Saay NO to violence against men!

melodious · November 2007

ahnimus:
I was wondering after thinking about the post you put up last night about the realationship you spoke of concerning cyber-relations. Were you married? And what exactly were the boundaries of your relationship? Do you have children? One key factor I have found as "an abuser" is that I have set up expectations for others when possibly I couldn't even live up to the same stipulations myself. (when I ask if you are married, I mean legally, not a simple cohabitation commitment). Relationships should be mutual and the greatest gift that a relationship should have is to make that mutuality high priority. When we start taking people for granted, we tend to become aloof to their concerns and needs. I just finished this meditation tape that states something like this: Forgive them for they could not fill the gap between the love that was received and love that was needed.

I have found myself caught up in friendships with members of opposite sexes and very close ones at that, but I guess I maintain with all people who come in contact with me that I am a free soul and I cannot put limitation on myself or friendships..Nobody wants to be another person's piece of property...(atleast that's what I have heard--actions speak it differently)..If we look at ourselves as we would a blade of grass...We would let the wind blow around us and still find ourselves adapting.

I have seen a lot of aggression in my day. I think that tolerating abuse is not healthy from either side of a coin..but I also think that your example I read earlier about being soft when your wife was aggressive is highly commendable. The softer we are with eachother, the more we consciously choose to consider the path of others, the less we will observe this degeneration of the Self and those around...

If people could get away from gender and look at behavior in generic terms...I think that all humans will benefit...

If I am asking questions that are too personal, please forgive me...I think that DV is horrible, especially for children who live in this type of energy field., not to mention the wrinkles it puts on one's face...oh i could write this book...

conversation here is exceptional. i always learn from so many here. thank you.

Abuse is like anything else...it's relative concept...what maybe love and affection for one, maybe loathesome for another.

gue_barium · November 2007

My Mom chased me with a broom once.

She couldn't catch me.

Ahnimus · November 2007

melodious wrote:

ahnimus:
I was wondering after thinking about the post you put up last night about the realationship you spoke of concerning cyber-relations. Were you married? And what exactly were the boundaries of your relationship? Do you have children? One key factor I have found as "an abuser" is that I have set up expectations for others when possibly I couldn't even live up to the same stipulations myself. (when I ask if you are married, I mean legally, not a simple cohabitation commitment). Relationships should be mutual and the greatest gift that a relationship should have is to make that mutuality high priority. When we start taking people for granted, we tend to become aloof to their concerns and needs. I just finished this meditation tape that states something like this: Forgive them for they could not fill the gap between the love that was received and love that was needed.

I have found myself caught up in friendships with members of opposite sexes and very close ones at that, but I guess I maintain with all people who come in contact with me that I am a free soul and I cannot put limitation on myself or friendships..Nobody wants to be another person's piece of property...(atleast that's what I have heard--actions speak it differently)..If we look at ourselves as we would a blade of grass...We would let the wind blow around us and still find ourselves adapting.

I have seen a lot of aggression in my day. I think that tolerating abuse is not healthy from either side of a coin..but I also think that your example I read earlier about being soft when your wife was aggressive is highly commendable. The softer we are with eachother, the more we consciously choose to consider the path of others, the less we will observe this degeneration of the Self and those around...

If people could get away from gender and look at behavior in generic terms...I think that all humans will benefit...

If I am asking questions that are too personal, please forgive me...I think that DV is horrible, especially for children who live in this type of energy field., not to mention the wrinkles it puts on one's face...oh i could write this book...

conversation here is exceptional. i always learn from so many here. thank you.

Abuse is like anything else...it's relative concept...what maybe love and affection for one, maybe loathesome for another.

We weren't married. I'm against marriage and not because it's a cover for rape.

Ahnimus · November 2007

gue_barium wrote:

My Mom chased me with a broom once.

She couldn't catch me.

My mom punched me a few times. Tried to cram antihistamines down my throat once. And a couple of other incidences, but all of that pales in comparison to psychological abuse.

genie · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

My mom punched me a few times. Tried to cram antihistamines down my throat once. And a couple of other incidences, but all of that pales in comparison to psychological abuse.

Ahnimus, this is not the first time i read about you experiencing some form of violence. I know you're noone to me, but i feel disgusted with people who harmed you.

Thanks for answering to those questions. You said three quarters of this post is about violence against women.
maybe it's due to women remembering bad things that happened to them and not letting go. i can't speak for every woman, but if something offends me i remember it for a long time and hold a grudge for a long time unless that person gives proper apology.
and maybe it's due to the fact that men, feel ashamed of what happened to them, and as you said it yourself maybe they don't even know it's happening to them.

maybe you should've refused women to post in here

but then we are doing a good job at bumping you thread

OutOfBreath · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

When we are talking about learned behavior, so-called, we are talking about behavior that has a history of reinforcement. At least, so long as we accept some other concepts as true. Ultimately, we need congruence in our fundamentals. I hold that a fact is true if it is scientifically demonstrable. Statistics can fool statisticians and a common argument is "correlation does not mean causation". These presupposed truths are going to be a problem for any debate. The correlation coefficient of the statistics available at statscan is .33, 1 shows a positive relationship, -1 shows a negative relationship. The coefficient for most stats available to us is non-existent. Meaining the correlation coefficient for a study cited in a news article is not readily available to us. It could be .01 or some other absurd value. But to get to the nitty gritty of social issues we need statistics. Certainly we can't just base everything on our own personal experiences. We can't define a truth for society without a consensus of experience. So, if popular culture emphasizes one aspect of an issue like domestic violence, but not another, that does not mean that either is true or not true prima facie. Understanding of social issues must go beyond received wisdom, popular culture or personal experience.

Reading through the posts here, I get what you are on about. And I can sympathize.

However, this excerpt here and in the other thread reveals that your knowledge of statistics and the proper use of them is at times limited. Or rather, that you are emotinally involved with the subject, leading you to do as you accuse me among others for, namely having an ulterior motive.

Which leads me to suggest that you instead of trying to use statistics, you should just argue morally and experientially. You dont want to generalize, then dont use statistics at all, since that is all they do. If you want to talk about how it should be, then dont use statistics. If you want to share your own experience, dont use statistics. When you want to generalize and simplify in order to draw quick conclusions, use statistics and use them correctly.

But yes, stats arent always presented like they should, which is why source is important. But I must again comment that a correlation coefficient of .33 IS a big deal between 2 variables on such complicated and complex subjects as the one at hand. The correlation is undeniable. Causation, however, is debatable.

Ahnimus wrote:

The best measures we have of domestic violence support the theory that men are victims of female violence. We know that many incidences are reported, we can guess that many might not be. Just like we don't know how many women don't report it. I am a non-violent person, I detest violence, yet, I've found violent relationships.

From what I have seen so far, the measures supports that men hurt women and women hurt men. But (slightly, in Canada) more men hurt women, and generally hurt them "harder" physically.

Being involved in the subject does not make for objective asessments. And I am sorry you have experienced violent relationships. Noone is belittling that men are hurt by women. The data just shows the general tendency goes the other way or at best that there is just a small difference in one of the more equal countries in the world.

Peace
Dan

melodious · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

We weren't married. I'm against marriage and not because it's a cover for rape.

I would love to hear your theory about this.. Are you against marriage becasue of commitment or is it just that marriage is a piece of paper that gives title and ownership to humans?

I understand your comment though from my own point of reference...I think that people should be completely freeflowing and love or relationships traveled like a freeway. When I was a bit less experienced in life, I thought that my partner should be everything thing to me...like if we could go off on a deserted island, that we could fullfill each and every void...The truth is though, that no human can be everything to another...We need many relationships to fill our vessel so to speak..Anyway thanks for replying...

Perhaps this thread is gonna give fruit for people and relationships...Keep up you great and generous self...

Good day, Jammers...

genie · November 2007

melodious wrote:

When I was a bit less experienced in life, I thought that my partner should be everything thing to me...like if we could go off on a deserted island, that we could fullfill each and every void...

i see wisdom in your words! if i ever start seeing everything in my boyfriend i want someone to come and kick my arse. cause you are very right in saying we need different people to fullfill us. relationship will become stale if there are only two people living together and only sociolising with each other, we need diverse views form different people

melodious · November 2007

this has been one trinket that i have only come to learn in the past couple of years, actually since I gave myself permission to come out of that "box"...

a friend of mine who is not married but has been in the past, put it like this: I don't have a boyfriend/ I have many companions....yes...we may share our master plan with someone, but to confine relationships between ourselves and others would be the same as saying we can only love God in one way...

and for myself, learning to accept this fundamental principle has taken me out of the abusive league..it is a beginning...

i'm a fuck up what can i say.....at least i know i won't be alive forever

not true.....;)

MahoganySouls · November 2007

I'm sorry, but if you are a man and are being bullied by a woman who is smaller than you, something is terribly wrong with you. Be a man. Stop blaming the woman for your own inadequacies. Sure if she is taking advantage of you she is very wrong. But you are allowing it. OMG!

MahoganySouls · November 2007

genie wrote:

i see wisdom in your words! if i ever start seeing everything in my boyfriend i want someone to come and kick my arse. cause you are very right in saying we need different people to fullfill us. relationship will become stale if there are only two people living together and only sociolising with each other, we need diverse views form different people

Obviously you have never been in a long term commited monogamous relationship. Too bad. You are missing out on something wonderful.

MahoganySouls · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

My mom punched me a few times. Tried to cram antihistamines down my throat once. And a couple of other incidences, but all of that pales in comparison to psychological abuse.

This explains alot.

Ahnimus · November 2007

OutOfBreath wrote:

Reading through the posts here, I get what you are on about. And I can sympathize.

However, this excerpt here and in the other thread reveals that your knowledge of statistics and the proper use of them is at times limited. Or rather, that you are emotinally involved with the subject, leading you to do as you accuse me among others for, namely having an ulterior motive.

Which leads me to suggest that you instead of trying to use statistics, you should just argue morally and experientially. You dont want to generalize, then dont use statistics at all, since that is all they do. If you want to talk about how it should be, then dont use statistics. If you want to share your own experience, dont use statistics. When you want to generalize and simplify in order to draw quick conclusions, use statistics and use them correctly.

But yes, stats arent always presented like they should, which is why source is important. But I must again comment that a correlation coefficient of .33 IS a big deal between 2 variables on such complicated and complex subjects as the one at hand. The correlation is undeniable. Causation, however, is debatable.

From what I have seen so far, the measures supports that men hurt women and women hurt men. But (slightly, in Canada) more men hurt women, and generally hurt them "harder" physically.

Being involved in the subject does not make for objective asessments. And I am sorry you have experienced violent relationships. Noone is belittling that men are hurt by women. The data just shows the general tendency goes the other way or at best that there is just a small difference in one of the more equal countries in the world.

Peace
Dan

You know. You come across as an expert at everything. I really just don't believe you. But thanks for acknowledging that I might have a point. Thankfully, there are plenty of others who do see a problem. Nobody here really, but then your all drunks and mostly Americans with archaic ideologies. Maybe the fact that you're not means something.

My view isn't just based on stats of course. Margaret Mead did a lot of meaningful research on gender differences. I'm sure you know who she is. Susanne Steinmetz did a lot of research on this in the United States. And a whole mess of other people including Jeanie's favorite Erin Prizzy. Then there is the more recent research that studied the effects of stereotyping.

All I want is an unbiased representation. There is no need to do it the way it's being done. It's being done with the radical feminist belief that all men are rapists or at least that no women are rapists. To me, that's just fucking stupid and anyone who agrees with it.

Jeanie · November 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

I'm sorry, but if you are a man and are being bullied by a woman who is smaller than you, something is terribly wrong with you. Be a man. Stop blaming the woman for your own inadequacies. Sure if she is taking advantage of you she is very wrong. But you are allowing it. OMG!

That's really not a very constructive or insightful comment. It pretty much negates and ridicules men that are victims of abuse. And I find it offensive.

Ahnimus · November 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

I'm sorry, but if you are a man and are being bullied by a woman who is smaller than you, something is terribly wrong with you. Be a man. Stop blaming the woman for your own inadequacies. Sure if she is taking advantage of you she is very wrong. But you are allowing it. OMG!

Dude, your a fucking idiot and an asshole. Why don't you just shut the hell up?

Ahnimus · November 2007

I guess I don't really emulate your idol Bill O'Reilly very well.

Ahnimus · November 2007

"...it saddens me that we even have to have a women's movement and a men's movement but really there was no choice. I couldn't stop the feminist movement from hi-jacking my work in London at my refuge in Chiswick. They wanted funding and my work, twenty-five years ago - as the first refuge in the world seemed heaven sent for them. No matter that I told them that out of the first hundred women that came into Chiswick sixty-two were as violent as the men they left. I couldn't get any coverage for the truth. 'All men are bastards and rapists' is the only truth that the women's movement were prepared to hear....Now, with the help of this evil movement father's role in family life seems to be irrelevant....."
- Erin Pizzey

Jeanie · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

And a whole mess of other people including Jeanie's favorite Erin Prizzy. Then there is the more recent research that studied the effects of stereotyping.

She's not necessarily my favorite.

I haven't really spent a lot of time on the subject. But I identify with her more readily I think because I'm familiar with her books.

surferdude · November 2007

Jeanie wrote:

That's really not a very constructive or insightful comment. It pretty much negates and ridicules men that are victims of abuse. And I find it offensive.

Thank you.

OutOfBreath · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

You know. You come across as an expert at everything. I really just don't believe you. But thanks for acknowledging that I might have a point. Thankfully, there are plenty of others who do see a problem. Nobody here really, but then your all drunks and mostly Americans with archaic ideologies. Maybe the fact that you're not means something.

My view isn't just based on stats of course. Margaret Mead did a lot of meaningful research on gender differences. I'm sure you know who she is. Susanne Steinmetz did a lot of research on this in the United States. And a whole mess of other people including Jeanie's favorite Erin Prizzy. Then there is the more recent research that studied the effects of stereotyping.

All fine! The "expert" in me is awakened mostly when statistics are involved, and particularly social statistics as that is, after all, my field. I have little issue with what you say here.

All I want is an unbiased representation. There is no need to do it the way it's being done. It's being done with the radical feminist belief that all men are rapists or at least that no women are rapists. To me, that's just fucking stupid and anyone who agrees with it.

But right here you walk into the stereotyping of feminism trap. The radical feminist you talk of are such a fringe faction in the whole picture. Feminazis exist, and they are not at all representational for anything. Some of those are off their rockers, agreed. That does not go for a an UN agency specifically in this case, nor statistics agencies generally. There may be bias inherent in the data, but that is impossible to avoid for any field. Data must be read for what it is. Interpretation of the data is more loose. (although outright skewing or cherry-picking must be avoided)

As for the general issue, yes stereotyping should be avoided, and we should see things for what they are. However, if data show that there are indeed empirical differences between the sexes, well, then there is a difference between the sexes. As to why, that's something else entirely.

I think we are essentially on the same page, but we rub eachother the wrong way with the delivery.

Peace
Dan

Saay NO to violence against men!

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