My objection is at the constant levelling of accusation at the woman in these situations. When clearly she does not get pregnant on her own.
But the decision to keep or kill their child remains hers and hers alone. A father has no choice whatsoever. He will be forced to pay for a child even if he does not want it, and forced to deal with the loss of his child even if he does.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
But the decision to keep or kill their child remains hers and hers alone. A father has no choice whatsoever. He will be forced to pay for a child even if he does not want it, and forced to deal with the loss of his child even if he does.
well that's what happens when the pregnancy occurs inside of the woman's body. get over it.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Then I guess I should be able to opt out of child support.
And you obviously didn't understand the context in which I made the remarks that I did.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
i don't disagree. i think we need to stress "TRUTHFULLY". The inability to feel pain or absence of any self realization is at least somewhat speculative, however. Besides, i think the ability to see with ones own eyes the developing fetus could potentially have much more impact on someone's decision than would any speculative reassurance that "it isn't going to feel it anyway". THAT is what opponets to the Bill are afraid of, i think. i'm not quite sure i understand the tendency of some here to scream about "choice" while insisting on limiting a womens ability to make an truly, and fully INFORMED "choice". Once again i reference "Citizen Ruth".
the problem is far too many of these people paying lip service to this being about "informed choice" are the same people trying to keep contraception information out of schools and promoting abstinence only sex ed which does not work and is fraught with inaccuracy and misinformation. thus, it's very hard for any of us on the other side of that divide to take them for their word at anything. it damages their credibility by revealing that their "informed choice" rhetoric is nothing more than a nice way of dressing up a very particular religious view on sexuality in order to to make it more palatable to the general public who are unaware of the full and disastrous implications of their agenda. it is the same way "intelligent design" is just fancy window dressing for a biblical creation myth to be brought into classrooms.
heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body. you can rationale it all you like. the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME. it's not about having our cake and eating it too. it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies. no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.
heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body. you can rationale it all you like. the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME. it's not about having our cake and eating it too. it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies. no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.
Women said the same thing about birth, men can never know how painful it is to give birth. Then it came out that kidney stones actually hurt a lot more, and men can give birth to kidney stones.
While I agree with you that it is ultimately a woman's choice. I think women should know the full process of prenatal development. Perhaps mandating exposure to ultra-sounds is a bit much, but I do realize that many women are unaware of the developments within their bodies.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
jeanie, the immaculate conception was not a virgin birth. the two concepts are totally separate.
Virgin birth is highly improbable and the virgin birth of a male is impossible.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body. you can rationale it all you like. the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME. it's not about having our cake and eating it too. it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies. no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.
yes, but you also get the final say for the next 18 years of the guy's life too. he cannot opt out of child support if he doesn't want the baby. it IS having your cake and eating it too becos you're saying it's not solely woman's responsibility becos a man has to contribute to a pregnancy, but you're then going on to say it IS solely her responsibility. how come there is this magical window... where it's his sperm, then nothing of his at all only her body, then magically it's half his again? that's kinda weird.
In addition to the fact that the right's idea of "full disclosure" is anything but full, I also object to women (or anyone else) being forced to submit to unwanted medical procedures. As of today, abortion is legal women do indeed have the right to make private medical decisions. It is a blatant violation of a woman's right to be secure in her person to mandate that she submit to unwanted procedures in order to exercise that right.
If and when the Supreme Court overrules Roe, that will be a whole different ballgame. In the meantime, it is wrong to require a person to surrender one of their constitutional rights in order to exercise another.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I know, which is why he couldn't have been born from a virgin, unless God artificially inseminated Mary with a Y chromosome.
See, the process is called parthenogenesis and with our X/Y make-up it's impossible for a female to pass a Y chromosome to a child, because women only have X chromosomes.
In some other species the system is different and it is possible for a hemaphrodite to produce male offspring by herself, but not in humans.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
and obviously you dont understand that at the very core of feminism is the demand that they get to have their cake and eat it too
Too true!
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
heres the thing guys. it's my body. i get the final say. i don't watch a bunch of do gooders, the majority of which are men, telling me what i can do with MY body.
But there is already a precedent for this in society. We can tell you what to do with your body regarding alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and a number of other things.
And what has led you to the conclusion that the majority of pro-lifers are men?
the bottom line is YOU don't get a say in what I think is best FOR ME.
See above. Society does it everyday.
it's about having dominion over OUR own bodies.
At the expense of another person's life?
no matter how sympathetic you think you can be, you don't know what it is like to carry that life inside you. you can never know what it feels like to make that decision. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW.
What does this have to do with anything at all? All human life is either valuable or it is not. A person's experiences don't change that.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
But there is already a precedent for this in society. We can tell you what to do with your body regarding alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and a number of other things.
We are not telling you what to do with your body. We are telling you what you can and can't do with alcohol, drugs and cigarettes. With a pregnancy, there are no external objects involved, nothing to regulate outside of the woman herself.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
yes, but you also get the final say for the next 18 years of the guy's life too. he cannot opt out of child support if he doesn't want the baby. it IS having your cake and eating it too becos you're saying it's not solely woman's responsibility becos a man has to contribute to a pregnancy, but you're then going on to say it IS solely her responsibility. how come there is this magical window... where it's his sperm, then nothing of his at all only her body, then magically it's half his again? that's kinda weird.
i'm talking abortion conor. i'm not talking child support or shafting some guy for the next 18 years. you are getting ahead of yourself.
as a male you have the opportunity not to contribute. if you feel so strongly about not wanting to be held over a barrel for the next 18 years you can opt to abstain from sex or jack off in the privacy of your own home. but when you choose to have sex with a woman then what you give is no longer wholly yours. it becomes hers. it grows in her body. you know the risks involved. it's a bit like driving over the speed limit isn't it? sometimes accidents happens. and these accidents require hard decisions. you can't force woman to bring a pregnancy to term against her will. a women's responsibilty is to herself, no one else. if she feels she can not cope for whatever reason then we should support her in that. we should offer her all the counselling she requires. show her all the options available. we should not validate her reasoning by seeking out the male perspective, we should take her at her word. no one knows someone better than they know themselves.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The law on abortion in the United States should be clarified.
The state does not have the right to restrict abortion with any of the following criteria
• First trimester
• To protect the woman's life
• Physical Health
• Mental Health
• Rape
• Fetal Defects
• Socio-Economic Factors
Besides that it's up to the state. I'm pretty sure this is accurate.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Women said the same thing about birth, men can never know how painful it is to give birth. Then it came out that kidney stones actually hurt a lot more, and men can give birth to kidney stones.
physical pain is different ahnimus. and yes there is a pain worse then childbirth. but just for the record, how big are these kidney stones?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i'm talking abortion conor. i'm not talking child support or shafting some guy for the next 18 years. you are getting ahead of yourself.
as a male you have the opportunity not to contribute. if you feel so strongly about not wanting to be held over a barrel for the next 18 years you can opt to abstain from sex or jack off in the privacy of your own home. but when you choose to have sex with a woman then what you give is no longer wholly yours. it becomes hers. it grows in her body. you know the risks involved. it's a bit like driving over the speed limit isn't it? sometimes accidents happens. and these accidents require hard decisions. you can't force woman to bring a pregnancy to term against her will. a women's responsibilty is to herself, no one else. if she feels she can not cope for whatever reason then we should support her in that. we should offer her all the counselling she requires. show her all the options available. we should not validate her reasoning by seeking out the male perspective, we should take her at her word. no one knows someone better than they know themselves.
if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant and not be held over a barrel for 18 years she has the option not to have sex too. men and women are equal in responsibility before sex, and equal afterwards. it seems kinda weird that there is a window in the middle where men have no rights and women hold all the cards.
at the same time, i support legal abortion and dont think there is really a better way to handle things. im just saying it's not so ideologically clear as people want it to seem.
physically pain is different ahnimus. and yes there is a pain worse then childbirth. but just for the record, how big are these kidney stones?
Statements implying that it's all about the degree of pain just go to show how impossible it is to comprehend the experience of birth without actually going through it
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
We are not telling you what to do with your body. We are telling you what you can and can't do with alcohol, drugs and cigarettes. With a pregnancy, there are no external objects involved, nothing to regulate outside of the woman herself.
Then why is it illegal to be under the influence rather than only in possession of certain things?
Society has also decided that it is not acceptable for you to harm yourself without substances. What of that?
The precedent is there.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Statements implying that it's all about the degree of pain just go to show how impossible it is to comprehend the experience of birth without actually going through it
What did Carol Burnett say, "it's like taking your lower lip and forcing it over your head."
Then why is it illegal to be under the influence rather than only in possession of certain things?
Society has also decided that it is not acceptable for you to harm yourself without substances. What of that?
The precedent is there.
Drug laws are ridiculous, you'll get no argument from me on that one. Laws regarding alcohol and tobacco are in a different category. We regulate smoking in public places because it affects others. We say that you can't drive under the influence because it affects others. You're perfectly free to smoke and drink yourself to death as long as you don't bother anyone else.
And I know what you're going to say, which brings this argument around to where it always winds up, and which is the seemingly irreconcilable problem.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
What did Carol Burnett say, "it's like taking your lower lip and forcing it over your head."
It's like that, lol, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. It's all-consuming, your entire mental, physical and emotional self is completely taken over by the experience. I'd have to write many pages to even begin to describe it. I doubt it can be done, not completely.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Then why is it illegal to be under the influence rather than only in possession of certain things?
Society has also decided that it is not acceptable for you to harm yourself without substances. What of that?
The precedent is there.
I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at in the second part of your post, but if you're comparing "harming" yourself to having an abortion, it doesn't stand up. Idelogical/moral objections aside, an abortion is a medical procedure.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
physical pain is different ahnimus. and yes there is a pain worse then childbirth. but just for the record, how big are these kidney stones?
It doesn't matter how big they are, they are coming out a tiny hole. So relatively speaking, they are massive.
BTW did you see my explanation of why jesus' virgin birth was impossible?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant and not be held over a barrel for 18 years she has the option not to have sex too. men and women are equal in responsibility before sex, and equal afterwards. it seems kinda weird that there is a window in the middle where men have no rights and women hold all the cards.
at the same time, i support legal abortion and dont think there is really a better way to handle things. im just saying it's not so ideologically clear as people want it to seem.
oh my god what is going on here? i am in agreement with you conor. yes women do have that option. however we also have other options. some apparently so abhorrant that there are people who'd rather women be handmaidens to the human race. what is more irresponsible, a woman who aborts an unwanted foetus or a woman who gives birth and neglects her child?
and yeah i guess it is anomalous that women have this control over something men can't ever really control. it sucks for you guys i know. but you know what, until men can procreate without a woman you gonna have to live with it.
*spelling edit.*:)
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
But the decision to keep or kill their child remains hers and hers alone. A father has no choice whatsoever. He will be forced to pay for a child even if he does not want it, and forced to deal with the loss of his child even if he does.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
well that's what happens when the pregnancy occurs inside of the woman's body. get over it.
cross the river to the eastside
And you obviously didn't understand the context in which I made the remarks that I did.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
the problem is far too many of these people paying lip service to this being about "informed choice" are the same people trying to keep contraception information out of schools and promoting abstinence only sex ed which does not work and is fraught with inaccuracy and misinformation. thus, it's very hard for any of us on the other side of that divide to take them for their word at anything. it damages their credibility by revealing that their "informed choice" rhetoric is nothing more than a nice way of dressing up a very particular religious view on sexuality in order to to make it more palatable to the general public who are unaware of the full and disastrous implications of their agenda. it is the same way "intelligent design" is just fancy window dressing for a biblical creation myth to be brought into classrooms.
and obviously you dont understand that at the very core of feminism is the demand that they get to have their cake and eat it too
jeanie, the immaculate conception was not a virgin birth. the two concepts are totally separate.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Women said the same thing about birth, men can never know how painful it is to give birth. Then it came out that kidney stones actually hurt a lot more, and men can give birth to kidney stones.
While I agree with you that it is ultimately a woman's choice. I think women should know the full process of prenatal development. Perhaps mandating exposure to ultra-sounds is a bit much, but I do realize that many women are unaware of the developments within their bodies.
Virgin birth is highly improbable and the virgin birth of a male is impossible.
yes, but you also get the final say for the next 18 years of the guy's life too. he cannot opt out of child support if he doesn't want the baby. it IS having your cake and eating it too becos you're saying it's not solely woman's responsibility becos a man has to contribute to a pregnancy, but you're then going on to say it IS solely her responsibility. how come there is this magical window... where it's his sperm, then nothing of his at all only her body, then magically it's half his again? that's kinda weird.
jesus was a male.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i think he meant by a male.
possibly. but what we say and what we mean should be the same thing don't you reckon?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
If and when the Supreme Court overrules Roe, that will be a whole different ballgame. In the meantime, it is wrong to require a person to surrender one of their constitutional rights in order to exercise another.
I know, which is why he couldn't have been born from a virgin, unless God artificially inseminated Mary with a Y chromosome.
See, the process is called parthenogenesis and with our X/Y make-up it's impossible for a female to pass a Y chromosome to a child, because women only have X chromosomes.
In some other species the system is different and it is possible for a hemaphrodite to produce male offspring by herself, but not in humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis
Too true!
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
But there is already a precedent for this in society. We can tell you what to do with your body regarding alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and a number of other things.
And what has led you to the conclusion that the majority of pro-lifers are men?
See above. Society does it everyday.
At the expense of another person's life?
What does this have to do with anything at all? All human life is either valuable or it is not. A person's experiences don't change that.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
i'm talking abortion conor. i'm not talking child support or shafting some guy for the next 18 years. you are getting ahead of yourself.
as a male you have the opportunity not to contribute. if you feel so strongly about not wanting to be held over a barrel for the next 18 years you can opt to abstain from sex or jack off in the privacy of your own home. but when you choose to have sex with a woman then what you give is no longer wholly yours. it becomes hers. it grows in her body. you know the risks involved. it's a bit like driving over the speed limit isn't it? sometimes accidents happens. and these accidents require hard decisions. you can't force woman to bring a pregnancy to term against her will. a women's responsibilty is to herself, no one else. if she feels she can not cope for whatever reason then we should support her in that. we should offer her all the counselling she requires. show her all the options available. we should not validate her reasoning by seeking out the male perspective, we should take her at her word. no one knows someone better than they know themselves.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The state does not have the right to restrict abortion with any of the following criteria
• First trimester
• To protect the woman's life
• Physical Health
• Mental Health
• Rape
• Fetal Defects
• Socio-Economic Factors
Besides that it's up to the state. I'm pretty sure this is accurate.
physical pain is different ahnimus. and yes there is a pain worse then childbirth. but just for the record, how big are these kidney stones?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant and not be held over a barrel for 18 years she has the option not to have sex too. men and women are equal in responsibility before sex, and equal afterwards. it seems kinda weird that there is a window in the middle where men have no rights and women hold all the cards.
at the same time, i support legal abortion and dont think there is really a better way to handle things. im just saying it's not so ideologically clear as people want it to seem.
Then why is it illegal to be under the influence rather than only in possession of certain things?
Society has also decided that it is not acceptable for you to harm yourself without substances. What of that?
The precedent is there.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
What did Carol Burnett say, "it's like taking your lower lip and forcing it over your head."
And I know what you're going to say, which brings this argument around to where it always winds up, and which is the seemingly irreconcilable problem.
I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at in the second part of your post, but if you're comparing "harming" yourself to having an abortion, it doesn't stand up. Idelogical/moral objections aside, an abortion is a medical procedure.
It doesn't matter how big they are, they are coming out a tiny hole. So relatively speaking, they are massive.
BTW did you see my explanation of why jesus' virgin birth was impossible?
oh my god what is going on here? i am in agreement with you conor.
and yeah i guess it is anomalous that women have this control over something men can't ever really control. it sucks for you guys i know. but you know what, until men can procreate without a woman you gonna have to live with it.
*spelling edit.*:)
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
yes i did see your explanation.
i wasn't attacking you ryan. i was merely asking a question.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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