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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    NoK wrote:
    Lets see.. say hypothetically a very close family member of yours was accused of knowing information about a dirty bomb.. taken away and tortured using this technique.. kept telling them he/she knew nothing.. but it continued.. until they realised "oops he/she might actually be telling the truth".. how will you feel? its alright.. it only happened once, twice, three times.. water under the bridge.. no wait straight in ur face not under the bridge

    do you think this is done to random people? if my family member had information regrading a dirty bomb, then yes. i'm all for it.
  • NoK
    NoK Posts: 824
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    Some people think that if torture leaves no visible marks then nothing really happened, and it's acceptable.

    The real damage that occurs with torturing a person is not the physical portion. as that portion heals for the most part. It's the emotional damage that is the worst part of the process, and that takes many, many years to heal (if it ever really does).

    Arguing torturing on physical technicalities is quite rediculous. It's the act itself.

    It's like arguing rape is not as bad if the rapist uses KY jelly.

    It's ok.. theres no sugar.

    (Do you guys get that ad in the US)
  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    Thecure wrote:
    if the war on iraq leads to great middle east would Bush be seen as a head of the time. no "yes or no" answer please.


    No!

    It won't be anything near the wet dream Bush and co. or any other conqueror from the last hundred and fifty years that has wished, dreamt, saliitated or killed for. The middle east (countries) have lasted longer then Yugoslavia did, but that may be more for the ruthless dictators that have been running the show. And the hand on the throat to surpress any kind of uprising.

    The fact that Bush won't let Iraqi oil be state run is a good example of the leagacy he will leave there.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • NoK
    NoK Posts: 824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    do you think this is done to random people? if my family member had information regrading a dirty bomb, then yes. i'm all for it.

    It might not be done to random people but it has been done to people who had no knowledge or links to bombs or terrorism. Thus, my question stands.. A TRUSTED FAMILY MEMBER OF YOURS WHO YOU KNOW WILL NEVER HAVE ANY LINKS TO THIS SHIT YET HE IS ACCUSED AND TORTURED THEN TOLD "SORRY".. does that make it ok because it only happened a few times?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    Some people think that if torture leaves no visible marks then nothing really happened, and it's acceptable.

    The real damage that occurs with torturing a person is not the physical portion. as that portion heals for the most part. It's the emotional damage that is the worst part of the process, and that takes many, many years to heal (if it ever really does).

    Arguing torturing on physical technicalities is quite rediculous. It's the act itself.

    It's like arguing rape is not as bad if the rapist uses KY jelly.

    you think this is all for fun? the mind fuck of waterboarding is/was used to get information to help prevent another 9/11 or even a dirty bomb. should they have a tickle fight?

    rapist rape for a variety of reasons, none of which are used to get information to help potential save millions of innocent people.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    NoK wrote:
    It might not be done to random people but it has been done to people who had no knowledge or links to bombs or terrorism. Thus, my question stands.. A TRUSTED FAMILY MEMBER OF YOURS WHO YOU KNOW WILL NEVER HAVE ANY LINKS TO THIS SHIT YET HE IS ACCUSED AND TORTURED THEN TOLD "SORRY".. does that make it ok because it only happened a few times?

    people do not end up on a waterboarding table for no reason. even if that person checks out innocent, there is a reason he/she ended up on that table in the first place.
  • NoK
    NoK Posts: 824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    you think this is all for fun? the mind fuck of waterboarding is/was used to get information to help prevent another 9/11 or even a dirty bomb. should they have a tickle fight?

    rapist rape for a variety of reasons, none of which are used to get information to help potential save millions of innocent people.

    What if that technique doesn't work? Do you go harder?

    Do you really expect angry soldiers to stop at that technique if they wont say anything?

    "oh we can drown him but if he doesnt speak then its ok dont touch him anymore"
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    you think this is all for fun? the mind fuck of waterboarding is/was used to get information to help prevent another 9/11 or even a dirty bomb. should they have a tickle fight?

    rapist rape for a variety of reasons, none of which are used to get information to help potential save millions of innocent people.

    the problem with the logic of using torture to prevent another attack is that the information received during torture is for the most part unreliable. Time and time again experts have come forwards with the same message that information gained under conditions if torture is mostly unreliable because the suspect will tell you what ever you want to hear in order for the torture the stop. So by employing techniques like waterboarding we are not gaining an advantage, like the Bush administration would lead us to think. It is probably doing the opposit by providing misinformation that may detract our sources from following other, maybe more credible, leads.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • NoK
    NoK Posts: 824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    people do not end up on a waterboarding table for no reason. even if that person checks out innocent, there is a reason he/she ended up on that table in the first place.

    Yes and it has been shown previously the reason was wrong.

    Does that make it ok?
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    jlew24asu wrote:
    you think this is all for fun? the mind fuck of waterboarding is/was used to get information to help prevent another 9/11 or even a dirty bomb. should they have a tickle fight?

    rapist rape for a variety of reasons, none of which are used to get information to help potential save millions of innocent people.

    Well it surely isn't going to stop it from happening. All it will do is make a new new breed of tortured and resentful Islamic lunatics.

    That is unless one thinks the Iraq war is a success, and all of Islam can be converted.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    NoK wrote:
    What if that technique doesn't work? Do you go harder?
    no, I would never accept direct physical harm like cutting off hands or something. I'm no expert, I would hope there are other, non violent, techniques that work.
    NoK wrote:
    Do you really expect angry soldiers to stop at that technique if they wont say anything?
    yes
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    jlew24asu wrote:
    people do not end up on a waterboarding table for no reason. even if that person checks out innocent, there is a reason he/she ended up on that table in the first place.

    thats one of the more naive and uninformed things i may have ever read here
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    my2hands wrote:
    work on your humor.

    see post above and i will thoroughly run laps around your ass in this debate my friend. pick an issue, any issue listed above. and if you rewally want to get owned please pick torture

    this should be easy

    this is the lamest, most bragging post i've seen anyone make, not counting myself.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    the problem with the logic of using torture to prevent another attack is that the information received during torture is for the most part unreliable. Time and time again experts have come forwards with the same message that information gained under conditions if torture is mostly unreliable because the suspect will tell you what ever you want to hear in order for the torture the stop. So by employing techniques like waterboarding we are not gaining an advantage, like the Bush administration would lead us to think. It is probably doing the opposit by providing misinformation that may detract our sources from following other, maybe more credible, leads.

    I wish we both had solid proof, but we dont. i'm not pro torture. but I do want every means possible used to prevent another 9/11 or worse.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    my2hands wrote:
    thats one of the more naive and uninformed things i may have ever read here

    again with your debating skills. how am I wrong?
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I wish we both had solid proof, but we dont. i'm not pro torture. but I do want every means possible used to prevent another 9/11 or worse.

    No we don't have irrefutable proof but there have been so many experts who have consistantly said the samething, that information gained from toruture is usually unreliable. Are they 100% correct? Probably not but they probably do know what they are talking about so I tend to agree with them.

    Even if the information we did receive was reliable how low do we have to sink in the name of security. I understand wanted to prevent an attack that may result in thousands of deaths and injuries but at what cost. Where do we draw the line, waterboarding, electrocution, pulling out fingernails, beatings. At some point the line between our government operatives and the people we are fighting against begins to be blurred. Do we really want to cross over to the other side for securities sake.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    people do not end up on a waterboarding table for no reason. even if that person checks out innocent, there is a reason he/she ended up on that table in the first place.

    that is dead wrong. false accusations and convictions are made all the time, ESPECIALLY when there is mass public hysteria and paranoia. see the joe mccarthy communist hunt and the salem witch trials. people panic and turn on their neighbors out of fear or whatever else. there is no way everyone in american prisons as enemy combatants right now is guilty. in fact, i know personally people who have been in those prisons and investigated those people and they say overwhelmingly the people being held have done nothing at all remotely related to terrorism.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    my2hands wrote:
    thats one of the more naive and uninformed things i may have ever read here

    There is no need to insult someone simply because you don't share their views.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    I think with every new step into the minds of darkness the US loses a bit more of it's international reputation, and more people become wary of true intentions. Validated or not.

    Stoop to the terrorist level (perceived or not) and you might as well be the terrorist.

    It's a quick ride down, but along way up on that slippery slope.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    No we don't have irrefutable proof but there have been so many experts who have consistantly said the samething, that information gained from toruture is usually unreliable. Are they 100% correct? Probably not but they probably do know what they are talking about so I tend to agree with them.
    where are these experts? and how many attacks have been prevented? we dont have these answers.
    mammasan wrote:
    Even if the information we did receive was reliable how low do we have to sink in the name of security. I understand wanted to prevent an attack that may result in thousands of deaths and injuries but at what cost. Where do we draw the line, waterboarding, electrocution, pulling out fingernails, beatings. At some point the line between our government operatives and the people we are fighting against begins to be blurred. Do we really want to cross over to the other side for securities sake.
    grey area, no question about it.

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