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11 Arguments Against Theism

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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Exactly
    are you saying morality doesn't exist?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    are you saying morality doesn't exist?

    It exists as a human social construct for survivability. But the universe cares not.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It exists as a human social construct for survivability. But the universe cares not.
    Then what is good? Is it also a human construct for survivability?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    Then what is good? Is it also a human construct for survivability?

    good is what happens when we supress our natural animalistic nature for the sake of society.
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    catefrances wrote:
    good is what happens when we supress our natural animalistic nature for the sake of society.
    But by all means, society is also a human construction for survival.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    catefrances wrote:
    good is what happens when we supress our natural animalistic nature for the sake of society.

    If you're talking about killing other human beings I've got to disagree. I don't think murder is "natural" or "animalistic".
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    gue_barium wrote:
    If you're talking about killing other human beings I've got to disagree. I don't think murder is "natural" or "animalistic".
    "animalistic"? yes. animals kill, because it is part of their nature in order to survive.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    "animalistic"? yes. animals kill, because it is part of their nature in order to survive.
    I said "murder".
    Instances of animals killing within their own species is rare. At least among the higher mammals. It happens, but I wouldn't say that makes it natural.
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    I said "murder".
    Instances of animals killing within their own species is rare. At least among the higher mammals. It happens, but I wouldn't say that makes it natural.

    you mean to tell me that when something happens within Nature it is possible for it to be considered unnatural?
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    If you're talking about killing other human beings I've got to disagree. I don't think murder is "natural" or "animalistic".

    nope. i'm talking about violence.
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    gue_barium wrote:
    I said "murder".
    Instances of animals killing within their own species is rare. At least among the higher mammals. It happens, but I wouldn't say that makes it natural.
    oh... ok. you kinda blew me off when you used the word killing.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    catefrances wrote:
    nope. i'm talking about violence.
    it's kinda the same thing.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    it's kinda the same thing.

    umm.... no. it's kinda not.

    i can be violent. but that doesn't mean i would kill someone.
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    catefrances wrote:
    umm.... no. it's kinda not.

    i can be violent. but that doesn't mean i would kill someone.
    now, you've got me confused. if violence is the natural animalistic nature, then what is killing? is it any less justifiable or more justifiable than violence?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I am a great thinker :p

    i think the verdict is still out on that one.

    You can cut and paste with the best of them though. You'll get no argument there.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    now, you've got me confused. if violence is the natural animalistic nature, then what is killing? is it any less justifiable or more justifiable than violence?

    what i meant was that violence doesn't equate to killing. not that killing isn't animalistic by nature. animals kill animals all the time. and some murder some. ive seen chimpanzees steal a baby form its mother and murder it as she screamed for its return.
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    catefrances wrote:
    what i meant was that violence doesn't equate to killing. not that killing isn't animalistic by nature. animals kill animals all the time. and some murder some. ive seen chimpanzees steal a baby form its mother and murder it as she screamed for its return.
    i don't know. but reading from the past recent posts we sort of deviated from the original question. that goodness is "when we supress our natural animalistic nature for the sake of society" as you said.

    i find it intriguing at how others interpret goodness. so i guess that was my intention, to understand your concepts of goodness. and ahnimus's also.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    i feel that goodness is not just about not doing harm to others. but extending that to being empathetic towards those who do and wish us harm.
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    now for the sake of whatever the hell else there might be to understand... what drives us to do good? for instance, there are mean unsympathetic people who would do harm. not just physical violent harm but also untangible harm such as discriminizing, taunting and slandering for no particular reason. maybe just because they are bitter or because they love to harm others. but in essence what is wrong with that? what would drive others to fear doing this or the fear of harming others and feel remorse and sympathy for those in need?

    for example, you see a child who is in need and you feel sympathy for the child. why? what harm would it do you if you just ignore the child and walk away and go on with your life?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    catefrances wrote:
    you mean to tell me that when something happens within Nature it is possible for it to be considered unnatural?

    Do know of any instances of chimpanzee killing chimpanzee? Dolphin killing dolphin? Whale killing whale?
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    now for the sake of whatever the hell else there might be to understand... what drives us to do good? for instance, there are mean unsympathetic people who would do harm. not just physical violent harm but also untangible harm such as discriminizing, taunting and slandering for no particular reason. maybe just because they are bitter or because they love to harm others. but in essence what is wrong with that? what would drive others to fear doing this or the fear of harming others and feel remorse and sympathy for those in need?

    for example, you see a child who is in need and you feel sympathy for the child. why? what harm would it do you if you just ignore the child and walk away and go on with your life?

    children need guidance. they need love and they need nurturing.

    as for not doing others harm. i dont see the point. it leads to nothing. it's a power trip and i don't dig on that kind of power.
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    catefrances wrote:
    you mean to tell me that when something happens within Nature it is possible for it to be considered unnatural?

    Rarely, large lion males will kill cubs, grizzly males will kill grizzly cubs. Biologists don't understand the behavior.
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    catefrances wrote:
    children need guidance. they need love and they need nurturing.

    as for not doing others harm. i dont see the point. it leads to nothing. it's a power trip and i don't dig on that kind of power.

    There are physically violent sports in our society, boxing, football, etc.
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    Do know of any instances of chimpanzee killing chimpanzee? Dolphin killing dolphin? Whale killing whale?

    yes i do. as i have stated previously i have seen chimpanzees steal a baby from its mother and kill it as she screamed for its return. i have seen orcas kill a grey whale. though orcas are dolphins, not whales. i have heard that some species of dolphin will kill an interloper if it is a juvenile. male bears kill baby bears all the time.
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    There are physically violent sports in our society, boxing, football, etc.

    yes there are and i see those sports as war in microcosm. socially acceptable outlets for violence.
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    catefrances wrote:
    children need guidance. they need love and they need nurturing.

    as for not doing others harm. i dont see the point. it leads to nothing. it's a power trip and i don't dig on that kind of power.
    i don't think you understood me though. if i see a child who needs "guidance" "love" and "nurturing" but I say, "ah, what the hell, it ain't my problem." is there any wrong in me doing that?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    i don't think you understood me though. if i see a child who needs "guidance" "love" and "nurturing" but I say, "ah, what the hell, it ain't my problem." is there any wrong in me doing that?

    not in your eyes.
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    catefrances wrote:
    yes i do. as i have stated previously i have seen chimpanzees steal a baby from its mother and kill it as she screamed for its return. i have seen orcas kill a grey whale. though orcas are dolphins, not whales. i have heard that some species of dolphin will kill an interloper if it is a juvenile. male bears kill baby bears all the time.

    And this is an explanation of "naturalness" to you?
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  • deadnothingbetterdeadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    catefrances wrote:
    not in your eyes.
    lol.... well, i have my own interpretations of course. so it's not like i would do such a thing. i know it's wrong if i saw a child who was seriously in need and ignore the situation. i would do the best i could to help the child.

    but answer my question. how do you interpret that as wrong?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    lol.... well, i have my own interpretations of course. so it's not like i would do such a thing. i know it's wrong if i saw a child who was seriously in need and ignore the situation. i would do the best i could to help the child.

    but answer my question. how do you interpret that as wrong?

    because as a mother i nurture my children. i see how i feel about 'your' reaction to the child as an extension of that.
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