Saay NO to violence against men!

Jeanie

melodious wrote:

humbled, as for intervention, let's hope it's from the Divine side before we enter into the LAW...

Ah, good ol DV...this is a class I have been both a perpetrator as well as my own victim..

We want to look at outside influences so we dont have to step up to the bar. It's easier to blame someone else. But if we stop and think about being completely alone and we build up frustrations, we end up taking it out by throwing a plate or kicking a wall, or in my case playing chicken...(self mutilization) The problem with any of these issues is once people decide someoen else is to be the keeper, then we let go of our free will...I don't have the answers for others but I do believe that the manifestations from DV are like a virus of a different sort.

Gee, I'm really stoked you said that melodious, because I always felt like I'd been infected by the rage virus for a long time after my ex and I finally went seperate ways. I used to wonder that I hadn't somehow managed to breathe in his anger because I found myself manifesting it myself. It was such a difficult thing to get rid of.

Jeanie

melodious wrote:

This takes a lot of diligence, and commitment to the self before anyone can change or "unlearn" this behavior. Most people are busy prioritizing other activities.

sorry, i couldn't resist...

Yes! I agree. I was kinda thinking that perhaps people could relearn or unlearn the same as say an alcoholic or a smoker?
I guess because I don't view abusers as monsters just seriously fucked up people right now with a seriously bad habit. But it's not like they're able to be "bad" 24/7 right? I mean nobody can be one way 24/7. We're all light and shade, good and bad.
I just see that we spend a lot of time blaming, and punishing for violence and it doesn't really seem to be working. So I wonder if we could commit people to other kinds of programs? Ones where they learn what they need to fulfill themselves and live happy lives that don't require them to erupt in violence when they're angry?

melodious

or even a crazy soul like me!!!

but how do we help others. i mean once we start to see ourselves in a better light...who's to choose who is gonna provide method and means to healing, especially when there is a level of resistence?

I can honestly say that my path has been full of rage, anger, confusion..(narcissistic) until a few weeks ago when I realized that the only being that could carry my flack is our Creator, God or some other receptacle. If I throw my grief out in the universe..(let go) then I have come to feel that I am seeding toxins for another to recieve (disbursement). When I broke it down in my head in these terms, I decided that the only way I could disburse the "raw" is by giving it to my God...and since that day, I have been able to really allow myself to become centered. We do have choices we can make...

Call me weak, but if I really wanna be responsible and individual human, then I need a crutch. But atleast this crutch isn't more abuse manifested in yet another cycle of distress or as they say, inner drama...

I have watched couples that I care about interact. Sometimes one of the partners will demean the others interest in order to reign control. What happens once one of the partners begins to see and that "said" partner begins to outgrow or become intolerate of such condescention? And let's even take this to a bit more platonic of relationship....when it is a friend...

Learning to respect others and to become more gentle in spirit is key...

prism

Ahnimus wrote:

Statistics About Domestic Abuse And Violence Against Men

Very little in known about the actual number of men who are in a domestic relationship in which they are abused or treated violently by women. In 100 domestic violence situations approximately 40 cases involve violence by women against men. An estimated 400,000 women per year are abused or treated violently in the United States by their spouse or intimate partner. This means that roughly 300,000 to 400,000 men are treated violently by their wife or girl friend.

For more information see http://www.dvmen.org

Why Do We Know So Little About Domestic Abuse And Violence Against Men?

There are many reasons why we don't know more about domestic abuse and violence against men. First of all, the incidence of domestic violence reported men appears to be so low that it is hard to get reliable estimates. In addition, it has taken years of advocacy and support to encourage women to report domestic violence. Virtually nothing has been done to encourage men to report abuse. The idea that men could be victims of domestic abuse and violence is so unthinkable that many men will not even attempt to report the situation.

The dynamic of domestic abuse and violence is also different between men and women. The reasons, purposes and motivations are often very different between sexes. Although the counseling and psychological community have responded to domestic abuse and violence against women, there has been very little investment in resources to address and understand the issues of domestic abuse and violence against men. In most cases, the actual physical damage inflicted by men is so much greater than the actual physical harm inflected by women. The impact of domestic violence is less apparent and less likely to come to the attention of others when men are abused. For example, it is assumed than a man with a bruise or black eye was in a fight with another man or was injured on the job or playing contact sports. Even when men do report domestic abuse and violence, most people are so astonished men usually end up feeling like nobody believes them.

The Problem With Assumptions About Domestic Abuse And Violence

It is a widely held assumption that women are always the victims and men are always the perpetrators. Between 50 and 60% of all domestic abuse and violence is against women. There are many reasons why people assume men are never victims and why women often ignore the possibility. For one thing, domestic abuse and violence has been minimized, justified and ignored for a very long time. Women are now more organized, supportive and outspoken about the epidemic of domestic abuse and violence against women. Very little attention has been paid to the issue of domestic abuse and violence against men - especially because violence against women has been so obvious and was ignored for so long.

cont...
http://www.oregoncounseling.org/Handouts/DomesticViolenceMen.htm

again i'm not saying that there aren't women that abuse men. once again as i stated in the other thread, how many of those cases of DV against men by women are cases where the woman was fighting back her attacker and both get arrested for domestic violence? once again show me the CONVICTION rates for men for DV as well as for women for DV.

this crap that juries will only listen to women is horseshit; most judges happen to be men. men happen to sit on juries too.

if woman were equally as violent as men wouldn't 40 to 50% of ALL violent crimes be commited by women? where are all of these women that rape, murder, commit child molestion or sexual abuse against another, commit burglaries, armed robberies, commit home invasions, steal cars(dunno if that counts as violent) commit drive-bys, rob banks etc?

I guess when women pull off all off these other violent crimes it almost never gets reported either, huh?

Ahnimus

Ok, well. Let me get started here.


I just got home and I got a big coffee here. So I'm good to go.

When we are talking about learned behavior, so-called, we are talking about behavior that has a history of reinforcement. At least, so long as we accept some other concepts as true. Ultimately, we need congruence in our fundamentals. I hold that a fact is true if it is scientifically demonstrable. Statistics can fool statisticians and a common argument is "correlation does not mean causation". These presupposed truths are going to be a problem for any debate. The correlation coefficient of the statistics available at statscan is .33, 1 shows a positive relationship, -1 shows a negative relationship. The coefficient for most stats available to us is non-existent. Meaining the correlation coefficient for a study cited in a news article is not readily available to us. It could be .01 or some other absurd value. But to get to the nitty gritty of social issues we need statistics. Certainly we can't just base everything on our own personal experiences. We can't define a truth for society without a consensus of experience. So, if popular culture emphasizes one aspect of an issue like domestic violence, but not another, that does not mean that either is true or not true prima facie. Understanding of social issues must go beyond received wisdom, popular culture or personal experience.

The best measures we have of domestic violence support the theory that men are victims of female violence. We know that many incidences are reported, we can guess that many might not be. Just like we don't know how many women don't report it. I am a non-violent person, I detest violence, yet, I've found violent relationships.

In my experience... the girl I loved was living with me and casually chatting with guys online. I became jealous, which is a bad thing, and logged her chats. Some of the conversation bothered me. Other things started happening too. She began accusing me of all kinds of insane things. She had some relationships that were particularly bad, or at least, she thought they were. She may have been reflecting those bad relationships on me, thinking I was like all the rest. Or maybe I was like all the rest and nothing she said was true. I don't know. But having a woman you love gradually degrade you and dominate you to the point of physical threats is terrible. It happens because I allowed it, because I was weak, young love, I was naive. She was experienced and didn't want to be the underdog anymore.

The other thing too is that some girls have the fear ingrained into them at birth. If a girl's mother goes through a divorce, their might be a period of time where she says a lot of derogatory things about men. It happened in my family. Everyone is justified in their own minds. No one ever thinks they are the problem, because they never are. I'll just say shortly, I don't think free-will exists. If you look at the grand scheme it's not so confusing. The hard part is getting all the information. I think, a lot of the problem is categorical. I saw a television ad for the london's abused women's center or something just a few minutes ago. It was typical, a guy beating up his wife for talking to a friend on the phone. I thought, if lesbians are more likely (according to our best evidence) to abuse each other, then why did they have a man in the ad? I think, because it's a stereotypical scenario. It's not that the opposite doesn't happen. It's just that it's not the stereotype. Children are included in the stereotype. Women and Children abuse centers. Men are segregated. Yea, we have our abuse clinics, not many, and it's not like the abuse of women and children. It's categorically different because it doesn't fit the stereotype, the common image of domestic violence that is implicitly embedded into most minds. Men, who are victims of abuse, may not even understand that they are victims. They might reject the idea because it doesn't compliment their idea of what a "man" is. This is all the result of a fucked up society.

Jeanie

Sure it's just coffee??

Regardless of statistics v. personal experience this seems to keep happening. So to my way of thinking DESPITE all the academics viewing it and theorizing, DESPITE any gathered statistics, DESPITE all the contributions to the issue from Men, Women, Children, Doctors, Shelter Workers, Police, The Judiciary.
DESPITE all that, this keeps happening. So one would have to ask why that is? I don't believe that there are particular people that are abusers and will always be abusers just as I don't believe that if you are a victim you'll always be a victim. So if people have the potential for change as they learn and experience, HOW can we as a society teach and educate people NOW to stop potential abusers and victims in the future? Because this thing seems to me to just keep perpetuating and that's not getting anyone anywhere.
I don't believe it's impossible either. I do think the potential for violence is in all of us, but how is it that some use it as a response and others do not? And why is it that some continue to use it, whereas there are people that go through their whole life never lifting a finger to another human being or animal? To my way of thinking those that do not express their anger and frustration with violence have a lot to show those of us that do and have.
What is it about them that we need to learn?

Ahnimus

I would like to elaborate on the opposite Jeanie. Perhaps we should be listening to those that have and don't. If a person has never lashed out in anger, how do they know how to stop it? I have as a child, but not in an adult relationship. Just one time I threw a remote and punched a computer. At that point I'd crossed the line and I knew it, I let the external situation affect my internal situation. To my experience, violence is a means of expressing your discontent with the environment. In my case, my girlfriend was driving me insane with her crazy accusations and demeaning and heightened tone. I never raised my voice with her and tried to stay calm or leave. This time I let myself get annoyed. This time it was 4 AM and I had to work at 7 AM. Maybe I should have sacrificed my job over the incident. It was only a couple of days after that, that she moved out. Up to that point she was the only person who was violently aggressive. Perhaps in her mind I was the aggressor. The only thing I do now is avoid it all together. Avoid conflict everywhere. It's very easy to run into.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

I would like to elaborate on the opposite Jeanie. Perhaps we should be listening to those that have and don't. If a person has never lashed out in anger, how do they know how to stop it? I have as a child, but not in an adult relationship. Just one time I threw a remote and punched a computer. At that point I'd crossed the line and I knew it, I let the external situation affect my internal situation. To my experience, violence is a means of expressing your discontent with the environment. In my case, my girlfriend was driving me insane with her crazy accusations and demeaning and heightened tone. I never raised my voice with her and tried to stay calm or leave. This time I let myself get annoyed. This time it was 4 AM and I had to work at 7 AM. Maybe I should have sacrificed my job over the incident. It was only a couple of days after that, that she moved out. Up to that point she was the only person who was violently aggressive. Perhaps in her mind I was the aggressor. The only thing I do now is avoid it all together. Avoid conflict everywhere. It's very easy to run into.

That's a valid point. About those that have but now refrain. And I agree there's much to learn from that perspective, but I'm not sure your avoidance is really going to help in the long run is it? I mean I understand what your saying and it's a good plan but I don't know that it's a long term life plan if you catch my drift? It relies too heavily on you ALWAYS being able to get yourself out of situations where there is an aggressor. I'm not sure that's always do-able. And aside from that, you can't always spend your life avoiding particular aggressors. Well you can, but what if they're your family for instance?
Also I'd like to know about these people that have never hit, those that have never lashed out in anger. Because it's not really possibly that they're never angry surely? So is it that they are less likely to get angry or is it that they do get angry but they have learned a coping mechanism that doesn't include lashing out? Do they have some insight into anger inadvertantly that stops it in their case from escalating to rage and lashing out?
The other thing is I don't know that throwing a remote or punching a computer are such bad options. I mean obviously the overwhelming response from you was that you felt out of control and I can understand that but of all the choices you could have made those don't seem to be the worst, so what do you think stopped you from escalating it OR doing something that provided the impetus for her to escalate her response?

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

That's a valid point. About those that have but now refrain. And I agree there's much to learn from that perspective, but I'm not sure your avoidance is really going to help in the long run is it? I mean I understand what your saying and it's a good plan but I don't know that it's a long term life plan if you catch my drift? It relies too heavily on you ALWAYS being able to get yourself out of situations where there is an aggressor. I'm not sure that's always do-able. And aside from that, you can't always spend your life avoiding particular aggressors. Well you can, but what if they're your family for instance?
Also I'd like to know about these people that have never hit, those that have never lashed out in anger. Because it's not really possibly that they're never angry surely? So is it that they are less likely to get angry or is it that they do get angry but they have learned a coping mechanism that doesn't include lashing out? Do they have some insight into anger inadvertantly that stops it in their case from escalating to rage and lashing out?
The other thing is I don't know that throwing a remote or punching a computer are such bad options. I mean obviously the overwhelming response from you was that you felt out of control and I can understand that but of all the choices you could have made those don't seem to be the worst, so what do you think stopped you from escalating it OR doing something that provided the impetus for her to escalate her response?

I'm pretty sure I didn't sleep at all, so I ended up going to work. After I tossed the remote, she severed some cords on my computer and I punched her computer. There was no more violence after that. I don't remember what happened. I probably left, but I can't say for sure. I was escalating though. Normally it was just her and I tried to stay calm. I think it frustrated her more that I was trying to stay calm. I simply wouldn't talk on her level. As soon as she raised her voice I'd say "I'm not going to talk to you that way.". Ironically, I think I could have handled it differently and made it work. But chances are it wouldn't have. I don't blame her. It was a phase in both of our lives that was messed up, but we are both better for doing it. I think she learned a lot and I definitely learned a lot. Police were never involved and I'm glad they weren't. She probably had a lot of pent up aggression from her past and I was the outlet. Maybe it balanced her out. I got to learn first hand what it's like to be on the receiving end of domestic aggression. I had previously been a big aggressor, but I had given it up by the time I met her. Other people in my family destroyed property and attacked each other, but I never thought much of it. It's just a bad day. You can learn something from it too. My dad smashed a bunch of dishes one day to express his point about shared responsibility. Nobody was doing dishes. He verbalized it before that, but I guess it got to him that day. It didn't help his cause though, so he moved out. My brother moved out and I broke up with my girlfriend, so now I live alone... no aggression. That was the story a year ago. I've just had one relationship since then that lasted a few months. We didn't live together though.

OutOfBreath

No!

Now I have covered both men and women, and apart from potential non-sexual people, I have just said no to all violence. Neat!

Peace
Dan

even flow?

Men/Women who stick around (sorry I don't believe the bullshit about being too scared to leave) are just asking for more violence/abuse. My wife would not dare hit I nor I hit her. But being a guy, I know that if she ever hit me with vicious intent she'd be beaten black and blue before she would be calling the cops.

Jeanie

even flow? wrote:

Men/Women who stick around (sorry I don't believe the bullshit about being too scared to leave) are just asking for more violence/abuse. My wife would not dare hit I nor I hit her. But being a guy, I know that if she ever hit me with vicious intent she'd be beaten black and blue before she would be calling the cops.

Thanks for the insight. What if your abuser is living in YOUR house?
You gonna walk out and let them have it?

Anon

even flow? wrote:

Men/Women who stick around (sorry I don't believe the bullshit about being too scared to leave) are just asking for more violence/abuse. My wife would not dare hit I nor I hit her. But being a guy, I know that if she ever hit me with vicious intent she'd be beaten black and blue before she would be calling the cops.

if my boyfriend ever hit me with vicous intent (which i am certain he would never do), i would be out of there as fast as i can. i would not stick around. luckily for me i'd have somewhere to go, and i have no children so i guess it would be easier for me to do that than people who may not have support or anywhere to go. one thing i can tell you is that no matter what was done to me, i would not retaliate and attempt to beat him 'black and blue'. his attack on me will have cost him our future together and i would walk away, i'd be broken hearted because i love him, but i would never go back. i would not resort to violence against someone i loved regardless of what they had done to me. how can you love someone one minute then beat them black and blue the next?

even flow?

Pj_Gurl wrote:

if my boyfriend ever hit me with vicous intent (which i am certain he would never do), i would be out of there as fast as i can. i would not stick around. luckily for me i'd have somewhere to go, and i have no children so i guess it would be easier for me to do that than people who may not have support or anywhere to go. one thing i can tell you is that no matter what was done to me, i would not retaliate and attempt to beat him 'black and blue'. his attack on me will have cost him our future together and i would walk away, i'd be broken hearted because i love him, but i would never go back. i would not resort to violence against someone i loved regardless of what they had done to me. how can you love someone one minute then beat them black and blue the next?

How can you even get violent with somebody you love? It would have to start somewhere.

And if you are in a relationship with kids and the abuse has just started (of which I find very hard to swallow), you can't tell me that you wouldn't have one that is ONE friend or family member that you could turn to to help you out of your bad situation. But of course there could be the person who won't tell anybody about the home life in which case you can only blame yourself for sticking around in that kind of situation.

I have been in a relationship for about 18 years and never once have either of us got to the point where we started swinging at each other. I am just stating that if she ever took a swing with a violent anger and connected that my animal instinct would probably take over and she would not like to see that side of me. Kind of like I don't expect to see that side of her.

even flow?

Jeanie wrote:

Thanks for the insight. What if your abuser is living in YOUR house?
You gonna walk out and let them have it?

Abuser living in YOUR house or the house that is owned by both or you. If they are living in your house then you just simply call the police and get out of the relationship. Yeah, somebody is going to mention revenge and stalking but I would bet that the percentage is pretty small compared to the rest of society in that matter. If you haven't realized your dating a fuckhead from about the sixth month then love really is blind.

Jeanie

even flow? wrote:

Abuser living in YOUR house or the house that is owned by both or you. If they are living in your house then you just simply call the police and get out of the relationship. Yeah, somebody is going to mention revenge and stalking but I would bet that the percentage is pretty small compared to the rest of society in that matter. If you haven't realized your dating a fuckhead from about the sixth month then love really is blind.

How bout if you're not in the situation or you have no experience of the situation then you really have NO IDEA what you would do? And really you don't. You might think you know what you'd do and it's easy to say what everybody else should do but until it happens to you you really have no idea.


There's no such thing as "simply" when you're talking about domestic violence. NOTHING about it is simple.

My house, which he'd threatened to torch while I slept in it btw if I called the police or tried to evict him. But go on, you tell me all about what I should have done.

even flow?

Jeanie wrote:

How bout if you're not in the situation or you have no experience of the situation then you really have NO IDEA what you would do? And really you don't. You might think you know what you'd do and it's easy to say what everybody else should do but until it happens to you you really have no idea.


There's no such thing as "simply" when you're talking about domestic violence. NOTHING about it is simple.

My house, which he'd threatened to torch while I slept in it btw if I called the police or tried to evict him. But go on, you tell me all about what I should have done.

I'm not going to tell you what you should do. You found love in the man. He was a great guy. I'll just stop now.

Edit: anyway this is the thread about abuse to men and I stated what I would do. That is why I don't go into the women one.

Jeanie

even flow? wrote:

I'm not going to tell you what you should do. You found love in the man. He was a great guy. I'll just stop now.

Yeah, good idea.

genie

prism wrote:

again i'm not saying that there aren't women that abuse men. once again as i stated in the other thread, how many of those cases of DV against men by women are cases where the woman was fighting back her attacker and both get arrested for domestic violence? once again show me the CONVICTION rates for men for DV as well as for women for DV.

this crap that juries will only listen to women is horseshit; most judges happen to be men. men happen to sit on juries too.

if woman were equally as violent as men wouldn't 40 to 50% of ALL violent crimes be commited by women? where are all of these women that rape, murder, commit child molestion or sexual abuse against another, commit burglaries, armed robberies, commit home invasions, steal cars(dunno if that counts as violent) commit drive-bys, rob banks etc?

I guess when women pull off all off these other violent crimes it almost never gets reported either, huh?

you must be hardened femenist

hmm....i do wonder why Ahnimus did not answer your questions. is it because they were irrelevant? or not good enough for him

Jeanie

even flow? wrote:

I'm not going to tell you what you should do. You found love in the man. He was a great guy. I'll just stop now.

Edit: anyway this is the thread about abuse to men and I stated what I would do. That is why I don't go into the women one.

you edited!

Ok fair enough but there's no reason why you couldn't go into the women one. If you have a view on it you should share it if you want to. Just don't be surprised if people don't agree with you is all.