ahnimus:
I was wondering after thinking about the post you put up last night about the realationship you spoke of concerning cyber-relations. Were you married? And what exactly were the boundaries of your relationship? Do you have children? One key factor I have found as "an abuser" is that I have set up expectations for others when possibly I couldn't even live up to the same stipulations myself. (when I ask if you are married, I mean legally, not a simple cohabitation commitment). Relationships should be mutual and the greatest gift that a relationship should have is to make that mutuality high priority. When we start taking people for granted, we tend to become aloof to their concerns and needs. I just finished this meditation tape that states something like this: Forgive them for they could not fill the gap between the love that was received and love that was needed.
I have found myself caught up in friendships with members of opposite sexes and very close ones at that, but I guess I maintain with all people who come in contact with me that I am a free soul and I cannot put limitation on myself or friendships..Nobody wants to be another person's piece of property...(atleast that's what I have heard--actions speak it differently)..If we look at ourselves as we would a blade of grass...We would let the wind blow around us and still find ourselves adapting.
I have seen a lot of aggression in my day. I think that tolerating abuse is not healthy from either side of a coin..but I also think that your example I read earlier about being soft when your wife was aggressive is highly commendable. The softer we are with eachother, the more we consciously choose to consider the path of others, the less we will observe this degeneration of the Self and those around...
If people could get away from gender and look at behavior in generic terms...I think that all humans will benefit...
If I am asking questions that are too personal, please forgive me...I think that DV is horrible, especially for children who live in this type of energy field., not to mention the wrinkles it puts on one's face...oh i could write this book...
conversation here is exceptional. i always learn from so many here. thank you.
Abuse is like anything else...it's relative concept...what maybe love and affection for one, maybe loathesome for another.
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
ahnimus:
I was wondering after thinking about the post you put up last night about the realationship you spoke of concerning cyber-relations. Were you married? And what exactly were the boundaries of your relationship? Do you have children? One key factor I have found as "an abuser" is that I have set up expectations for others when possibly I couldn't even live up to the same stipulations myself. (when I ask if you are married, I mean legally, not a simple cohabitation commitment). Relationships should be mutual and the greatest gift that a relationship should have is to make that mutuality high priority. When we start taking people for granted, we tend to become aloof to their concerns and needs. I just finished this meditation tape that states something like this: Forgive them for they could not fill the gap between the love that was received and love that was needed.
I have found myself caught up in friendships with members of opposite sexes and very close ones at that, but I guess I maintain with all people who come in contact with me that I am a free soul and I cannot put limitation on myself or friendships..Nobody wants to be another person's piece of property...(atleast that's what I have heard--actions speak it differently)..If we look at ourselves as we would a blade of grass...We would let the wind blow around us and still find ourselves adapting.
I have seen a lot of aggression in my day. I think that tolerating abuse is not healthy from either side of a coin..but I also think that your example I read earlier about being soft when your wife was aggressive is highly commendable. The softer we are with eachother, the more we consciously choose to consider the path of others, the less we will observe this degeneration of the Self and those around...
If people could get away from gender and look at behavior in generic terms...I think that all humans will benefit...
If I am asking questions that are too personal, please forgive me...I think that DV is horrible, especially for children who live in this type of energy field., not to mention the wrinkles it puts on one's face...oh i could write this book...
conversation here is exceptional. i always learn from so many here. thank you.
Abuse is like anything else...it's relative concept...what maybe love and affection for one, maybe loathesome for another.
We weren't married. I'm against marriage and not because it's a cover for rape.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
My mom punched me a few times. Tried to cram antihistamines down my throat once. And a couple of other incidences, but all of that pales in comparison to psychological abuse.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
My mom punched me a few times. Tried to cram antihistamines down my throat once. And a couple of other incidences, but all of that pales in comparison to psychological abuse.
Ahnimus, this is not the first time i read about you experiencing some form of violence. I know you're noone to me, but i feel disgusted with people who harmed you.
Thanks for answering to those questions. You said three quarters of this post is about violence against women.
maybe it's due to women remembering bad things that happened to them and not letting go. i can't speak for every woman, but if something offends me i remember it for a long time and hold a grudge for a long time unless that person gives proper apology.
and maybe it's due to the fact that men, feel ashamed of what happened to them, and as you said it yourself maybe they don't even know it's happening to them.
maybe you should've refused women to post in here but then we are doing a good job at bumping you thread
When we are talking about learned behavior, so-called, we are talking about behavior that has a history of reinforcement. At least, so long as we accept some other concepts as true. Ultimately, we need congruence in our fundamentals. I hold that a fact is true if it is scientifically demonstrable. Statistics can fool statisticians and a common argument is "correlation does not mean causation". These presupposed truths are going to be a problem for any debate. The correlation coefficient of the statistics available at statscan is .33, 1 shows a positive relationship, -1 shows a negative relationship. The coefficient for most stats available to us is non-existent. Meaining the correlation coefficient for a study cited in a news article is not readily available to us. It could be .01 or some other absurd value. But to get to the nitty gritty of social issues we need statistics. Certainly we can't just base everything on our own personal experiences. We can't define a truth for society without a consensus of experience. So, if popular culture emphasizes one aspect of an issue like domestic violence, but not another, that does not mean that either is true or not true prima facie. Understanding of social issues must go beyond received wisdom, popular culture or personal experience.
Reading through the posts here, I get what you are on about. And I can sympathize.
However, this excerpt here and in the other thread reveals that your knowledge of statistics and the proper use of them is at times limited. Or rather, that you are emotinally involved with the subject, leading you to do as you accuse me among others for, namely having an ulterior motive.
Which leads me to suggest that you instead of trying to use statistics, you should just argue morally and experientially. You dont want to generalize, then dont use statistics at all, since that is all they do. If you want to talk about how it should be, then dont use statistics. If you want to share your own experience, dont use statistics. When you want to generalize and simplify in order to draw quick conclusions, use statistics and use them correctly.
But yes, stats arent always presented like they should, which is why source is important. But I must again comment that a correlation coefficient of .33 IS a big deal between 2 variables on such complicated and complex subjects as the one at hand. The correlation is undeniable. Causation, however, is debatable.
The best measures we have of domestic violence support the theory that men are victims of female violence. We know that many incidences are reported, we can guess that many might not be. Just like we don't know how many women don't report it. I am a non-violent person, I detest violence, yet, I've found violent relationships.
From what I have seen so far, the measures supports that men hurt women and women hurt men. But (slightly, in Canada) more men hurt women, and generally hurt them "harder" physically.
Being involved in the subject does not make for objective asessments. And I am sorry you have experienced violent relationships. Noone is belittling that men are hurt by women. The data just shows the general tendency goes the other way or at best that there is just a small difference in one of the more equal countries in the world.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
We weren't married. I'm against marriage and not because it's a cover for rape.
I would love to hear your theory about this.. Are you against marriage becasue of commitment or is it just that marriage is a piece of paper that gives title and ownership to humans?
I understand your comment though from my own point of reference...I think that people should be completely freeflowing and love or relationships traveled like a freeway. When I was a bit less experienced in life, I thought that my partner should be everything thing to me...like if we could go off on a deserted island, that we could fullfill each and every void...The truth is though, that no human can be everything to another...We need many relationships to fill our vessel so to speak..Anyway thanks for replying...
Perhaps this thread is gonna give fruit for people and relationships...Keep up you great and generous self...
Good day, Jammers...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
When I was a bit less experienced in life, I thought that my partner should be everything thing to me...like if we could go off on a deserted island, that we could fullfill each and every void...
i see wisdom in your words! if i ever start seeing everything in my boyfriend i want someone to come and kick my arse. cause you are very right in saying we need different people to fullfill us. relationship will become stale if there are only two people living together and only sociolising with each other, we need diverse views form different people
this has been one trinket that i have only come to learn in the past couple of years, actually since I gave myself permission to come out of that "box"...
a friend of mine who is not married but has been in the past, put it like this: I don't have a boyfriend/ I have many companions....yes...we may share our master plan with someone, but to confine relationships between ourselves and others would be the same as saying we can only love God in one way...
and for myself, learning to accept this fundamental principle has taken me out of the abusive league..it is a beginning...
i'm a fuck up what can i say.....at least i know i won't be alive forever
not true.....;)
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
I'm sorry, but if you are a man and are being bullied by a woman who is smaller than you, something is terribly wrong with you. Be a man. Stop blaming the woman for your own inadequacies. Sure if she is taking advantage of you she is very wrong. But you are allowing it. OMG!
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
i see wisdom in your words! if i ever start seeing everything in my boyfriend i want someone to come and kick my arse. cause you are very right in saying we need different people to fullfill us. relationship will become stale if there are only two people living together and only sociolising with each other, we need diverse views form different people
Obviously you have never been in a long term commited monogamous relationship. Too bad. You are missing out on something wonderful.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
My mom punched me a few times. Tried to cram antihistamines down my throat once. And a couple of other incidences, but all of that pales in comparison to psychological abuse.
This explains alot.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
Reading through the posts here, I get what you are on about. And I can sympathize.
However, this excerpt here and in the other thread reveals that your knowledge of statistics and the proper use of them is at times limited. Or rather, that you are emotinally involved with the subject, leading you to do as you accuse me among others for, namely having an ulterior motive.
Which leads me to suggest that you instead of trying to use statistics, you should just argue morally and experientially. You dont want to generalize, then dont use statistics at all, since that is all they do. If you want to talk about how it should be, then dont use statistics. If you want to share your own experience, dont use statistics. When you want to generalize and simplify in order to draw quick conclusions, use statistics and use them correctly.
But yes, stats arent always presented like they should, which is why source is important. But I must again comment that a correlation coefficient of .33 IS a big deal between 2 variables on such complicated and complex subjects as the one at hand. The correlation is undeniable. Causation, however, is debatable.
From what I have seen so far, the measures supports that men hurt women and women hurt men. But (slightly, in Canada) more men hurt women, and generally hurt them "harder" physically.
Being involved in the subject does not make for objective asessments. And I am sorry you have experienced violent relationships. Noone is belittling that men are hurt by women. The data just shows the general tendency goes the other way or at best that there is just a small difference in one of the more equal countries in the world.
Peace
Dan
You know. You come across as an expert at everything. I really just don't believe you. But thanks for acknowledging that I might have a point. Thankfully, there are plenty of others who do see a problem. Nobody here really, but then your all drunks and mostly Americans with archaic ideologies. Maybe the fact that you're not means something.
My view isn't just based on stats of course. Margaret Mead did a lot of meaningful research on gender differences. I'm sure you know who she is. Susanne Steinmetz did a lot of research on this in the United States. And a whole mess of other people including Jeanie's favorite Erin Prizzy. Then there is the more recent research that studied the effects of stereotyping.
All I want is an unbiased representation. There is no need to do it the way it's being done. It's being done with the radical feminist belief that all men are rapists or at least that no women are rapists. To me, that's just fucking stupid and anyone who agrees with it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm sorry, but if you are a man and are being bullied by a woman who is smaller than you, something is terribly wrong with you. Be a man. Stop blaming the woman for your own inadequacies. Sure if she is taking advantage of you she is very wrong. But you are allowing it. OMG!
That's really not a very constructive or insightful comment. It pretty much negates and ridicules men that are victims of abuse. And I find it offensive.
I'm sorry, but if you are a man and are being bullied by a woman who is smaller than you, something is terribly wrong with you. Be a man. Stop blaming the woman for your own inadequacies. Sure if she is taking advantage of you she is very wrong. But you are allowing it. OMG!
Dude, your a fucking idiot and an asshole. Why don't you just shut the hell up?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I guess I don't really emulate your idol Bill O'Reilly very well.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
"...it saddens me that we even have to have a women's movement and a men's movement but really there was no choice. I couldn't stop the feminist movement from hi-jacking my work in London at my refuge in Chiswick. They wanted funding and my work, twenty-five years ago - as the first refuge in the world seemed heaven sent for them. No matter that I told them that out of the first hundred women that came into Chiswick sixty-two were as violent as the men they left. I couldn't get any coverage for the truth. 'All men are bastards and rapists' is the only truth that the women's movement were prepared to hear....Now, with the help of this evil movement father's role in family life seems to be irrelevant....."
- Erin Pizzey
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
And a whole mess of other people including Jeanie's favorite Erin Prizzy. Then there is the more recent research that studied the effects of stereotyping.
She's not necessarily my favorite. I haven't really spent a lot of time on the subject. But I identify with her more readily I think because I'm familiar with her books.
That's really not a very constructive or insightful comment. It pretty much negates and ridicules men that are victims of abuse. And I find it offensive.
Thank you.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
You know. You come across as an expert at everything. I really just don't believe you. But thanks for acknowledging that I might have a point. Thankfully, there are plenty of others who do see a problem. Nobody here really, but then your all drunks and mostly Americans with archaic ideologies. Maybe the fact that you're not means something.
My view isn't just based on stats of course. Margaret Mead did a lot of meaningful research on gender differences. I'm sure you know who she is. Susanne Steinmetz did a lot of research on this in the United States. And a whole mess of other people including Jeanie's favorite Erin Prizzy. Then there is the more recent research that studied the effects of stereotyping.
All fine! The "expert" in me is awakened mostly when statistics are involved, and particularly social statistics as that is, after all, my field. I have little issue with what you say here.
All I want is an unbiased representation. There is no need to do it the way it's being done. It's being done with the radical feminist belief that all men are rapists or at least that no women are rapists. To me, that's just fucking stupid and anyone who agrees with it.
But right here you walk into the stereotyping of feminism trap. The radical feminist you talk of are such a fringe faction in the whole picture. Feminazis exist, and they are not at all representational for anything. Some of those are off their rockers, agreed. That does not go for a an UN agency specifically in this case, nor statistics agencies generally. There may be bias inherent in the data, but that is impossible to avoid for any field. Data must be read for what it is. Interpretation of the data is more loose. (although outright skewing or cherry-picking must be avoided)
As for the general issue, yes stereotyping should be avoided, and we should see things for what they are. However, if data show that there are indeed empirical differences between the sexes, well, then there is a difference between the sexes. As to why, that's something else entirely.
I think we are essentially on the same page, but we rub eachother the wrong way with the delivery.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
It just pisses me off when people negate another's situation like that.
Saying that a man should grow a pair and stand up to a woman and that he's a complete wuss if he doesn't is about as helpful as saying that a woman deserved to get raped because of what she was wearing.
It just pisses me off when people negate another's situation like that.
Saying that a man should grow a pair and stand up to a woman and that he's a complete wuss if he doesn't is about as helpful as saying that a woman deserved to get raped because of what she was wearing.
exactly. it provides nothing helpful on how that person can deal with their situation.
exactly. it provides nothing helpful on how deal with that person's situation
Well actually I think it's worse than it not providing anything helpful it actually is detrimental. It compounds the abuse for the victim. Not only are they being abused but it seems that other people think they are deserving of it in some way.
All fine! The "expert" in me is awakened mostly when statistics are involved, and particularly social statistics as that is, after all, my field. I have little issue with what you say here.
But right here you walk into the stereotyping of feminism trap. The radical feminist you talk of are such a fringe faction in the whole picture. Feminazis exist, and they are not at all representational for anything. Some of those are off their rockers, agreed. That does not go for a an UN agency specifically in this case, nor statistics agencies generally. There may be bias inherent in the data, but that is impossible to avoid for any field. Data must be read for what it is. Interpretation of the data is more loose. (although outright skewing or cherry-picking must be avoided)
As for the general issue, yes stereotyping should be avoided, and we should see things for what they are. However, if data show that there are indeed empirical differences between the sexes, well, then there is a difference between the sexes. As to why, that's something else entirely.
I think we are essentially on the same page, but we rub eachother the wrong way with the delivery.
Peace
Dan
Sure, I think radical feminism is on a decline. But the remnants of it's war are still in law and soceity. Even in Canada where the stats are more even, the bias is still apparent in everything. Take this for example:
Public legal education and information organizations (PLEI groups), family violence prevention agencies and victim services groups in most provinces and territories have developed specific products on family violence. These include, for example, abuse handbooks for women, children and the elderly, information about victim services, and numerous publications about criminal and family law matters for women leaving violent relationships.
However, the primary focus of the inventory is on the strategies developed to ensure the various forms of relevant materials are accessible to rural women, seniors and others experiencing family violence.
It goes on and on. "Women, children, elderly and others." Hmm, could that mean MEN? why are they called "others"? Perhaps they mean hemaphrodites and androdgynous people and not men. WTF is "others"?
Everything in our society is geared towards this stereotypical view. Like Bill Maher says all husbands/fathers depicted on TV these days are useless morons and the women are smart and keep everything together. Almost the exact opposite of the "oppressive" soceity women used to complain about. Feminism, and not just radical feminism, is turning our soceity on it's head and making it female dominant instead of equal. That's my only complaint, I'm gonna stand in the way. I don't want men to be superior or go back to a male dominant society, I just don't want women to get overzealous about what they are doing and fuck shit up just as bad.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I felt very sort of unloved and you know, insignificant, and um I felt that, you
know the biggest contribution I was making in the family was just bringing
home a wage each fortnight.
And
Tim saw himself as a victim of his wife’s attacks:
Tim: My wife doesn’t take long to lash out and hit me. She lashes out
very quickly and she’s hit me a number of times and I’ve struck
her back a couple of times.
Interviewer: When she hits you, do you feel frightened of her?
Tim: No.
Interviewer: When you hit her, is she frightened of you?
Tim: Yeah, probably. She says, ‘you’re bigger than me and when
you hit back it hurts a lot more than when I hit you’. (James et al.
2002, p. 11)
Seems like a common argument for bias. "I should be able to hit you because I'm weaker and you can't hit me or it's abuse." fuck off. That doesn't work. I can just go around punching boxers and wrestlers and not expect one to kick my ass. Ironically, the paper this is from is an Australian paper that criticizes the Canadian statistics because "actions of the female partner were likely to have been retaliatory
or in self defence." It sure doesn't sound like it to me. Sounds like Tim was acting out of self-defence, he just happens to be "bigger". But perhaps his wife shouldn't think that she can physically abuse Tim to begin with and none of that would happen. Bottom line is no violence is every ok, in retaliation or not. Get the hell out of there if you feel like hitting someone. There was a few times I told my GF "Right now, I feel like kicking you." and then I would leave the apartment.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Sure, I think radical feminism is on a decline. But the remnants of it's war are still in law and soceity. Even in Canada where the stats are more even, the bias is still apparent in everything. Take this for example:
It goes on and on. "Women, children, elderly and others." Hmm, could that mean MEN? why are they called "others"? Perhaps they mean hemaphrodites and androdgynous people and not men. WTF is "others"?
Perhaps they should reformulate some of those. They are geared to traditional views.
Everything in our society is geared towards this stereotypical view. Like Bill Maher says all husbands/fathers depicted on TV these days are useless morons and the women are smart and keep everything together. Almost the exact opposite of the "oppressive" soceity women used to complain about. Feminism, and not just radical feminism, is turning our soceity on it's head and making it female dominant instead of equal. That's my only complaint, I'm gonna stand in the way. I don't want men to be superior or go back to a male dominant society, I just don't want women to get overzealous about what they are doing and fuck shit up just as bad.
I for one think that "feminization" is largely overrated as a phenomenon. Even if there are some feminists that just want to "switch sides". And even if sit coms depict men as doofuses.
I want there to be equality, but we are not there yet. The moment we are, I'll be all for pulling the brakes. But a lot of those debates are premature at this point, as most data still shows differences between the sexes and most in the disfavour of women, even in places like Canada and Norway. That "male/masculinity under attack" side, which you seem to be aligning yourself with here, is premature at best, and mere sour grapes at worst.
Action, reaction, synthesis to put it Hegelian. We are still in the reaction, and will hopefully soon move into synthesis.
Anyway, we are talking about perceptions, opinions and ideology now, which is much more fitting to what you are trying to convey.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Seems like a common argument for bias. "I should be able to hit you because I'm weaker and you can't hit me or it's abuse." fuck off. That doesn't work. I can just go around punching boxers and wrestlers and not expect one to kick my ass. Ironically, the paper this is from is an Australian paper that criticizes the Canadian statistics because "actions of the female partner were likely to have been retaliatory
or in self defence." It sure doesn't sound like it to me. Sounds like Tim was acting out of self-defence, he just happens to be "bigger". But perhaps his wife shouldn't think that she can physically abuse Tim to begin with and none of that would happen. Bottom line is no violence is every ok, in retaliation or not. Get the hell out of there if you feel like hitting someone. There was a few times I told my GF "Right now, I feel like kicking you." and then I would leave the apartment.
this is the invisible affirmative action where the woman is always right or the "victim". my ex brother in law had a wife who; when she was drinking; would put him in the hospital. he'd be bloody and she wouldn't have a scratch on her; yet he went to jail every time. this was in wisconsin.
any wisconsinites out there that can back this?
It just pisses me off when people negate another's situation like that.
Saying that a man should grow a pair and stand up to a woman and that he's a complete wuss if he doesn't is about as helpful as saying that a woman deserved to get raped because of what she was wearing.
when i was a little boy my dad told me that if i ever hit a girl; he'd beat the living hell out of me. i've never hit a girl in my entire life.
Perhaps they should reformulate some of those. They are geared to traditional views.
I for one think that "feminization" is largely overrated as a phenomenon. Even if there are some feminists that just want to "switch sides". And even if sit coms depict men as doofuses.
I want there to be equality, but we are not there yet. The moment we are, I'll be all for pulling the brakes. But a lot of those debates are premature at this point, as most data still shows differences between the sexes and most in the disfavour of women, even in places like Canada and Norway. That "male/masculinity under attack" side, which you seem to be aligning yourself with here, is premature at best, and mere sour grapes at worst.
Action, reaction, synthesis to put it Hegelian. We are still in the reaction, and will hopefully soon move into synthesis.
Anyway, we are talking about perceptions, opinions and ideology now, which is much more fitting to what you are trying to convey.
Peace
Dan
I don't think it's premature, I think it's late. It's not that I'm trying to protect a traditional view of masculinity either. Since I'm not that type of man. But I will never have children because of the system. Because first of all I need to spend 3+ years with a woman to confirm that she'll never leave me with my kids, and even then I could be wrong. It'll never happen and I'll always live with the fear that I could be halled away on rape or DV charges and lose everything I have because one woman fingered me as her abuser. Even in the event that it was a mutual divorce, I would still lose primary custody of my children and there is no conclusive evidence in psychology to support the assertion that women are better parents. This folkpsychology infects popular culture like a plague and seeps into our justice system.
Experientially. I've known dozens of men who have had their lives ripped apart by a flippant woman who is under the impression that she is somehow being oppressed by a patriarchal society. My own mother went through a similar period when her psychologist was divorced from her husband and went on a radical feminist tangent. She spread that sickness to my mother who was psychologically unstable at the time. These istitutions that have been erected to support "Violence Against Women" emit the same plague that memory regression therapy does. Their strong convictions alone can convince unstable people that they are the victims of some heinous imbalance, while in reality there is nothing of the sort. The sickness encompasses all aspects of modern society, from media to law to health care services to the privacy of the home.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
I was wondering after thinking about the post you put up last night about the realationship you spoke of concerning cyber-relations. Were you married? And what exactly were the boundaries of your relationship? Do you have children? One key factor I have found as "an abuser" is that I have set up expectations for others when possibly I couldn't even live up to the same stipulations myself. (when I ask if you are married, I mean legally, not a simple cohabitation commitment). Relationships should be mutual and the greatest gift that a relationship should have is to make that mutuality high priority. When we start taking people for granted, we tend to become aloof to their concerns and needs. I just finished this meditation tape that states something like this: Forgive them for they could not fill the gap between the love that was received and love that was needed.
I have found myself caught up in friendships with members of opposite sexes and very close ones at that, but I guess I maintain with all people who come in contact with me that I am a free soul and I cannot put limitation on myself or friendships..Nobody wants to be another person's piece of property...(atleast that's what I have heard--actions speak it differently)..If we look at ourselves as we would a blade of grass...We would let the wind blow around us and still find ourselves adapting.
I have seen a lot of aggression in my day. I think that tolerating abuse is not healthy from either side of a coin..but I also think that your example I read earlier about being soft when your wife was aggressive is highly commendable. The softer we are with eachother, the more we consciously choose to consider the path of others, the less we will observe this degeneration of the Self and those around...
If people could get away from gender and look at behavior in generic terms...I think that all humans will benefit...
If I am asking questions that are too personal, please forgive me...I think that DV is horrible, especially for children who live in this type of energy field., not to mention the wrinkles it puts on one's face...oh i could write this book...
conversation here is exceptional. i always learn from so many here. thank you.
Abuse is like anything else...it's relative concept...what maybe love and affection for one, maybe loathesome for another.
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
She couldn't catch me.
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We weren't married. I'm against marriage and not because it's a cover for rape.
My mom punched me a few times. Tried to cram antihistamines down my throat once. And a couple of other incidences, but all of that pales in comparison to psychological abuse.
Ahnimus, this is not the first time i read about you experiencing some form of violence. I know you're noone to me, but i feel disgusted with people who harmed you.
Thanks for answering to those questions. You said three quarters of this post is about violence against women.
maybe it's due to women remembering bad things that happened to them and not letting go. i can't speak for every woman, but if something offends me i remember it for a long time and hold a grudge for a long time unless that person gives proper apology.
and maybe it's due to the fact that men, feel ashamed of what happened to them, and as you said it yourself maybe they don't even know it's happening to them.
maybe you should've refused women to post in here
Reading through the posts here, I get what you are on about. And I can sympathize.
However, this excerpt here and in the other thread reveals that your knowledge of statistics and the proper use of them is at times limited. Or rather, that you are emotinally involved with the subject, leading you to do as you accuse me among others for, namely having an ulterior motive.
Which leads me to suggest that you instead of trying to use statistics, you should just argue morally and experientially. You dont want to generalize, then dont use statistics at all, since that is all they do. If you want to talk about how it should be, then dont use statistics. If you want to share your own experience, dont use statistics. When you want to generalize and simplify in order to draw quick conclusions, use statistics and use them correctly.
But yes, stats arent always presented like they should, which is why source is important. But I must again comment that a correlation coefficient of .33 IS a big deal between 2 variables on such complicated and complex subjects as the one at hand. The correlation is undeniable. Causation, however, is debatable.
From what I have seen so far, the measures supports that men hurt women and women hurt men. But (slightly, in Canada) more men hurt women, and generally hurt them "harder" physically.
Being involved in the subject does not make for objective asessments. And I am sorry you have experienced violent relationships. Noone is belittling that men are hurt by women. The data just shows the general tendency goes the other way or at best that there is just a small difference in one of the more equal countries in the world.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I understand your comment though from my own point of reference...I think that people should be completely freeflowing and love or relationships traveled like a freeway. When I was a bit less experienced in life, I thought that my partner should be everything thing to me...like if we could go off on a deserted island, that we could fullfill each and every void...The truth is though, that no human can be everything to another...We need many relationships to fill our vessel so to speak..Anyway thanks for replying...
Perhaps this thread is gonna give fruit for people and relationships...Keep up you great and generous self...
Good day, Jammers...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
i see wisdom in your words! if i ever start seeing everything in my boyfriend i want someone to come and kick my arse. cause you are very right in saying we need different people to fullfill us. relationship will become stale if there are only two people living together and only sociolising with each other, we need diverse views form different people
a friend of mine who is not married but has been in the past, put it like this: I don't have a boyfriend/ I have many companions....yes...we may share our master plan with someone, but to confine relationships between ourselves and others would be the same as saying we can only love God in one way...
and for myself, learning to accept this fundamental principle has taken me out of the abusive league..it is a beginning...
not true.....;)
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
You know. You come across as an expert at everything. I really just don't believe you. But thanks for acknowledging that I might have a point. Thankfully, there are plenty of others who do see a problem. Nobody here really, but then your all drunks and mostly Americans with archaic ideologies. Maybe the fact that you're not means something.
My view isn't just based on stats of course. Margaret Mead did a lot of meaningful research on gender differences. I'm sure you know who she is. Susanne Steinmetz did a lot of research on this in the United States. And a whole mess of other people including Jeanie's favorite Erin Prizzy. Then there is the more recent research that studied the effects of stereotyping.
All I want is an unbiased representation. There is no need to do it the way it's being done. It's being done with the radical feminist belief that all men are rapists or at least that no women are rapists. To me, that's just fucking stupid and anyone who agrees with it.
That's really not a very constructive or insightful comment. It pretty much negates and ridicules men that are victims of abuse. And I find it offensive.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Dude, your a fucking idiot and an asshole. Why don't you just shut the hell up?
- Erin Pizzey
She's not necessarily my favorite.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
All fine! The "expert" in me is awakened mostly when statistics are involved, and particularly social statistics as that is, after all, my field. I have little issue with what you say here.
But right here you walk into the stereotyping of feminism trap. The radical feminist you talk of are such a fringe faction in the whole picture. Feminazis exist, and they are not at all representational for anything. Some of those are off their rockers, agreed. That does not go for a an UN agency specifically in this case, nor statistics agencies generally. There may be bias inherent in the data, but that is impossible to avoid for any field. Data must be read for what it is. Interpretation of the data is more loose. (although outright skewing or cherry-picking must be avoided)
As for the general issue, yes stereotyping should be avoided, and we should see things for what they are. However, if data show that there are indeed empirical differences between the sexes, well, then there is a difference between the sexes. As to why, that's something else entirely.
I think we are essentially on the same page, but we rub eachother the wrong way with the delivery.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
You're welcome.
It just pisses me off when people negate another's situation like that.
Saying that a man should grow a pair and stand up to a woman and that he's a complete wuss if he doesn't is about as helpful as saying that a woman deserved to get raped because of what she was wearing.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
exactly. it provides nothing helpful on how that person can deal with their situation.
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Well actually I think it's worse than it not providing anything helpful it actually is detrimental. It compounds the abuse for the victim. Not only are they being abused but it seems that other people think they are deserving of it in some way.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Sure, I think radical feminism is on a decline. But the remnants of it's war are still in law and soceity. Even in Canada where the stats are more even, the bias is still apparent in everything. Take this for example:
It goes on and on. "Women, children, elderly and others." Hmm, could that mean MEN? why are they called "others"? Perhaps they mean hemaphrodites and androdgynous people and not men. WTF is "others"?
Everything in our society is geared towards this stereotypical view. Like Bill Maher says all husbands/fathers depicted on TV these days are useless morons and the women are smart and keep everything together. Almost the exact opposite of the "oppressive" soceity women used to complain about. Feminism, and not just radical feminism, is turning our soceity on it's head and making it female dominant instead of equal. That's my only complaint, I'm gonna stand in the way. I don't want men to be superior or go back to a male dominant society, I just don't want women to get overzealous about what they are doing and fuck shit up just as bad.
Seems like a common argument for bias. "I should be able to hit you because I'm weaker and you can't hit me or it's abuse." fuck off. That doesn't work. I can just go around punching boxers and wrestlers and not expect one to kick my ass. Ironically, the paper this is from is an Australian paper that criticizes the Canadian statistics because "actions of the female partner were likely to have been retaliatory
or in self defence." It sure doesn't sound like it to me. Sounds like Tim was acting out of self-defence, he just happens to be "bigger". But perhaps his wife shouldn't think that she can physically abuse Tim to begin with and none of that would happen. Bottom line is no violence is every ok, in retaliation or not. Get the hell out of there if you feel like hitting someone. There was a few times I told my GF "Right now, I feel like kicking you." and then I would leave the apartment.
I for one think that "feminization" is largely overrated as a phenomenon. Even if there are some feminists that just want to "switch sides". And even if sit coms depict men as doofuses.
I want there to be equality, but we are not there yet. The moment we are, I'll be all for pulling the brakes. But a lot of those debates are premature at this point, as most data still shows differences between the sexes and most in the disfavour of women, even in places like Canada and Norway. That "male/masculinity under attack" side, which you seem to be aligning yourself with here, is premature at best, and mere sour grapes at worst.
Action, reaction, synthesis to put it Hegelian. We are still in the reaction, and will hopefully soon move into synthesis.
Anyway, we are talking about perceptions, opinions and ideology now, which is much more fitting to what you are trying to convey.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
i got a rope and a tree for him.
this is the invisible affirmative action where the woman is always right or the "victim". my ex brother in law had a wife who; when she was drinking; would put him in the hospital. he'd be bloody and she wouldn't have a scratch on her; yet he went to jail every time. this was in wisconsin.
any wisconsinites out there that can back this?
when i was a little boy my dad told me that if i ever hit a girl; he'd beat the living hell out of me. i've never hit a girl in my entire life.
no matter how much they deserved it.
I don't think it's premature, I think it's late. It's not that I'm trying to protect a traditional view of masculinity either. Since I'm not that type of man. But I will never have children because of the system. Because first of all I need to spend 3+ years with a woman to confirm that she'll never leave me with my kids, and even then I could be wrong. It'll never happen and I'll always live with the fear that I could be halled away on rape or DV charges and lose everything I have because one woman fingered me as her abuser. Even in the event that it was a mutual divorce, I would still lose primary custody of my children and there is no conclusive evidence in psychology to support the assertion that women are better parents. This folkpsychology infects popular culture like a plague and seeps into our justice system.
Experientially. I've known dozens of men who have had their lives ripped apart by a flippant woman who is under the impression that she is somehow being oppressed by a patriarchal society. My own mother went through a similar period when her psychologist was divorced from her husband and went on a radical feminist tangent. She spread that sickness to my mother who was psychologically unstable at the time. These istitutions that have been erected to support "Violence Against Women" emit the same plague that memory regression therapy does. Their strong convictions alone can convince unstable people that they are the victims of some heinous imbalance, while in reality there is nothing of the sort. The sickness encompasses all aspects of modern society, from media to law to health care services to the privacy of the home.