Fire brought down WTC 7

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  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    People have taken advantage of terrible situations throughout history, that is nothing new. Secondly, 9/11 was not the primary reason, if at all, used to sell the public we needed to go into Iraq. The Bush administration did not need 9/11 to sell the public that Saddam was a threat due to his WMDs.

    yes and in history people have manufactured terrible situations to take advantage of after ... also nothing new ...

    are you saying saddam/iraq had WMDs??
  • LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun
    LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun Posts: 6,097
    damnit, Spyguy. the 9/11 truther threads are bad enough, now the nonbelievers have to go and start 9/11 threads! AAGGGGHHH!!!
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    FiveB247x wrote:
    As I stated previously, I do believe there are plenty of unknowns and we do deserve to find out more... but with that said, it's a far leap to take that and spin it into the notion that the government carried it out. It's calling a puddle an ocean.

    Also, and as more of a side note, even if someone did believe the government pulled an inside job, do you honestly have that much confidence in our government to do it successfully and nothing spur from it thereafter (leaks, people speaking out afterwards)? Our government screws anything and everything up, but somehow they pull something like this off to a tee? I find that harder to believe than anything else.

    seriously, look at your reasoning here objectively ... your entire premise is that it's a far leap that the gov't would do such a thing and that even if they did - they would screw it up ...

    these are your perceptions - it is not a foundation to dismiss those that see differently ...

    beyond the question of the unknowns is why there are so many things unknown?? ... why the lack of openess?
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Like any investigation....if you want to get to the bottom of what happened you have to look at the forensics.. something NIST seems to avoid like the plague.

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/residues.html

    When NIST cares to address the above issues.... I'll start to think they are telling the truth instead of running from and purposely avoiding the above information.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    yes and in history people have manufactured terrible situations to take advantage of after ... also nothing new ...

    are you saying saddam/iraq had WMDs??

    Of course Im not saying that, I am saying that was the primary reason given to the public. Bush didnt need 9/11 to trump up support for the war.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I stated that I do agree there are plenty of unknowns and things that aren't 100% logical, and there's more we could/should find out, but I find it to be a stretch to simply state based off what we do know that it was something like an inside job or otherwise. That's my grip with the whole 9-11 truthers issue. Its not about merely finding out info, it's about the conspiracy theory of the government pulling off this attack, which to me is outlandish and unfounded.
    polaris wrote:
    seriously, look at your reasoning here objectively ... your entire premise is that it's a far leap that the gov't would do such a thing and that even if they did - they would screw it up ...

    these are your perceptions - it is not a foundation to dismiss those that see differently ...

    beyond the question of the unknowns is why there are so many things unknown?? ... why the lack of openess?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    Of course Im not saying that, I am saying that was the primary reason given to the public. Bush didnt need 9/11 to trump up support for the war.

    i believe a poll showed that over 50% of americans believed saddam was involved in 9/11 pre-war ... that was not by accident ... carefully programmed misinformation propaganda campaign ...
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I stated that I do agree there are plenty of unknowns and things that aren't 100% logical, and there's more we could/should find out, but I find it to be a stretch to simply state based off what we do know that it was something like an inside job or otherwise. That's my grip with the whole 9-11 truthers issue. Its not about merely finding out info, it's about the conspiracy theory of the government pulling off this attack, which to me is outlandish and unfounded.

    Exactly. It isnt about questioning the official story, that is certainly fine. It is about raising questions and then providing answers to those questions, with little to no evidence to back that answer. The loose change guys have had to change their story so many times they probably arent even sure what they believe from one day to the next. Alex Jones is basically a Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh of the conspiracy world, just telling his audience what they want to hear. I think people discount the fact that there is a monetary market for these types of conspiracies and money to be made if you sell it right.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I stated that I do agree there are plenty of unknowns and things that aren't 100% logical, and there's more we could/should find out, but I find it to be a stretch to simply state based off what we do know that it was something like an inside job or otherwise. That's my grip with the whole 9-11 truthers issue. Its not about merely finding out info, it's about the conspiracy theory of the government pulling off this attack, which to me is outlandish and unfounded.

    again - you are entitled to your beliefs and perceptions ... but as the point of my initial post on this thread is that - they are yours alone ... they don't make you right ... so, when people come in and make antagonizing comments - they aren't coming from a position of anymore certainty than the other person ...

    i find believing 9/11 wasn't an inside job to be outlandish ... it's a difference of opinion ... but i'm not going to call you a nut job for believing otherwise ...
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    polaris wrote:
    i believe a poll showed that over 50% of americans believed saddam was involved in 9/11 pre-war ... that was not by accident ... carefully programmed misinformation propaganda campaign ...

    was that the same poll that showed that 87% of americans dont know where Iraq is :D
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dunkman wrote:
    was that the same poll that showed that 87% of americans dont know where Iraq is :D

    i'm just saying ... :)
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    That's after the fact though. Does anyone believe that 9-11 was done inorder to push forth a war with Iraq? That's really what the other user was alluding too.
    polaris wrote:
    i believe a poll showed that over 50% of americans believed saddam was involved in 9/11 pre-war ... that was not by accident ... carefully programmed misinformation propaganda campaign ...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    i believe a poll showed that over 50% of americans believed saddam was involved in 9/11 pre-war ... that was not by accident ... carefully programmed misinformation propaganda campaign ...

    That is after the fact. We had a war with Iraq in the 90s without killing Americans to do so. Clinton bombed Iraq without killing Americans to do so. Clinton with to war in Kosovo without killing Americans to do so. The idea that Bush needed to pull off 9/11 to go to war with Iraq is simply not supported by any type of historical context.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    FiveB247x wrote:
    That's after the fact though. Does anyone believe that 9-11 was done inorder to push forth a war with Iraq? That's really what the other user was alluding too.

    i believe 9/11 was done to precipitate the invasion of iraq ... without 9/11 - there is no way you'd be in iraq now ... state of fear, patriot act, homeland security, etc ... it's been done many times in history before and it works almost every time ...
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    There's a much longer history (in US) of creating a war or invasion or regime change without carrying out something like 9-11.
    polaris wrote:
    i believe 9/11 was done to precipitate the invasion of iraq ... without 9/11 - there is no way you'd be in iraq now ... state of fear, patriot act, homeland security, etc ... it's been done many times in history before and it works almost every time ...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    i believe 9/11 was done to precipitate the invasion of iraq ... without 9/11 - there is no way you'd be in iraq now ... state of fear, patriot act, homeland security, etc ... it's been done many times in history before and it works almost every time ...

    That isnt supported by any historical context. We were in Vietnam for almost a quarter of a century without having been attacked.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    That is after the fact. We had a war with Iraq in the 90s without killing Americans to do so. Clinton bombed Iraq without killing Americans to do so. Clinton with to war in Kosovo without killing Americans to do so. The idea that Bush needed to pull off 9/11 to go to war with Iraq is simply not supported by any type of historical context.

    are any of your examples including occupation? ... there is no way you would be invading and occupying iraq today without the events of 9/11 ...
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    are any of your examples including occupation? ... there is no way you would be invading and occupying iraq today without the events of 9/11 ...

    Explain Vietnam then. Im sorry but this is my problem with some of these conspiracies. You have no evidence to back up this claim. You are simply making it up because you want it to be true, despite the fact that historical context shows you are not correct.
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    polaris wrote:
    ... there is no way you would be invading and occupying iraq today without the events of 9/11 ...

    thats supposition and isnt based on any fact whatsoever.

    its just your opinion :)
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    ok ... i'll just post to both of you guys ...

    you were in vietnam on the guise that communism would destroy america if it was allowed to spread ... again - an agent of fear ...

    and the purpose of iraq was not regime change ... it is war profiteering ... what was the last country the US invaded and occupied openly? ... to this day no one talks about panama ...

    this was about a full on war that would result in huge engineering contracts and private military contracts and the building of huge military bases for future operations n the middle east ...

    my apologies to OP for derailing this thread

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