Prostitution

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  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    mammasan wrote:
    I have no problem when a woman states that our patriarchal society objectifies women because that statement is true. My problem was the statement that women are oppressed in our society which is clearly not the case. Women, in our society, are not oppressed and all you have to do is look at how women are treated in other countries, some Middle Eastern countries come to mind, and you will se what true oppression is. Women in this country have the same rights and freedoms as men and while they are treated differently, which is unacceptable, it does not even come remotely close to being oppression. To me it is insulting to even state that when true oppression, of women, exists in other countries

    It's interesting to trivialize the experiences of Group A because you think that acknowleding their experience is trivializing to the experiences of Group B. Why can't everyone's experience be valid?

    No one is saying that American women are more oppressed than women in Africa... or even equally oppressed.

    But yours seems to be a kind of all-or-none approach. It's like saying, although I'm beat up regularly by my boyfriend, that doesn't count as valid/abusive/oppressive because some other women are killed by their boyfriends.

    See what I'm saying?
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Wilds wrote:
    Does the prostitute (man or woman) objectify the "John"?

    Probably, to a certain extent. Although, I think it's probably debatable, especially considering that's it's the John who has the power in this dynamic.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    the thing with oppression as it pertains to north american culture is that it exists in a multitude of levels - there is race oppression, class oppression, sexuality, etc ... much of it is intertwined ...

    it's not to advocate that one concept of opppression justifies another ... just simply that the prevalance of it makes it hard to pinpoint strictly a sole victim ...

    having said that - if any female wants to objectify my body - it'll cost you $10 and a box of choc. chip cookies ... be the best 7 minutes of your life ... :)
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    scb wrote:
    It's interesting to trivialize the experiences of Group A because you think that acknowleding their experience is trivializing to the experiences of Group B. Why can't everyone's experience be valid?

    No one is saying that American women are more oppressed than women in Africa... or even equally oppressed.

    But yours seems to be a kind of all-or-none approach. It's like saying, although I'm beat up regularly by my boyfriend, that doesn't count as valid/abusive/oppressive because some other women are killed by their boyfriends.

    See what I'm saying?

    I'm not saying that the experiences of inequality or discrimination by women in this country are not valid simply because other women have it far worse in other places. I definitely believe that women in this country should fight for equal rights, equal pay and that we should stop objectifying women. All I'm stating is that I don not equate that to oppression. I'm sorry that you and VG are having such a hard time understanding this but that is the way i see it.

    Also your example is just horrible.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    mammasan wrote:
    Here is the definition of oppression from the Merriem-Webster dictionary:

    OPPRESSION – unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power.

    Now, maybe it's just me, but I have yet to see the unjust or CRUEL exercise of authority or power over women in our society. Is their inequality, definitely. Is there unjust, definitely.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but does "or" not mean that both characteristics need not be present? And did you not just say that one of them is present? I'm pretty sure you just proved yourself wrong.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    scb wrote:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but does "or" not mean that both characteristics need not be present? And did you not just say that one of them is present? I'm pretty sure you just proved yourself wrong.

    Look if it puts a smile on your face and makes your day your right and I'm wrong. Women are oppressed, men are oppressed, we are all oppressed for some reason or another. God what miserable oppressed lives we all lead.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    unifiedscene wrote:
    I'm going to answer this anyway.

    Yes.

    So what?

    I'm just refuting his suggestion that prostitution is not intrinsically related to objectification.
    unifiedscene wrote:
    When you own a business and you pay your worker based on the number of cars parts they make in a day, you're doing the same thing. ANY society based on money objectifies people by putting a dollar figure on their value to the buyer. I see nothing inherently wrong with this, unless it is so ingrained to the point of psychopathy (serial killers... all humans are just to be used). But most people acknowledge each other's humanity but still say "look, I need your help/services and I'm willing to pay this for it" and I don't think that is inherently wrong.

    For one thing, studies have shown that the objectification of women is a contributing factor to violence against women. (No, I don't have time to go did up the studies, but I read them in college when I did research on this subject.)

    Secondly, I tend to agree with Immanuel Kant, who said something like, "Always act so as to treat others as an end in themselves, not merely as a means to an end." We could debate exactly what that means, but that would probably stray too far from the topic.
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    scb wrote:
    I think this is an excellent point... although, in the end, I disagree. It's an excellent point because it illustrates what people are likely thinking when they get defensive. Like I've said before, they hear the words oppression, objectification, patriarchy, etc. and feel like they are being accused of participating in an active conspiracy to harm people.

    Except you don't know what they are thinking. What you believe they are 'likely thinking' can be far from the truth. And what you consider defensive isn't always defensive but just disagreement.
    Do you think the millions of people (men & women) who participate in these societies do so because they have an active hatred of women, an active intent to harm and oppress women? Or is this, to them, just a normal, acceptable way of structuring society?

    If it's just a normal way of life and there is no conscious, intentional malice, does that mean these women are not oppressed?

    Good point.
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  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    mammasan wrote:
    And that is your opinion. To me the use of the word oppression is disingenuous. It is a mockery of what true oppression women in other countries face. To hear a women in this country, who can go to college, have a career, vote, own property, have the same freedoms and liberties as there male counterparts use that term is ridiculous. They have no idea what it is like to live in a truly oppressive society. Hence my overboard comment to Allison (VG) about female genital mutilation, etc...

    Interesting to me that you think you can judge the life experiences of people about whose lives you know nothing. I'd be careful there....
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    scb wrote:
    Interesting to me that you think you can judge the life experiences of people about whose lives you know nothing. I'd be careful there....

    If you are telling me that I can't do that then you my friend are oppressing me.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    How else would the sex workers, who you just legalized, make any money?

    The same way they make it now, just more safely?
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Collin wrote:
    In a way, yes. But, I agree with mammasan oppression isn't the right word, imo.

    By its definition men are oppressed as well. Do you agree with that? I don't. I'd say there are injustices and inequalities.

    Wait - aren't you the one who's always saying men ARE oppressed as well, and talking about sexism against men, etc.??
    Collin wrote:
    Could you answer this question for me, I asked it a few posts ago.

    Patience, my friend, I'm falling behind on this thread...
    Collin wrote:
    Are women so oppressed in the Western society that it is through inequal pay and employment discrimination that they are pushed or forced into a more lucrative business?

    Are you asking me if women become prostitutes solely because they get paid less than men and are restricted by a "glass ceiling"? No, I don't think it's all about that. I think it's much more complicated than that.
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    scb wrote:
    The same way they make it now, just more safely?

    How could it be done more sefely, if one party involved is still breaking the law? If that is the case then in order to actually make money for a prostitute, business would have to be done in a shady, hidden way to keep their clients from being arrested (which is what I think violent people use to their advantage now). Now if both parties are doing something legal it can be done "out in the open" as it were, and safety of everyone can be easily monitored.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    decides2dream wrote:
    fyi - legalizing prostituion in no way guarantees health insurance, condoms, STD tests, living wages, etc. about all i see guaranteed is some police protection and the HOPE of many of those things. i mean seriously, there are PLENTY of currently legal professions right now without health insurance or truly livable wages, etc. just sayin'.

    Yeah, of course I'm unfortunately well aware of this. But we have to legalize it before we can really regulate it, no?
  • Wilds
    Wilds Posts: 4,329
    scb wrote:
    Probably, to a certain extent. Although, I think it's probably debatable, especially considering that's it's the John who has the power in this dynamic.

    I don't understand how the "john" has the power? It is not a boss/underling relationship.

    It is two consenting adults making a proper transaction.

    When you(female) go and get a massage at a spa, does the (female) client have the power over the masseur(female)? (for example)

    I don't see how there is a power angle? please clarify?

    We are not talking about rape here, just casual, for payment sex.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    mammasan wrote:
    I'm not saying that the experiences of inequality or discrimination by women in this country are not valid simply because other women have it far worse in other places. I definitely believe that women in this country should fight for equal rights, equal pay and that we should stop objectifying women. All I'm stating is that I don not equate that to oppression. I'm sorry that you and VG are having such a hard time understanding this but that is the way i see it.

    I'm not having a hard time understaning you, I'm just behind on the thread. :o
    mammasan wrote:
    Also your example is just horrible.

    I agree... it's horribly analogous to your example.
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    polaris wrote:
    the thing with oppression as it pertains to north american culture is that it exists in a multitude of levels - there is race oppression, class oppression, sexuality, etc ... much of it is intertwined ...

    it's not to advocate that one concept of opppression justifies another ... just simply that the prevalance of it makes it hard to pinpoint strictly a sole victim ...

    having said that - if any female wants to objectify my body - it'll cost you $10 and a box of choc. chip cookies ... be the best 7 minutes of your life ... :)

    i'm a huge advocate of the theory of interlocking oppressions. the problem with that and this thread is that i don't have the time to write a dissertation on it, which is why it may look like i'm only a believer that women are oppressed.

    oppression and inequality aren't exactly the same thing. oppression includes the element of power over another. i'm not saying this to you polaris, but addressing other things in the thread. so white, middle or upper class men can hardly be oppressed in situations in which they have the racial, economic, and gender power advantage.

    oh and scb if you read this, i think of anyone here you can probably speak for me. you haven't misconstrued anything i've said. :)
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Collin wrote:
    Except you don't know what they are thinking. What you believe they are 'likely thinking' can be far from the truth. And what you consider defensive isn't always defensive but just disagreement.

    Of course I don't know exactly what everyone is thinking. But he was telling me how some people feel and I was conceding that it sounded reasonable. It sounds reasonable to me given the conversations that roughly go like this:

    A: "Patriarchy, objectification, and oppression are problems."

    Z: "Hey! Stop calling me a misogynist pig!"

    Collin wrote:
    Good point.

    Gee, thanks! :D;)
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    mammasan wrote:
    If you are telling me that I can't do that then you my friend are oppressing me.

    I'm just saying you don't have any knowledge of how intact my clitoris is.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    How could it be done more sefely, if one party involved is still breaking the law? If that is the case then in order to actually make money for a prostitute, business would have to be done in a shady, hidden way to keep their clients from being arrested (which is what I think violent people use to their advantage now). Now if both parties are doing something legal it can be done "out in the open" as it were, and safety of everyone can be easily monitored.

    Hey, man, I already said I haven't really thought this part through...

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