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11 Arguments Against Theism

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
This is a really good collection of arguments discussed with a few people on this radio show. Sorry it's an mp3 audio file. I couldn't find a transcript of it. But give it a listen, they are really good arguments.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/infidelguy/4-11-07-Round_Table_3.mp3
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ok, I know some of you can't get it to play, so I'm typing some of it out, great arguments, but it's going to take me a while.

    Here is number 1
    Richard Spencer (Faith and Freethought) wrote:
    Any discussion about the existence of God, must begin with a clear definition of the word God. For my purposes tonight I have in mind an eternal being who is all powerful, all-knowing, morally perfect, who created us and takes special interest in us, a being who created and transcends the universe, yet remains imenent in it.

    Now admittably, no one can prove or disprove God's existence with 100% certainty. However, my method for this discussion is simple, because a hypothesis that offers the best explanation for the widest range of evidence, is more likely true than other competing hypotheses, what we need to do is contrast the two competing hypotheses before us, that God exists and that God does not exist. And determine which hypothesis better explains the available evidence, then using that information, we can come to the most reasonable view possible and should accept it as our own.

    I will now offer 11 lines of evidence that are better explained by atheism, than by theism, in support of the hypothesis that God does not exist...

    Number 1; Atheism offers the best explanation for the physical forces that cause natural disasters.

    In december 2004, on the day after Christmas, an earthquake in the indian ocean created a tsunami that killed approximately a quarter of a million people. Then less than a year later, in august of 2005, hurricane Katrina killed almost 200 more people in New Orleans.

    What are the explanations for these events?

    We can't blame man's free-will for natural disasters, because God could have created the world without the forces that cause natural disasters without ever hindering our free-will. And man's free-will isn't the cause of natural disasters anyway. Unless of course, ancient people and the christian coalition are right and natural disasters are God's way of punishing sinners. But if God is just, then this explanation makes no sense at all, even if a few guilty parties were killed by Katrina or the Tsunami, considering all the otherwise innocent people who died also. That would be like God sentencing a man to death by firing squad then placing him in the middle of a group of children and shooting at him with a shotgun from 20 ft away. Don't you think God would have the ability to punish sin with a little more precision? Surely if God exists, the death and devastation caused by natural disasters is absolutely baffling.

    However, if atheism is true, such natural disasters are no less tragic, but at least we can explain them. They are the products of mindless forces like plate tectonics and tropical weather systems, operating in a universe blind and indifferent to our struggle for survival. Thus physical forces that cause natural disasters are evidence for atheism and against theism.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Number 2; unjustifiable pain and suffering
    Richard Spencer (Faith and Freethought) wrote:
    Number 2; atheism offers the best explanation for the presence of unjustified pain and suffering in the world.

    Let me be clear; I do not mean to imply that God cannot allow some pain and suffering if he exists, since it would be possible for an all loving God to allow pain that we can learn from, like that felt after touching a hot stove, or even pain that can lead to a greater good, like that felt after a root canal. In these cases, pain is justifiable. Instead my claim is that there is no way for a morally perfect God to allow unjustifiable suffering, like pain that teaches nothing and leads to no greater good, seems to be. For example, consider the severe pain felt by most people suffering from advanced cancer, there is no conceivable justification for it, they are going to die anyway. As caring, compassionate human beings, we do all we can to ease their suffering with the limited means available to us. But if God exists, then he is even more caring and compassionate than we are and has an even greater ability to alleviate pain than we do. Since we cannot be morally superior to God, we would expect God to also do something to alleviate the entirely uneccisary pain of cancer victims, but he doesn't. Yet as even theists admit, if God exists, the gratuitus pain and suffering can not. There must be some ultimate justification, but God hasn't shared it with us and those speaking on his behalf haven't figure it out yet.

    In contrast; if atheism is true, we have an explanation. The sensation of pain evolved naturally as our body's way of warning us when something is wrong. But since evolution is not an intelligent process, it never figured out a way to turn the pain off when there is no more need of warning. Thus since only atheism is compatible with unjustifiable pain and suffering and because it appears that unjustifiable pain and suffering exists. The existence of unjustified suffering in the world is evidence for atheism and against theism.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Ahh...only really simple minds believe that they can explain God (or the absence of) using human knowledge and experience.

    You sure seem fixated on this subject. What are you afraid of? And what benefit do you derive from trying to convince people that there is no God to believe in?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    know1 wrote:
    Ahh...only really simple minds believe that they can explain God (or the absence of) using human knowledge and experience.

    You sure seem fixated on this subject. What are you afraid of? And what benefit do you derive from trying to convince people that there is no God to believe in?

    I want to influence the way the world is perceived through individual minds.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    You spend more time proselytizing against religion as some of the fundamentalist do for it. What is in it for you to convince people that you are right?

    My only real issue with religious people is when they try to influence how I should live or what I should believe... you are doing the same thing on the other end of the spectrum.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I want to influence the way the world is perceived through individual minds.

    Why is not a good thing (in your mind) for people to believe in God? What harm does it do them? I understand that an argument would be to point to the amount of violence that has been propagated in the name of one God or another, but then why wouldn't you just focus on eliminating the violence aspect of their faith?

    Again, using human logic to disprove (or at least cast doubt upon) the existence of God is just foolish.

    I have a question. What percentage of the entire volume of possible knowledge that exists in the universe would you say that humans possess? It's my opinion that the amount of things we could learn about the universe is infinite, so human knowledge doesn't even register on a scale that grand.

    It's something like - but much greater than - a 7 year old child exclaiming that he doesn't understand Einstein's theory of relativity so therefore it must not be true.

    Or a crime scene investigator being given less than .01% of the evidence and being asked to solve the case.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Meh. Atheism vs Christian God interests me little, as I'm not in either camp really. And from the looks of it, there is an assumption that science = atheism, which I dont really accept. Science in general avoid god-explanations true, but the nature and method of science does not automatically translate as atheism.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    this one's for you, ryan..................:)

    http://www.atheistnation.net/news/?atheist/article,00064
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    know1 wrote:
    Why is not a good thing (in your mind) for people to believe in God? What harm does it do them? I understand that an argument would be to point to the amount of violence that has been propagated in the name of one God or another, but then why wouldn't you just focus on eliminating the violence aspect of their faith?

    Again, using human logic to disprove (or at least cast doubt upon) the existence of God is just foolish.

    I have a question. What percentage of the entire volume of possible knowledge that exists in the universe would you say that humans possess? It's my opinion that the amount of things we could learn about the universe is infinite, so human knowledge doesn't even register on a scale that grand.

    It's something like - but much greater than - a 7 year old child exclaiming that he doesn't understand Einstein's theory of relativity so therefore it must not be true.

    Or a crime scene investigator being given less than .01% of the evidence and being asked to solve the case.

    There is no evidence of a moral universe or constructs like good and evil. Yet this is the lense through which 85% of Americans view their surroundings. It is not realistic. Such absence of realism, also provides an absence of understanding and one only perceives the outcome of their choices as entirely good if they are unaware of the consequences.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Number 2; unjustifiable pain and suffering

    one of the best answers to this question is called "the problem of pain" by CS lewis. If you want a well thought out answer to the dilemma of pain, I suggest you check it out.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    maybe you should just give the outlines/main point rather than transcribing the whole thing. i cant read that much until finals are over :)
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    soulsinging wrote:
    maybe you should just give the outlines/main point rather than transcribing the whole thing. i cant read that much until finals are over :)

    Heh, it actually takes me 15 times longer to transcribe it than it takes to just listen to it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Heh, it actually takes me 15 times longer to transcribe it than it takes to just listen to it.

    i dont have the attention span to listen, so i guess im out :)
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Well, boil it down to 15 headlines then. That'll give us an idea about what it's on about.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Well, boil it down to 15 headlines then. That'll give us an idea about what it's on about.

    Peace
    Dan

    Can't do right now, my typing is severely impaired, because I chopped part of my thumb off just a while ago.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I want to influence the way the world is perceived through individual minds.
    Than work on becoming a great thinker, not a great rejurgator.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    surferdude wrote:
    Than work on becoming a great thinker, not a great rejurgator.

    I am a great thinker :p
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Can't do right now, my typing is severely impaired, because I chopped part of my thumb off just a while ago.

    no you didnt. you had nothing to do with it. the sum total of your life experiences and your brain chopped it off. you had no role in it and you don't really exist anyway except in your imagination. ;)
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    soulsinging wrote:
    no you didnt. you had nothing to do with it. the sum total of your life experiences and your brain chopped it off. you had no role in it and you don't really exist anyway except in your imagination. ;)

    'I' do exist as the sum of my determinants.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Ahnimus wrote:
    There is no evidence of a moral universe or constructs like good and evil. Yet this is the lense through which 85% of Americans view their surroundings. It is not realistic. Such absence of realism, also provides an absence of understanding and one only perceives the outcome of their choices as entirely good if they are unaware of the consequences.

    In other words, you have no response for the post that you quoted and have decided to embark on a tangent.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    There is no evidence of a moral universe or constructs like good and evil. Yet this is the lense through which 85% of Americans view their surroundings. It is not realistic. Such absence of realism, also provides an absence of understanding and one only perceives the outcome of their choices as entirely good if they are unaware of the consequences


    how is a moral universe defined?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    know1 wrote:
    In other words, you have no response for the post that you quoted and have decided to embark on a tangent.

    Huh?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    how is a moral universe defined?

    Well God would be a moral universe. I'm sorry, I don't understand how you don't understand what I mean. A universe with morals.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well God would be a moral universe. I'm sorry, I don't understand how you don't understand what I mean. A universe with morals.


    a universe with morals? i'm sorry i don't understand your misunderstanding ahnimus. :p the universe as it is, does not have a morality. it is humans who construct those morals. should you not have described it as a moral human existence? and where exactly did you define what a moral universe was in the first place?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    a universe with morals? i'm sorry i don't understand your misunderstanding ahnimus. :p the universe as it is, does not have a morality. it is humans who construct those morals. should you not have described it as a moral human existence? and where exactly did you define what a moral universe was in the first place?

    I didn't come up with it. It's in the Bible. God.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I didn't come up with it. It's in the Bible. God.

    so this moral universe is based upon the word of a nonexistant God for whom faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of which is not seen?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    so this moral universe is based upon the word of a nonexistant God for whom faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of which is not seen?

    Exactly
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Huh?

    That's what I said when you didn't address any of the points I made.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    know1 wrote:
    That's what I said when you didn't address any of the points I made.
    I didn't see any points, sorry ♦♣♠•◘○☺☻♥
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I didn't see any points, sorry ♦♣♠•◘○☺☻♥

    That explains a lot, right there...
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
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