Russian Forces Invade Georgia

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  • LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun
    LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun Posts: 6,097
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    And why didn't they just call it 'North Georgia'? I think that map maker is going to be facing a trial and firing squad pretty soon.
    they really should be more careful when naming these things!
    reborncareerist wrote:
    ...
    The Ossetians are not ethnically Russian ... North Ossetia is technically part of Russia, while the South is technically part of Georgia. I am not sure how this was decided. Many in South Ossetia wish to unify with North Ossetia, which makes a certain amount of sense. However, this would mean becoming part of the Russian state. I believe that both Ossetias are "autonomous regions", meaning that they are essentially self-governing.
    The Russians have been issuing South Ossetians passports, and have been basically making them Russian citizens. Thus the "protecting their own" remark. I do not view the South Ossetians are proud Russians, though. They've been co-opted, basically, for political reasons..

    it just sounds like a whole lot of bullshit to me on both sides. The Russians and NATO are just fighting over land, oil, resources, whatever. same ole shit. it seems that some here are so biased against the US that they are automatically against Georgia for the sole reason that they are supported by the west, which makes no sense whatsoever. the Russians definitely aren't just protecting their own. they just want control over the same thing the west wants control over.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    reborncareerist wrote:
    The Ossetians are not ethnically Russian ... North Ossetia is technically part of Russia, while the South is technically part of Georgia. I am not sure how this was decided. Many in South Ossetia wish to unify with North Ossetia, which makes a certain amount of sense. However, this would mean becoming part of the Russian state. I believe that both Ossetias are "autonomous regions", meaning that they are essentially self-governing.
    The Russians have been issuing South Ossetians passports, and have been basically making them Russian citizens. Thus the "protecting their own" remark. I do not view the South Ossetians are proud Russians, though. They've been co-opted, basically, for political reasons.
    ...
    It sounds like the Kurds... Northern part in Turkey, Southern in Iraq. They would love to have their own independent state, too.
    My question in... who the fuck is drawing these goddamn maps?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • meme
    meme Posts: 4,695
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    It sounds like the Kurds... Northern part in Turkey, Southern in Iraq. They would love to have their own independent state, too.
    My question in... who the fuck is drawing these goddamn maps?

    Well, it's not just the map drawing :)

    I have had to study abkhazia a while ago. Thing is people have moved among previously non-existing borders for centuries. Ethnicities have been made and re-made, as have identities. Conversions... it's a mess and fascinating. That, and a shitload of gas runs through those areas.
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    The whole situation is fucked up. What I find utterly ridiculous is how our leaders are criticizing the Russians (remember from all reports the Georgians invaded South Ossetia) but back when Israel invaded Lebonan a few years ago they didn't say shit. Also wasn't our intervention, along with NATO, back in Kosovo basically the same thing the Russians are doing right now in Georgia.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    meme wrote:
    That, and a shitload of gas runs through those areas.


    You just hit the nail on the head. I'm pretty damn sure if that was not the case Russia nor the US would give a rats ass what happens in that remote part of the world.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • corduroy85
    corduroy85 Posts: 139
    Cosmo wrote:
    Well... not that I'm defending the Russians... I think they are assholes...

    And why didn't they just call it 'North Georgia'? I think that map maker is going to be facing a trial and firing squad pretty soon.

    Good going, man! Thumbs up! You gotta have an intelligence of a carrot to claim such things so blindly and categorically. Let me think how it's called. Oh I now! Nationalism.

    Because Ossetians is one indivisible nation.
    reborncareerist wrote:
    The Russians are not justified when it comes to extending the war beyond South Ossetian territory and onto Georgian (per se) soil ... I can MAYBE see the "peacekeeping" argument, insofar as pushing the Georgians out of South Ossetia ... But then pull back. Attempting to destroy the Georgian military has nothing to do with protecting South Ossetia and everything to do with giving the West the metaphorical finger.

    They do it because it seems the only way to stop Georgian intrusion and conflict escalation in the region.
    Oh before I forget, the fact that you think that Georgians are better soldiers is plain hilarious. The joke of the day for me.

    MrSmith wrote:
    as for media bias, i havent watched the news much lately, but i havent seen any real bias on CNN yet. they had Georgia's president on and the interviewer was pretty tough and quick to point out his accusations were all unconfirmed. They seem pretty neutral to me.
    MrSmith wrote:
    can someone tell me why if South Ossetia is Russian, why it was made part of georgia after the USSR collapsed? someone said the Russians were protecting their own, yet they are fighting in Georgia. i need a history lesson here.

    There's a huge media bias from US and Western countries, you're just ignorant and eat up every little pile of crap that your channels feed you.
    If it fits for you to blame Russia/Red Threat/Evil Empire/whatever you wanna call it for what's happenning in South Ossetia, you can't see past your own nose. Obviously Russia is the root of all evil in that situation for you.
    And the fact that Georgians barged in South Osettia first and started nazi-like killings of innocent civilians, the fact that Georgian military corpus in Ossetia exceeded the number of Russian peacekeepers (who Georgians btw finished off mercilessly and despicably) by 12x means shit to you.

    Go learn some history but not from Fox news.

    Talk about fucking double standards! Sure, Hussein who destroyed some small villages you hang, but a man who employed genocide to settle territory issues (which is, by the way, one of the default requirements for joinig NATO) thus reaching his lucrative goals you defend. The same thing was once with Ben Laden who you nurtured in the first place and who came back to bite you in the ass in 9/11.

    puremagic, you're the only levelheaded person in this thread.
    Don't go messing with machoes!
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    meme wrote:
    That, and a shitload of gas runs through those areas.

    Gas runs through just about everywhere in the globe. There's oil running through Alaska, a barren wasteland.

    We need to be careful about always using that excuse. Sometimes countries do things for reasons besides oil.

    For instance, Russia might be doing what they're doing because of...nationalism.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    corduroy85 wrote:
    Good going, man! Thumbs up! You gotta have an intelligence of a carrot to claim such things so blindly and categorically. Let me think how it's called. Oh I now! Nationalism.

    Because Ossetians is one indivisible nation.



    They do it because it seems the only way to stop Georgian intrusion and conflict escalation in the region.
    Oh before I forget, the fact that you think that Georgians are better soldiers is plain hilarious. The joke of the day for me.






    There's a huge media bias from US and Western countries, you're just ignorant and eat up every little pile of crap that your channels feed you.
    If it fits for you to blame Russia/Red Threat/Evil Empire/whatever you wanna call it for what's happenning in South Ossetia, you can't see past your own nose. Obviously Russia is the root of all evil in that situation for you.
    And the fact that Georgians barged in South Osettia first and started nazi-like killings of innocent civilians, the fact that Georgian military corpus in Ossetia exceeded the number of Russian peacekeepers (who Georgians btw finished off mercilessly and despicably) by 12x means shit to you.

    Go learn some history but not from Fox news.

    Talk about fucking double standards! Sure, Hussein who destroyed some small villages you hang, but a man who employed genocide to settle territory issues (which is, by the way, one of the default requirements for joinig NATO) thus reaching his lucrative goals you defend. The same thing was once with Ben Laden who you nurtured in the first place and who came back to bite you in the ass in 9/11.

    puremagic, you're the only levelheaded person in this thread.

    Dude, crack a book once in a while ... Or even surf the web, if you'd prefer. Heck, wikipedia the Georgian army. It'll be an educational experience. If you can tear yourself away from Rocky 4 long enough, that is ... I know, I know ... Draco got a raw deal ... He had Rocky right where he wanted him. "Red power", and all that jazz ...
  • corduroy85
    corduroy85 Posts: 139
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    For instance, Russia might be doing what they're doing because of...nationalism.

    Let me get this straight. So we defend innocent civialians against the agressor because of nationalism. You mean we want to show Georgians that Georgian nation is inferior compared to Russian nation? Is that what you're getting at?

    It's the same old story. You were reading the wrong books which say that if it were not for Americans World War II would not be won.
    reborncareerist wrote:
    Dude, crack a book once in a while ... Or even surf the web, if you'd prefer. Heck, wikipedia the Georgian army. It'll be an educational experience. If you can tear yourself away from Rocky 4 long enough, that is ... I know, I know ... Draco got a raw deal ... He had Rocky right where he wanted him. "Red power", and all that jazz ...

    It's the other way around, "dude", seems like you've been learning the history from Rocky 4, Rambo 3 along with Wikipedia and other "exhaustive" Internet information sources.
    Don't go messing with machoes!
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    corduroy85 wrote:
    Let me get this straight. So we defend innocent civialians against the agressor because of nationalism. You mean we want to show Georgians that Georgian nation is inferior compared to Russian nation? Is that what you're getting at?

    It's the same old story. You were reading the wrong books which say that if it were not for Americans World War II would not be won.



    It's the other way around, "dude", seems like you've been learning the history from Rocky 4.

    Are you Russian?
  • corduroy85
    corduroy85 Posts: 139
    Open your eyes and see what "Location" line says.
    Don't go messing with machoes!
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    corduroy85 wrote:
    Open your eyes and see what "Location" line says.

    Ah ... "Douchebagastan". Now it all fits.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    In all seriousness, the conflict is not as simple as Russia just standing up for the little guy. Russia invading Georgia is not some random out of the blue act in the name of justice, anymore than Bush invading Iraq was. So no, puremagic is not the only person in this thread talking sense.
  • corduroy85
    corduroy85 Posts: 139
    reborncareerist wrote:
    Ah ... "Douchebagastan". Now it all fits.

    Just as I thought, another insult based on national hatred. Sweet.

    And just so you know, nobody except Georgia tried to resolve this situation by force i.e. by invasion. No army forces are going straight for Tbilisi as some sources claim. Russian forces were and are merely defending Ossetians against Gerogians who by the way fight sporting American surplus uniforms and guns.

    P.S. I've never displayed any national hatred for USA because it really shows the person's low level of intelligence. I think there are stupid powermongers and plain dumb people in pretty much every country. That's the way it is in this world.
    Don't go messing with machoes!
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    corduroy85 wrote:
    Just as I thought, another insult based on national hatred. Sweet.

    Aw, I am just funnin' ya. I do not hate Russians or anyone else. I just happen to think that invading Georgia is wrong, both from a legal and a moral standpoint. The Georgians have been punted out of South Ossetia, and surely now they got the message. There is no need to invade Georgian soil proper, unless the goal is to secure oil reserves, remove a pro-Western enclave, or settle old scores, NONE of which are acceptable reasons to invade a country. Sorry. My opinion and all that. Its a bad move. The world has enough bullshit wars going on.
  • flywallyfly
    flywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    It's not about oil. I think Russia is after Georgia's vodka supply.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    corduroy85 wrote:
    P.S. I've never displayed any national hatred for USA because it really shows the person's low level of intelligence. I think there are stupid powermongers and plain dumb people in pretty much ever country. That's the way it is in this world.

    Well, we can agree on this point.
  • corduroy85
    corduroy85 Posts: 139
    I personally think that WAR=WRONG. But if a war needs to be waged against those who try to kill your citizens then it's legitimate. It's just a matter of self-preservation and self-defence.

    I hope it ends soons, whole families have been killed, Tshkinvali's whole infrastructure is ruined. I don't have a clue what Saakashvili was thinking while biting the hand that feeds. Maybe he thought that US will back him up not only by weapons, uniform, consultants provisions but with a real intervention.
    Don't go messing with machoes!
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    corduroy85 wrote:
    I personally think that WAR=WRONG. But if a war needs to be waged against those who try to kill your citizens then it's legitimate. It's just a matter of self-preservation and self-defence.

    Hey, I'll be the first person to argue this point, IF indeed a war is waged solely for these reasons. I think there are times when military action is needed, and actually, I tend towards the view that many of the Russian military's actions against Chechen rebels (for example) can be justified using this kind of argument. I do not think that the Russians have the moral right to push this particular action beyond the bounds of South Ossetia, though. If it stops now, fine. The Russians should not dismantle the Georgian government/military, though. If they do so, it will be for reasons that have nothing to do with protecting South Ossetia.
  • corduroy85
    corduroy85 Posts: 139
    I think they would have stopped if Georgians have stopped. But now their Iraq contingent is on its way to the troubled region which shows they have no intention of resolving the matter in any other way but military.

    Therefore, if Georgians have no more military power left to act with then probably they will get round the table and discuss how the situation can be resolved peacefully.

    Definitely, some sort of document preserving the status quo must be worked out. Hell, there is no status quo left because Thkinvali have been completely wiped out. I don't know if US news channels show footage of the city, of the people but it's real ugly now. And thanks to Saakashvili it might get worse.
    Don't go messing with machoes!

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