Libertarian ideology

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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    So you believe that all human behavior is not dictated by free will. If not free will then what.

    The laws of the universe.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You still don't understand how that all works eh?

    How could I, absent free reason?
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The laws of the universe.

    I don't mean to simplify this but I'm trying to understand. So this morning when I skipped my morning cup of coffee it was the laws of the universe and not free will that caused me to do that.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    I don't mean to simplify this but I'm trying to understand. So this morning when I skipped my morning cup of coffee it was the laws of the universe and not free will that caused me to do that.

    Correct

    Look at it in two different ways.

    The first person perspective; I chose to skip my morning coffee

    The third person perspective; The laws of the universe caused me to choose to skip my morning coffee

    See, the brain is highly causal, with networks of neurons that fire together. For example, if I say "Don't think of a black cat." you automatically think of a black cat. This is because the words "black" and "cat" are associated with the visual, touch and sound representations in your neural networks. I could say "Don't think of a cat's meow" and of course you will think of the sound a cat makes. This is because the brain is causal, a part of the universe and therefor deterministic.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Correct

    Look at it in two different ways.

    The first person perspective; I chose to skip my morning coffee

    The third person perspective; The laws of the universe caused me to choose to skip my morning coffee

    See, the brain is highly causal, with networks of neurons that fire together. For example, if I say "Don't think of a black cat." you automatically think of a black cat. This is because the words "black" and "cat" are associated with the visual, touch and sound representations in your neural networks. I could say "Don't think of a cat's meow" and of course you will think of the sound a cat makes. This is because the brain is causal, a part of the universe and therefor deterministic.

    No offense but that just sounds like a bunch of psycho-babble to me. I find it hard to believe that the laws of the cosmos have any impact on my actions.

    By your logic then a criminal is not responsible for his/her actions because the laws of the universe caused them to do it.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    No offense but that just sounds like a bunch of psycho-babble to me. I find it hard to believe that the laws of the cosmos have any impact on my actions.

    By your logic then a criminal is not responsible for his/her actions because the laws of the universe caused them to do it.

    Forget about the moral and social implications of truth. Let's focus on truth for now.

    We are part of the universe, correct?
    The universe has certain laws, correct?
    Then by direct inferrence, we follow these laws, yes?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Forget about the moral and social implications of truth. Let's focus on truth for now.

    We are part of the universe, correct?
    The universe has certain laws, correct?
    Then by direct inferrence, we follow these laws, yes?

    Yes the universe has laws, for example physics, but none of those laws force a person's decision. You may make a decision based on your knowledge of the laws of the universe. I may not jump off of a tall object because of my knowledge of gravity, but in the end the decision is mine to make and not the universe's.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    No offense but that just sounds like a bunch of psycho-babble to me. I find it hard to believe that the laws of the cosmos have any impact on my actions.

    By your logic then a criminal is not responsible for his/her actions because the laws of the universe caused them to do it.

    Oh, by the way. That psycho-babble is the late Nobel Laureate Francis Crick. He co-discovered the double-helix structure of DNA which has catapulted our understandings of human beings to new levels. Many people have been spared of their ailments because of Crick's work. Far more than Dr. Emoto.

    Crick went on to become a neuroscientist and studied consciousness for a long fucking time and that is his "psycho-babble". But because you don't understand transduction and the NA+/K+ pump at the synaptic cleft, doesn't mean it's not true. In-fact anyone who is willing, and not lazy, to learn about the brain can and will find that it's far more plausible than any corporeal theories.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    Yes the universe has laws, for example physics, but none of those laws force a person's decision. You may make a decision based on your knowledge of the laws of the universe. I may not jump off of a tall object because of my knowledge of gravity, but in the end the decision is mine to make and not the universe's.

    You are part of the universe. You do not exist outside these laws. The electrical and chemical synapses in your brain are due to potassium, calcium and electrons flowing in the universe the way the universe works. You have no control over these functions. They control you.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Oh, by the way. That psycho-babble is the late Nobel Laureate Francis Crick. He co-discovered the double-helix structure of DNA which has catapulted our understandings of human beings to new levels. Many people have been spared of their ailments because of Crick's work. Far more than Dr. Emoto.

    Crick went on to become a neuroscientist and studied consciousness for a long fucking time and that is his "psycho-babble". But because you don't understand transduction and the NA+/K+ pump at the synaptic cleft, doesn't mean it's not true. In-fact anyone who is willing, and not lazy, to learn about the brain can and will find that it's far more plausible than any corporeal theories.


    Just because he was a genius and discovered the double helix doesn't mean that his other theories are as concrete.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You are part of the universe. You do not exist outside these laws. The electrical and chemical synapses in your brain are due to potassium, calcium and electrons flowing in the universe the way the universe works. You have no control over these functions. They control you.

    Just because my body is made of the same molecules that travel the cosmos doesn't mean that it controls my actions.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    ......studied consciousness for a long fucking time and that is his "psycho-babble". But because you don't understand transduction and the NA+/K+ pump at the synaptic cleft, doesn't mean it's not true. In-fact anyone who is willing, and not lazy, to learn about the brain can and will find that it's far more plausible than any corporeal theories.

    Hehehehehe......
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    Just because he was a genius and discovered the double helix doesn't mean that his other theories are as concrete.

    Actually, it takes the opposite intelligence of Einstein to deny that we are moved by the universe.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    But because you don't understand transduction and the NA+/K+ pump at the synaptic cleft, doesn't mean it's not true. In-fact anyone who is willing, and not lazy, to learn about the brain can and will find that it's far more plausible than any corporeal theories.

    But by your logic you really can't blame me because the universe made me say what I did. I also can't be blamed for not learning more about the brain because that's not what the universe wants me to do.

    Lastly how can you call me lazy and unwilling. Again based on this logic I have no will of my own and all my actions or lack of actions are dictated by the laws of the universe.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    Just because my body is made of the same molecules that travel the cosmos doesn't mean that it controls my actions.

    Actually. It does. These molecules don't make decisions. They react.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Actually, it takes the opposite intelligence of Einstein to deny that we are moved by the universe.

    What ever. The man was smart wether it was Einstain smart or the opposite of Einstein smart I'll leave that up to you. Well correction it's not up to you. I'll leave it up to the laws of the universe to decide for you.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    But by your logic you really can't blame me because the universe made me say what I did. I also can't be blamed for not learning more about the brain because that's not what the universe wants me to do.

    Lastly how can you call me lazy and unwilling. Again based on this logic I have no will of my own and all my actions or lack of actions are dictated by the laws of the universe.

    "lazy" and "willing" are descriptors for particular traits. I'm not blaming your free-will. I'm talking to that deliberator in your brain that has the ability to sort through these things. I'm giving it information. It will reference this information against existing percepts, and depending on how strong those percepts are and how susceptible you are to change, you may continue to completely deny it like FFG or others do.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Actually. It does. These molecules don't make decisions. They react.

    So a certain set of molecules with some connect to the cosmos reacted in a certain amnner this morning that caused me to forgo my morning cup of coffee because I wasn't in the mood for hazelnut, that's all I had in my cubboard, but rather in the mood for some kona blend.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    "lazy" and "willing" are descriptors for particular traits. I'm not blaming your free-will. I'm talking to that deliberator in your brain that has the ability to sort through these things. I'm giving it information. It will reference this information against existing percepts, and depending on how strong those percepts are and how susceptible you are to change, you may continue to completely deny it like FFG or others do.

    But I guess I don't know how susceptible to change I am because I have no will of my own. Maybe if free will existed I would be more open to change because that would be up to me, but since it's not I will wipe my hands clean and continue down life's road.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    "lazy" and "willing" are descriptors for particular traits. I'm not blaming your free-will. I'm talking to that deliberator in your brain that has the ability to sort through these things. I'm giving it information. It will reference this information against existing percepts, and depending on how strong those percepts are and how susceptible you are to change, you may continue to completely deny it like FFG or others do.

    Hehe...why don't you just shoot him? Me too. It would be easier.

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