God vs Logic

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  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    cornnifer wrote:
    Instincts instilled in humans how? How does one randomly evolve a moral compass? Besides, it seems to me that, for survival, the natural instinct would be to look out foe ourselves first. To do what was needed to ensure MY survival. And for everyone else to do the same. If we're talking about logic here, i think you missed on this one.

    Because a broader scale of survival requires us to protect each other and learn to live with one another. If we ALL just looked out for ourselves chaos would ensue. Like Ahminus touched on, our instincts have evolved beyond this primitive, narrow minded urge to only look out for ones self. People now how the ability to reason while looking at the bigger picture.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Because a broader scale of survival requires us to protect each other and learn to live with one another. If we ALL just looked out for ourselves chaos would ensue. Like Ahminus touched on, our instincts have evolved beyond this primitive, narrow minded urge to only look out for ones self. People now how the ability to reason while looking at the bigger picture.

    You'll have to explain to me how, for example, charitable giving to the poor, is an example of an evolved, survival of the fittest, type behavior. It does nothing to ensure the survival of the species. It could be argued that it does just the opposite! By aiding in the survival of what could be determined the weaker, less fortunante members of the species, rather than ensuring the dominance of the stronger, it could be said that you actually hurt the chances of species survival by allowing the weak links to survive.
    You're doing nothing to demonstrate a coincidental development of a moral compass. A human ability to know right from wrong, and engage in the right despite any faith induced guilt, as some here have labeled it.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Ahnimus wrote:
    No more than 100 years ago people would spit in each others faces and urinate on their feet simply because they disagreed. Go back 3000 years and it's a lot different.

    And in today's society, there are some who would jast as soon shoot you in the face for the same simple reasons. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean they didn't know the that behavior was wrong. It simply means that, in all likelihood, they knew it was wrong, yet did it anyway. Those people then end up with A LOT of free time to think about it. If not, we consider them INSANE.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    cornnifer wrote:
    And in today's society, there are some who would jast as soon shoot you in the face for the same simple reasons. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean they didn't know the that behavior was wrong. It simply means that, in all likelihood, they knew it was wrong, yet did it anyway. Those people then end up with A LOT of free time to think about it. If not, we consider them INSANE.

    So, you think that we all have a devinely inspired right or wrong mechanism which some 'choose' to ignore and thus choose evil over good?

    Outside of this mythical mechanism there is absolutely nothing attributed to violence and suffering? It's a battle of good vs evil?

    That ultimately results in ignorance. Because it takes emphasis from what is really causing the problem. Usually poverty or some humanitarian crisis. It really has nothing to do with god, imo.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    cornnifer wrote:
    You'll have to explain to me how, for example, charitable giving to the poor, is an example of an evolved, survival of the fittest, type behavior. It does nothing to ensure the survival of the species. It could be argued that it does just the opposite! By aiding in the survival of what could be determined the weaker, less fortunante members of the species, rather than ensuring the dominance of the stronger, it could be said that you actually hurt the chances of species survival by allowing the weak links to survive.
    You're doing nothing to demonstrate a coincidental development of a moral compass. A human ability to know right from wrong, and engage in the right despite any faith induced guilt, as some here have labeled it.


    We are evolving beyond survival of the fittest, though it is a work in progress. It is evolving towards reducing conflict between the haves and have nots. These instincts guide us towards living in harmony because life can no longer flourish and advance with the primitive instinct of survival of the strongest. The weak have greater numbers and that puts the strong at a huge disadvantage. The weak will always revolt and chaos ensues. War and death...instability follow. Our species can only further advancement by striving towards harmony...ie 'the bigger picture'. The visionaries have evolved already and I believe if we are to continue on, this progress must catch on more widely.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Ahnimus wrote:
    So, you think that we all have a devinely inspired right or wrong mechanism which some 'choose' to ignore and thus choose evil over good?

    .

    Yes. I do. I thought i made that very clear.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    cornnifer wrote:
    And in today's society, there are some who would jast as soon shoot you in the face for the same simple reasons. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean they didn't know the that behavior was wrong. It simply means that, in all likelihood, they knew it was wrong, yet did it anyway. Those people then end up with A LOT of free time to think about it. If not, we consider them INSANE.

    Those people have not evolved yet. They only strive for their own survival, demonstrating limited ability to invision the future.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    cornnifer wrote:
    Yes. I do. I thought i made that very clear.

    So why would god have it that only some of his creations listen to him? To believe in an 'all knowing god' there can be no free will. So why create this apparent set up for conflict and suffering? Entertainment perhaps?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    We are evolving beyond survival of the fittest, though it is a work in progress. It is evolving towards reducing conflict between the haves and have nots. These instincts guide us towards living in harmony because life can no longer flourish and advance with the primitive instinct of survival of the strongest. The weak have greater numbers and that puts the strong at a huge disadvantage. The weak will always revolt and chaos ensues. War and death...instability follow. Our species can only further advancement by striving towards harmony...ie 'the bigger picture'. The visionaries have evolved already and I believe if we are to continue on, this progress must catch on more widely.
    So you are proposing that people are now evolving in a way that no other species has and that nature has never worked before. You propose that billions of years of evolution have been wrong and only provide an evolutionary dead-end, and that survival of the fittest has come or is coming to an evolutionary end. Interesting scientific proposal, would love to see where you have any examples to back this theory up.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    We are evolving beyond survival of the fittest, though it is a work in progress. It is evolving towards reducing conflict between the haves and have nots. These instincts guide us towards living in harmony because life can no longer flourish and advance with the primitive instinct of survival of the strongest. The weak have greater numbers and that puts the strong at a huge disadvantage. The weak will always revolt and chaos ensues. War and death...instability follow. Our species can only further advancement by striving towards harmony...ie 'the bigger picture'. The visionaries have evolved already and I believe if we are to continue on, this progress must catch on more widely.

    So you're saying that the reason people do good things (at least those without faith) is to pacify the less fortunate? To keep them from revolting and taking and redistributing all their shit? People only do good to prevent war that would ultimately be a bad thing for them and their children? People (again, those without faith) are only doing good things because of their own selfish ulterior motives? Because that would mean they really had no moral compass at all. It would imply that people without faith were really only trying to cover their own ass. Their good deeds are not really good deeds at all. Is that what you're saying? I'm not trying to paint you into a corner here. I'm just trying to understand. Am i misunderstanding? Or did you put metaphorical foot into metaphorical mouth?
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    cornnifer wrote:
    Yes. I do. I thought i made that very clear.

    Sick!

    Delusions of Grandiuer is what I would call that. Having a belief in something nearly impossible, highly improbable at best, is ok, but I don't think it's wise to use that to explain everything and thus ignore the real causes.

    Personally I think if we are to evolve beyond our current position we need to abolish that kind of thinking, it serves only to hinder our advances. Perhaps in the past believing in a higher power and applying that to our lives has worked. However, we are referring to principles thousands of years old, our modern technology and knowledge should be capable of developing better principles.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    cornnifer wrote:
    So you're saying that the reason people do good things (at least those without faith) is to pacify the less fortunate? To keep them from revolting and taking and redistributing all their shit? People only do good to prevent war that would ultimately be a bad thing for them and their children? People (again, those without faith) are only doing good things because of their own selfish ulterior motives? Because that would mean they really had no moral compass at all. It would imply that people without faith were really only trying to cover their own ass. Their good deeds are not really good deeds at all. Is that what you're saying? I'm not trying to paint you into a corner here. I'm just trying to understand. Am i misunderstanding? Or did you put metaphorical foot into metaphorical mouth?

    That has nothing to do with faith. What about that priest that supposedly killed that nun? What about the cases of priest pedophiles? Just because someone has faith doesn't mean anything. It just shows they are willing to bet against the odds. That's about it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    Ahnimus wrote:
    our modern technology and knowledge should be capable of developing better principles.
    Anyone who gets their principles from technology is a scary person and probably scary close to being compleetly amoral..
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Those people have not evolved yet. They only strive for their own survival, demonstrating limited ability to invision the future.

    So, you're saying that you and i are at a completely different level of evolution than the guy who knows its wrong to, lets say, steal candy from small children, yet does it anyway? We're completely different species? Sorry, but i have to file that one in the "completely ILlogical" folder.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    surferdude wrote:
    So you are proposing that people are now evolving in a way that no other species has and that nature has never worked before. You propose that billions of years of evolution have been wrong and only provide an evolutionary dead-end, and that survival of the fittest has come or is coming to an evolutionary end. Interesting scientific proposal, would love to see where you have any examples to back this theory up.

    Evolution has no right or wrong, only change given the environment we live in which is also constantly changing. Survival of the fittest is evolving to a broader survival. I can only look at around at the world today where survival of one's self rules the day to prove my point. War and instability are the products of this mindset. These are just my thoughts on the topic and I can only point to life as I see it to give you examples.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    surferdude wrote:
    Anyone who gets their principles from technology is a scary person and probably scary close to being compleetly amoral..

    If you are getting your principles from the Bible then you are a scary prejudice person.

    Watch: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8463073960287313294&q=bullshit+bible
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Just because someone has faith doesn't mean anything. It just shows they are willing to bet against the odds. That's about it.

    When did i ever say it did? I didn't. So now that i've brought you full circle, and you're back to simply referring to faith as "mythical, sick, delusions of grandeur", and providing no real support material, i guess thats it for now.
    Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    Ahnimus wrote:
    If you are getting your principles from the Bible then you are a scary prejudice person.

    Watch: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8463073960287313294&q=bullshit+bible
    For someone who is a proponent of logic you must understand why it would be absurd for me to watch a video of someone else's beliefs in order to understand my own principles.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    cornnifer wrote:
    When did i ever say it did? I didn't. So now that i've brought you full circle, and you're back to simply referring to faith as "mythical, sick, delusions of grandeur", and providing no real support material, i guess thats it for now.
    Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

    No, I said your concept of a "evil and good" mechanism was sick, mythical and delusional. I apologize, but do you honestly think that's a good measure?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    cornnifer wrote:
    So, you're saying that you and i are at a completely different level of evolution than the guy who knows its wrong to, lets say, steal candy from small children, yet does it anyway? We're completely different species? Sorry, but i have to file that one in the "completely ILlogical" folder.

    No we are the same species, but soem have advanced further past primitive thinking than others. That's not illogical and has alot to do with education and lack of brain stimulation. Obviously to us, we know it is wrong to steal, why doesn't the guy you mentioned know it? He's still only looking out for himself not looking ahead too far, at all. He chances of survival living this way are very slim but he only sees the here and now of surviving. We know we need a better plan.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde

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