) to be almost inept in communicating and breaking down rationale...i see my mom as narrow minded and try to forgive and teach her how to have an open mind but, it always ends up in a blasting match...nobody wins and i always feels sickened...
You can't teach someone to have an open mind by telling them it's unbecoming to have one that is closed, or that it's not the way in which god is to be served.
In fact, if your mind has been forced open by those two concepts alone then I would say there is doubt as to whether your views differ all that much from your mom's. You might just be supressing them because you know that you're not supposed to have them as a person of god. Just because you ignore them doesn't mean they're not there.
i didn't tell her that her closed mind is unbecoming; i told her that her racism and nativism, and patriotism is unbecoming...but mostly her racism....;). the ideas i posed about god serving her was how i interpret her application of al this chruch she goes to. i never made a comment to her; in fact i followed protocol and silenced myself, when she told me a bunch of rhetoric...
for me telling her or should i say asserting a principle that is righteous and correct to my mom when she is being ugly towards others is like a test of courage or a measurement for growth..... in past i would keep trying to attain her approval.
You might just be supressing them because you know that you're not supposed to have them as a person of god.
care to explain this..what you mean?
all i can say is that if i met someone like this person, that i don't think i would want to befriend him/her.. i feel that people who demmonstrate some sense of superiority over others feed more separatism ; therefore until i have the tools or peace to interact cordially it's best for me to stay away...bottom line, social cancer... i don't really think God has anything to do with how I feel about about "do unto others, as you would have done unto you..." Even when my back is turned on God, I still try to give the best of myself... she has a bit of bully mentality and it's a behavior that i find loathesome... i guess maybe i don't respond well...
i can see the engine's still running...
and the boxes are definitely abound..
good thing we all have choices...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
i didn't tell her that her closed mind is unbecoming; i told her that her racism and nativism, and patriotism is unbecoming...but mostly her racism....;).
You make it sound as though those concepts are not born from a closed mind. Is that what you really mean to say?
see my mom as narrow minded and try to forgive and teach her how to have an open mind but, it always ends up in a blasting match...
for me telling her or should i say asserting a principle that is righteous and correct to my mom when she is being ugly towards others is like a test of courage or a measurement for growth..... in past i would keep trying to attain her approval.
Being ugly towards others is not ugly. It's irrational. There is no rational foundation for her views. I agree that patience is a sign of strength, but simply challenging the rationale of hers views is not the same thing as casting them down.
care to explain this..what you mean?
Up to that point, your reason for being against your mother's views was that such views are simply not god's will. Now you want to say that it's merely a case of simple humane logic. That's fine if you want to say that. Still, there's more to it than that. Racism is not disproved with a simple "do unto others" logic. Racism is an entire system of logic with a myriad of talking points that aren't just hushed away on basis that it is anti-social.
all i can say is that if i met someone like this person, that i don't think i would want to befriend him/her.. i feel that people who demmonstrate some sense of superiority over others feed more separatism ; therefore until i have the tools or peace to interact cordially it's best for me to stay away...bottom line, social cancer... i don't really think God has anything to do with how I feel about about "do unto others, as you would have done unto you..." Even when my back is turned on God, I still try to give the best of myself... she has a bit of bully mentality and it's a behavior that i find loathesome... i guess maybe i don't respond well...
You shy away from a judgmental mentality because doing so appeals to your sense of harmony, which you practice with or without the teachings of religion. Apparently you are willing to accept a secular view on togetherness, but I was hoping you'd unleash a biblical foundation for it.
Did not George Harrison say, "I really want to know you....I really want to see you.....I really want to be with you, Lord"....and then get sued for ripping somebody else's song off?
Yeah, Moses has a bulldog of a legal team.
one foot in the door
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
You make it sound as though those concepts are not born from a closed mind. Is that what you really mean to say?
maybe...i have only recently tried to break down this relationship...
But here you say she never went to church
she didnot go to church until the past two years. she chose this chruch becsue it was the church her son went to before he was found dead in a hotel room out of state...
he was her prodigal son, the one who could do no wrong...the one that she let stay in her home while he did his dope and drank...the one who she paid $30. an hour for his carpentry skills while he also collected social security...the same son, who divorced his wife to get the Social Security...the same son who pulled a gun on me, and the same son who had intolerance towards diversity...
But here you say you try to teach her to have an open mind and that things end up in a "blasting match." So much for silencing yourself...
no...i am not trying to teach...moreso, trying to learn...
on this particular event, there was no yelling...and usually never is..it's more of a tone she puts out and i silence myself...and then we change the subject and talk about the "Giants" or some other unmeaningful topic...for me, i was proud to assert for once, because maybe she is acting like the little girl who was never taught to love beyond her Barrios...obviously, she has to see that having an open heart gives us so much more to our lives...maybe she is really afraid and the qualities i detest (fear) is fossilized behavior....
i can see though by exploring this, tht i need to go back to the drawing table becasue i am guilty of questioning her intent...and when we do that, it eats our hearts...
Being ugly towards others is not ugly. It's irrational. There is no rational foundation for her views. I agree that patience is a sign of strength, but simply challenging the rationale of hers views is not the same thing as casting them down.
which avenue would you follow? does not this style of thinking deserve to be cast out?
Up to that point, your reason for being against your mother's views was that such views are simply not god's will.
if god is everything then her views are of God...they are the yang of the yin.....if i go on any further i am questioning her intent.......
Now you want to say that it's merely a case of simple humane logic. That's fine if you want to say that.
nothing is set in stone...i don't claim to have a rational mind, nor a set style ...or maybe I have a style in no style.....how can i say anything about logic or claim logic, when it's a foreigner to me?.
Still, there's more to it than that. Racism is not disproved with a simple "do unto others" logic. Racism is an entire system of logic with a myriad of talking points that aren't just hushed away on basis that it is anti-social.
do you not think that racism would be curbed just a smidgeon if HUmans used this philosophy a bit more... Is racism a part of God? yes...if God is everything then all systmes in the universe are part of God...
but is it up to God to curve all the flaws of HUmans?
and i still wonder about those who claim agnosticism or atheism...What does faith mean to an atheist? does an atheist have faith in the Self...and does calling upon our inner Guide for strength mean we are calling upon God or are we confusing our own strength within with some outside Deity becasue we have been programmed to do so through a nuturing process?
You shy away from a judgmental mentality because doing so appeals to your sense of harmony, which you practice with or without the teachings of religion. Apparently you are willing to accept a secular view on togetherness, but I was hoping you'd unleash a biblical foundation for it.
yet another disappointment!!! I don't quite understand this....secular??? how can I unleash a biblical foundation on anything..I have not read the Bible...so, I am in love with God with an interpretation...I still wonder whether I turn to God becasue I have not yet realized I have all the tools within...
That is a complete 180 from the "god is the way" point of view that one would normally expect to see in a thread like this. There is hope for you yet.
Thank you......!!!!!
I do like the quote from that Book, And God spoke to Moses from a Burning bush....
I think that keeping an open mind is a lesson we as Humans can always improve on...I don't think that the God within me want's to be confined...but then if I look at nature's organizations, their mechanisms do seem to be confine so that these systems can function....
God is opposition too....Hell, God is even in GW......he is the darkness that gives us light...
Life is just amazing.....thanks for this....so very much...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Maybe if we weren't so preoccupied with finding God... or blaming God... or using Him as a crutch for our own personal faults and failures... He would find us.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
which avenue would you follow? does not this style of thinking deserve to be cast out?
No, it deserves to be challenged by being laid out for scrutinization. Most die-hard racists can't wait to give their rationalizations for their racist beliefs. They know it's not as simple as color. They believe that blacks are actually different people beneath their skin and that whites truly are a superior race for more reasons than just skin color alone. That's why I say racism is irrational, not ugly.
Nothing will ever be accomplished by casting things out. It will only resurface somewhere else in some form or another.
if god is everything then her views are of God...they are the yang of the yin.....if i go on any further i am questioning her intent.......nothing is set in stone...i don't claim to have a rational mind, nor a set style ...or maybe I have a style in no style.....how can i say anything about logic or claim logic, when it's a foreigner to me?
Ask her to explain the rationale for her racist views and see if they make sense to you. You can't tell me that she just has something against skin color. That's unlikely. She must have some kind of twisted justification for her closed-mindedness.
do you not think that racism would be curbed just a smidgeon if HUmans used this philosophy a bit more... Is racism a part of God? yes...if God is everything then all systmes in the universe are part of God...
No I don't think racism will ever be curbed by just teaching people the importance of harmony. Like I said, the real cure is to get at their twisted rationale for their racist beliefs.
If it interests you, you might consider my post about culture because the same logic applies to racism. It's a matter of people just not knowing themselves well enough to know the difference between themselves and superficial indicators such as race. They've been raised to believe that there are certain human characteristics which should be shunned, but they refuse to acknowledge their own possession of those characteristics. So, they subconsciously transfer that shunning outlook onto the first thing that appears "different" to them, such as race. Suddenly, they've invented a whole new type of people in their minds, and they've given those people all of the negative characteristics that they refuse to acknowledge in themselves. At least that's my take.
but is it up to God to curve all the flaws of HUmans?
It's not a matter of curbing flaws. It's a matter of acceptance of those flaws and the realization that we all share the same flaws.
and i still wonder about those who claim agnosticism or atheism...What does faith mean to an atheist? does an atheist have faith in the Self...and does calling upon our inner Guide for strength mean we are calling upon God or are we confusing our own strength within with some outside Deity becasue we have been programmed to do so through a nuturing process?
As an atheist, I don't have faith in anything. I have yet to hear why that is something that should bother me.
As I see it, the word faith is often interchangeable with the term "seeking higher consciousness". That is, when a person has faith, he/she has made the decision to seek a higher state of consciousness.
But, in my opinion, a higher state of consciousness does not exist. Rather, a clearer state of consciousness exists. Reality has provided me with much more than any sort of spirituality, IMO.
In fact, in my humble opinion, most if not all people who claim to be pursuing a higher state of consciousness are doing so in spite of the fact that they are far from mastering their given state of consciousness. There is a lot about ourselves and the world around us that is yet to be discovered. The "higher" stuff comes after all of that.
but seriously, i think it shouldn't be so difficult to find your god, if you're gonna have one at all. the trouble is with organized religion, not with the concept of god.
i grew up catholic but i left years ago. tried episcopal, that worked for a while, but now i'm decidedly buddhist. doesn't require a belief in anything other than essential human goodness. works for me.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
i grew up catholic but i left years ago. tried episcopal, that worked for a while, but now i'm decidedly buddhist. doesn't require a belief in anything other than essential human goodness. works for me.
"My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."
-The Dalai Lama
I've read a lot about a lot of religions, and Buddhism is the one that appealed to me the most. The basics of it are so simple and beautiful. I'm not a Buddhist, though, but reading those books really changed me.
haven't absorbed yet...i did realize though that god and open minds are interconnected...like everything else....
it's almost like a little puppy chasing it's tail...which comes first...this note is just to say hey, i appreciate so much the time you have taken for me and also, i am digesting....peace...
if i had a bowdown emoticon, it would be placed here.....xox
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
haven't absorbed yet...i did realize though that god and open minds are interconnected...like everything else....
it's almost like a little puppy chasing it's tail...which comes first...this note is just to say hey, i appreciate so much the time you have taken for me and also, i am digesting....peace...
if i had a bowdown emoticon, it would be placed here.....xox
here ya go:
[size=+3]m(__)m[/size]
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
"My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."
-The Dalai Lama
I've read a lot about a lot of religions, and Buddhism is the one that appealed to me the most. The basics of it are so simple and beautiful. I'm not a Buddhist, though, but reading those books really changed me.
yes, me too. i'm really trying to incorporate the ideas into my daily existence. have you read steve hagen's buddhism plain & simple? it's an excellent introduction.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
Is not Moses saying that he (Moses) wants to know his ownself through the glory of LOVing? Does this not mean that Moses wants to emulate his own eye's vision (perception) of God?
Someone on this board has a signature that says something like, "When did I realize I was God? I was praying and realized I was talking to myself".....
in all honesty i want to reply to your other posts. consider this post an interest payment, because i do not feel that i am being respectful or that i may exhibit an aloof attitude; so please bear with me...thanks..
Can you explain why with something other than "because god is everything"?
i have a hunch you know this is a struggle, but i will give it a shot:
in order love know yourself (god with_in), you must be able to separate your spiritual side the secular side. the further you get away from sustaining materialsism and outside "quik fixes", the closer you get to meet yourSelf..in order to beable to meet yourSelf, you must have courage to face yourself and to begin to realize that
humans have flaws, ...that's where both the open mind and god become interconnected becasue, you must have the faith to hold onto so that you can cope...do we blame god? do we lean on god? do we come to god only as a bargaining tool? well, if ai and ai are one in the same then, we have to learn to lean on ourselves...
to have an open mind...hmm, that's a tool i am wrestling with...it means that you are willing to let all the facts in and possibilities of events...you cannot rule out that even your child is capable of violation...or you can't rule out that some people are genuinely good while others exist such as ted kiczenski or jeffrey dammer...you must be able to weigh in all the evidence...well, if you cannot see the beginning of time; and you don't see how the universe was created, you cannot prove there is no god...by your own accordance...
Yes, god logic is nothing other than circular reasoning's finest moment.
what's this circular reasoning...and what is it's opposite...i believe the tale chasing theory presents an example of circular but there are always two sides to a coin...
Now you're getting somewhere.
yes..we are getting somewhere, aren't we...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
in all honesty i want to reply to your other posts. consider this post an interest payment, because i do not feel that i am being respectful or that i may exhibit an aloof attitude; so please bear with me...thanks..
i have a hunch you know this is a struggle, but i will give it a shot:
in order love know yourself (god with_in), you must be able to separate your spiritual side the secular side. the further you get away from sustaining materialsism and outside "quik fixes", the closer you get to meet yourSelf..in order to beable to meet yourSelf, you must have courage to face yourself and to begin to realize that
humans have flaws, ...that's where both the open mind and god become interconnected becasue, you must have the faith to hold onto so that you can cope...do we blame god? do we lean on god? do we come to god only as a bargaining tool? well, if ai and ai are one in the same then, we have to learn to lean on ourselves...
to have an open mind...hmm, that's a tool i am wrestling with...it means that you are willing to let all the facts in and possibilities of events...you cannot rule out that even your child is capable of violation...or you can't rule out that some people are genuinely good while others exist such as ted kiczenski or jeffrey dammer...you must be able to weigh in all the evidence...well, if you cannot see the beginning of time; and you don't see how the universe was created, you cannot prove there is no god...by your own accordance...
I think you're beginning to understand why people turn to god. You know that they have a difficult time with facing their existence with a sense of clarity, and in order to achieve something to that effect, they must comfort their bruised egos with the blanket of "infinite superiority" that is god. How much courage does it take to face ourselves when we have god on our side? Wouldn't courage be more of a requirement if we tried it without him?
My aim is not to prove that god does not exist. There is just no point in proving that he does. Much of what people claim to be possible "only" with the aid of god can be achieved to an equal if not greater extent without him.
What it boils down to is an earnest desire to experience life on life's terms, and sooner or later the patterns of those who claim "spiritual awareness" ultimately reveal a pronounced inability to deduce those terms without -as byrnzie would put it - a "crutch" to fall back on.
what's this circular reasoning...and what is it's opposite...i believe the tale chasing theory presents an example of circular but there are always two sides to a coin...
Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by repeating the statement in different, yet seemingly stronger terms.
In this case, the circle begins with god being responsible for particular human characteristic, and repeats itself with the rationale of god being responsible for everything.
Another fallacy of reasoning to consider when resorting to the use of god is the appeal to authority. God is the supreme being, so there is no reason to question. It's a convenient position to take when one is at a loss for words.
Comments
There's a lot in this bit...
I think though that everyone (you, your mother, the people who forgive but then stand back) alive is just trying to make sense of their world. We all have to steer the boat (or let it drift as you seem to prefer) the best we can.
Everyone wants love, everyone wants forgiveness and acceptance, but I think hurting others has consequences. People may choose not to be involved with things and people that hurt them...only God has to love unconditionally. People may try but they can't always do it if it brings out the worst in others.
People who forgive too much are called "enablers" by observers. And, they are not remembering to love themselves. So, where's the balance? Are we all meant to sacrifice ourselves? Only some of us? Who's to know what is right?
Shouldn't love and change for the betterment of all be joined?
God, to me, does not exist. I do acknowledge that I could be wrong and that means that I also accept there could be a god. Just as a person who believes in god probably accepts he could be wrong as well, yet I'm sure he'll know, feel that there is a god. I feel and know that there is no god. And if a god were to exist, I think it would be nothing like the biblical god, or the muslim god or whatever... I think it would be something as a 'force', like gravity. A force that does not care about us, that does not comprehend us.
I do recognize god in other people, I see people who have done amazing things, who have been completely selfless, compassionate and basically wonderful human beings. If they say they made their choices because of god, or they were inspired by the beautiful entity which they call god or believe to be god... that's wonderful and great.
On the other hand, god is a meaningless concept to me. In the sense that it has no meaning, it is a void. I know there is a christian god, a muslim god etc. but I don't believe in these concepts, I can accept people do and when they talk about their god I know what they mean by it, yet I can't fill this void the same way they do. It's a blank to me. Some people fill this blank space, god, with goodness, beauty and respect. Others fill it with hatred, bigotry.
Anyway melodious, this is a nice thread. I think you might like these:
Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth.
Dhammapada
http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/resources/buddhistquotes.html
naděje umírá poslední
i find a lot of wisdom here ;however, i wouldnt' call my style a drift, moreso to roll with the waves as opposed to interjecting my will or control......
i can and appreciate this philosphy, but if people are
claiming God's grace, should we not try to be more open to look and see what is to be derived from an event, as opposed to summing up an opinion that was reinforced by an unpleasant event? are we to run from every unpleasant event or experience when we can choose another option or consider these events as learning tools in the lessons of life? ie opportunity out of adversity???
this is true in the eyes of a majority. and yet true open thinking and pathfinding has to allow for trial and error. i think we can exercise forgiveness in every aspect of our interactions and perhaps our world might not be where we are...we can break forgiveness down to forgiving ourselves, and if we can forgive ourselves, it's ourselves we have to confront in reflection. if we don't break down forgiveness for ourselves, then how can we forgive anyone else....how does this shine Light of LOVE... this is the hope, but even this goes back to learning to shine together as one BEAM....there are many particles..so i guess even particles like the subject matter in my examples are part toooo....
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
do you think that maybe what is determined as God (an outside Deity) is just another interpretation of seeking self actualization? i agree here...but do these people psych themselves up becasue they can't recognize thier value to a cosmic system or do they commit righteous acts to serve a Higher source?
myself, i am a bit egocentric and this conversation is helping me "drift" away from that trait so that i can Serve and learn more humility. this is difficult to do...someone tells me to achieve humility is to serve others...and when i try to follow this philosophy another person suggests that i am being codependent ...you see this dilemman...
i already believe your mention of god contradicts these words...
you seem to fill this blank with a variety...
thank you for this...so very much...i can see where sunday evening meditation will be...thank you for helping me sort some stuff out...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Your mom's intolerance of other cultures is not derived from a lack of faith in god, or from her indifference towards the perception of what is unbecoming.
In fact, the fact that she is still honest about her judgmental views in spite their obvious contradiction to the teachings of your religion means that there is a part of her deep down inside that still wants to the know the truth.
What she is saying is, "Please help me have an open mind because religion certainly is not the answer."
An intolerance of other cultures cannot be explained away with the words "unbecoming" and "devotion to god." There are reasons why she harbors these points of view, and those reasons have to do with human nature.
In simple terms, your mom doesn't understand herself well enough to be able to identify the similarities between her culture and the culture of others. And yet even deeper below the surface is your mom's inability to differentiate between herself and her own culture.
Since she could learn to walk and talk, she was raised to believe not in herself, but in the culture with which she was expected to identify. As time went on, she lost touch with the person she was beneath those learned perceptions, and she substituted that lost persona with "culture."
But, culture is a nonsensical and regressive institution. It promulgates false beliefs about who we are as human beings. The mind becomes diseased with fear and an unmet yearning for acceptance, and the only way it is able to rationalize this grotesque state of being is by casting judgment on anything it identifies as foriegn to its realm of understanding.
In most cases, religion is the way out of this self-perpetuating pattern of negativity because god is the ultimate appeal to authority. The mind readily accepts the concept of a god because the mind has long succumbed to the notion of perceived "superiority" being the ends that justify the means.
And the fact that your mom rejects god as the justification for the abandonment of her judgmental views means that she holds onto her desire to remember who she was before "culture" stepped in and robbed her of her true sense of humanity.
Humility is a by-product of curiosity.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
I don't know the answer to this.
It doesn't have to be a dilemma. Life is a process, I once read or heard that people don't change, they just become more themselves, and I agree with that. You aren't a fixed personality, you learn new things every day, you experience new things... your person expands. So if you want to learn more humility, do what you need to do. It's not because a person suggests you are codependent that it's true. Even if you become codependent, you might find your balance the very next day.
I disagree, sort of. It isn't a completely blank word, I can fill it with the christian concept of god. But I don't believe in god. So I also don't believe in that meaning. I know some people say nature is god, or kindness towards others is god etc.
But to me nature is nature and kindness is kindness.
It's very hard to explain.
Actually, I don't. Other people do. To me god is a concept of other people, this concept does not affect me. So whether a person believes in god or not is not important to me, because it has no meaning to me. Their actions, however, can affect me. Besides history has proven that a person's religion does not indicate whether that person is a good or bad human being.
If a person wants to be good, he can be good with or without god. If a person wants to be evil, he can be evil with or without god.
I am talking about belief on a personal level here, Christianity or Islam as a belief system is a different thing, imo.
naděje umírá poslední
she doesn't articulate...she only says becasue i say...can you imagine being raised with rule and no reason?
thank you for looking at this with me...the confusion that has been fed to me has brought me (as i have discovered) to be almost inept in communicating and breaking down rationale...i see my mom as narrow minded and try to forgive and teach her how to have an open mind but, it always ends up in a blasting match...nobody wins and i always feels sickened...
will be back to edit and respond...again thank you so much
she never went to church my entire life...i was raised to choose my own faith. my father never went to church and felt that churches were full of hypocrites (oklahoma --post depression) he was not a man of god, but yet in my opinion, he was more truthful and honest than anyone i had in my life at the tiem....he did have a bit of a temper though, and me being me....;)
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
You can't teach someone to have an open mind by telling them it's unbecoming to have one that is closed, or that it's not the way in which god is to be served.
In fact, if your mind has been forced open by those two concepts alone then I would say there is doubt as to whether your views differ all that much from your mom's. You might just be supressing them because you know that you're not supposed to have them as a person of god. Just because you ignore them doesn't mean they're not there.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
for me telling her or should i say asserting a principle that is righteous and correct to my mom when she is being ugly towards others is like a test of courage or a measurement for growth..... in past i would keep trying to attain her approval.
care to explain this..what you mean?
all i can say is that if i met someone like this person, that i don't think i would want to befriend him/her.. i feel that people who demmonstrate some sense of superiority over others feed more separatism ; therefore until i have the tools or peace to interact cordially it's best for me to stay away...bottom line, social cancer... i don't really think God has anything to do with how I feel about about "do unto others, as you would have done unto you..." Even when my back is turned on God, I still try to give the best of myself... she has a bit of bully mentality and it's a behavior that i find loathesome... i guess maybe i don't respond well...
i can see the engine's still running...
and the boxes are definitely abound..
good thing we all have choices...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
You make it sound as though those concepts are not born from a closed mind. Is that what you really mean to say?
But here you say she never went to church
But here you say you try to teach her to have an open mind and that things end up in a "blasting match." So much for silencing yourself...
Being ugly towards others is not ugly. It's irrational. There is no rational foundation for her views. I agree that patience is a sign of strength, but simply challenging the rationale of hers views is not the same thing as casting them down.
Up to that point, your reason for being against your mother's views was that such views are simply not god's will. Now you want to say that it's merely a case of simple humane logic. That's fine if you want to say that. Still, there's more to it than that. Racism is not disproved with a simple "do unto others" logic. Racism is an entire system of logic with a myriad of talking points that aren't just hushed away on basis that it is anti-social.
You shy away from a judgmental mentality because doing so appeals to your sense of harmony, which you practice with or without the teachings of religion. Apparently you are willing to accept a secular view on togetherness, but I was hoping you'd unleash a biblical foundation for it.
That is a complete 180 from the "god is the way" point of view that one would normally expect to see in a thread like this. There is hope for you yet.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Yeah, Moses has a bulldog of a legal team.
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
he was her prodigal son, the one who could do no wrong...the one that she let stay in her home while he did his dope and drank...the one who she paid $30. an hour for his carpentry skills while he also collected social security...the same son, who divorced his wife to get the Social Security...the same son who pulled a gun on me, and the same son who had intolerance towards diversity... no...i am not trying to teach...moreso, trying to learn...
on this particular event, there was no yelling...and usually never is..it's more of a tone she puts out and i silence myself...and then we change the subject and talk about the "Giants" or some other unmeaningful topic...for me, i was proud to assert for once, because maybe she is acting like the little girl who was never taught to love beyond her Barrios...obviously, she has to see that having an open heart gives us so much more to our lives...maybe she is really afraid and the qualities i detest (fear) is fossilized behavior....
i can see though by exploring this, tht i need to go back to the drawing table becasue i am guilty of questioning her intent...and when we do that, it eats our hearts...
which avenue would you follow? does not this style of thinking deserve to be cast out?
if god is everything then her views are of God...they are the yang of the yin.....if i go on any further i am questioning her intent....... nothing is set in stone...i don't claim to have a rational mind, nor a set style ...or maybe I have a style in no style.....how can i say anything about logic or claim logic, when it's a foreigner to me?.
do you not think that racism would be curbed just a smidgeon if HUmans used this philosophy a bit more... Is racism a part of God? yes...if God is everything then all systmes in the universe are part of God...
but is it up to God to curve all the flaws of HUmans?
and i still wonder about those who claim agnosticism or atheism...What does faith mean to an atheist? does an atheist have faith in the Self...and does calling upon our inner Guide for strength mean we are calling upon God or are we confusing our own strength within with some outside Deity becasue we have been programmed to do so through a nuturing process?
yet another disappointment!!! I don't quite understand this....secular??? how can I unleash a biblical foundation on anything..I have not read the Bible...so, I am in love with God with an interpretation...I still wonder whether I turn to God becasue I have not yet realized I have all the tools within...
Thank you......!!!!!
I do like the quote from that Book, And God spoke to Moses from a Burning bush....
I think that keeping an open mind is a lesson we as Humans can always improve on...I don't think that the God within me want's to be confined...but then if I look at nature's organizations, their mechanisms do seem to be confine so that these systems can function....
God is opposition too....Hell, God is even in GW......he is the darkness that gives us light...
Life is just amazing.....thanks for this....so very much...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Hail, Hail!!!
No, it deserves to be challenged by being laid out for scrutinization. Most die-hard racists can't wait to give their rationalizations for their racist beliefs. They know it's not as simple as color. They believe that blacks are actually different people beneath their skin and that whites truly are a superior race for more reasons than just skin color alone. That's why I say racism is irrational, not ugly.
Nothing will ever be accomplished by casting things out. It will only resurface somewhere else in some form or another.
Ask her to explain the rationale for her racist views and see if they make sense to you. You can't tell me that she just has something against skin color. That's unlikely. She must have some kind of twisted justification for her closed-mindedness.
No I don't think racism will ever be curbed by just teaching people the importance of harmony. Like I said, the real cure is to get at their twisted rationale for their racist beliefs.
If it interests you, you might consider my post about culture because the same logic applies to racism. It's a matter of people just not knowing themselves well enough to know the difference between themselves and superficial indicators such as race. They've been raised to believe that there are certain human characteristics which should be shunned, but they refuse to acknowledge their own possession of those characteristics. So, they subconsciously transfer that shunning outlook onto the first thing that appears "different" to them, such as race. Suddenly, they've invented a whole new type of people in their minds, and they've given those people all of the negative characteristics that they refuse to acknowledge in themselves. At least that's my take.
It's not a matter of curbing flaws. It's a matter of acceptance of those flaws and the realization that we all share the same flaws.
As an atheist, I don't have faith in anything. I have yet to hear why that is something that should bother me.
As I see it, the word faith is often interchangeable with the term "seeking higher consciousness". That is, when a person has faith, he/she has made the decision to seek a higher state of consciousness.
But, in my opinion, a higher state of consciousness does not exist. Rather, a clearer state of consciousness exists. Reality has provided me with much more than any sort of spirituality, IMO.
In fact, in my humble opinion, most if not all people who claim to be pursuing a higher state of consciousness are doing so in spite of the fact that they are far from mastering their given state of consciousness. There is a lot about ourselves and the world around us that is yet to be discovered. The "higher" stuff comes after all of that.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
i grew up catholic but i left years ago. tried episcopal, that worked for a while, but now i'm decidedly buddhist. doesn't require a belief in anything other than essential human goodness. works for me.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
"My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."
-The Dalai Lama
I've read a lot about a lot of religions, and Buddhism is the one that appealed to me the most. The basics of it are so simple and beautiful. I'm not a Buddhist, though, but reading those books really changed me.
naděje umírá poslední
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
haven't absorbed yet...i did realize though that god and open minds are interconnected...like everything else....
it's almost like a little puppy chasing it's tail...which comes first...this note is just to say hey, i appreciate so much the time you have taken for me and also, i am digesting....peace...
if i had a bowdown emoticon, it would be placed here.....xox
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
nothing happend
dreamer in my dream
we got the guns
i love you,but im..............callin out.........callin out
here ya go:
[size=+3]m(__)m[/size]
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
yes, me too. i'm really trying to incorporate the ideas into my daily existence. have you read steve hagen's buddhism plain & simple? it's an excellent introduction.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
m(_ _)m: appealing to my creative side...are you serious...?
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
this is one of the most profound quotes I have ever read...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Can you explain why with something other than "because god is everything"?
Yes, god logic is nothing other than circular reasoning's finest moment. Now you're getting somewhere.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
in all honesty i want to reply to your other posts. consider this post an interest payment, because i do not feel that i am being respectful or that i may exhibit an aloof attitude; so please bear with me...thanks..
i have a hunch you know this is a struggle, but i will give it a shot:
in order love know yourself (god with_in), you must be able to separate your spiritual side the secular side. the further you get away from sustaining materialsism and outside "quik fixes", the closer you get to meet yourSelf..in order to beable to meet yourSelf, you must have courage to face yourself and to begin to realize that
humans have flaws, ...that's where both the open mind and god become interconnected becasue, you must have the faith to hold onto so that you can cope...do we blame god? do we lean on god? do we come to god only as a bargaining tool? well, if ai and ai are one in the same then, we have to learn to lean on ourselves...
to have an open mind...hmm, that's a tool i am wrestling with...it means that you are willing to let all the facts in and possibilities of events...you cannot rule out that even your child is capable of violation...or you can't rule out that some people are genuinely good while others exist such as ted kiczenski or jeffrey dammer...you must be able to weigh in all the evidence...well, if you cannot see the beginning of time; and you don't see how the universe was created, you cannot prove there is no god...by your own accordance...
what's this circular reasoning...and what is it's opposite...i believe the tale chasing theory presents an example of circular but there are always two sides to a coin...
yes..we are getting somewhere, aren't we...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
I think you're beginning to understand why people turn to god. You know that they have a difficult time with facing their existence with a sense of clarity, and in order to achieve something to that effect, they must comfort their bruised egos with the blanket of "infinite superiority" that is god. How much courage does it take to face ourselves when we have god on our side? Wouldn't courage be more of a requirement if we tried it without him?
My aim is not to prove that god does not exist. There is just no point in proving that he does. Much of what people claim to be possible "only" with the aid of god can be achieved to an equal if not greater extent without him.
What it boils down to is an earnest desire to experience life on life's terms, and sooner or later the patterns of those who claim "spiritual awareness" ultimately reveal a pronounced inability to deduce those terms without -as byrnzie would put it - a "crutch" to fall back on.
Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by repeating the statement in different, yet seemingly stronger terms.
In this case, the circle begins with god being responsible for particular human characteristic, and repeats itself with the rationale of god being responsible for everything.
Another fallacy of reasoning to consider when resorting to the use of god is the appeal to authority. God is the supreme being, so there is no reason to question. It's a convenient position to take when one is at a loss for words.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825