If you only rely on science then there are lots of truths that you can't prove. You can't prove George Washington was the first President with science. That is historical information. You can't prove Plato existed with science. You can't prove that it is wrong to kill another human being with science.
I understand your reliance on science, but science is a moving train too. And it is not always right for sure. Today's science will be proven in some areas to be faulty 20 to 100 years from now. Sometimes other truths need to be searched out as well.
I dare to say there are many truths that will never be proven by science, that is why I also rely on thought outside of the lab.
Umm. Think about it, if you can't prove something. You can't be sure it's true. You would just guess at it and convince yourself it is true. You are talking about historical accounts of ancient texts as if it's concrete. There are numerous ancient texts that make ludicrous claims. Most of which you probably wouldn't believe. The historical accounts of the bible are incorrect and inaccurate. It's one thing to say a guy named Jesus Christ existed, but even that can't be proven. Someone suggested to me that they found a boat ontop of a hill somewhere and it proves the noah's ark story. But it wasn't Mt. Ararat so it doesn't work with the bible story. It also doesn't prove the whole world flooded and it doesn't explain how Noah got all the Marcupials in Australia. There is proof a guy by a different name herded animals onto a boat, but there was nothing miraculous about it. Moses and the red sea, well there is no proof, there is proof some people walked across a grassy marsh, some argue it was the reed sea. No miracles there. If there are no miracles, then there is no devine intervention. So perhaps it's just ancient stories exagerated over time. We know from looking at other civilizations that people seek a higher power, Allah, God, Yahweh could just be a product of imagination.
Ask yourself, using a clear head, is it as far of a stretch to believe that there is no god, as it is to believe there is a god. Ask yourself if those same people might be considered a little insane if they wrote history like that today. E.g. Fire raged from the sky, Allah brought justice to America, when describing 9-11. Probably somewhere in an islamic history book, that's what it says. Consider that the people writing the Bible may have had an agenda. Or were mentally unstable.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Umm. Think about it, if you can't prove something. You can't be sure it's true. You would just guess at it and convince yourself it is true. You are talking about historical accounts of ancient texts as if it's concrete. There are numerous ancient texts that make ludicrous claims. Most of which you probably wouldn't believe. The historical accounts of the bible are incorrect and inaccurate. It's one thing to say a guy named Jesus Christ existed, but even that can't be proven. Someone suggested to me that they found a boat ontop of a hill somewhere and it proves the noah's ark story. But it wasn't Mt. Ararat so it doesn't work with the bible story. It also doesn't prove the whole world flooded and it doesn't explain how Noah got all the Marcupials in Australia. There is proof a guy by a different name herded animals onto a boat, but there was nothing miraculous about it. Moses and the red sea, well there is no proof, there is proof some people walked across a grassy marsh, some argue it was the reed sea. No miracles there. If there are no miracles, then there is no devine intervention. So perhaps it's just ancient stories exagerated over time. We know from looking at other civilizations that people seek a higher power, Allah, God, Yahweh could just be a product of imagination.
Ask yourself, using a clear head, is it as far of a stretch to believe that there is no god, as it is to believe there is a god. Ask yourself if those same people might be considered a little insane if they wrote history like that today. E.g. Fire raged from the sky, Allah brought justice to America, when describing 9-11. Probably somewhere in an islamic history book, that's what it says. Consider that the people writing the Bible may have had an agenda. Or were mentally unstable.
DO YOU believe in the existence of the man named Albert Einstein? You may readily answer yes, but why? Most people have not personally met him. Yet, reliable reports of his accomplishments prove that he did exist. The influence of his existence is felt through scientific applications of his discoveries. For instance, many benefit from electricity generated by nuclear energy, the release of which is closely linked with the application of Einstein’s famous equation, E=mc2
The same reasoning applies to Jesus Christ, admittedly the most influential man in history. What was written about him and the visible evidence of the influence he wielded prove beyond doubt that he did exist. The fact is, we can find evidence of Jesus’ existence in what secular historians wrote about him and his followers, including Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, Justin Martyr, Roman historian Suetonius, Tacitus, Will Durant...
“Is the life story of the founder of Christianity the product of human sorrow, imagination, and hope—a myth comparable to the legends of Krishna, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, and Mithras?” asks historian Will Durant. He answers that in the*first century, to deny that Christ had ever existed “seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity.”—The Story of Civilization,: Part III, “Caesar and Christ.”
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
...
The term, 'God Fearing' is made up by religion... God loves us... why do we FEAR Him? I don't. Maybe if we just teach our kids to love people and to see us as curators of our common planet... that our time here is relatively short and we should not waste our time on hate and fear... then, maybe God would show Himself to us and we wouldn't have to try to use twisted logic to prove He exists.
Fear -- Greek -- 03372 yare' {yaw-ray'
1)
1a2) to stand in awe of, be awed
1a3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect
1b) (Niphal)
1b1)
1b2) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe
1b3) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe
Fear -- reverence: respect or awe for somebody or something
vt---- feel reverence for somebody or something: to show respect for or be in awe of somebody or something
Awe -- awe [aw]
n
1. mixture of wonder and dread: a feeling of amazement and respect mixed with fear that is often coupled with a feeling of personal insignificance or powerlessness
I had a "near-death experience" when I was a teenager. I real one with actual death - where I was brought back to physical life again. Brought back, sent back, came back. Something like that. I went into the Light as they say -- and returned to talk about it. One of the first sentences I used to try and define something beyond words -- was,
"I was in total awe of it all. All of it. Every single ounce of it, every single grain of it, every single second of it. It is all amazing and we have just forgotten how amazing and awesome it all is -- while we sleep in this human body of ours."
We get lost in concepts, ideas, theories, thoughts -- and a great deal of words.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In Remembering The Way {Wah Doh}
As I grew I shed a habit of thinking without words, and in doing so lost the connection to believing in what is not defined by speech, and seeing what exists beyond man's organized classifications.
And so, as I grew I forgot how to talk to the ant and to the antelope, to the wind and the moon, and forgot the many faces of my creator beyond the word I spell GOD.
I forgot as I learned to walk upright that I have also been one with the four footers and those with no feet at all. I forgot as I trampled the dust for the sake of chasing stars that the dust was from where I had risen, and from where my sustenance still grows, and that I came to be here from having first fallen from those very stars.
I learned to think in words and to reason by a law known as logic, and lost those feelings closest to the truth, and that faith that is proof positive, beyond the grasp of numbers and beyond the confines of the dictionary.
In remembering the way, I touched my influence over earth -- much greater than I ever dreamed, tempered by my smallness that I am no larger than the blades of grass.
And within it there lies the raw power and light of soul - in striking a balance with all that is given, knowing with respect and humility that I am also but one of the given.
DO YOU believe in the existence of the man named Albert Einstein? You may readily answer yes, but why? Most people have not personally met him. Yet, reliable reports of his accomplishments prove that he did exist. The influence of his existence is felt through scientific applications of his discoveries. For instance, many benefit from electricity generated by nuclear energy, the release of which is closely linked with the application of Einstein’s famous equation, E=mc2
The same reasoning applies to Jesus Christ, admittedly the most influential man in history. What was written about him and the visible evidence of the influence he wielded prove beyond doubt that he did exist. The fact is, we can find evidence of Jesus’ existence in what secular historians wrote about him and his followers, including Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, Justin Martyr, Roman historian Suetonius, Tacitus, Will Durant...
“Is the life story of the founder of Christianity the product of human sorrow, imagination, and hope—a myth comparable to the legends of Krishna, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, and Mithras?” asks historian Will Durant. He answers that in the*first century, to deny that Christ had ever existed “seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity.”—The Story of Civilization,: Part III, “Caesar and Christ.”
Well, we have photographs of Albert Einstein and writings with his signature on it. As I said it really doesn't matter of Jesus existed or not. There were no miracles.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
1)
1a2) to stand in awe of, be awed
1a3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect
1b) (Niphal)
1b1)
1b2) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe
1b3) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe
Fear -- reverence: respect or awe for somebody or something
vt---- feel reverence for somebody or something: to show respect for or be in awe of somebody or something
Awe -- awe [aw]
n
1. mixture of wonder and dread: a feeling of amazement and respect mixed with fear that is often coupled with a feeling of personal insignificance or powerlessness
I had a "near-death experience" when I was a teenager. I real one with actual death - where I was brought back to physical life again. Brought back, sent back, came back. Something like that. I went into the Light as they say -- and returned to talk about it. One of the first sentences I used to try and define something beyond words -- was,
"I was in total awe of it all. All of it. Every single ounce of it, every single grain of it, every single second of it. It is all amazing and we have just forgotten how amazing and awesome it all is -- while we sleep in this human body of ours."
We get lost in concepts, ideas, theories, thoughts -- and a great deal of words.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In Remembering The Way {Wah Doh}
As I grew I shed a habit of thinking without words, and in doing so lost the connection to believing in what is not defined by speech, and seeing what exists beyond man's organized classifications.
And so, as I grew I forgot how to talk to the ant and to the antelope, to the wind and the moon, and forgot the many faces of my creator beyond the word I spell GOD.
I forgot as I learned to walk upright that I have also been one with the four footers and those with no feet at all. I forgot as I trampled the dust for the sake of chasing stars that the dust was from where I had risen, and from where my sustenance still grows, and that I came to be here from having first fallen from those very stars.
I learned to think in words and to reason by a law known as logic, and lost those feelings closest to the truth, and that faith that is proof positive, beyond the grasp of numbers and beyond the confines of the dictionary.
In remembering the way, I touched my influence over earth -- much greater than I ever dreamed, tempered by my smallness that I am no larger than the blades of grass.
And within it there lies the raw power and light of soul - in striking a balance with all that is given, knowing with respect and humility that I am also but one of the given.
Well, we have photographs of Albert Einstein and writings with his signature on it. As I said it really doesn't matter of Jesus existed or not. There were no miracles.
The historical accounts of the bible are incorrect and inaccurate. It's one thing to say a guy named Jesus Christ existed, but even that can't be proven.
well, the teachings and genealogy of Jesus are in writing as well. and since you think the Bible is incorrect or inaccurate, again there are the accounts of Josephus.
so a picture makes you a believer? what about the many important (or not so important) events through this nations history, or the whole world for that matter, that we deem important to teach kids in school. no pictures there, just written accounts most of the time and we accept these as fact.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Origin: var. sp. of affrayed, ptp. of affray to disturb, frighten]
—Synonyms 1. scared, fearful, disquieted, apprehensive, timid, timorous. Afraid, alarmed, frightened, terrified all indicate a state of fear. Afraid implies inner apprehensive disquiet: afraid of the dark. Alarmed implies that the feelings are aroused through realization of some imminent or unexpected danger to oneself or others: alarmed by (or about) someone's illness. Frightened means shocked with sudden, but usually short-lived, fear, esp. that arising from apprehension of physical harm: frightened by an accident. Terrified suggests the emotional reaction when one is struck with a violent, overwhelming fear: terrified by an earthquake.
—Antonyms 1. bold, confident, fearless.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hey,
I think there is a difference between "spirit" and the three letter word g-o-d.
But the real, valid, and absolute "Creator Spirits" of heart and soul --- NO.
No fear.
I believe there is a true "God" and a false "God." My belief is that the false "God" is something humanity has created for itself. I don't have a great deal of confidentance in that false "God." I am not afraid of either, or.
I think Ignorance is my greatest concern.
You want to know a secret?
What was the original sin -- as the story goes in Genesis?
Humans were created and everything was fine - until the one day --when the Spirit of God came a calling. What happened? They became afraid and and hid from the "Spirit of God" in fear. Why?
Figure out why -- and you got the answer to life and death.
AV - sin 188, purify 11, cleanse 8, sinner 8, committed 6, offended 4,
blame 2, done 2, fault 1, harm 1, loss 1, miss 1, offender 1,
purge 1, reconciliation 1, sinful 1, trespass 1; 238
1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify
from uncleanness
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to miss
1a2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to miss the mark
1c3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
1d2) to purify oneself from uncleanness
Sin --- Hebrew --- 02398 chata' {khaw-taw'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 638; v
AV - sin 188, purify 11, cleanse 8, sinner 8, committed 6, offended 4,
blame 2, done 2, fault 1, harm 1, loss 1, miss 1, offender 1,
purge 1, reconciliation 1, sinful 1, trespass 1; 238
1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify
from uncleanness
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to miss
1a2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to miss the mark
1c3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
1d2) to purify oneself from uncleanness
Sin --- Greek---- 264 hamartano {ham-ar-tan'-o}
perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313;
TDNT - 1:267,44; v
AV - sin 38, trespass 3, offend 1, for your faults 1; 43
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and
honour, to do or go wrong
Greek -- 3313 meros {mer'-os}
from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a
section or allotment); TDNT - 4:594,585; n n
AV - part 24, portion 3, coast 3, behalf 2, respect 2, misc 9; 43
1) a part
1a) a part due or assigned to one
1b) lot, destiny
2) one of the constituent parts of a whole
2a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree,
as respects a part, severally, individually
2b) any particular, in regard to this, in this respect
Perfect ---- Greek -- 5046 teleios {tel'-i-os}
from 5056; TDNT - 8:67,1161; adj
AV - perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
Greek 5056 telos {tel'-os}
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);
TDNT - 8:49,1161; n n
AV - end 35, custom 3, uttermost 1, finally 1, ending 1,
by (one's) continual + 1519 1; 42
1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be
(always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end
of a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
Perfect --- Hebrew ---- 08549 tamiym {taw-meem'}
from 08552; TWOT - 2522d; adj
AV - without blemish 44, perfect 18, upright 8, without spot 6,
uprightly 4, whole 4, sincerely 2, complete 1, full 1, misc 3; 91
1) complete, whole, entire, sound
1a) complete, whole, entire
1b) whole, sound, healthful
1c) complete, entire (of time)
1d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
1e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact
(neuter adj/subst)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I feel the word "sin" is overused and over rated to mean more than what it implies.
Most of my thoughts and idea's concerning the spiritual conception and the land of time -- have to do with several "near=death experiences." Only recently have I tried to attach words to the meaning I held within me for so long.
In the creation process -- there is a duality to the creation of the "soul" or "true image" of the "divine." "In the beginning God created ........"
The Hebrew word for this diety is --- 0430 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} plural of 0433
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
It is not a HE or a SHE as much as it is a THEM. (It always gets me when I hear or see people refer to it as a HE.) The true creation is a dual image created in THEIR image. In physical form --- there is a formation of the outer shell. Flesh versus Spirit.
In Flesh -- we have wondered away from the Spirit. In Flesh, there is a seperation of the dual spiriutal image created within the Divine realm. (Twin Souls is what some refer to this as.) It is when we seek to reunite ourselves with a physical formation -- that we get lost from our Divine Partner created in the true image. We seek outside ourselves -- something -- that can only be achieved within ourselves. (Call it prayer, devotion, meditation, or plain ol' intuition.)
It is NOT FEAR that leads us to the divine path hidden within.......... it is Love. The longing for that which we have been seperated from in spirit takes hold within us while incased in the flesh. The desire for love can be pointed outwardly (wordly) or inwardly (eternal.)
The world promotes fear through ignorance and arrogance.
That is why I don't like going to Churches. When I was younger, - I found they seemed to be promoting "hell and damnation" more than "Truth and Love."
I don't feel Hell and Damnation should be used to promote -- Love and Truth. It sort of misses the mark in my mind.
I don't believe you can come into the flesh and NOT be involved in "sin." It is the way of the flesh or physical body the spirit is incased within.
I feel the best way to look at the subject is ----
"We are spiritual beings having a human experience."
To many times -- I feel people have it backwards. They feel they are humans first -- and seeking to find a spiritual experience.
It irks me that god supposedly gave us these wonderful brains, then demanded that we not use them. Stay away from that apple of knowledge! Here, chew on this plum of ignorance instead.
interesting. let me preface what i am about to say with the caveat that my thoughts about the apple story in the bible are not yet complete...but here's where i am at this time.
i think that the apple story isn't about attaining knowledge per se; rather, it's about attaining a certain kind of knowledge...which is self awareness and sentience. the story seems rather metaphorical and allegorical to me and in my opinion is not meant to be taken literally. instead, it describes the evolution of humanity to the point where man becomes self aware and is "cast" from the garden of eden, which doesn't necessarily represent ignorance, but more so a lack of self awareness and sentience. once one has attained self awareness/sentience, he cannot go back into the garden of eden because the garden represents that which is without self awareness and sentience.
in this light, i don't think the story was intended to impart that god didn't want adam and eve to attain self awareness/sentience or that he was punishing adam and eve for becoming become sentient/self aware by casting them from the garden; rather, that with the attainment of sentience/self awareness came certain conditions (and here's where a leap comes into play and i am not yet certain about the connection): linearity of thought and mortality.
something that people who believe in god and people who do not believe in god have in common is that they are both inherently limited in their capacity to understand anything non-linear. given this limitation, any arguments or logical statements for or against the existence of a supposed higher being that is inherently non-linear can be said to be incomplete at best and at worst wholly inaccurate and insufficient. not withstanding, these thoughts of mine you have just read also fall prey to this conundrum…so, that being said…I think I’ll go watch some TV.
ds
And no one sings me lullabyes
And no one makes me close my eyes
So I throw the windows wide
And call to you across the sky....
interesting. let me preface what i am about to say with the caveat that my thoughts about the apple story in the bible are not yet complete...but here's where i am at this time.
i think that the apple story isn't about attaining knowledge per se; rather, it's about attaining a certain kind of knowledge...which is self awareness and sentience. the story seems rather metaphorical and allegorical to me and in my opinion is not meant to be taken literally. instead, it describes the evolution of humanity to the point where man becomes self aware and is "cast" from the garden of eden, which doesn't necessarily represent ignorance, but more so a lack of self awareness and sentience. once one has attained self awareness/sentience, he cannot go back into the garden of eden because the garden represents that which is without self awareness and sentience.
in this light, i don't think the story was intended to impart that god didn't want adam and eve to attain self awareness/sentience or that he was punishing adam and eve for becoming become sentient/self aware by casting them from the garden; rather, that with the attainment of sentience/self awareness came certain conditions (and here's where a leap comes into play and i am not yet certain about the connection): linearity of thought and mortality.
something that people who believe in god and people who do not believe in god have in common is that they are both inherently limited in their capacity to understand anything non-linear. given this limitation, any arguments or logical statements for or against the existence of a supposed higher being that is inherently non-linear can be said to be incomplete at best and at worst wholly inaccurate and insufficient. not withstanding, these thoughts of mine you have just read also fall prey to this conundrum…so, that being said…I think I’ll go watch some TV.
ds
Well said.
Belief in God solely consists of faith due to the fact that none of us have ever actually SEEN Him. The way I see it is, when the time comes for me to die, if I find there was nothing more to life, I'm simply dead and buried, there's no God to be found and no heaven in sight, well, having faith while I was alive certainly didn't have a negative impact so I've lost nothing by believing. On the flipside, if when I die everything I had faith in proves true, I've gained everything.
My take on God not only creating perfection, but being perfect himself is exactly that. God made/makes no mistakes. He has planned everything out from the beginning of time until the very end, whenever that may be. What he didn't anticipate was defiance on the part of Adam and Eve. The reason for their disobedience...FREE WILL, which God gave them. The moment they ate from that tree, the perfect beings God intended us to be significantly changed. Adam and Eve were no longer innocent and pure, which means the price to be paid from there forward was that Adam and Eve would produce imperfect beings as they themselves were no longer perfect. Since they were created to populate the earth, perfection was no longer possible due to their colossal mistake and direct defiance against God. He is merciful and loving, but He also becomes angry and punishes those who deliberately act out against Him. WE, sinful human beings, are the product of Adam and Eve's decision to disobey. That mistake and others made by humans thereafter would later be redeemed by Jesus to carry out God's original plan for purity which brings it all back full circle to the fact that God is perfection and makes no mistakes. His agenda has never faltered.
This of course is what I've learned and believe to be true. Everyone has their own interpretation and I've always found different views helpful and interesting.
i think that the apple story isn't about attaining knowledge per se; rather, it's about attaining a certain kind of knowledge...which is self awareness and sentience. the story seems rather metaphorical and allegorical to me and in my opinion is not meant to be taken literally. instead, it describes the evolution of humanity to the point where man becomes self aware and is "cast" from the garden of eden, which doesn't necessarily represent ignorance, but more so a lack of self awareness and sentience. once one has attained self awareness/sentience, he cannot go back into the garden of eden because the garden represents that which is without self awareness and sentience.
ds
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Genesis 2:21, "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;"
Hebrew -- Bereshit - 2:21 God then made the man fall into a deep state of unconsciousness, and he slept. He took one of his ribs and closed the flesh in its place.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When I had my "near-death" -- the consciousness changed and there was an awareness without feeling. It is interesting to me that when I did my study of the Hebrew texts -- the line above represented a sleep that still exists. It is a form of consciousness and unconsciousness. God exists in our unconsciousness. When the scripture refers to the running and hiding part -- I feel it is a metaphroical reference to coming aware in a conscious manner. We hid from "God" in our normal walk around conscious frame of mind. When I did have my "near-death" -- I later told people,
"I just woke up for a short time. I am now back asleep again."
Life in the world of man was about sleeping in a shadow body. (physical body) With that - came a conscious state of mind - seperate from the unconscious state of mind, where mystery and truth dwell.
I once talked to a fellow musician about my "near-death." I told him about a memory I had afterwards where -- while in transistion between this realm of reality - and the reality of our creation -- I found myself in travel and felt a connection to every living soul on the planet. I could see, feel, hear, and comprehend (in a spiritual manner) all living beings on the planet at the same instant. I could see through the eyes of a woman in Hong Kong, and at the same time, I could see life through the eyes of a man in Russia. When I came back into the physical body again afterwards -- this sensation was too much for me, (in a limited conscious state of mind,) to comprehend fully. In a normal conscious state of mind -- it is hard to comprehend a billion lifes at once. While I was out of the physical body and away from the conscious mind, and in a spiritual body in an unconscious state of mind, -- it was a normal equation to ponder.
All in All is all we are.
Every thing is connected. We are just limited to our comprehension on a conscious level to fully understand the connection.
I had a conversation with a highly religious fellow last week and I brought up these points.
He argued that god is perfect and created man perfect in his image. However man chose to make an imperfect decision. To me that implies neither god nor man are perfect. However his interpretation is that men can be created perfect and not make perfect decisions. Because god's idea of a perfect being is one that can make mistakes.
He actually got really upset I think and he was quite offended by my inquiry into this logic. He also stated that archealogists have uncovered hard physical evidence of god's existance. This turned out to be hebrew texts, so I mentioned the Sumerian texts that date back to 3000 B.C. many years before the hebrew ones and with very different beliefs. That made him more upset and attempted to locate online evidence of other findings to prove himself right.
What astonishes me the most about it is that I am not sure if a god exists or not, due to lack of evidence and understanding. The history of religion leads me to suspect it was created by man and there is no such supreme entity. However, I continue to ask the questions and seak further knowledge, while this individual would not accept my logic or refutation of physical evidence and he actually became very offended.
The open mind of religion once again.
To be so sure and devoted to something with such little evidence is setting yourself up for a big fall, all it could take is one moment of doubt and his whole life may suddenly feel empty and in vein.
Thats not to say I totally disbelieve in a god, just highly sceptical.
The open mind of religion once again.
To be so sure and devoted to something with such little evidence is setting yourself up for a big fall, all it could take is one moment of doubt and his whole life may suddenly feel empty and in vein.
Thats not to say I totally disbelieve in a god, just highly sceptical.
Doubt -- (philosophy) method of philosophical questioning: a method of questioning claims to knowledge, especially in the philosophy of Descartes.
Sceptical - doubtful: tending not to believe or accept things but to question them.
When I was a child, I had nightly visitations from a transcendental being of spiritual intelligence. I was trying to study and comprehend the world we live in away from my former existence beyond this realm of reality. The strife, grief, and overall discontentment of life was dragging my young mind down into thoughts and feelings of misery. I wanted to know how to cope mentally with the problems of this world, -- while absent (in mind) from my former world.
Prior to one visit -- I had been given complicated formulas about "hate, envy, fear, jealousy, anger, etc." They feed upon one another and bring about a state of misery and discontentment. I wanted to know the secret to contentment or harmony while in human form. The transcendental being said the trick was KNOWing the LOVE of Creation. That was easy for the transcendental being to put into English words -- yet it was another thing for my young mind to comprehend.
"HOW do you KNOW that?"
I was told,
"You ask your Creator* for knowledge of that Love." (The being used the
word "Father.")
For my young child's mind -- that was too simple.
"If it is all that simple -- then why in the world isn't every one in the world doing it -- and ending all the problems with hate, anger, grief, and MISERY? You got to be mistaken."
The trancendental being pointed out my doubt and said,
"That is why. Doubt in the world of man is strong and has a pull unto gravity. It weighs heavy on the mind and keeps people from the simplicity of knowing the love of their Father. Simple truth of the matter is -- all they need to do is simply ask their Father -- for the knowledge they need to overcome their misery and discontentment. They over look the simplicty for the more complicated equations -- just as your young mind has in this moment. You doubted the Love of your Father and that kept you from asking your Father a simple question."
I was told you have to ask with expectation. You have to walk and talk with the full expectation of recieving exactly what you asked for.
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Gospel of Philip --
122. Cultivation in the world is thru four modes — (crops) are gathered into the barn thru earth and water and wind and light. And the cultivation by God is likewise thru four: trust and hope and love and recognition. Our earth is trust in which we take root, the water is hope thru which we are nourished, the wind is love thru which we grow, yet the light is recognition thru which we ripen. [...] (Ph 116)
MODE
(122): Greek EIDOC ("form")--the term for the Platonic forms (often as IDEA) as well as the Aristotelian species; note also the evident allusion to the four primary elements of ancient physics: earth, water, air, and fire (recast in modern formulation as the four basic states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma)
TRUST
Greek ICTIC ("trust, faith")--not mere factual opinion, but rather personal confidence in someone or something
HOPE
Greek ELIC ("expectation")--not mere wishing, but rather anticipation
LOVE
Coptic ME(PE) // Greek AGAATE ALLHLOYC ("be-compassionate with-one-another!")
RECOGNITION
(116): Coptic COOYN = Greek GNWCIC ("gnosis")--this important term means personal acquaintance rather than mere intellectual knowledge.
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To me, and from my personal experience concerning the nature and truth of our Creation --that knowledge can only come from the Creators. The only one who can prove "God's" existence to you --- is you and God.
Just simply ask and expect to recieve it in due time.
Umm. Think about it, if you can't prove something. You can't be sure it's true. You would just guess at it and convince yourself it is true. You are talking about historical accounts of ancient texts as if it's concrete. There are numerous ancient texts that make ludicrous claims. Most of which you probably wouldn't believe. The historical accounts of the bible are incorrect and inaccurate. It's one thing to say a guy named Jesus Christ existed, but even that can't be proven. ..
Ask yourself, using a clear head, is it as far of a stretch to believe that there is no god, as it is to believe there is a god. Ask yourself if those same people might be considered a little insane if they wrote history like that today. E.g. Fire raged from the sky, Allah brought justice to America, when describing 9-11. Probably somewhere in an islamic history book, that's what it says. Consider that the people writing the Bible may have had an agenda. Or were mentally unstable.
Man, you are very convinced! I do have a clear head but I get the feeling if science determined tomorrow that God exists and that Jesus existed, and that he performed miracles, you would still not believe it.
I am pretty sure that God will not be proven scientifically in our lifetime, because it will be too conflicting with the current state of science. NOT BECAUSE GOD DOESN'T EXIST. I looks to me like your absolutism in science has closed your mind and has also made you a hypocrite. There are many things you probably believe to be true that are not proven with science. You have just chosen to not believe in God for a host of reasons.
Archeaology has done more to prove out the historical accuracy of the Bible than disprove it, and that is science. Why not give that a shot if you want to rely on proven facts only.
God didn't say believe in him only when the your finite minds and science catch up to me. That would be totally unfair to all the human beings that existed prior to technology that could prove his existence.
Keep an open mind, there is more to life than meets the eye.
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
Now you are, like many others, bending your own words. You asked about people who do not believe in God, yet do good things. I offered my own response, which i know many people will not agree with, and thats totally cool. Now you come back with "good is relative". You basically suggest, if i'm following you, that there are is absolutely nothing that is universally accepted as wrong. There is absolutely nothing that is universally accepted as right. Your soldier example doesn't work. Most people would acknowledge that killing, in the street, for no particular reason, and a soldier at war performing his job in a war situation, are entirely different things. Not to be compared. Furthermore, those who do not acknowledge this difference, will tell you that the soldier is, in fact wrong. Those who tell you the soldier is justified, do not see what he is doing as actually killing. Do you see my point? You would compare outright murder with, what many (not necessarily myself) would simply consider a soldier doing an un fortunate, yet necessary job. You use that comparison to make an implied claim that murder is not universally accepted, by sane individuals, as wrong! It doesn't work. You would also imply that certain things like physical donations to the poor and starving, volunteering in adult literacy programs, helping old, crippled, women across the street, being a hugger at the special olympics, etc... , would not be universally accepted as good?! There is absolutely, under no circumstance, any such thing as good, bad, right, or wrong. Only perspective! Others here would argue that Good, bad, right, and wrong, may exist, but only happen due to evolutionary accident! We happily smile at handicapped children only to ensure our survival as a species, and only out of instinctual evolutionary coercion! You compare a small child's magical, childhood belief in Santa Claus to an intelligent, rational, experienced adult's belief in some certain universal rights and wrongs! This thread has gotten scary. Absolutely terrifying! If what you, and others, suggest, is true, i have absolutely no hope for our species. Absolutely none.
...
Getting a bit dramatic there, eh, Frances?
You confirmed my statement that 'Good' in relative, not absolute. That was all I was saying... the Good you see may not be the good as others see. A soldier killing your child (a soldier in a different uniform) in a warzone is not seen as good by everyone. It all depends on which uniform is on your side.
As for your other examples... donations for a tax write-off.... good? And as for helpng the poor and less fortunate... these are things we SHOULD be doing because we are human. They should not be the exception... they should be the norm. We are humans, not animals. animals live by the strongest shall survive... but, we are supposed to be the strongest helps the weakest... the fortunate should help the less fortunate... the rich should help, not forsake the poor... of course, this is relative to my view. I mentioned evolution no where... or Santa Claus, either.
And speaking of Santa Claus... I like Santa Claus. But, I know that lying is wrong. am I good for prolonging this lie to my little niece? Would i be 'good' to tell her the truth... that her parents have been lying to her about this all of her life?
It's all relative and not absolute.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Umm. Think about it, if you can't prove something. You can't be sure it's true. You would just guess at it and convince yourself it is true. You are talking about historical accounts of ancient texts as if it's concrete. There are numerous ancient texts that make ludicrous claims. Most of which you probably wouldn't believe. The historical accounts of the bible are incorrect and inaccurate. It's one thing to say a guy named Jesus Christ existed, but even that can't be proven. Someone suggested to me that they found a boat ontop of a hill somewhere and it proves the noah's ark story. But it wasn't Mt. Ararat so it doesn't work with the bible story. It also doesn't prove the whole world flooded and it doesn't explain how Noah got all the Marcupials in Australia. There is proof a guy by a different name herded animals onto a boat, but there was nothing miraculous about it. Moses and the red sea, well there is no proof, there is proof some people walked across a grassy marsh, some argue it was the reed sea. No miracles there. If there are no miracles, then there is no devine intervention. So perhaps it's just ancient stories exagerated over time. We know from looking at other civilizations that people seek a higher power, Allah, God, Yahweh could just be a product of imagination.
Ask yourself, using a clear head, is it as far of a stretch to believe that there is no god, as it is to believe there is a god. Ask yourself if those same people might be considered a little insane if they wrote history like that today. E.g. Fire raged from the sky, Allah brought justice to America, when describing 9-11. Probably somewhere in an islamic history book, that's what it says. Consider that the people writing the Bible may have had an agenda. Or were mentally unstable.
DO YOU believe in the existence of the man named Albert Einstein? You may readily answer yes, but why? Most people have not personally met him. Yet, reliable reports of his accomplishments prove that he did exist. The influence of his existence is felt through scientific applications of his discoveries. For instance, many benefit from electricity generated by nuclear energy, the release of which is closely linked with the application of Einstein’s famous equation, E=mc2
The same reasoning applies to Jesus Christ, admittedly the most influential man in history. What was written about him and the visible evidence of the influence he wielded prove beyond doubt that he did exist. The fact is, we can find evidence of Jesus’ existence in what secular historians wrote about him and his followers, including Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, Justin Martyr, Roman historian Suetonius, Tacitus, Will Durant...
“Is the life story of the founder of Christianity the product of human sorrow, imagination, and hope—a myth comparable to the legends of Krishna, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, and Mithras?” asks historian Will Durant. He answers that in the*first century, to deny that Christ had ever existed “seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity.”—The Story of Civilization,: Part III, “Caesar and Christ.”
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
Fear -- Greek -- 03372 yare' {yaw-ray'
1)
1a2) to stand in awe of, be awed
1a3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect
1b) (Niphal)
1b1)
1b2) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe
1b3) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe
Fear -- reverence: respect or awe for somebody or something
vt---- feel reverence for somebody or something: to show respect for or be in awe of somebody or something
Awe -- awe [aw]
n
1. mixture of wonder and dread: a feeling of amazement and respect mixed with fear that is often coupled with a feeling of personal insignificance or powerlessness
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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I had a "near-death experience" when I was a teenager. I real one with actual death - where I was brought back to physical life again. Brought back, sent back, came back. Something like that. I went into the Light as they say -- and returned to talk about it. One of the first sentences I used to try and define something beyond words -- was,
"I was in total awe of it all. All of it. Every single ounce of it, every single grain of it, every single second of it. It is all amazing and we have just forgotten how amazing and awesome it all is -- while we sleep in this human body of ours."
We get lost in concepts, ideas, theories, thoughts -- and a great deal of words.
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In Remembering The Way {Wah Doh}
As I grew I shed a habit of thinking without words, and in doing so lost the connection to believing in what is not defined by speech, and seeing what exists beyond man's organized classifications.
And so, as I grew I forgot how to talk to the ant and to the antelope, to the wind and the moon, and forgot the many faces of my creator beyond the word I spell GOD.
I forgot as I learned to walk upright that I have also been one with the four footers and those with no feet at all. I forgot as I trampled the dust for the sake of chasing stars that the dust was from where I had risen, and from where my sustenance still grows, and that I came to be here from having first fallen from those very stars.
I learned to think in words and to reason by a law known as logic, and lost those feelings closest to the truth, and that faith that is proof positive, beyond the grasp of numbers and beyond the confines of the dictionary.
In remembering the way, I touched my influence over earth -- much greater than I ever dreamed, tempered by my smallness that I am no larger than the blades of grass.
And within it there lies the raw power and light of soul - in striking a balance with all that is given, knowing with respect and humility that I am also but one of the given.
~ JD McKannan
Well, we have photographs of Albert Einstein and writings with his signature on it. As I said it really doesn't matter of Jesus existed or not. There were no miracles.
So, goldenwords, you are not afraid of god?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
i'm just responding to this quote by you...
well, the teachings and genealogy of Jesus are in writing as well. and since you think the Bible is incorrect or inaccurate, again there are the accounts of Josephus.
so a picture makes you a believer? what about the many important (or not so important) events through this nations history, or the whole world for that matter, that we deem important to teach kids in school. no pictures there, just written accounts most of the time and we accept these as fact.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
[Origin: var. sp. of affrayed, ptp. of affray to disturb, frighten]
—Synonyms 1. scared, fearful, disquieted, apprehensive, timid, timorous. Afraid, alarmed, frightened, terrified all indicate a state of fear. Afraid implies inner apprehensive disquiet: afraid of the dark. Alarmed implies that the feelings are aroused through realization of some imminent or unexpected danger to oneself or others: alarmed by (or about) someone's illness. Frightened means shocked with sudden, but usually short-lived, fear, esp. that arising from apprehension of physical harm: frightened by an accident. Terrified suggests the emotional reaction when one is struck with a violent, overwhelming fear: terrified by an earthquake.
—Antonyms 1. bold, confident, fearless.
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Hey,
I think there is a difference between "spirit" and the three letter word g-o-d.
But the real, valid, and absolute "Creator Spirits" of heart and soul --- NO.
No fear.
I believe there is a true "God" and a false "God." My belief is that the false "God" is something humanity has created for itself. I don't have a great deal of confidentance in that false "God." I am not afraid of either, or.
I think Ignorance is my greatest concern.
You want to know a secret?
What was the original sin -- as the story goes in Genesis?
Humans were created and everything was fine - until the one day --when the Spirit of God came a calling. What happened? They became afraid and and hid from the "Spirit of God" in fear. Why?
Figure out why -- and you got the answer to life and death.
Sincerely,
DKing
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Hmmmmm ........ Sin and Perfect. What is it in the eyes of man? What is it in the mind of man?
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Hebrew -- 02398 chata' {khaw-taw'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 638; v
AV - sin 188, purify 11, cleanse 8, sinner 8, committed 6, offended 4,
blame 2, done 2, fault 1, harm 1, loss 1, miss 1, offender 1,
purge 1, reconciliation 1, sinful 1, trespass 1; 238
1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify
from uncleanness
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to miss
1a2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to miss the mark
1c3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
1d2) to purify oneself from uncleanness
Sin --- Hebrew --- 02398 chata' {khaw-taw'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 638; v
AV - sin 188, purify 11, cleanse 8, sinner 8, committed 6, offended 4,
blame 2, done 2, fault 1, harm 1, loss 1, miss 1, offender 1,
purge 1, reconciliation 1, sinful 1, trespass 1; 238
1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify
from uncleanness
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to miss
1a2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to miss the mark
1c3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
1d2) to purify oneself from uncleanness
Sin --- Greek---- 264 hamartano {ham-ar-tan'-o}
perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313;
TDNT - 1:267,44; v
AV - sin 38, trespass 3, offend 1, for your faults 1; 43
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and
honour, to do or go wrong
Greek -- 3313 meros {mer'-os}
from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a
section or allotment); TDNT - 4:594,585; n n
AV - part 24, portion 3, coast 3, behalf 2, respect 2, misc 9; 43
1) a part
1a) a part due or assigned to one
1b) lot, destiny
2) one of the constituent parts of a whole
2a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree,
as respects a part, severally, individually
2b) any particular, in regard to this, in this respect
Perfect ---- Greek -- 5046 teleios {tel'-i-os}
from 5056; TDNT - 8:67,1161; adj
AV - perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
Greek 5056 telos {tel'-os}
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);
TDNT - 8:49,1161; n n
AV - end 35, custom 3, uttermost 1, finally 1, ending 1,
by (one's) continual + 1519 1; 42
1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be
(always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end
of a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
Perfect --- Hebrew ---- 08549 tamiym {taw-meem'}
from 08552; TWOT - 2522d; adj
AV - without blemish 44, perfect 18, upright 8, without spot 6,
uprightly 4, whole 4, sincerely 2, complete 1, full 1, misc 3; 91
1) complete, whole, entire, sound
1a) complete, whole, entire
1b) whole, sound, healthful
1c) complete, entire (of time)
1d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
1e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact
(neuter adj/subst)
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I feel the word "sin" is overused and over rated to mean more than what it implies.
Most of my thoughts and idea's concerning the spiritual conception and the land of time -- have to do with several "near=death experiences." Only recently have I tried to attach words to the meaning I held within me for so long.
In the creation process -- there is a duality to the creation of the "soul" or "true image" of the "divine." "In the beginning God created ........"
The Hebrew word for this diety is --- 0430 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} plural of 0433
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
It is not a HE or a SHE as much as it is a THEM. (It always gets me when I hear or see people refer to it as a HE.) The true creation is a dual image created in THEIR image. In physical form --- there is a formation of the outer shell. Flesh versus Spirit.
In Flesh -- we have wondered away from the Spirit. In Flesh, there is a seperation of the dual spiriutal image created within the Divine realm. (Twin Souls is what some refer to this as.) It is when we seek to reunite ourselves with a physical formation -- that we get lost from our Divine Partner created in the true image. We seek outside ourselves -- something -- that can only be achieved within ourselves. (Call it prayer, devotion, meditation, or plain ol' intuition.)
It is NOT FEAR that leads us to the divine path hidden within.......... it is Love. The longing for that which we have been seperated from in spirit takes hold within us while incased in the flesh. The desire for love can be pointed outwardly (wordly) or inwardly (eternal.)
The world promotes fear through ignorance and arrogance.
That is why I don't like going to Churches. When I was younger, - I found they seemed to be promoting "hell and damnation" more than "Truth and Love."
I don't feel Hell and Damnation should be used to promote -- Love and Truth. It sort of misses the mark in my mind.
I don't believe you can come into the flesh and NOT be involved in "sin." It is the way of the flesh or physical body the spirit is incased within.
I feel the best way to look at the subject is ----
"We are spiritual beings having a human experience."
To many times -- I feel people have it backwards. They feel they are humans first -- and seeking to find a spiritual experience.
My two cents on sin.
Sincerely,
DKing
interesting. let me preface what i am about to say with the caveat that my thoughts about the apple story in the bible are not yet complete...but here's where i am at this time.
i think that the apple story isn't about attaining knowledge per se; rather, it's about attaining a certain kind of knowledge...which is self awareness and sentience. the story seems rather metaphorical and allegorical to me and in my opinion is not meant to be taken literally. instead, it describes the evolution of humanity to the point where man becomes self aware and is "cast" from the garden of eden, which doesn't necessarily represent ignorance, but more so a lack of self awareness and sentience. once one has attained self awareness/sentience, he cannot go back into the garden of eden because the garden represents that which is without self awareness and sentience.
in this light, i don't think the story was intended to impart that god didn't want adam and eve to attain self awareness/sentience or that he was punishing adam and eve for becoming become sentient/self aware by casting them from the garden; rather, that with the attainment of sentience/self awareness came certain conditions (and here's where a leap comes into play and i am not yet certain about the connection): linearity of thought and mortality.
something that people who believe in god and people who do not believe in god have in common is that they are both inherently limited in their capacity to understand anything non-linear. given this limitation, any arguments or logical statements for or against the existence of a supposed higher being that is inherently non-linear can be said to be incomplete at best and at worst wholly inaccurate and insufficient. not withstanding, these thoughts of mine you have just read also fall prey to this conundrum…so, that being said…I think I’ll go watch some TV.
ds
And no one makes me close my eyes
So I throw the windows wide
And call to you across the sky....
Well said.
Belief in God solely consists of faith due to the fact that none of us have ever actually SEEN Him. The way I see it is, when the time comes for me to die, if I find there was nothing more to life, I'm simply dead and buried, there's no God to be found and no heaven in sight, well, having faith while I was alive certainly didn't have a negative impact so I've lost nothing by believing. On the flipside, if when I die everything I had faith in proves true, I've gained everything.
My take on God not only creating perfection, but being perfect himself is exactly that. God made/makes no mistakes. He has planned everything out from the beginning of time until the very end, whenever that may be. What he didn't anticipate was defiance on the part of Adam and Eve. The reason for their disobedience...FREE WILL, which God gave them. The moment they ate from that tree, the perfect beings God intended us to be significantly changed. Adam and Eve were no longer innocent and pure, which means the price to be paid from there forward was that Adam and Eve would produce imperfect beings as they themselves were no longer perfect. Since they were created to populate the earth, perfection was no longer possible due to their colossal mistake and direct defiance against God. He is merciful and loving, but He also becomes angry and punishes those who deliberately act out against Him. WE, sinful human beings, are the product of Adam and Eve's decision to disobey. That mistake and others made by humans thereafter would later be redeemed by Jesus to carry out God's original plan for purity which brings it all back full circle to the fact that God is perfection and makes no mistakes. His agenda has never faltered.
This of course is what I've learned and believe to be true. Everyone has their own interpretation and I've always found different views helpful and interesting.
~ Ice Queen
Genesis 2:21, "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;"
Hebrew -- Bereshit - 2:21 God then made the man fall into a deep state of unconsciousness, and he slept. He took one of his ribs and closed the flesh in its place.
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When I had my "near-death" -- the consciousness changed and there was an awareness without feeling. It is interesting to me that when I did my study of the Hebrew texts -- the line above represented a sleep that still exists. It is a form of consciousness and unconsciousness. God exists in our unconsciousness. When the scripture refers to the running and hiding part -- I feel it is a metaphroical reference to coming aware in a conscious manner. We hid from "God" in our normal walk around conscious frame of mind. When I did have my "near-death" -- I later told people,
"I just woke up for a short time. I am now back asleep again."
Life in the world of man was about sleeping in a shadow body. (physical body) With that - came a conscious state of mind - seperate from the unconscious state of mind, where mystery and truth dwell.
I once talked to a fellow musician about my "near-death." I told him about a memory I had afterwards where -- while in transistion between this realm of reality - and the reality of our creation -- I found myself in travel and felt a connection to every living soul on the planet. I could see, feel, hear, and comprehend (in a spiritual manner) all living beings on the planet at the same instant. I could see through the eyes of a woman in Hong Kong, and at the same time, I could see life through the eyes of a man in Russia. When I came back into the physical body again afterwards -- this sensation was too much for me, (in a limited conscious state of mind,) to comprehend fully. In a normal conscious state of mind -- it is hard to comprehend a billion lifes at once. While I was out of the physical body and away from the conscious mind, and in a spiritual body in an unconscious state of mind, -- it was a normal equation to ponder.
All in All is all we are.
Every thing is connected. We are just limited to our comprehension on a conscious level to fully understand the connection.
Sincerely,
DKing
The open mind of religion once again.
To be so sure and devoted to something with such little evidence is setting yourself up for a big fall, all it could take is one moment of doubt and his whole life may suddenly feel empty and in vein.
Thats not to say I totally disbelieve in a god, just highly sceptical.
Doubt -- (philosophy) method of philosophical questioning: a method of questioning claims to knowledge, especially in the philosophy of Descartes.
Sceptical - doubtful: tending not to believe or accept things but to question them.
[13th century. Via Old French doter < Latin dubitare "be uncertain" < dubius "uncertain"]
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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When I was a child, I had nightly visitations from a transcendental being of spiritual intelligence. I was trying to study and comprehend the world we live in away from my former existence beyond this realm of reality. The strife, grief, and overall discontentment of life was dragging my young mind down into thoughts and feelings of misery. I wanted to know how to cope mentally with the problems of this world, -- while absent (in mind) from my former world.
Prior to one visit -- I had been given complicated formulas about "hate, envy, fear, jealousy, anger, etc." They feed upon one another and bring about a state of misery and discontentment. I wanted to know the secret to contentment or harmony while in human form. The transcendental being said the trick was KNOWing the LOVE of Creation. That was easy for the transcendental being to put into English words -- yet it was another thing for my young mind to comprehend.
"HOW do you KNOW that?"
I was told,
"You ask your Creator* for knowledge of that Love." (The being used the
word "Father.")
For my young child's mind -- that was too simple.
"If it is all that simple -- then why in the world isn't every one in the world doing it -- and ending all the problems with hate, anger, grief, and MISERY? You got to be mistaken."
The trancendental being pointed out my doubt and said,
"That is why. Doubt in the world of man is strong and has a pull unto gravity. It weighs heavy on the mind and keeps people from the simplicity of knowing the love of their Father. Simple truth of the matter is -- all they need to do is simply ask their Father -- for the knowledge they need to overcome their misery and discontentment. They over look the simplicty for the more complicated equations -- just as your young mind has in this moment. You doubted the Love of your Father and that kept you from asking your Father a simple question."
I was told you have to ask with expectation. You have to walk and talk with the full expectation of recieving exactly what you asked for.
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Gospel of Philip --
122. Cultivation in the world is thru four modes — (crops) are gathered into the barn thru earth and water and wind and light. And the cultivation by God is likewise thru four: trust and hope and love and recognition. Our earth is trust in which we take root, the water is hope thru which we are nourished, the wind is love thru which we grow, yet the light is recognition thru which we ripen. [...] (Ph 116)
MODE
(122): Greek EIDOC ("form")--the term for the Platonic forms (often as IDEA) as well as the Aristotelian species; note also the evident allusion to the four primary elements of ancient physics: earth, water, air, and fire (recast in modern formulation as the four basic states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma)
TRUST
Greek ICTIC ("trust, faith")--not mere factual opinion, but rather personal confidence in someone or something
HOPE
Greek ELIC ("expectation")--not mere wishing, but rather anticipation
LOVE
Coptic ME(PE) // Greek AGAATE ALLHLOYC ("be-compassionate with-one-another!")
RECOGNITION
(116): Coptic COOYN = Greek GNWCIC ("gnosis")--this important term means personal acquaintance rather than mere intellectual knowledge.
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To me, and from my personal experience concerning the nature and truth of our Creation --that knowledge can only come from the Creators. The only one who can prove "God's" existence to you --- is you and God.
Just simply ask and expect to recieve it in due time.
Sincerely,
DKing
Man, you are very convinced! I do have a clear head but I get the feeling if science determined tomorrow that God exists and that Jesus existed, and that he performed miracles, you would still not believe it.
I am pretty sure that God will not be proven scientifically in our lifetime, because it will be too conflicting with the current state of science. NOT BECAUSE GOD DOESN'T EXIST. I looks to me like your absolutism in science has closed your mind and has also made you a hypocrite. There are many things you probably believe to be true that are not proven with science. You have just chosen to not believe in God for a host of reasons.
Archeaology has done more to prove out the historical accuracy of the Bible than disprove it, and that is science. Why not give that a shot if you want to rely on proven facts only.
God didn't say believe in him only when the your finite minds and science catch up to me. That would be totally unfair to all the human beings that existed prior to technology that could prove his existence.
Keep an open mind, there is more to life than meets the eye.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Getting a bit dramatic there, eh, Frances?
You confirmed my statement that 'Good' in relative, not absolute. That was all I was saying... the Good you see may not be the good as others see. A soldier killing your child (a soldier in a different uniform) in a warzone is not seen as good by everyone. It all depends on which uniform is on your side.
As for your other examples... donations for a tax write-off.... good? And as for helpng the poor and less fortunate... these are things we SHOULD be doing because we are human. They should not be the exception... they should be the norm. We are humans, not animals. animals live by the strongest shall survive... but, we are supposed to be the strongest helps the weakest... the fortunate should help the less fortunate... the rich should help, not forsake the poor... of course, this is relative to my view. I mentioned evolution no where... or Santa Claus, either.
And speaking of Santa Claus... I like Santa Claus. But, I know that lying is wrong. am I good for prolonging this lie to my little niece? Would i be 'good' to tell her the truth... that her parents have been lying to her about this all of her life?
It's all relative and not absolute.
Hail, Hail!!!
i live without sin.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say