becos the women around here dont hate me enough already

Jeanie · March 2007

soulsinging wrote:

women getting lighter sentences. i mentioned it earlier. there's a link in the original article discussing how this is a myth and just a bunch of media hoopla.

Well I did read that ss, but I assumed you were talking about America.

I was referring to Australia and it has been the case here that women who have sexual relations with minors have not been subject to the same sentencing as men.

Jeanie · March 2007

soulsinging wrote:

what study? the original study posted? i was talking more about how you and your friends aren't indicative of the norm of behavior. in general, pearl jam fans are well off the norm of society. you dont get into pearl jam's music if you're a mindless sex and the city acolyte. pearl jam fans are on the whole, far more liberal than average, better educated, wealthier, etc. we are not even close to a middle section of society.

and yes, the survey of the original post was conducted in sweden. i just thought it was interesting. sweden is more liberal than the US... they're kind of the cradle of liberal socialism... they dont marry as much, cohabit more, better health care, etc. so if their women are suffering from equality, id really like to see how it looks over here.

but my reply was to point out that your friends and this tiny little corner of the internet by no means indicates that your xp of how liberal and un-materialistic women are. you're not the norm. just as most guys around here aren't the norm of male behavior.

Righto! Got it! And you may have a point. But surely how I view the world, shapes the world I am in? Therefore would it not stand to reason that in my world this study or survey is not the "norm"? And that if I accept gender inequality I am helping to promote it? And by not accepting it I am in the position to help to bring about change in the world?

I'm not saying that gender inequality doesn't exist. Clearly it does. But I don't accept that it is the way things have to stay.

Oh and just for the record, I don't hate you at all.

boxwine_in_hell · March 2007

brain of c wrote:

i like the pretty.......

and the precious.

soulsinging · March 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Righto! Got it! And you may have a point. But surely how I view the world, shapes the world I am in? Therefore would it not stand to reason that in my world this study or survey is not the "norm"? And that if I accept gender inequality I am helping to promote it? And by not accepting it I am in the position to help to bring about change in the world?

I'm not saying that gender inequality doesn't exist. Clearly it does. But I don't accept that it is the way things have to stay.

Oh and just for the record, I don't hate you at all.

becos your question asked why we have all this angst going on. how you view the world does not shape the world you are in, only your perception of it. you ask why the angst... becos most of the men here meet their women in the real world. and they are by and large everyday women, not rabidly political pearl jam fans or chicks they picked up at the 2nd annual women who hate jewelry convention. so they deal with this shit and get frustrated. women deal with the same thing. thus why the angst... the world out there is vastly different from the ideal we talk about here. yeah, we dont have to accept stereotypes and can work to change them, but on the whole, we cannot change the way other people think and see the world very easily. which means that most women still demand a diamond ring and most men still expect her to do the housework.

and for the record, im glad to hear that but you're in the minority on that one i think

baraka · March 2007

soulsinging wrote:

becos your question asked why we have all this angst going on. how you view the world does not shape the world you are in, only your perception of it. you ask why the angst... becos most of the men here meet their women in the real world. and they are by and large everyday women, not rabidly political pearl jam fans or chicks they picked up at the 2nd annual women who hate jewelry convention. so they deal with this shit and get frustrated. women deal with the same thing. thus why the angst... the world out there is vastly different from the ideal we talk about here. yeah, we dont have to accept stereotypes and can work to change them, but on the whole, we cannot change the way other people think and see the world very easily. which means that most women still demand a diamond ring and most men still expect her to do the housework.

and for the record, im glad to hear that but you're in the minority on that one i think

Ha ha, and women never feel the same frustrations towards men :rolleyes:

soulsinging · March 2007

baraka wrote:

Ha ha, and women never feel the same frustrations towards men :rolleyes:

"women deal with the same thing."
"and most men still expect her to do the housework."

it's fun to only look for what you want in posts isnt it?

:rolleyes:

Jeanie · March 2007

soulsinging wrote:

becos your question asked why we have all this angst going on. how you view the world does not shape the world you are in, only your perception of it. you ask why the angst... becos most of the men here meet their women in the real world. and they are by and large everyday women, not rabidly political pearl jam fans or chicks they picked up at the 2nd annual women who hate jewelry convention. so they deal with this shit and get frustrated. women deal with the same thing. thus why the angst... the world out there is vastly different from the ideal we talk about here. yeah, we dont have to accept stereotypes and can work to change them, but on the whole, we cannot change the way other people think and see the world very easily. which means that most women still demand a diamond ring and most men still expect her to do the housework.

and for the record, im glad to hear that but you're in the minority on that one i think

Well I'm a firm believer in "don't dream it be it"! So if you want it to change you have to "make it so No 1"! And if I can change my desire for a diamond ring, a husband, 2.4 kids and a perfect house then anybody can. I simply have to take what I've learned out into the world and make the information available to others. Now besides posting the article here who else did you speak to about it? And really ss, I think you are masquerading a little bit.

I mean do you honestly expect me to believe that you come here, rant and rave, promote the stance that you do but when you are in the world you behave like a neanderthal? I think not. This situation can be changed. It has been already. As long as we move forward with both genders being heard.
I think there a plenty of guys out there that do housework, and take care of the child rearing, that stay at home with the kids, and I only have to try to get into Bunnings on a Saturday to know that at least half of their customers are now women. Women who want to learn to DIY. Women who can buy their own damn jewellery. What I didn't see on your survey was what the marriage/cohabitation rates are. Because I think that possibly they have dropped, just like in other parts of the world. Which kinda null and voids the issue anyway. Look as far as I can see, the 1900's were a time for women to secure the vote, followed by a war where men fought and women kept countries going, the 1920's were a time of promiscuity and hedonism, the 1930's and 40' saw women again working to keep whole countries going while men fought. Then the swing back to conservatism in the 1950s designed to keep everyone under control, breeding and working to get countries going again after the war, followed by the backlash of the 60's and 70's where its all about free love, sexual freedom, and protest at the establishment. What next? The 80's where it's all about high flyers, making money and spending up large, the 90's see a semi return to 70's type thinking and here we are in the naughties. At war, and consuming way more than we can sustain. If women now have the vote, have crashed through the glass ceiling and are also rearing children and running households it's only because of the myth left over from the feminist movement that we could have it all. Someone forgot to mention, not all at once. And if men are slow to catch up on that or some of them are utilizing it to their advantage, that's ok, it's what we've come to expect. But sooner or later, things will change again. And sooner or later true equality must be realized. Because too many of us want it. Men and women. It's just that many of us don't know it yet. We are due for a period of free love, and personal growth just as soon as all this warmongering settles down. And hopefully the insidious conservatism that is beginning to pervade everything. I can't imagine that people won't be sick of being so strait laced soon enough. And perhaps it will be revisited then. That's my predicition anyways. But I don't doubt that we will continue to move forward.

Oh and just because I'm a minority doesn't mean I'm wrong!

Jeanie · March 2007

boxwine_in_hell wrote:

and the precious.

"aaah the precious!! we wants it we do!!!"

soulsinging · March 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Well I'm a firm believer in "don't dream it be it"! So if you want it to change you have to "make it so No 1"! And if I can change my desire for a diamond ring, a husband, 2.4 kids and a perfect house then anybody can. I simply have to take what I've learned out into the world and make the information available to others. Now besides posting the article here who else did you speak to about it? And really ss, I think you are masquerading a little bit.
I mean do you honestly expect me to believe that you come here, rant and rave, promote the stance that you do but when you are in the world you behave like a neanderthal? I think not. This situation can be changed. It has been already. As long as we move forward with both genders being heard.
I think there a plenty of guys out there that do housework, and take care of the child rearing, that stay at home with the kids, and I only have to try to get into Bunnings on a Saturday to know that at least half of their customers are now women. Women who want to learn to DIY. Women who can buy their own damn jewellery. What I didn't see on your survey was what the marriage/cohabitation rates are. Because I think that possibly they have dropped, just like in other parts of the world. Which kinda null and voids the issue anyway. Look as far as I can see, the 1900's were a time for women to secure the vote, followed by a war where men fought and women kept countries going, the 1920's were a time of promiscuity and hedonism, the 1930's and 40' saw women again working to keep whole countries going while men fought. Then the swing back to conservatism in the 1950s designed to keep everyone under control, breeding and working to get countries going again after the war, followed by the backlash of the 60's and 70's where its all about free love, sexual freedom, and protest at the establishment. What next? The 80's where it's all about high flyers, making money and spending up large, the 90's see a semi return to 70's type thinking and here we are in the naughties. At war, and consuming way more than we can sustain. If women now have the vote, have crashed through the glass ceiling and are also rearing children and running households it's only because of the myth left over from the feminist movement that we could have it all. Someone forgot to mention, not all at once. And if men are slow to catch up on that or some of them are utilizing it to their advantage, that's ok, it's what we've come to expect. But sooner or later, things will change again. And sooner or later true equality must be realized. Because too many of us want it. Men and women. It's just that many of us don't know it yet. We are due for a period of free love, and personal growth just as soon as all this warmongering settles down. And hopefully the insidious conservatism that is beginning to pervade everything. I can't imagine that people won't be sick of being so strait laced soon enough. And perhaps it will be revisited then. That's my predicition anyways. But I don't doubt that we will continue to move forward.

Oh and just because I'm a minority doesn't mean I'm wrong!

im curious what stance you think i promote here. im not even sure i have one. nor do i see what relevance marriage rates would have on this survery. free love was a failed experiment and the conservatism we both dislike is simply a reaction to the excess of the free love movement. i dont doubt things are more equal now than they have been, nor that they will continue to be equal. but equal does not mean "the same." and all i posted this for was discussion about at what point does the pursuit of being the same hurt our happiness? equal opportunity and access is important to have as an option, but does it mean we should continue to choose options that make us unhappy just becos they are there? im not saying women should stay home and men should go to work, but i am saying women should not feel they have to work a job they dont want to prove they are independent, and men should not be prohibitied from staying home and raising kids becos they feel it is unmasculine. it should be about breaking down barriers to happiness and fulfillment, not replacing one form of expectations with another.

Jeanie · March 2007

soulsinging wrote:

im curious what stance you think i promote here. im not even sure i have one. nor do i see what relevance marriage rates would have on this survery. free love was a failed experiment and the conservatism we both dislike is simply a reaction to the excess of the free love movement. i dont doubt things are more equal now than they have been, nor that they will continue to be equal. but equal does not mean "the same." and all i posted this for was discussion about at what point does the pursuit of being the same hurt our happiness? equal opportunity and access is important to have as an option, but does it mean we should continue to choose options that make us unhappy just becos they are there? im not saying women should stay home and men should go to work, but i am saying women should not feel they have to work a job they dont want to prove they are independent, and men should not be prohibitied from staying home and raising kids becos they feel it is unmasculine. it should be about breaking down barriers to happiness and fulfillment, not replacing one form of expectations with another.

Well your survey mentioned women taking on greater domestic roles on top of working and men allowing this to happen. I just figure if you're not married then this wouldn't really be the case right? I mean I don't know any single women who are going to work a full day, then race around to some blokes house and do the housework on top of that just for the hell of it. So this could really only be happening in marriage/cohabitation situations. I was thinking if the marriage rate had actually dropped, which it has in many parts of the world, then perhaps all the doom and gloom is not quite as the survey presents it. I mean, it's only an article and one survey. Otherwise, I think all that you have said I am in agreement about. Well I didn't really like your obsession with engagement rings, but then Ahnimus has that too so perhaps it's a bit of a phobia sweeping the country!!

As to men and women being the same, I would hate that. And I would never advocate that we try to blur the gender roles so much that we lose our intrinsic differences. But I'm fairly certain that's not going to happen. The physical differences alone should be enough to ensure that doesn't happen.

soulsinging · March 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Well your survey mentioned women taking on greater domestic roles on top of working and men allowing this to happen. I just figure if you're not married then this wouldn't really be the case right? I mean I don't know any single women who are going to work a full day, then race around to some blokes house and do the housework on top of that just for the hell of it. So this could really only be happening in marriage/cohabitation situations. I was thinking if the marriage rate had actually dropped, which it has in many parts of the world, then perhaps all the doom and gloom is not quite as the survey presents it. I mean, it's only an article and one survey. Otherwise, I think all that you have said I am in agreement about. Well I didn't really like your obsession with engagement rings, but then Ahnimus has that too so perhaps it's a bit of a phobia sweeping the country!!

As to men and women being the same, I would hate that. And I would never advocate that we try to blur the gender roles so much that we lose our intrinsic differences. But I'm fairly certain that's not going to happen. The physical differences alone should be enough to ensure that doesn't happen.

i wasnt obsessed with engagement rings, that was all the other pansy guys around here who seem as concerned with jewelry as a woman. i couldnt care less about engagement rings. in fact, i dont think i mentioned them until this post which was only a joking passing reference to them.

the survey doesnt say what the sample was. i didnt see any indication it was restricted to married or cohabiting couples in terms of its sample. its theories were only guesses to explain the results. but there's not enough about the sample to draw any conclusions about that. in any case, i dont know if lack of cohabiting would make any difference or not. going by their conclusions, i suppose it would. but if their sample was random, i dont think it would make a difference in terms of happiness, but it would means their hypothetical reasons for dissatisfaction are wrong.

but the whole values/costs of marriage vs. single life is a whole other debate. for the sake of this survey, i think the assumption is men and women have since the dawn of time liked to pair off and will continue to do so. whether or not that is a good thing is a whole other debate and one i think we would really butt heads on.

NMyTree · March 2007

hippiemom wrote:

But more importantly, who gives a fuck? Do you keep score in your relationships? That's a sure-fire recipe for unhappiness.

Ain't that the truth!

I went through exactly that with my Ex (the mother of my kids).

I've never been a person who keeps track. As far as I'm concerned, when you love someone there's nothing to keep track of. And that goes for close friends that I love, not just romantic/intimate releationships. I do things for someone because I love them and I want to help, make them happy, see them happy and see them smile. In a relationship, with someone you love there really are no favors. You either do things because you want to be there for them, want to help and be part of the solution; or it becomes a torrid exchange or negotiation of even the pettiest of daily chores.

That's no way to be happy or live.

But after a few years with my Ex she made it painfully clear that she was keeping track. Not only was she carrying a mental scorecard around in her head, but there was always these tipping scales on each side of her head that weighted everything in favors received and favors given.

if that wasn't bad enough, her standards of fairness are greatly tipped in her favor. She routinely pushed this subject to the forefront for discussion and alwayd felt like she was being short-changed. So after having this subject shoved down my throat, I actually gave it some honest and fair thought and discovered the truth of the matter.

For instance, when she would do something nice for me.....something she would consider and catagorize as a "favor"; in her mind, it would take 4-5 acts on my part just to equlal or balance out these mental scales of injustice in her head.

This is coming from her own behavior and the discussions we had; her own mouth. Not some vague perception or speculation on my part.

I found all this very odd and strange. Never had I encountered a girlfriend like this. I had never been with anyone who was like this.

For years I tired to make her understand that I didn't spend my days (of life ) weighing this shit out and concerning myself about which way the scales were tipping on any given day. I tried every approach to communicate, convey, and speak from the heart to her.

The mistake I made was thinking that if I stuck with it I could help her understand how ridiculous and detrimental this was to our relationship; and how she was being completely unfair, unbalanced and very selective in her weighing of "favors". That when you love someone you don't concern yourself with that crap and she shouldn't be doing that.

It was a mistake. She refused to be honest with herself and with me. She refused to be honest in her self-awareness and accountability.

It's always a mistake to think you can change someone and I know better than that. But there you have it.

So after seven and a half years and two kids we broke up and seperated.

Surprisingly (or not so surprising), she had an amazing moment of clarity and reality. Reality set in.........in a hard way.

For the better part of nine months she has been scrambling to convince me she has "changed" and that she now appreciates all that I did, provided and appreciates me as the father of our children.

Sad thing, it's too late. She killed it with that keeping track crap and those scales of injustice.

MrBrian · March 2007

Jeanwah wrote:

Obviously the these people that think you're crazy and ask you why you don't shave have too much a preoccupation with appearance. Go ask the people who are big in personality, rather, what they think and you'll get a different response.

I don't think i even need to ask, people just come up and talk to me sometimes. I've had a few girls say some pretty funny things, good things. Infact I was gonna shave a couple weeks ago then I met this italian girl and she did'nt seem to mind, she kinda liked it or just did'nt care. That made me put down the razor once again. I mean she was like oh brian, don't cut don't cut. Not only her, women from norwary, france... They all dress up themselves so they do care how they look and whatever else but they seem less worried about how others look or dress.

Americans girls? that's another story, I think a large portion of them are caught on with appearance, perhaps coming from their own insecurities, so maybe they need everything around them to be "perfect" to make themselves feel better. I dunno, I mean I see the tv, everythings about how to make yourself look like this actor or how to get your hair like that way, it's seems so empty to me.

One of the reasoms why I like orlando, maybe the only reason is because I meet soooo many people from different countries, almost everyones from some place else. it's amazing how different people are. how unique each countries people often are from other countries.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · March 2007

DO people go online just to read about other people go on talking about themselves?

I mean.....that's kinda odd, not to mention boring.

Isn't talking about yourself excessively one of the first rules on how to sabotage a date or get someone (who actually is interested in the first place) to genuinely lose interest?

soulsinging · March 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

DO people go online just to read about other people go on talking about themselves?

I mean.....that's kinda odd, not to mention boring.

Isn't talking about yourself excessively one of the first rules on how to sabotage a date or get someone (who actually is interested in the first place) to genuinely lose interest?

i think a lot of people come on here to flirt with each other and garner attention.

norm · March 2007

NMyTree wrote:

Ain't that the truth!

I went through exactly that with my Ex (the mother of my kids).

I've never been a person who keeps track. As far as I'm concerned, when you love someone there's nothing to keep track of. And that goes for close friends that I love, not just romantic/intimate releationships. I do things for someone because I love them and I want to help, make them happy, see them happy and see them smile. In a relationship, with someone you love there really are no favors. You either do things because you want to be there for them, want to help and be part of the solution; or it becomes a torrid exchange or negotiation of even the pettiest of daily chores.

That's no way to be happy or live.

But after a few years with my Ex she made it painfully clear that she was keeping track. Not only was she carrying a mental scorecard around in her head, but there was always these tipping scales on each side of her head that weighted everything in favors received and favors given.

if that wasn't bad enough, her standards of fairness are greatly tipped in her favor. She routinely pushed this subject to the forefront for discussion and alwayd felt like she was being short-changed. So after having this subject shoved down my throat, I actually gave it some honest and fair thought and discovered the truth of the matter.

For instance, when she would do something nice for me.....something she would consider and catagorize as a "favor"; in her mind, it would take 4-5 acts on my part just to equlal or balance out these mental scales of injustice in her head.

This is coming from her own behavior and the discussions we had; her own mouth. Not some vague perception or speculation on my part.

I found all this very odd and strange. Never had I encountered a girlfriend like this. I had never been with anyone who was like this.

For years I tired to make her understand that I didn't spend my days (of life ) weighing this shit out and concerning myself about which way the scales were tipping on any given day. I tried every approach to communicate, convey, and speak from the heart to her.

The mistake I made was thinking that if I stuck with it I could help her understand how ridiculous and detrimental this was to our relationship; and how she was being completely unfair, unbalanced and very selective in her weighing of "favors". That when you love someone you don't concern yourself with that crap and she shouldn't be doing that.

It was a mistake. She refused to be honest with herself and with me. She refused to be honest in her self-awareness and accountability.

It's always a mistake to think you can change someone and I know better than that. But there you have it.

So after seven and a half years and two kids we broke up and seperated.

Surprisingly (or not so surprising), she had an amazing moment of clarity and reality. Reality set in.........in a hard way.

For the better part of nine months she has been scrambling to convince me she has "changed" and that she now appreciates all that I did, provided and appreciates me as the father of our children.

Sad thing, it's too late. She killed it with that keeping track crap and those scales of injustice.

Holy shit!?!?!!?!!!! I never knew people actually thought this way. :eek:

RolandTD20Kdrummer · March 2007

soulsinging wrote:

i think a lot of people come on here to flirt with each other and garner attention.

Odd. You would think most would seek information over the mundane sitting in front of a computer.

NMyTree · March 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

DO people go online just to read about other people go on talking about themselves?

I mean.....that's kinda odd, not to mention boring.

Isn't talking about yourself excessively one of the first rules on how to sabotage a date or get someone (who actually is interested in the first place) to genuinely lose interest?

Or I was simply sharing an experience that related directly to what hippiemom had said.

You know, not everyone thinks and percieves things the way you do.

Sometimes people are sharing a little bit of themselves with others. What you find boring, other's may percieve as a connection because they have experienced it, too. While other's may percieve it as something they can learn from.

Sometimes people's intentions are not exclusively what only you percieve them to be.

boxwine_in_hell · March 2007

Jeanie wrote:

"aaah the precious!! we wants it we do!!!"

"stole it from us he did."

NMyTree · March 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Odd. You would think most would seek information over the mundane sitting in front of a computer.

There's a lot to be learned from other people's experiences.

becos the women around here dont hate me enough already

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