11 Arguments Against Theism

deadnothingbetter wrote:

it doesn't really answer my question. but i can see how that would make sense since you are a mother. it still doesn't answer my question though.

forget that you are a mother and all your feelings of a mother are irrelevant. now put yourself in that perspective and think why would it be wrong if i were to leave the child for dead?

see thats the thing, i can not separate myself from being a mother.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, then let's use a different analogy. ok?

howabout someone umm, let's see, a guy that breaks his leg and asks, "can you take me to the hospital? my bone is literally breaking through my skin and i can see it. all i need is for you to take me to the hospital." what if you or i were to say, "get the hell outta here... i don't need to take you anywhere. i'm running low on gas so don't waste my time." how do you interpret that as wrong?

if you were to say... cause i would have taken him to the hospital. or if i was low on gas calle an ambulance or something. i wouldnt have left him there to bleed.
i view the action as inconsiderate.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yes... it certainly is inconsiderate. but why would it be wrong? what makes you determine that as inhumane, or "inconsiderate"?

youve got me. i dont know why it would be considered wrong by society's standards. but by my personal standards i could not in all good conscience walk on by.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i understand. in my personal standards i would certainly not walk on by... so i hope you wouldn't think i would do such a thing. i only wondered how atheists determined what is right and what is wrong. i mean, basically, it's part of our nature that makes us determine what is right and what is wrong. but i always wondered how atheists, or agnostics, interpret this.

well you do understand that even though i am an atheist my morality comes from a christian society. i am not fool enough to think i formed my morals in a void.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, that's a little complicated to understand cause a christian view of morality is based on their fear in God.

not really. i became an atheist at 11 years old. by then my morality had already been formed. it's not as if once i'd realised God was non existent everything i had learned would be stricken from my being.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

so is that to say that you're fear in god is still there?

how can i as an atheist have a fear in something i don't believe exists?

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, i'm only assuming because you said that your views of morality are still based on a christian perspective.

ah yes i can see how one would be confused by such an assertion. i see nothing wrong or contradictory about the basic tenets of christianity as they pertain to the treatment of our fellow man. i dont even have any doubt that jesus existed. it is his divinity and the existence of God that i disbelieve. i certainly am not going to dismiss something i have been brought up on, solely because it comes from christianity.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, i understand and i also respect that but the christian morality is based on their fear in God. It certainly does make sense, since you were brought up in a christian lifestyle you grew to obsorb the same moralities that your parents taught you. But in this case, what I am focusing on is the fact that the Christian interpretation for determining what is good and when to do it is simply due to their fear in God. i.e. in the case of the man with the broken leg, i would certainly feel obliged to do it because I have a fear in my heart that God is "looking" at me. So that is what I determine if it is good or not. In other words, it is what we call God's Holy Spirit that allows me to determine what is good and what is not good. So that's why it's a bit complicated to understand why your morality is based on a christian perspective.

then perhaps morality is innate in all of us. i don't have an answer for you other than how ive explained it.
i dont believe your morality is solely based on your fear of God. that just makes no sense to me at all. but it surely makes sense that that is what you have come to believe. if one is told since infancy that if they don't behave in a certain way then they will burn in eternal hell, then that can surely have an effect on one's thinking and actions.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i understand. in my personal standards i would certainly not walk on by... so i hope you wouldn't think i would do such a thing. i only wondered how atheists determined what is right and what is wrong. i mean, basically, it's part of our nature that makes us determine what is right and what is wrong. but i always wondered how atheists, or agnostics, interpret this.

I could have a crack at it, as I am atheist/agnostic in the sense you ask for here. I too am formed by society ofcourse. And society have christian morals, or so we think at least. However, I would point out that many of the values we have in society easily predate christianity and are possibly evolutionary in nature. At the very least going very long back into our cultural origins.

As for christians basing their morality on fear of god, I think that's rather reductionistic as well, as I am sure any christian will tell you.

Now, what do I base my morality on then? Simply "The golden rule" which is also presented by Jesus, but in no way originates with him. "Do unto others what you would have others do unto you". If you behave and treat people nicely with respect, chances are, you get the same treatment in return. Humans have a great sense of reciprosity, or at the very least our culture does. If you get a gift, you feel obliged to return a gift at a future point. A friend gives you a loan of money at one point, you feel obligated to return the favour if he asks a loan, and so on. The golden rule works, and it works well. And the more that abides by it, the better it works, and the more cooperative we become. This hasn't really a root in religion, but is most likely partly genetic, as human and primates in general are flock animals where cooperation has always been key. Thus acting "pro-social" is really in your own best interests, while acting "anti-socially" will deprive you of the help of others at some point. Good is helping people, cooperating and building communities and societies. Evil is actively hurting people, short-sighted selfishness and destroying community in favour of self.

That answer your question?

Peace
Dan

OutOfBreath wrote:

I could have a crack at it, as I am atheist/agnostic in the sense you ask for here. I too am formed by society ofcourse. And society have christian morals, or so we think at least. However, I would point out that many of the values we have in society easily predate christianity and are possibly evolutionary in nature. At the very least going very long back into our cultural origins.

As for christians basing their morality on fear of god, I think that's rather reductionistic as well, as I am sure any christian will tell you.

Now, what do I base my morality on then? Simply "The golden rule" which is also presented by Jesus, but in no way originates with him. "Do unto others what you would have others do unto you". If you behave and treat people nicely with respect, chances are, you get the same treatment in return. Humans have a great sense of reciprosity, or at the very least our culture does. If you get a gift, you feel obliged to return a gift at a future point. A friend gives you a loan of money at one point, you feel obligated to return the favour if he asks a loan, and so on. The golden rule works, and it works well. And the more that abides by it, the better it works, and the more cooperative we become. This hasn't really a root in religion, but is most likely partly genetic, as human and primates in general are flock animals where cooperation has always been key. Thus acting "pro-social" is really in your own best interests, while acting "anti-socially" will deprive you of the help of others at some point. Good is helping people, cooperating and building communities and societies. Evil is actively hurting people, short-sighted selfishness and destroying community in favour of self.

That answer your question?

Peace
Dan

Yes, it does. A little. But in no means am I trying to be pretentious. I think it's a good answer and it sure makes a lot of sense. I used the "fear in God" explanation in order to avoid using lengthy explanations that sounds like I'm preaching. I also understand how the fear in God might sound reductionistic.

Now while the example of Jesus teaching, "do unto others what you would have others do unto you" helps a lot, it still leaves other of his teachings out on the open. Such as "turning the other cheek". Now of course, like you said, it doesn't originate with him so that really doesn't matter.

But let's talk about goodness apart from society. If a friend were to leave me stranded on the middle of the road without giving me a ride why wouldn't it be okay for me to turn around and do the same thing to him? Or the case of a murder and the victim's family, is it okay for them to sentence the murderer to death for killing their daughter? These are intangible things that do not directly affect society by any means. It's more of a matter that affects us psychologically, or otherwise, emotionally.

Again, what determines that which is good? What sparks that motivation inside of us to do good, as in the case with your friend that needs a ride? While of course you would say, "well, that's what I would want others to do to me so I will do it." But what if nobody evers does it to you? Cause I know people who are like that. Would you cease to help him/her? Now if it is justifiable to you that in this case if this particular someone never offers a helping hand then it would be okay for you to ignore him/her in their time of need. But that doesn't really flow with the teachings of Jesus either. 70 x 7 is what I'm getting at here. His teachings were also, "keep doing good even if nobody returns the favor." There are also teachings where he said that if you lend someone borrow money never ask for it back. And also never be in debt with anyone. Am I making sense? I don't know I'm kinda sleepy.