But the decision to keep or kill their child remains hers and hers alone. A father has no choice whatsoever. He will be forced to pay for a child even if he does not want it, and forced to deal with the loss of his child even if he does.
Oh poor, poor fellow!! Why on earth would he want to be having sex with such mercenary, murderous women then anyway? And the traumas of financial obligation must be sooo psychologically damaging for the poor fellow!! My heart bleeds for him!
OH THAT'S RIGHT!!!! It's ALL about MEN getting off and getting away with it completely obligation free!!! AND controlling women's bodies.
Ah the EVILS of women! They're a disgrace really!!
So anyway, anybody else, any other government got any other medical procedure that they decree I should subject my body to based on their inane and completely offensive judgements and the fact that I'm a woman?
This is starting to sound like the Taliban at work!
So much misogany so little time!!
It's REALLY fucking simple!! If you are a man and you object to abortion then DO NOT have unprotected sex with viable sperm in your body!!
There's your choice right there!
Perhaps we should decree that all men of sexual maturity have an unecessary scan and make them observe the sanctity of their swimmers before they can have unprotected sex.
OH AND FOR THE BACK ROW THAT SEEM TO FIND IT SOOOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND abortion is not a woman KILLING her CHILD.
Oh poor, poor fellow!! Why on earth would he want to be having sex with such mercenary, murderous women then anyway?
I'm sorry, I didn't understand that we great and oppressive men were possessed of the foresight to know which women will have an abortion should they become pregnant.
And the traumas of financial obligation must be sooo psychologically damaging for the poor fellow!! My heart bleeds for him!
When psycholgical damage come into it? If he does not want it, why should he have to pay, when on the other side of the issue, the woman can decide to kill it against his wishes? All rights belong to her. That's not equality.
Also: Nine months versus eighteen years of something one doesn't want.
OH THAT'S RIGHT!!!! It's ALL about MEN getting off and getting away with it completely obligation free!!! AND controlling women's bodies.
I'm sorry you cannot see beyond this simplification, but it really isn't about that at all. I do not believe that a man should be able opt out of child support, but I also do not believe that a woman should be allowed to abort her child.
The way would have it, however, is entirely unequal. You mentioned psychological trauma--what about the trauma sustained by a man who wishes to keep their child, but she decides to get rid of it?
It's REALLY fucking simple!! If you are a man and you object to abortion then DO NOT have unprotected sex with viable sperm in your body!!
There's your choice right there!
I agree! And if women don't want to get pregnant, they should not be having sex, either. I love how you leave all responsibility at the feet of the man.
I think you are a very good example of how feminism no longer has anything to do with equality. I offer the term "equalism" for those of us who want true equality rather than preferences for men or women.
OH AND FOR THE BACK ROW THAT SEEM TO FIND IT SOOOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND abortion is not a woman KILLING her CHILD.
Then what is it?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Some theists will suggest that God him/herself implanted the Y chromosome, which would constitute a true miracle, defying the laws of nature. I suggest then that theist archaeologists should not try to naturally explain other so-called miracles from the bible. Ultimately they cannot naturally explain the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, unless it was in-fact Judith Christ.
i wasn't attacking you ryan. i was merely asking a question.
I know
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
And are we expecting the run away Dads to view these images too?
Perhaps it might encourage a few of them to participate in more than just blowing their loads and buggering off?
This kind of vile, emotional blackmail will do nothing more than bring a few more truly unwanted pregnancies to term and increase the suffering of both mother and child. Great going!! NOT!!!
Wow! I have not hear "NOT" used in a while. Since the Ten album I think...anywho.....I agree with you. I think it is total blackmail. I know that if I was in a position to chose an abortion....b/c it is not all about a form of birthcontrol. I mean my god there are girls inpregnanted by rape or incest, and that would just add insult to injury, literaly. Could you imagine being a 17 year old making this choice, then having to see your unborn child. I am 27 and think it would wreck my life, despite what decision I was making.
I'm sorry, I didn't understand that we great and oppressive men were possessed of the foresight to know which women will have an abortion should they become pregnant.
Are you going to attempt to tell me that we are not living in a patriachial society? And that the majority of oppressed in the world in this day and age are not women and children? It may not sound very pleasant but I think you'll find that it is the case.
Men can't know which women will have an abortion should they become pregnant, just as they can't know which women will carry a pregnancy to term. A woman can't know that at the point of intercourse either with complete clarity. It goes back to men having to make the choice at the time of conception. To ask the questions then or protect themselves from contributing DNA. Really Trau that is the man's time to choose.
When psycholgical damage come into it? If he does not want it, why should he have to pay, when on the other side of the issue, the woman can decide to kill it against his wishes? All rights belong to her. That's not equality.
Also: Nine months versus eighteen years of something one doesn't want.
I agree that if he doesn't want it he shouldn't have to pay for it for the rest of the childs life if the woman continues with the pregnancy against his wishes. And I do believe that the man's wishes absolutely need to be considered when the decision to continue the pregnancy or abort is being decided. But firstly, I believe the laws about fathers paying for their children were enacted to provide for the child. And the mother will also have to do this over the child's life. The only way a man gets to really choose in this situation is to make the choice for himself at the point of intercourse. To protect himself against the possibility that the next few minutes of pleasure could be very costly in the long run and perhaps the best choice is to abstain, have the conversation about pregnancy/termination at that point or put on a heavy duty condom. And the rights after conception belong to her because men don't get pregnant. She has the right to decide what happens to her body. It's basic science and the facts of life as they stand and as it won't be changing any time soon then that is up to the man to recognize where his choice comes into it and exercise it, just as is the case for women.
I'm sorry you cannot see beyond this simplification, but it really isn't about that at all. I do not believe that a man should be able opt out of child support, but I also do not believe that a woman should be allowed to abort her child.
The way would have it, however, is entirely unequal. You mentioned psychological trauma--what about the trauma sustained by a man who wishes to keep their child, but she decides to get rid of it?
Well if it's not about controlling women's bodies, controlling women, then why do men care about it so much? Why so many laws inacted? Why keep going over it? Why do men (and some women) still want the right to legislate that women grow cells inside them that they do not want inside them? Because as we've said, the solution is simple. We all have choices about our bodies. And we should all have the right to decide what happens to our bodies. The choices just come into the equation at different times.
And I have EVERY sympathy for men who suffer this trauma. It is a very sad situation.
I agree! And if women don't want to get pregnant, they should not be having sex, either. I love how you leave all responsibility at the feet of the man.
I think you are a very good example of how feminism no longer has anything to do with equality. I offer the term "equalism" for those of us who want true equality rather than preferences for men or women.
I'm not leaving ALL responsibility at the feet of man, please refer to the above statements about patriachal society.
And please do not assume that I'm a feminist. Not that that is a bad thing to be. I wish we had true equality. All people. Men, women and children.
Oh, and as far as I'm concerned we should all be making more love and less hate, we just need to make responsible choices to attempt to ensure that these situations do not occur. BUT SHOULD THEY OCCUR ANYWAY? Ultimately it's the woman's body and her right to decide what happens to it.
Just as it is the man's body and he ultimately has the right to decide where he leaves his sperm. This is not new information. We all need to remember it.
And back to the subject at hand, being as that IS my belief, then ultrasounding woman unecessarily is a violation of a women's right to decide what happens to her body and should not be state sanctioned. If the government was sanctioning unecissary and manditory procedures for men I would be equally outraged and against it.
Refer to ahnimus about the developmental stages of a pregnancy from conception to birth. Women killing their children requires a child not a cell cluster.
Wow! I have not hear "NOT" used in a while. Since the Ten album I think...anywho.....I agree with you. I think it is total blackmail. I know that if I was in a position to chose an abortion....b/c it is not all about a form of birthcontrol. I mean my god there are girls inpregnanted by rape or incest, and that would just add insult to injury, literaly. Could you imagine being a 17 year old making this choice, then having to see your unborn child. I am 27 and think it would wreck my life, despite what decision I was making.
Are you going to attempt to tell me that we are not living in a patriachial society? .
I can't speak for all parts of the world but in America and Canada we sure don't live in patriachial societies. Women make more than half the voting population, in a democratic society we live in the society that women want. Women have all the power in the numbers. Don't blame men if you choose not to use it wisely.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Well if it's not about controlling women's bodies, controlling women, then why do men care about it so much? Why so many laws inacted? Why keep going over it? Why do men (and some women) still want the right to legislate that women grow cells inside them that they do not want inside them?
Refer to ahnimus about the developmental stages of a pregnancy from conception to birth. Women killing their children requires a child not a cell cluster.
i think mainly becos there are a lot of people who believe a fetus is alive at the moment of conception. which is the classic chicken or egg question.
I can't speak for all parts of the world but in America and Canada we sure don't live in patriachial societies. Women make more than half the voting population, in a democratic society we live in the society that women want. Women have all the power in the numbers. Don't blame men if you choose not to use it wisely.
You know what? I've been searching the web for over an hour now to try to find gender ratios for things like wealth distribution, crime rates, human rights abuses, political power, and the like. And it occured to me that it's Saturday, and any link I post is most likely going to be ignored anyway, so why would I bother? If you look, you will find.
I'm not BLAMING men for anything. I simply said that we live in a patriarchial society. If you could look past the surface you would see that.
It's not about blame it's about acknowledgement. BUT I forget this is the Train. We don't do acknowlegement here. It's all about being advesorial.
i think mainly becos there are a lot of people who believe a fetus is alive at the moment of conception. which is the classic chicken or egg question.
Well it is living tissue, clearly. But it cannot sustain life on it's own without the incubator. And I believe that the "incubator" should have the right to choose. Chickens?? Eggs??? Oh hell ss don't get em started on that old chestnut!!
I can't speak for all parts of the world but in America and Canada we sure don't live in patriachial societies. Women make more than half the voting population, in a democratic society we live in the society that women want. Women have all the power in the numbers. Don't blame men if you choose not to use it wisely.
LMAO. you have to be kidding. the western world is run by men. there is no denying that. we do indeed live in a patriarchal society.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Men can't know which women will have an abortion should they become pregnant, just as they can't know which women will carry a pregnancy to term. A woman can't know that at the point of intercourse either with complete clarity. It goes back to men having to make the choice at the time of conception. To ask the questions then or protect themselves from contributing DNA. Really Trau that is the man's time to choose.
If neither of them don't want to end up with a pregnancy on their hands, then neither of them should be having sex. An abortion is not necessary to avoid having a child. All you have to do is not have sex.
The only way a man gets to really choose in this situation is to make the choice for himself at the point of intercourse. To protect himself against the possibility that the next few minutes of pleasure could be very costly in the long run and perhaps the best choice is to abstain, have the conversation about pregnancy/termination at that point or put on a heavy duty condom.
Women have the same choices. Therefore, abortion should even come into play if you never have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
And the rights after conception belong to her because men don't get pregnant.
But I thought both parents shared equal responsibility... Do you consider a father's attachment to his child to be less than a mother's?
She has the right to decide what happens to her body.
Why does she also have the right to decide what happens to her child in that way? Killing for convenience.
Well if it's not about controlling women's bodies, controlling women, then why do men care about it so much?
Why do you act like more men are pro-life than women? What has led you to this conclusion? I'm afraid that you are woefully ignorant to believe that. I can't imagine this hasn't been brought to your attention a thousand times, but the early feminists felt abortion was a terrible crime against women.
Men and women care about this issue because we believe that abortion is the killing of completely innocent human life, and that everyone should have a chance to live.
And I have EVERY sympathy for men who suffer this trauma. It is a very sad situation.
But not sad enough, right?
Ultimately it's the woman's body and her right to decide what happens to it.
But it's not just her body anymore.
Refer to ahnimus about the developmental stages of a pregnancy from conception to birth. Women killing their children requires a child not a cell cluster.
You can try to dehumanize unborn children all you like, but that won't change the fact that that "cluster of cells" is precisely what a human being is at that stage of its life. What makes a baby for you? Some superficial quality like appearance? Who are you to decide when a human being isn't a human being, and therefore should not even have the right to continue to exist?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Judging from the above post, Trau I'm assuming you're a virgin? Don't have sex to avoid pregnancy. That's a very basic solution to a very complex issue. I bet if you tell your kids that (oh wait, you're a virgin) they'll definitely take that on board and abstain.
1998 Brisbane night 2
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*DISCLAIMER* I suck at typing, sorry for the illegibility of posts
Abortion ultrasound-viewing advances in S.C.
Senate, governor expected to OK measure with rape, incest exemptions
COLUMBIA, S.C. - With calls of emotional blackmail from opponents, a measure requiring women seeking abortions to first review ultrasound images of their fetuses advanced Wednesday in the South Carolina Legislature.
The legislation, supported by Republican Gov. Mark Sanford, passed 91-23 after lawmakers defeated amendments exempting rape or incest. The House must approve the bill again in a routine vote before it goes to the Senate, where its sponsor expects it to pass with those exemptions.
Some states make ultrasound images available to women before an abortion, but South Carolina would be alone in requiring women to view the pictures.
Critics consider the proposal a tool to intimidate women who already have made an agonizing decision.
"You love them in the womb but once they get here, it's a different story," said Rep. Gilda Cobb-Hunter, a Democrat and a social worker. "You're sitting here passing judgment? Who gave you the right?"
Proponents hope women will change their minds after seeing an ultrasound.
Rep. Alan Clemmons, choking back tears as he talked about his two adopted children, recalled a prayer given by his 11-year-old daughter.
"She thanked her God, her father in heaven for her birth mother for loving her enough to give her life," said Clemmons, a Republican. "I thank my God for those young mothers who chose to give them life."
The state's three abortion clinics already perform ultrasounds, paid for by the woman seeking the procedure, to determine the fetus' age. The state's informed-consent law, passed in 1994, requires abortion doctors to tell women at least an hour before the operation the likely age of their fetus and give them information about fetal development and alternatives to abortion.
Miscarriage is a biological form of abortion. So does that mean that 'God' thinks its okay?
First, I'm against this law. In case that wasn't clear.
Second, my statement is entirely truthful. I see both welfare and abortion and morally reprehensible. However, I think of welfare as less morally reprehensible, so I'd rather be forced to pay for it than be forced to pay for abortions. The actual costs aren't relevant.
It's like saying executing criminals in a courtroom would be better than putting them in jail because it's theoretically cheaper. I find both executions and prisons morally reprehensible, but I'd take the prisons, even if they're more expensive.
I'm not sure I understand your example of both prisons vs. execution. But whatever your side of the fence is on that one, it means we're dealing with people already on this earth. If someone is a pedophile, murderer, or rapist then I'm fine to pay for their jail (or execution, depending on the crime and jury's verdict) because I could be affected by their behavior. It's an example to other people who are tempted to commit a crime. It's a necessary evil.
On the other hand, if a woman doesn't want a child in South Carolina, I'm not affected by her choice. I don't think people should pay to encourage her to have a child she doesn't want. It's not that I'm cold hearted, I'm involved in numerous charities, but again, it's a ridiculous and expensive bill. Put the money into education for the kids that are already here. If a woman is unsure and wants to see what a child looks like at her stage of pregnancy, then show her a damn picture. If she wants the abortion then give her the abortion.
"Where there is sacrifice there is someone collecting the sacrificial offerings."-- Ayn Rand
"Some of my friends sit around every evening and they worry about the times ahead,
But everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference and the promise of an early bed..."-- Elvis Costello
Judging from the above post, Trau I'm assuming you're a virgin? Don't have sex to avoid pregnancy. That's a very basic solution to a very complex issue. I bet if you tell your kids that (oh wait, you're a virgin) they'll definitely take that on board and abstain.
you realize, of course, that you're sarcastically saying that abstaining won't work while simultaneously ripping someone for being a virgin....
When psycholgical damage come into it? If he does not want it, why should he have to pay, when on the other side of the issue, the woman can decide to kill it against his wishes? All rights belong to her. That's not equality.
actually it is equality. men currently have the right to make their own medical decisions regarding their own bodies. when have you seen women forcing men to have or not have medical procedures? with legal abortion, women have the right to make medical decisions regarding their own bodies. so when the pregnancy is inside of the woman's body, yeah that's that "window" where she makes the ultimate call on what happens to her body.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I'm not sure I understand your example of both prisons vs. execution. But whatever your side of the fence is on that one, it means we're dealing with people already on this earth. If someone is a pedophile, murderer, or rapist then I'm fine to pay for their jail (or execution, depending on the crime and jury's verdict) because I could be affected by their behavior. It's an example to other people who are tempted to commit a crime. It's a necessary evil.
On the other hand, if a woman doesn't want a child in South Carolina, I'm not affected by her choice. I don't think people should pay to encourage her to have a child she doesn't want. It's not that I'm cold hearted, I'm involved in numerous charities, but again, it's a ridiculous and expensive bill. Put the money into education for the kids that are already here. If a woman is unsure and wants to see what a child looks like at her stage of pregnancy, then show her a damn picture. If she wants the abortion then give her the abortion.
I think what FFG is saying is that if he were ever faced with the fact that his loved one had had an abortion, he's going to make her wish she were dead, or in prison.
I'm not sure I understand your example of both prisons vs. execution. But whatever your side of the fence is on that one, it means we're dealing with people already on this earth. If someone is a pedophile, murderer, or rapist then I'm fine to pay for their jail (or execution, depending on the crime and jury's verdict) because I could be affected by their behavior. It's an example to other people who are tempted to commit a crime. It's a necessary evil.
I don't believe in necessary evils.
On the other hand, if a woman doesn't want a child in South Carolina, I'm not affected by her choice. I don't think people should pay to encourage her to have a child she doesn't want. It's not that I'm cold hearted, I'm involved in numerous charities, but again, it's a ridiculous and expensive bill. Put the money into education for the kids that are already here. If a woman is unsure and wants to see what a child looks like at her stage of pregnancy, then show her a damn picture. If she wants the abortion then give her the abortion.
I don't think people should pay for it either. I think you're missing that I'm opposed to this law. I'm also opposed, however, to other people having to pay for abortions.
I think what FFG is saying is that if he were ever faced with the fact that his loved one had had an abortion, he's going to make her wish she were dead, or in prison.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I certainly believe women should have the choice to abort, despite the fact that I think it's a poor choice.
For the record, if my loved one was considering abortion, I would offer to shoulder any responsibility associated with the child that I could in order to prevent that abortion. But the choice would ultimately be hers, and I'd accept and support whatever decision she made. Understand?
That's not what I'm saying at all. I certainly believe women should have the choice to abort, despite the fact that I think it's a poor choice.
For the record, if my loved one was considering abortion, I would offer to shoulder any responsibility associated with the child that I could in order to prevent that abortion. But the choice would ultimately be hers, and I'd accept and support whatever decision she made. Understand?
So what was all that prison and execution talk?
This is a topic on women's health and you brought that into the picture...not me or anyone else, so what's for me to understand?
It's just an example of two situations that I am forced to subsidize, both whom I find morally reprehensible. Would you prefer it if I chose Social Security and Hospice instead?
This is a topic on women's health and you brought that into the picture...not me or anyone else, so what's for me to understand?
Quite a bit, apparently. It's not that I'm equating prisons and women's health. I'm simply equating being forced to subsidize both.
It's just an example of two situations that I am forced to subsidize, both whom I find morally reprehensible. Would you prefer it if I chose Social Security and Hospice instead?
I'm not here to make, or pretend to make choices for you.
I'm not here to make, or pretend to make choices for you.
Ok. But you are here to speak for me?
"I think what FFG is saying is that if he were ever faced with the fact that his loved one had had an abortion, he's going to make her wish she were dead, or in prison." -qb
You equated nothing.
Of course I did:
"I see both welfare and abortion and morally reprehensible. However, I think of welfare as less morally reprehensible, so I'd rather be forced to pay for it than be forced to pay for abortions. The actual costs aren't relevant.
It's like saying executing criminals in a courtroom would be better than putting them in jail because it's theoretically cheaper. I find both executions and prisons morally reprehensible, but I'd take the prisons, even if they're more expensive." -FFG
actually it is equality. men currently have the right to make their own medical decisions regarding their own bodies.
Abortion is not a medical procedure. And it's not just regarding their own bodies.
with legal abortion, women have the right to make medical decisions regarding their own bodies. so when the pregnancy is inside of the woman's body, yeah that's that "window" where she makes the ultimate call on what happens to her body.
She had the opportunity to make that decision before she had sex. The utter selfishness of saying, "this child will inconvenience me, so therefore my right to convenience trumps its right to exist," is astonishing.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
"I think what FFG is saying is that if he were ever faced with the fact that his loved one had had an abortion, he's going to make her wish she were dead, or in prison." -qb
"I see both welfare and abortion and morally reprehensible. However, I think of welfare as less morally reprehensible, so I'd rather be forced to pay for it than be forced to pay for abortions. The actual costs aren't relevant.
It's like saying executing criminals in a courtroom would be better than putting them in jail because it's theoretically cheaper. I find both executions and prisons morally reprehensible, but I'd take the prisons, even if they're more expensive." -FFG
Women's health really has nothing to do with you, so for you to bring in "morally reprehensible, "jail", "prisons", "courtrooms", "executions" and then conclude with "i'd take the prisons"...tells me much about your view on women, and their health.
Comments
Oh poor, poor fellow!! Why on earth would he want to be having sex with such mercenary, murderous women then anyway? And the traumas of financial obligation must be sooo psychologically damaging for the poor fellow!! My heart bleeds for him!
OH THAT'S RIGHT!!!! It's ALL about MEN getting off and getting away with it completely obligation free!!! AND controlling women's bodies.
Ah the EVILS of women! They're a disgrace really!!
So anyway, anybody else, any other government got any other medical procedure that they decree I should subject my body to based on their inane and completely offensive judgements and the fact that I'm a woman?
This is starting to sound like the Taliban at work!
So much misogany so little time!!
It's REALLY fucking simple!! If you are a man and you object to abortion then DO NOT have unprotected sex with viable sperm in your body!!
There's your choice right there!
Perhaps we should decree that all men of sexual maturity have an unecessary scan and make them observe the sanctity of their swimmers before they can have unprotected sex.
OH AND FOR THE BACK ROW THAT SEEM TO FIND IT SOOOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND abortion is not a woman KILLING her CHILD.
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The currents will shift
I'm sorry, I didn't understand that we great and oppressive men were possessed of the foresight to know which women will have an abortion should they become pregnant.
When psycholgical damage come into it? If he does not want it, why should he have to pay, when on the other side of the issue, the woman can decide to kill it against his wishes? All rights belong to her. That's not equality.
Also: Nine months versus eighteen years of something one doesn't want.
I'm sorry you cannot see beyond this simplification, but it really isn't about that at all. I do not believe that a man should be able opt out of child support, but I also do not believe that a woman should be allowed to abort her child.
The way would have it, however, is entirely unequal. You mentioned psychological trauma--what about the trauma sustained by a man who wishes to keep their child, but she decides to get rid of it?
I agree! And if women don't want to get pregnant, they should not be having sex, either. I love how you leave all responsibility at the feet of the man.
I think you are a very good example of how feminism no longer has anything to do with equality. I offer the term "equalism" for those of us who want true equality rather than preferences for men or women.
Then what is it?
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Some theists will suggest that God him/herself implanted the Y chromosome, which would constitute a true miracle, defying the laws of nature. I suggest then that theist archaeologists should not try to naturally explain other so-called miracles from the bible. Ultimately they cannot naturally explain the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, unless it was in-fact Judith Christ.
I know
Wow! I have not hear "NOT" used in a while. Since the Ten album I think...anywho.....I agree with you. I think it is total blackmail. I know that if I was in a position to chose an abortion....b/c it is not all about a form of birthcontrol. I mean my god there are girls inpregnanted by rape or incest, and that would just add insult to injury, literaly. Could you imagine being a 17 year old making this choice, then having to see your unborn child. I am 27 and think it would wreck my life, despite what decision I was making.
Are you going to attempt to tell me that we are not living in a patriachial society? And that the majority of oppressed in the world in this day and age are not women and children? It may not sound very pleasant but I think you'll find that it is the case.
Men can't know which women will have an abortion should they become pregnant, just as they can't know which women will carry a pregnancy to term. A woman can't know that at the point of intercourse either with complete clarity. It goes back to men having to make the choice at the time of conception. To ask the questions then or protect themselves from contributing DNA. Really Trau that is the man's time to choose.
I agree that if he doesn't want it he shouldn't have to pay for it for the rest of the childs life if the woman continues with the pregnancy against his wishes. And I do believe that the man's wishes absolutely need to be considered when the decision to continue the pregnancy or abort is being decided. But firstly, I believe the laws about fathers paying for their children were enacted to provide for the child. And the mother will also have to do this over the child's life. The only way a man gets to really choose in this situation is to make the choice for himself at the point of intercourse. To protect himself against the possibility that the next few minutes of pleasure could be very costly in the long run and perhaps the best choice is to abstain, have the conversation about pregnancy/termination at that point or put on a heavy duty condom. And the rights after conception belong to her because men don't get pregnant. She has the right to decide what happens to her body. It's basic science and the facts of life as they stand and as it won't be changing any time soon then that is up to the man to recognize where his choice comes into it and exercise it, just as is the case for women.
Well if it's not about controlling women's bodies, controlling women, then why do men care about it so much? Why so many laws inacted? Why keep going over it? Why do men (and some women) still want the right to legislate that women grow cells inside them that they do not want inside them? Because as we've said, the solution is simple. We all have choices about our bodies. And we should all have the right to decide what happens to our bodies. The choices just come into the equation at different times.
And I have EVERY sympathy for men who suffer this trauma. It is a very sad situation.
I'm not leaving ALL responsibility at the feet of man, please refer to the above statements about patriachal society.
And please do not assume that I'm a feminist. Not that that is a bad thing to be. I wish we had true equality. All people. Men, women and children.
Oh, and as far as I'm concerned we should all be making more love and less hate, we just need to make responsible choices to attempt to ensure that these situations do not occur. BUT SHOULD THEY OCCUR ANYWAY? Ultimately it's the woman's body and her right to decide what happens to it.
Just as it is the man's body and he ultimately has the right to decide where he leaves his sperm. This is not new information. We all need to remember it.
And back to the subject at hand, being as that IS my belief, then ultrasounding woman unecessarily is a violation of a women's right to decide what happens to her body and should not be state sanctioned. If the government was sanctioning unecissary and manditory procedures for men I would be equally outraged and against it.
Refer to ahnimus about the developmental stages of a pregnancy from conception to birth. Women killing their children requires a child not a cell cluster.
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Exactly!
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cell clusters don't have brains, eyelids, and fingers
not a link to a gross photo
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
It's not a child either.
Thanks for link though and for thoughtfully indicating it's content. Much appreciated.
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i think mainly becos there are a lot of people who believe a fetus is alive at the moment of conception. which is the classic chicken or egg question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ratio
You know what? I've been searching the web for over an hour now to try to find gender ratios for things like wealth distribution, crime rates, human rights abuses, political power, and the like. And it occured to me that it's Saturday, and any link I post is most likely going to be ignored anyway, so why would I bother? If you look, you will find.
I'm not BLAMING men for anything. I simply said that we live in a patriarchial society. If you could look past the surface you would see that.
It's not about blame it's about acknowledgement. BUT I forget this is the Train. We don't do acknowlegement here. It's all about being advesorial.
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Well it is living tissue, clearly. But it cannot sustain life on it's own without the incubator. And I believe that the "incubator" should have the right to choose.
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take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
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Look out cate!! You'll be labelled a rampant, lesbian feminist along with me!
"Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
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If neither of them don't want to end up with a pregnancy on their hands, then neither of them should be having sex. An abortion is not necessary to avoid having a child. All you have to do is not have sex.
Women have the same choices. Therefore, abortion should even come into play if you never have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
But I thought both parents shared equal responsibility... Do you consider a father's attachment to his child to be less than a mother's?
Why does she also have the right to decide what happens to her child in that way? Killing for convenience.
Why do you act like more men are pro-life than women? What has led you to this conclusion? I'm afraid that you are woefully ignorant to believe that. I can't imagine this hasn't been brought to your attention a thousand times, but the early feminists felt abortion was a terrible crime against women.
Men and women care about this issue because we believe that abortion is the killing of completely innocent human life, and that everyone should have a chance to live.
But not sad enough, right?
But it's not just her body anymore.
You can try to dehumanize unborn children all you like, but that won't change the fact that that "cluster of cells" is precisely what a human being is at that stage of its life. What makes a baby for you? Some superficial quality like appearance? Who are you to decide when a human being isn't a human being, and therefore should not even have the right to continue to exist?
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Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Don't be afraid, afraid to try
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Miscarriage is a biological form of abortion. So does that mean that 'God' thinks its okay?
I'm not sure I understand your example of both prisons vs. execution. But whatever your side of the fence is on that one, it means we're dealing with people already on this earth. If someone is a pedophile, murderer, or rapist then I'm fine to pay for their jail (or execution, depending on the crime and jury's verdict) because I could be affected by their behavior. It's an example to other people who are tempted to commit a crime. It's a necessary evil.
On the other hand, if a woman doesn't want a child in South Carolina, I'm not affected by her choice. I don't think people should pay to encourage her to have a child she doesn't want. It's not that I'm cold hearted, I'm involved in numerous charities, but again, it's a ridiculous and expensive bill. Put the money into education for the kids that are already here. If a woman is unsure and wants to see what a child looks like at her stage of pregnancy, then show her a damn picture. If she wants the abortion then give her the abortion.
"Some of my friends sit around every evening and they worry about the times ahead,
But everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference and the promise of an early bed..."-- Elvis Costello
you realize, of course, that you're sarcastically saying that abstaining won't work while simultaneously ripping someone for being a virgin....
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
the chicken.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
actually it is equality. men currently have the right to make their own medical decisions regarding their own bodies. when have you seen women forcing men to have or not have medical procedures? with legal abortion, women have the right to make medical decisions regarding their own bodies. so when the pregnancy is inside of the woman's body, yeah that's that "window" where she makes the ultimate call on what happens to her body.
cross the river to the eastside
I think what FFG is saying is that if he were ever faced with the fact that his loved one had had an abortion, he's going to make her wish she were dead, or in prison.
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I don't believe in necessary evils.
I don't think people should pay for it either. I think you're missing that I'm opposed to this law. I'm also opposed, however, to other people having to pay for abortions.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I certainly believe women should have the choice to abort, despite the fact that I think it's a poor choice.
For the record, if my loved one was considering abortion, I would offer to shoulder any responsibility associated with the child that I could in order to prevent that abortion. But the choice would ultimately be hers, and I'd accept and support whatever decision she made. Understand?
So what was all that prison and execution talk?
This is a topic on women's health and you brought that into the picture...not me or anyone else, so what's for me to understand?
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It's just an example of two situations that I am forced to subsidize, both whom I find morally reprehensible. Would you prefer it if I chose Social Security and Hospice instead?
Quite a bit, apparently. It's not that I'm equating prisons and women's health. I'm simply equating being forced to subsidize both.
You equated nothing.
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Ok. But you are here to speak for me?
"I think what FFG is saying is that if he were ever faced with the fact that his loved one had had an abortion, he's going to make her wish she were dead, or in prison." -qb
Of course I did:
"I see both welfare and abortion and morally reprehensible. However, I think of welfare as less morally reprehensible, so I'd rather be forced to pay for it than be forced to pay for abortions. The actual costs aren't relevant.
It's like saying executing criminals in a courtroom would be better than putting them in jail because it's theoretically cheaper. I find both executions and prisons morally reprehensible, but I'd take the prisons, even if they're more expensive." -FFG
Abortion is not a medical procedure. And it's not just regarding their own bodies.
She had the opportunity to make that decision before she had sex. The utter selfishness of saying, "this child will inconvenience me, so therefore my right to convenience trumps its right to exist," is astonishing.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
"I think." And I do.
Women's health really has nothing to do with you, so for you to bring in "morally reprehensible, "jail", "prisons", "courtrooms", "executions" and then conclude with "i'd take the prisons"...tells me much about your view on women, and their health.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
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