when i was a little boy my dad told me that if i ever hit a girl; he'd beat the living hell out of me. i've never hit a girl in my entire life.
no matter how much they deserved it.
Well that's great OLS. And I know that my brother and other male relatives were raised the same. However I think it's important that we're ALL of us taught not to hit. Girls and boys. There are some women out there that I've seen attack that probably could do with a snap to the head, but I doubt it would change their behaviour. The thing is, nobody deserves to be hit and everyone needs to learn other ways of coping with their anger and frustration. I can understand people lashing out in anger sometimes and I can understand them retaliating with violence if they are subjected to violence but ultimately it solves nothing.
this is the invisible affirmative action where the woman is always right or the "victim". my ex brother in law had a wife who; when she was drinking; would put him in the hospital. he'd be bloody and she wouldn't have a scratch on her; yet he went to jail every time. this was in wisconsin.
any wisconsinites out there that can back this?
Yea, physical stature is somewhat irrelevant when you love the person. I would never hit a woman I loved. I would hit a strange woman that was attacking me if I had no opportunity for escape. Regardless, knives and other weapons are hard to defend against. I have no problem standing up to the likes of some tough guy unless he's weilding a 7" blade or a 9MM handgun. It takes virtually no strength at all to pull the trigger on a pistol. And anyone who thinks that all men are bigger than all women haven't been outside in a couple of centuries.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I don't think it's premature, I think it's late. It's not that I'm trying to protect a traditional view of masculinity either. Since I'm not that type of man. But I will never have children because of the system. Because first of all I need to spend 3+ years with a woman to confirm that she'll never leave me with my kids, and even then I could be wrong. It'll never happen and I'll always live with the fear that I could be halled away on rape or DV charges and lose everything I have because one woman fingered me as her abuser. Even in the event that it was a mutual divorce, I would still lose primary custody of my children and there is no conclusive evidence in psychology to support the assertion that women are better parents. This folkpsychology infects popular culture like a plague and seeps into our justice system.
Experientially. I've known dozens of men who have had their lives ripped apart by a flippant woman who is under the impression that she is somehow being oppressed by a patriarchal society. My own mother went through a similar period when her psychologist was divorced from her husband and went on a radical feminist tangent. She spread that sickness to my mother who was psychologically unstable at the time. These istitutions that have been erected to support "Violence Against Women" emit the same plague that memory regression therapy does. Their strong convictions alone can convince unstable people that they are the victims of some heinous imbalance, while in reality there is nothing of the sort. The sickness encompasses all aspects of modern society, from media to law to health care services to the privacy of the home.
Well what can I say, I am sorry for you and yours. You have obviously been through a lot, and the entire first paragraph signals trust issues in general. And it does suck that men are discriminated when it comes to kids. And dozens of men being ripped apart by women? Either you hang with the wrong crowd, or just very many people. But I wont take away from your experience and perception of course. It does colour your overall view of the issue, though.
But the thing is, the only place where women "gain" from those old gender roles, are in those instances you name with the children. So focusing everything on that, I feel isn't right either. That is also wrong of course, but so is the various ways that women have been hindered and discriminated for ages and which still holds today on many other issues. Like being at the receiving end of more violence generally. (while many individual women can certainly be violent)
Now, it doesnt help to go overboard with victimization of women either, and like all people, they can also be fucking nuts, of which there is no quick cure, and no legislation can help.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Well what can I say, I am sorry for you and yours. You have obviously been through a lot, and the entire first paragraph signals trust issues in general. And it does suck that men are discriminated when it comes to kids. And dozens of men being ripped apart by women? Either you hang with the wrong crowd, or just very many people. But I wont take away from your experience and perception of course. It does colour your overall view of the issue, though.
But the thing is, the only place where women "gain" from those old gender roles, are in those instances you name with the children. So focusing everything on that, I feel isn't right either. That is also wrong of course, but so is the various ways that women have been hindered and discriminated for ages and which still holds today on many other issues. Like being at the receiving end of more violence generally. (while many individual women can certainly be violent)
Now, it doesnt help to go overboard with victimization of women either, and like all people, they can also be fucking nuts, of which there is no quick cure, and no legislation can help.
Peace
Dan
In my mind, children are more important than anything else. I'd like to think I'd give my life to save a child. I'm going to adopt one day and it doesn't matter if I have a female partner. I'd almost rather not because then I won't have to worry about it. So, to me that is the most important thing.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yea, physical stature is somewhat irrelevant when you love the person. I would never hit a woman I loved. I would hit a strange woman that was attacking me if I had no opportunity for escape. Regardless, knives and other weapons are hard to defend against. I have no problem standing up to the likes of some tough guy unless he's weilding a 7" blade or a 9MM handgun. It takes virtually no strength at all to pull the trigger on a pistol. And anyone who thinks that all men are bigger than all women haven't been outside in a couple of centuries.
i watched the end of a show on the tele called "women on death row". i wish i had seen more of it but just watching that; gave me a chill. it made me realize that we truely are equal when we can inflict the same pain on eachother. a woman can just as easily pull a trigger. decades ago a woman wouldn't; but times have changed. women have proven that they are just as capable of violent crimes; and maybe that's the equality they wanted.
In my mind, children are more important than anything else. I'd like to think I'd give my life to save a child. I'm going to adopt one day and it doesn't matter if I have a female partner. I'd almost rather not because then I won't have to worry about it. So, to me that is the most important thing.
on this issue; we see eye to eye. the children are our future.
i watched the end of a show on the tele called "women on death row". i wish i had seen more of it but just watching that; gave me a chill. it made me realize that we truely are equal when we can inflict the same pain on eachother. a woman can just as easily pull a trigger. decades ago a woman wouldn't; but times have changed. women have proven that they are just as capable of violent crimes; and maybe that's the equality they wanted.
It's true, even when you look at historical serial killers like Charles Starkweather. Certainly the movie is named after him and all the books are mostly about him. But he had an accomplice, his girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate who assisted in the brutal murder of her own family. There are plenty examples of women commiting violent acts. My mother was a matron at a holding cell, I mentioned this before. She told me a number of times that the women were way more uncontrolled than the men. They yelled and screamed and said things my mother has never heard, they bit and kicked and scratched and appeared completely insane. It was a good environment for comparison, because it was a local police station that had cells for men and women so she saw side-by-side how men and women behave under the circumstances. And, you know, I don't mean to paint women as worse, I think men are more likely to take it in stride, but I just want the popular view to be an equal view.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It's true, even when you look at historical serial killers like Charles Starkweather. Certainly the movie is named after him and all the books are mostly about him. But he had an accomplice, his girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate who assisted in the brutal murder of her own family. There are plenty examples of women commiting violent acts. My mother was a matron at a holding cell, I mentioned this before. She told me a number of times that the women were way more uncontrolled than the men. They yelled and screamed and said things my mother has never heard, they bit and kicked and scratched and appeared completely insane. It was a good environment for comparison, because it was a local police station that had cells for men and women so she saw side-by-side how men and women behave under the circumstances. And, you know, I don't mean to paint women as worse, I think men are more likely to take it in stride, but I just want the popular view to be an equal view.
thank you for that. it helps establish a perspective. i've been abused and cheated by women yet i was taught to keep my mouth shut. for the longest time i thought i was the only one.
Obviously you have never been in a long term commited monogamous relationship. Too bad. You are missing out on something wonderful.
you misunderstood what i was trying to say....and i'm not going to go out of my way to explain it, all i'm going to say is that if i'm in a relationship with someone of course it's going to be monogamous.
as for missing out on something "wonderful" well nothing lasts forever, definitely not if my life......so i don't want anything wonderful that will turn sour later on.
i tell you what, i've already got this something wonderful, and it's when i listen to music especially Pearl Jam i know my love for the music will always be there.
thank you for that. it helps establish a perspective. i've been abused and cheated by women yet i was taught to keep my mouth shut. for the longest time i thought i was the only one.
If you feel like sharing I'd be interested to hear it, but I can certainly understand if your not comfortable.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I actually regretted saying that, it's not really my style, but I didn't know what else to say really.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
but then what else could you have said? Just like you, Jeanie, and others i found his comment to be ridiculous.
I know but I try to refrain from labels like idiot and asshole.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Well that's great OLS. And I know that my brother and other male relatives were raised the same. However I think it's important that we're ALL of us taught not to hit. Girls and boys. There are some women out there that I've seen attack that probably could do with a snap to the head, but I doubt it would change their behaviour. The thing is, nobody deserves to be hit and everyone needs to learn other ways of coping with their anger and frustration. I can understand people lashing out in anger sometimes and I can understand them retaliating with violence if they are subjected to violence but ultimately it solves nothing.
Eloquently spoken. Violence begets violence. I was wondering if "dad" gave reasoning when making this stance.
To further this thought a bit more, our tolerance level can be influence by recieved nurturing. If a parent say to a child, "Don't do it because I say" only instills fear and little reassaurance...Which can cause a child to make many assumptions in his/her reasoning skills, as well as cause the child to fill in the blanks. Most of the time or should I say, chances are that the individual will make innacurate assumptions and this flaws communication and tolerance skills....and to me this is a shame and a waste of precious life.
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Eloquently spoken. Violence begets violence. I was wondering if "dad" gave reasoning when making this stance.
To further this thought a bit more, our tolerance level can be influence by recieved nurturing. If a parent say to a child, "Don't do it because I say" only instills fear and little reassaurance...Which can cause a child to make many assumptions in his/her reasoning skills, as well as cause the child to fill in the blanks. Most of the time or should I say, chances are that the individual will make innacurate assumptions and this flaws communication and tolerance skills....and to me this is a shame and a waste of precious life.
Thank you. Most likely the reasoning would be based on that generation's and previous generations views on men and women and the traditional roles and etiquettes I suspect. I know that my grandad would often say that you don't hit girls. Actually I can recall quite a few of the men in my family saying it. And I can't count how many guys I've heard say they were taught that over the years. It's not really based in reality but more in the "what people expect" of you category. I mean it's a silly notion really in that not only does it put immense pressure on boys never to hit girls EVEN if they are being abused but it also sets up the idea in girls that they are safe and that boys won't hit. That doesn't work very well really. I think a lot of women that do abuse are banking on the idea that guys have been brought up not to hit girls. So they think they've got carte blanche to hit at will "safe" in the knowledge that the guy isn't supposed to hit back. It's bull.
I've never really followed the notion myself. I figure if I get hit then I may or may not hit back but I would NEVER expect a guy NOT to hit me if I hit him first purely because I'm a girl. Personally I'd like to see that whole attitude stamped out entirely. I'd like CHILDREN, both boys and girls taught NEVER to hit unless they absolutely have no choice and their life is in danger. I'd also like to see more programmes available to educate EVERYONE now that hitting isn't the answer and give people the tools to acknowledge and accept their anger and frustration and deal with it in much more beneficial ways. I don't expect that we'll ever not get angry with each other but I would like to see a time when we are all much more aware of how to deal with anger.
Anyway, I completely agree with you regarding nurturing. And what children learn not always being enough. It is inaccurate and not enough information for a child but the thing I find interesting is that I think a lot of this kind of thing goes on purely because parents aren't really given an education on how to be a parent until the stork delivers the package! Sure LOTS of parents or parents to be read and learn as much as they can but the onus is not on anyone to have a basic level of parenting skill. So it's a learn as you go game and that's fine for the most part if you are already experienced and you know yourself well and you have a game plan but many people do not. So this makes children a little living experiment. I'm not surprised that it turns out as badly as it does sometimes.
You will be interested then to know that our county which is considered an economically depressed district, that this very topic you speak of regarding parneting skills is offered to women who recieve Federally funded WIC program (Women, Infants, Children), a subsidized program to help promote nutrition. This program provides nutritional supplements such as Cereals, P-nut Butter, Legumes, Milk and Cheese so that our nation's kids have a chance at proper physical development. Part of this program provides free parenting classes, however, they are not mandatory. Also in our local community college offers a program called C.A.R.E ( i don't know the exact words for this acronym), which is financial aide supplement available to single moms. In order to qualify, a single parent, has to attend weekly meetings as well as enroll in parenting classest that are offered in curriculum. Students get valuable skills and college credit. Parenting is like any other skill, either you are born with it, or it does have to be learned...
What causes an abuser to be abusive? Lots of times humans want to have an issue dealt with.. Sometimes other influences prevent this to occur..such as simple timing...
There are other factors though, concerning domestic violence. When I think of anhimus and this scenario, I don't put external influences in my concept such as alcahol or substance abuse. (only becasue I would like to think the best of someone and be proven differently--i think ahnimus is plain and simply good) I think that it's great if a person can remain calm and try to alleviate hostile energy. I certainly wish I had an inkling how to help calm a situation, but I usually just remove myself. Also letting other people pull our puppet strings by manipulating can weigh in how we are behaving...It's just best to listen to one's heart.
It's very late, now..I hope I made some sense with proper mechanics and punctuation..Thanks for your thoughts, Jeannie....be safe in your travels...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
This is absolute value of awesome, Jeannie. I am so glad I signed onto this thread...I personally think it's a wonderment when we come across our gentle spirit. Who's it gonna really hurt to step back and just give love and understanding? Thank you for all you are, and I hardly even know you..
Nobody right; nobody wrong and vice versa...
This conversation has made a lifetime impact on me, for one. Thank you.
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Tie me up, blindfold, and beat me if you want....just don't cut my wee wee off when I'm sleeping.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Well, I've been through a lot of public service announcements on youtube and they are pretty much all similar. A white guy flips out at extremely nice people for very little reason. Chalk one up for political correctness.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Well that's great OLS. And I know that my brother and other male relatives were raised the same. However I think it's important that we're ALL of us taught not to hit. Girls and boys. There are some women out there that I've seen attack that probably could do with a snap to the head, but I doubt it would change their behaviour. The thing is, nobody deserves to be hit and everyone needs to learn other ways of coping with their anger and frustration. I can understand people lashing out in anger sometimes and I can understand them retaliating with violence if they are subjected to violence but ultimately it solves nothing.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Yea, physical stature is somewhat irrelevant when you love the person. I would never hit a woman I loved. I would hit a strange woman that was attacking me if I had no opportunity for escape. Regardless, knives and other weapons are hard to defend against. I have no problem standing up to the likes of some tough guy unless he's weilding a 7" blade or a 9MM handgun. It takes virtually no strength at all to pull the trigger on a pistol. And anyone who thinks that all men are bigger than all women haven't been outside in a couple of centuries.
But the thing is, the only place where women "gain" from those old gender roles, are in those instances you name with the children. So focusing everything on that, I feel isn't right either. That is also wrong of course, but so is the various ways that women have been hindered and discriminated for ages and which still holds today on many other issues. Like being at the receiving end of more violence generally. (while many individual women can certainly be violent)
Now, it doesnt help to go overboard with victimization of women either, and like all people, they can also be fucking nuts, of which there is no quick cure, and no legislation can help.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
In my mind, children are more important than anything else. I'd like to think I'd give my life to save a child. I'm going to adopt one day and it doesn't matter if I have a female partner. I'd almost rather not because then I won't have to worry about it. So, to me that is the most important thing.
i watched the end of a show on the tele called "women on death row". i wish i had seen more of it but just watching that; gave me a chill. it made me realize that we truely are equal when we can inflict the same pain on eachother. a woman can just as easily pull a trigger. decades ago a woman wouldn't; but times have changed. women have proven that they are just as capable of violent crimes; and maybe that's the equality they wanted.
on this issue; we see eye to eye. the children are our future.
It's true, even when you look at historical serial killers like Charles Starkweather. Certainly the movie is named after him and all the books are mostly about him. But he had an accomplice, his girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate who assisted in the brutal murder of her own family. There are plenty examples of women commiting violent acts. My mother was a matron at a holding cell, I mentioned this before. She told me a number of times that the women were way more uncontrolled than the men. They yelled and screamed and said things my mother has never heard, they bit and kicked and scratched and appeared completely insane. It was a good environment for comparison, because it was a local police station that had cells for men and women so she saw side-by-side how men and women behave under the circumstances. And, you know, I don't mean to paint women as worse, I think men are more likely to take it in stride, but I just want the popular view to be an equal view.
thank you for that. it helps establish a perspective. i've been abused and cheated by women yet i was taught to keep my mouth shut. for the longest time i thought i was the only one.
you misunderstood what i was trying to say....and i'm not going to go out of my way to explain it, all i'm going to say is that if i'm in a relationship with someone of course it's going to be monogamous.
as for missing out on something "wonderful" well nothing lasts forever, definitely not if my life......so i don't want anything wonderful that will turn sour later on.
i tell you what, i've already got this something wonderful, and it's when i listen to music especially Pearl Jam i know my love for the music will always be there.
i agree
If you feel like sharing I'd be interested to hear it, but I can certainly understand if your not comfortable.
I actually regretted saying that, it's not really my style, but I didn't know what else to say really.
but then what else could you have said? Just like you, Jeanie, and others i found his comment to be ridiculous.
I know but I try to refrain from labels like idiot and asshole.
To further this thought a bit more, our tolerance level can be influence by recieved nurturing. If a parent say to a child, "Don't do it because I say" only instills fear and little reassaurance...Which can cause a child to make many assumptions in his/her reasoning skills, as well as cause the child to fill in the blanks. Most of the time or should I say, chances are that the individual will make innacurate assumptions and this flaws communication and tolerance skills....and to me this is a shame and a waste of precious life.
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Thank you.
I've never really followed the notion myself. I figure if I get hit then I may or may not hit back but I would NEVER expect a guy NOT to hit me if I hit him first purely because I'm a girl. Personally I'd like to see that whole attitude stamped out entirely. I'd like CHILDREN, both boys and girls taught NEVER to hit unless they absolutely have no choice and their life is in danger. I'd also like to see more programmes available to educate EVERYONE now that hitting isn't the answer and give people the tools to acknowledge and accept their anger and frustration and deal with it in much more beneficial ways. I don't expect that we'll ever not get angry with each other but I would like to see a time when we are all much more aware of how to deal with anger.
Anyway, I completely agree with you regarding nurturing. And what children learn not always being enough. It is inaccurate and not enough information for a child but the thing I find interesting is that I think a lot of this kind of thing goes on purely because parents aren't really given an education on how to be a parent until the stork delivers the package!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
What causes an abuser to be abusive? Lots of times humans want to have an issue dealt with.. Sometimes other influences prevent this to occur..such as simple timing...
There are other factors though, concerning domestic violence. When I think of anhimus and this scenario, I don't put external influences in my concept such as alcahol or substance abuse. (only becasue I would like to think the best of someone and be proven differently--i think ahnimus is plain and simply good) I think that it's great if a person can remain calm and try to alleviate hostile energy. I certainly wish I had an inkling how to help calm a situation, but I usually just remove myself. Also letting other people pull our puppet strings by manipulating can weigh in how we are behaving...It's just best to listen to one's heart.
It's very late, now..I hope I made some sense with proper mechanics and punctuation..Thanks for your thoughts, Jeannie....be safe in your travels...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug57dOTmpmg
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Nobody right; nobody wrong and vice versa...
This conversation has made a lifetime impact on me, for one. Thank you.
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pcodyFKKdVM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ugTeOz7rsgE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uriWMw-1esw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y0kGEC69S7c
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xIZpBlwq7Qc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=088ME2DYvOY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yzsFEVACJBU