Abortion ultrasound-viewing advances in S.C.

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Comments

  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    Jeanie wrote:
    My objection is at the constant levelling of accusation at the woman in these situations. When clearly she does not get pregnant on her own.

    But the decision to keep or kill their child remains hers and hers alone. A father has no choice whatsoever. He will be forced to pay for a child even if he does not want it, and forced to deal with the loss of his child even if he does.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Trau wrote:
    But the decision to keep or kill their child remains hers and hers alone. A father has no choice whatsoever. He will be forced to pay for a child even if he does not want it, and forced to deal with the loss of his child even if he does.


    well that's what happens when the pregnancy occurs inside of the woman's body. get over it.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    Then I guess I should be able to opt out of child support.

    And you obviously didn't understand the context in which I made the remarks that I did.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    cornnifer wrote:
    i don't disagree. i think we need to stress "TRUTHFULLY". The inability to feel pain or absence of any self realization is at least somewhat speculative, however. Besides, i think the ability to see with ones own eyes the developing fetus could potentially have much more impact on someone's decision than would any speculative reassurance that "it isn't going to feel it anyway". THAT is what opponets to the Bill are afraid of, i think. i'm not quite sure i understand the tendency of some here to scream about "choice" while insisting on limiting a womens ability to make an truly, and fully INFORMED "choice". Once again i reference "Citizen Ruth".

    the problem is far too many of these people paying lip service to this being about "informed choice" are the same people trying to keep contraception information out of schools and promoting abstinence only sex ed which does not work and is fraught with inaccuracy and misinformation. thus, it's very hard for any of us on the other side of that divide to take them for their word at anything. it damages their credibility by revealing that their "informed choice" rhetoric is nothing more than a nice way of dressing up a very particular religious view on sexuality in order to to make it more palatable to the general public who are unaware of the full and disastrous implications of their agenda. it is the same way "intelligent design" is just fancy window dressing for a biblical creation myth to be brought into classrooms.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Trau wrote:
    Then I guess I should be able to opt out of child support.

    And you obviously didn't understand the context in which I made the remarks that I did.

    and obviously you dont understand that at the very core of feminism is the demand that they get to have their cake and eat it too ;)
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body. you can rationale it all you like. the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME. it's not about having our cake and eating it too. it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies. no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.

    Jeanie wrote:
    Of course, because so many of these pregnancies are immaculate conceptions!!

    jeanie, the immaculate conception was not a virgin birth. the two concepts are totally separate. :)
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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body. you can rationale it all you like. the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME. it's not about having our cake and eating it too. it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies. no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.

    Women said the same thing about birth, men can never know how painful it is to give birth. Then it came out that kidney stones actually hurt a lot more, and men can give birth to kidney stones.

    While I agree with you that it is ultimately a woman's choice. I think women should know the full process of prenatal development. Perhaps mandating exposure to ultra-sounds is a bit much, but I do realize that many women are unaware of the developments within their bodies.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    jeanie, the immaculate conception was not a virgin birth. the two concepts are totally separate. :)

    Virgin birth is highly improbable and the virgin birth of a male is impossible.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    catefrances wrote:
    heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body. you can rationale it all you like. the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME. it's not about having our cake and eating it too. it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies. no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.

    yes, but you also get the final say for the next 18 years of the guy's life too. he cannot opt out of child support if he doesn't want the baby. it IS having your cake and eating it too becos you're saying it's not solely woman's responsibility becos a man has to contribute to a pregnancy, but you're then going on to say it IS solely her responsibility. how come there is this magical window... where it's his sperm, then nothing of his at all only her body, then magically it's half his again? that's kinda weird.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Virgin birth is highly improbable and the virgin birth of a male is impossible.

    jesus was a male.
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    catefrances wrote:
    jesus was a male.

    i think he meant by a male.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    soulsinging wrote:
    i think he meant by a male.

    possibly. but what we say and what we mean should be the same thing don't you reckon?
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  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    In addition to the fact that the right's idea of "full disclosure" is anything but full, I also object to women (or anyone else) being forced to submit to unwanted medical procedures. As of today, abortion is legal women do indeed have the right to make private medical decisions. It is a blatant violation of a woman's right to be secure in her person to mandate that she submit to unwanted procedures in order to exercise that right.

    If and when the Supreme Court overrules Roe, that will be a whole different ballgame. In the meantime, it is wrong to require a person to surrender one of their constitutional rights in order to exercise another.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    jesus was a male.

    I know, which is why he couldn't have been born from a virgin, unless God artificially inseminated Mary with a Y chromosome.

    See, the process is called parthenogenesis and with our X/Y make-up it's impossible for a female to pass a Y chromosome to a child, because women only have X chromosomes.

    In some other species the system is different and it is possible for a hemaphrodite to produce male offspring by herself, but not in humans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    soulsinging wrote:
    and obviously you dont understand that at the very core of feminism is the demand that they get to have their cake and eat it too ;)

    Too true! ;)
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    catefrances wrote:
    heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body.

    But there is already a precedent for this in society. We can tell you what to do with your body regarding alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and a number of other things.

    And what has led you to the conclusion that the majority of pro-lifers are men?
    the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME.

    See above. Society does it everyday.
    it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies.

    At the expense of another person's life?
    no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.

    What does this have to do with anything at all? All human life is either valuable or it is not. A person's experiences don't change that.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Trau wrote:
    But there is already a precedent for this in society. We can tell you what to do with your body regarding alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and a number of other things.
    We are not telling you what to do with your body. We are telling you what you can and can't do with alcohol, drugs and cigarettes. With a pregnancy, there are no external objects involved, nothing to regulate outside of the woman herself.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    soulsinging wrote:
    yes, but you also get the final say for the next 18 years of the guy's life too. he cannot opt out of child support if he doesn't want the baby. it IS having your cake and eating it too becos you're saying it's not solely woman's responsibility becos a man has to contribute to a pregnancy, but you're then going on to say it IS solely her responsibility. how come there is this magical window... where it's his sperm, then nothing of his at all only her body, then magically it's half his again? that's kinda weird.

    i'm talking abortion conor. i'm not talking child support or shafting some guy for the next 18 years. you are getting ahead of yourself.
    as a male you have the opportunity not to contribute. if you feel so strongly about not wanting to be held over a barrel for the next 18 years you can opt to abstain from sex or jack off in the privacy of your own home. but when you choose to have sex with a woman then what you give is no longer wholly yours. it becomes hers. it grows in her body. you know the risks involved. it's a bit like driving over the speed limit isn't it? sometimes accidents happens. and these accidents require hard decisions. you can't force woman to bring a pregnancy to term against her will. a women's responsibilty is to herself, no one else. if she feels she can not cope for whatever reason then we should support her in that. we should offer her all the counselling she requires. show her all the options available. we should not validate her reasoning by seeking out the male perspective, we should take her at her word. no one knows someone better than they know themselves.
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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    The law on abortion in the United States should be clarified.

    The state does not have the right to restrict abortion with any of the following criteria

    • First trimester

    • To protect the woman's life

    • Physical Health

    • Mental Health

    • Rape

    • Fetal Defects

    • Socio-Economic Factors

    Besides that it's up to the state. I'm pretty sure this is accurate.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Women said the same thing about birth, men can never know how painful it is to give birth. Then it came out that kidney stones actually hurt a lot more, and men can give birth to kidney stones.

    physical pain is different ahnimus. and yes there is a pain worse then childbirth. but just for the record, how big are these kidney stones?
    hear my name
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