Miraculous Messages from Water

angelica · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

What's to argue about, you don't believe in reason. You believe in belief.

It's clear you don't have an argument.

Ahnimus · May 2007

angelica wrote:

It's clear you don't have an argument.

I've lots of arguments. But you don't operate within a reasonable version of reality. Any reason you throw off and call it opinion.

lucylespian · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I haven't a clue if this is sarcasm or not... but if what you mean is that a lot of people are lacking significant comprehension on the full picture of all that is to be and exists in this universe than well ...yeah...

No, not sarcasm at all.

What I am saying is that humans do not adapt to their enviromnet, we adapt our environment to suit us. We maintain a constant body temerature for a start, which freee water does not. We don't change shape constantly like water does. If i t is cold, we don't grow a coat, we put on a coat or turn on a heater or close a window. WE really don't behave anything like "elemental" water. Our water is trapped inside zillions of wee litte scells, which prevent it from behaving like free water at all.

IN short, we don't have one evolutionary trick to fit s into one niche like ost organisms do. W e have one trick which lets us adapt the world to suit our relatviely unchanging form. It's called intelligence, and the opposable thumb is a key element to implementing our thoughts.

angelica · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I've lots of arguments. But you don't operate within a reasonable version of reality. Any reason you throw off and call it opinion.

No one is responsible for the personal insults you use except for yourself.

Ahnimus · May 2007

angelica wrote:

No one is responsible for the personal insults you use except for yourself.

No one is responsible for interpreting statements as personal insults against you except yourself.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

No, not sarcasm at all.

What I am saying is that humans do not adapt to their enviromnet, we adapt our environment to suit us. We maintain a constant body temerature for a start, which freee water does not. We don't change shape constantly like water does. If i t is cold, we don't grow a coat, we put on a coat or turn on a heater or close a window. WE really don't behave anything like "elemental" water. Our water is trapped inside zillions of wee litte scells, which prevent it from behaving like free water at all.

IN short, we don't have one evolutionary trick to fit s into one niche like ost organisms do. W e have one trick which lets us adapt the world to suit our relatviely unchanging form. It's called intelligence, and the opposable thumb is a key element to implementing our thoughts.

There's a few problems with what you are saying. Namely that part about humans do not adapt to their environment. Humans have been shaped through adaptation largely by their environment. Most everything for that matter. This is called evolution. How does water inside a cell not behave like water? The size of the container or cell is irrelevant. Water behaves like water...there is no particular size restriction on how water behaves short of splitting the molecule. Aside from a phase change to steam or ice, temperature is not a mitigating factor that I can see. Our form is in constant change and always has been...it takes several thousands of years to notice it. We are never the same physically from one second to the next...

.

Ahnimus · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

There's a few problems with what you are saying. Namely that part about humans do not adapt to their environment. Humans have been shaped through adaptation largely by their environment. Most everything for that matter. This is called evolution. How does water inside a cell not behave like water? The size of the container or cell is irrelevant. Water behaves like water...there is no particular size restriction on how water behaves short of splitting the molecule. Aside from a phase change to steam or ice, temperature is not a mitigating factor that I can see. Our form is in constant change and always has been...it takes several thousands of years to notice it. We are never the same physically from one second to the next...

.

Ooh, that got me interested and I just knew I could find something on how humans have adapted in the last few centuries.

wikipedia wrote:

In the 18th and 19th centuries, descendants of Europeans living in North America were far taller than those in Europe. In fact, they were the tallest in the world. The original indigenous population of Plains Indians was also among the tallest populations of the world at the time.[1] Several nations, including many nations in Europe, have now surpassed the US, particularly the Netherlands, the Scandinavian nations and the people from the Dinaric Alps, in south-eastern Europe. The people from the Dinaric Alps are the tallest in the world (186 cm for males).

The Netherlands was in the late nineteenth century a land renowned for its short population, but today it has the 2nd tallest average in the world,[2] with young men averaging 183 cm (6 ft) tall and only shorter than the peoples of the Dinaric Alps (Montenegro, western Bosnia, coastal and hinterland Croatia and a part of Slovenia), where males average 186 cm (6 ft 1.1 in) tall. The Dinarians and Dutch are now well known in Europe for extreme tallness. In Africa, the Maasai are known for their tallness.

Average male height in impoverished Vietnam and North Korea[3] remains comparatively small at 163 cm (5 ft 4 in) and 165 cm (5 ft 5 in), respectively. Currently, young adult North Korean males are actually significantly shorter. This contrasts greatly with the extreme growth occurring in surrounding Asian populations with correlated increasing standards of living. Young South Koreans are about 8 cm (3 inches) taller than their North Korean counterparts, on average. There is also an extreme difference between older North Koreans and young North Koreans who grew up during the famines of the 1990s-2000s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Changes_in_human_height

lucylespian · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

There's a few problems with what you are saying. Namely that part about humans do not adapt to their environment. Humans have been shaped through adaptation largely by their environment. Most everything for that matter. This is called evolution. How does water inside a cell not behave like water? The size of the container or cell is irrelevant. Water behaves like water...there is no particular size restriction on how water behaves short of splitting the molecule. Aside from a phase change to steam or ice, temperature is not a mitigating factor that I can see. Our form is in constant change and always has been...it takes several thousands of years to notice it. We are never the same physically from one second to the next...

.

YOu are missing the point I am making, that humans main adaptive trick is to adopt behavioural strategies rather than long term evoultionary ones.
I am not denying that we have evolved or changed over a long period of time.
I am talking about short term changes though, over minutes to hours.
The discussion began with your comment about water taking on the phyiscal characteristics of it's surroundings.

Water in our cells certainly is still water. But macroscopically it is limited. It does not flow, for example, nor does it change temerature very much. It does not change phases either. It does not find it's own level through gravity, ie, we don't become a puddle, the water is confined into a defined shape through being trapped into cells, which are then arranged into a human shape.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

YOu are missing the point I am making, that humans main adaptive trick is to adopt behavioural strategies rather than long term evoultionary ones.
I am not denying that we have evolved or changed over a long period of time.
I am talking about short term changes though, over minutes to hours.
The discussion began with your comment about water taking on the phyiscal characteristics of it's surroundings.

Water in our cells certainly is still water. But macroscopically it is limited. It does not flow, for example, nor does it change temerature very much. It does not change phases either. It does not find it's own level through gravity, ie, we don't become a puddle, the water is confined into a defined shape through being trapped into cells, which are then arranged into a human shape.

I'd would argue we're essentially the ocean walking on land. Do we not freeze or boil when the associated temperatures are applied to us in the same manner as water? I think the magnitude of water thing is somewhat irrelevant in terms of big or small. Ever seen an IV drip?...does it look like a bag of tiny little individual cells, or exactly like a bag of water? Blood doesn't pop out of us like like fish eggs when were cut....it flows out pretty good like water if you ask me. Actually if it wasn't for the red color... I'm not seeing this vastly imposed cellular limitation you speak of. There's granularity, but not the complete separation of physical characteristics that you're pertaining to.

binger · May 2007

We evolved. If you think something different today then you did yesterday, and it opened your consciousness about another facet to this life puzzle, then you just evolved. If you learned to adapt to your environment, you evolved. We have been evolving from stardust, for billions of years. We are all the product of universal laws, gravity, light, magnetics, thermodynamics, just like the tree in my yard.

An interesting thing to consider is the Bonobo ape. A female dominated ape society, unlike their agressive chimp counterparts who fight and kill members of their own family, this group of monkeys is a sex-based society. The young males gathering food and the adult females eating first and then passing it out to the others. It was previously thought that monkeys could/did not just mate as a social habit, but alas!!

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

binger wrote:

We evolved. If you think something different today then you did yesterday, and it opened your consciousness about another facet to this life puzzle, then you just evolved. If you learned to adapt to your environment, you evolved. We have been evolving from stardust, for billions of years. We are all the product of universal laws, gravity, light, magnetics, thermodynamics, just like the tree in my yard.

An interesting thing to consider is the Bonobo ape. A female dominated aspe society, unlike their agressive chimp counterparts who fight and kill members of their own family, this group of monkeys are a sex-based society. The young males gathering food and the adult females eating first and then passing it out to the others. It was previously thought that monkeys could did not just mate as a docial habit, but alas!!

I posted some Bonobo pics a while back that looked freaking human... In some of them there was actually a discernible level of personality and emotion visible in their eyes.

closest living ancestors...no question about it. If we don't kill them all first they'll probably be talking a recognizable language in another 5000-10,000 years....that or playing poker and smoking cigars for real...

lucylespian · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I'd would argue we're essentially the ocean walking on land. Do we not freeze or boil when the associated temperatures are applied to us in the same manner as water? I think the magnitude of water thing is somewhat irrelevant in terms of big or small. Ever seen an IV drip?...does it look like a bag of tiny little individual cells, or exactly like a bag of water? Blood doesn't pop out of us like like fish eggs when were cut....it flows out pretty good like water if you ask me. Actually if it wasn't for the red color... I'm not seeing this vastly imposed cellular limitation you speak of. There's granularity, but not the complete separation of physical characteristics that you're pertaining to.

I never said that there was a complete separation of physical characteristics, just a relative one. Also, as to boiling and freezing. It's not that those things can't happen to us, it is that we are very adept at avoiding those things. I mean, we take our children out to play in blizzards for christ'sake !!

Elemental water does not stand and walk, but we do. The water does not change, but what happens to it when it is trapped in us does.

Of course, deliberate obtuseness will always defeat reason. Blood is also a non-newtonion fluid as well, so while is seems to flow like water out oof a cut, when it is flowing through our vessels , it behaves very differently.

Ahnimus · May 2007

We aren't all that much smarter than chimps.

http://www.monkey-proof.com

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

I never said that there was a complete separation of physical characteristics, just a relative one. Also, as to boiling and freezing. It's not that those things can't happen to us, it is that we are very adept at avoiding those things. I mean, we take our children out to play in blizzards for christ'sake !!

Elemental water does not stand and walk, but we do. The water does not change, but what happens to it when it is trapped in us does.

Of course, deliberate obtuseness will always defeat reason. Blood is also a non-newtonion fluid as well, so while is seems to flow like water out oof a cut, when it is flowing through our vessels , it behaves very differently.

55% of blood is plasma of that 92% is water....

I always thought a molecule was a molecule and ultimately behaved as such...

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

We aren't all that much smarter than chimps.

http://www.monkey-proof.com

Oui...bien sur...

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Oui...bien sur...

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jul2006/bonobo_female_sex.jpg

.

lucylespian · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

55% of blood is plasma of that 92% is water....

I always thought a molecule was a molecule and ultimately behaved as such...

Ahh, circles, and it was you who said you were not referring to water as a molecule, but as one of teh four essential elements, which is where I have been dirctling my comments since.

Of course a molecule is a molecule, but I have said that I am not referring to the molecular behaviour of water, which of course does not change.

The other 45% of blood is cells, mainly red cells, although that figure can be as high as 55%. It's the presence of those heavy cells which are flat bi-concave discs which makes blood a non-Newtnian fluid, despite that fact that the cells are also mostly water. Again, teh trapping of that water inside those cells affects how the fluid behaves. The Newtonian/Non Newt thing is a refenrce to fluid flow dynamics and how non-turbulent or laminar flow is achieved in our blood vessels. This is critically important to normla functioning of our cardio-vascular system, and breakdown of it is relevant ot development of heart disease.

It's not just the physical characteristics of water that determines it's behaviour, its also the phase and what compartments it is contained in.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

Ahh, circles, and it was you who said you were not referring to water as a molecule, but as one of teh four essential elements, which is where I have been dirctling my comments since.

Of course a molecule is a molecule, but I have said that I am not referring to the molecular behaviour of water, which of course does not change.

The other 45% of blood is cells, mainly red cells, although that figure can be as high as 55%. It's the presence of those heavy cells which are flat bi-concave discs which makes blood a non-Newtnian fluid, despite that fact that the cells are also mostly water. Again, teh trapping of that water inside those cells affects how the fluid behaves. The Newtonian/Non Newt thing is a refenrce to fluid flow dynamics and how non-turbulent or laminar flow is achieved in our blood vessels. This is critically important to normla functioning of our cardio-vascular system, and breakdown of it is relevant ot development of heart disease.

It's not just the physical characteristics of water that determines it's behaviour, its also the phase and what compartments it is contained in.

that's bullshit dude...whadaya you think's inbetween those cells flowing...pizza?

on what magnitude does water stop behaving and acting like water...

please....tell me... you haven't so far..

El_Kabong · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I think you are insane. That's just my belief.

Sanity; How closely our view of reality matches reality.

from a guy who argues our life is predetermined yet we are all born blank slates who can be made into whatever the caregiver chooses

lucylespian · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

that's bullshit dude...whadaya you think's inbetween those cells flowing...pizza?

on what magnitude does water stop behaving and acting like water...

please....tell me... you haven't so far..

YOu are getting pretty boring !!

It's not water that does not behave like water, it's humans that do not behave like water !! THat was the point of my original post. You asserted that because we are largely composed of water, that we behave just like it, and we clearly don't.

Blood does not behave like water when it is flowing. It is a Non-Newtonian fluid, water is Newtonian. Printers ink is also a Non-Newtonian fluid. Water foes not flow between blood cells, it flows with them, and they interact in a specific way to produce non-turbulent flow. They do not remain evenly mixed. the blood cells form parellel layers with a water layer on the outside so that no blood cells smash into the walls of the vessels. White cells spend most of their time resting on vessel wall, safe in that "cell -free parking lane"

The conversation is bullshit, I agree. Shame really, I see no point in further discussion , since you are clearly not interested in anything i have to say. I am also not really interested in your aggression over a trivial conversation.

Miraculous Messages from Water

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