You Are Being Lied To About PIRATES

24

Comments

  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    one more thing (not to highjack the thread)


    but this all started when the government of Somalia collapsed in '91. the international forces move in, dumped toxic waste (cost $2 a ton in Somalia-$1000 a ton in europe) and started fishing the seas


    the fisherman banded together, almost organically, and sent out speed boats to collect taxes on the ships fishing the waters and dumping waste. it started as a tax. naturally the internationals refused. so the next time the fishermen brought guns.

    their actions were a response to what was being done to them.


    and when you consider $300 million is taken from Somali waters every year, taking action 450 miles out to sea seems completely justified.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 40,231
    Commy wrote:
    one more thing (not to highjack the thread)


    but this all started when the government of Somalia collapsed in '91. the international forces move in, dumped toxic waste (cost $2 a ton in Somalia-$1000 a ton in europe) and started fishing the seas


    the fisherman banded together, almost organically, and sent out speed boats to collect taxes on the ships fishing the waters and dumping waste. it started as a tax. naturally the internationals refused. so the next time the fishermen brought guns.

    their actions were a response to what was being done to them.


    and when you consider $300 million is taken from Somali waters every year, taking action 450 miles out to sea seems completely justified.
    So does capping their ass when they have hostages.
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  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    mickeyrat wrote:
    So does capping their ass when they have hostages.


    which gives them the perfect excuse to do the same the next time they board a ship.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 40,231
    Commy wrote:
    mickeyrat wrote:
    So does capping their ass when they have hostages.


    which gives them the perfect excuse to do the same the next time they board a ship.
    May take longer, but wouldn't you say electing SOME form of effective govrnment and working for a better solution than extortion would get more people behind their cause?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Of course that needs to be in the works, but the primary focus of these people is their own survival and making a living - correct? No one in Somalia asked for foreign business's and boats to basically steal their industry, yet they are forced to deal with the consequences. And because they have been backed into a corner, and many don't like their response, it's their fault? Can't have it both ways.
    mickeyrat wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    mickeyrat wrote:
    So does capping their ass when they have hostages.

    which gives them the perfect excuse to do the same the next time they board a ship.
    May take longer, but wouldn't you say electing SOME form of effective govrnment and working for a better solution than extortion would get more people behind their cause?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    There's always two sides to the story..

    I say blow them out of the waters!! ARRrrrrr!!!!

    Sorry. I had to.


    Yes, they are desperate for the money. They have every right to do what they are doing as we have to protect our interests.. Choose sides if you want. Its just humans being humans. Personally, I don't plan on taking any cruises of the Somalian coast anytime soon.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I agree. I also enjoy the fact how little media attention has gone to the fact that because the Suez Canal raised its usage fees, so as a result, companies are now sailing around Africa and putting themselves into more dangerous waters like what we see in this situation. Anything to save a buck.
    There's always two sides to the story..

    Yes, they are desperate for the money. They have every right to do what they are doing as we have to protect our interests.. Choose sides if you want. Its just humans being humans. Personally, I don't plan on taking any cruises of the Somalian coast anytime soon.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • DinghyDogDinghyDog Posts: 587
    edited November 2012
    -
    Post edited by DinghyDog on
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    Commy wrote:
    they are not freedom fighters by any means, they steal ships and sell them back for MONEY, not in return for not dumping waste.




    they gotta eat though. the international fishing fleets don't leave anything behind for them to catch.


    instead of pirate ships maybe they should all fish instead, and beat the fisherman to the fish?? You can't seriously be defending the hijacking of ships and kidnapping of sailors for ransom.

    I never said anything about defending or sympathetic to ALL the pirates in the written article, just that there's another side to this story and it should be looked at. I said what some of these pirates are doing is dead wrong and some are looking for a quick buck. However, because of this illegal activity those European ships that are dumping toxic waste off the Somali Coast are now thinking twice about doing so.

    We would have the same scenario here in America if we had NO military force to protect our coastline. Would you want this on your coast that could affect your health and cut off a food source. I certainly wouldn't want such actions here in Palm Beach Florida.

    So those pirates who choose to defend their country against foriegn coastline destruction should do so in whatever means necessary, MORE POWER to them.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • ajedigeckoajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,430
    mickeyrat wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    mickeyrat wrote:
    So does capping their ass when they have hostages.


    which gives them the perfect excuse to do the same the next time they board a ship.
    May take longer, but wouldn't you say electing SOME form of effective govrnment and working for a better solution than extortion would get more people behind their cause?
    rules and laws......that would be the logical solution. except the people who are in control do not want rules and laws that are beneficial to their population.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Unfortunately that is how many people on the left view things, its always the west fault, we're the reason for the pirates, just how insane some people's thinking is.

    If you read the piece you would know it was European ships dumping these waste products on the Somali coastline and destroying their fishing industry, NOT the West. One of the smarter things we've done here in the US. We've only become interested in this story once American lives have been involved in this piracy at sea.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    FiveB247x wrote:
    In Noam Chomsky's book, "Pirates and Emperors, International Terrorism in the Real World", he tells this story, attributed to St. Augustine. A captured pirate was brought before Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?, said Alexander. How dare you molest the whole world?" replied the pirate and continued: "Because I do it with a little ship only I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy are called emperor."

    Nice quote, they spoke of something like that in the article at the beginning of this thread.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    g under p wrote:

    I never said anything about defending or sympathetic to ALL the pirates in the written article, just that there's another side to this story and it should be looked at. I said what some of these pirates are doing is dead wrong and some are looking for a quick buck. However, because of this illegal activity those European ships that are dumping toxic waste off the Somali Coast are now thinking twice about doing so.

    We would have the same scenario here in America if we had NO military force to protect our coastline. Would you want this on your coast that could affect your health and cut off a food source. I certainly wouldn't want such actions here in Palm Beach Florida.

    So those pirates who choose to defend their country against foriegn coastline destruction should do so in whatever means necessary, MORE POWER to them.

    Peace

    anyone else see the irony in ending your post with "Peace"
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I agree. I also enjoy the fact how little media attention has gone to the fact that because the Suez Canal raised its usage fees, so as a result, companies are now sailing around Africa and putting themselves into more dangerous waters like what we see in this situation. Anything to save a buck.
    These are ships that have passed or are going to pass through the Suez Canal....Somalia is located in the Horn of Africa....right where the Red Sea (and the Suez Canal) empty into the Indian Ocean.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    Pirates on Monday hijacked two Egyptian fishing boats carrying a total of between 18 and 24 people, the Egyptian Information Ministry told CNN.

    The Egyptian Foreign Ministry is working to end the hijacking, the ministry said.

    Egyptian boats are known to use Somali waters illegally for fishing, taking advantage of the lawless state of the country and the lack of enforcement of its maritime boundaries.


    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04 ... index.html
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    jlew24asu wrote:
    g under p wrote:

    I never said anything about defending or sympathetic to ALL the pirates in the written article, just that there's another side to this story and it should be looked at. I said what some of these pirates are doing is dead wrong and some are looking for a quick buck. However, because of this illegal activity those European ships that are dumping toxic waste off the Somali Coast are now thinking twice about doing so.

    We would have the same scenario here in America if we had NO military force to protect our coastline. Would you want this on your coast that could affect your health and cut off a food source. I certainly wouldn't want such actions here in Palm Beach Florida.

    So those pirates who choose to defend their country against foriegn coastline destruction should do so in whatever means necessary, MORE POWER to them.

    Peace


    anyone else see the irony in ending your post with "Peace"

    Does it bother you or should I just try WAR instead?

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    g under p wrote:

    Does it bother you or should I just try WAR instead?

    Peace

    no it doesnt bother me. I just found it ironic thats all. ending your post with KILL ALL WESTERNERS would have been more appropriate based on your post.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    jlew24asu wrote:
    g under p wrote:

    Does it bother you or should I just try WAR instead?

    Peace

    no it doesnt bother me. I just found it ironic thats all. ending your post with KILL ALL WESTERNERS would have been more appropriate based on your post.

    Not really in this case it's all about the Europeans not necessarily the West.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    g under p wrote:
    Not really in this case it's all about the Europeans not necessarily the West.

    Peace

    I apologize. KILL ALL EUROPEANS.

    ok much better. :roll:
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    g under p wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    g under p wrote:

    Does it bother you or should I just try WAR instead?

    Peace

    no it doesnt bother me. I just found it ironic thats all. ending your post with KILL ALL WESTERNERS would have been more appropriate based on your post.

    Not really in this case it's all about the Europeans not necessarily the West.

    Peace


    Just to clairify something, when people use the term "the west" when speaking about the world they are talking about North America and Western Europe. The east is eastern europe and Asia, which is why China and Japan are typically referred to as the Far East.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Actually it has been mentioned significanctly that many of these ships have been going around Africa in order to avoid paying the Suez Canal fees.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/04/ ... g_det.html

    tybird wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I agree. I also enjoy the fact how little media attention has gone to the fact that because the Suez Canal raised its usage fees, so as a result, companies are now sailing around Africa and putting themselves into more dangerous waters like what we see in this situation. Anything to save a buck.
    These are ships that have passed or are going to pass through the Suez Canal....Somalia is located in the Horn of Africa....right where the Red Sea (and the Suez Canal) empty into the Indian Ocean.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Actually it has been mentioned significanctly that many of these ships have been going around Africa in order to avoid paying the Suez Canal fees.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/04/ ... g_det.html

    tybird wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I agree. I also enjoy the fact how little media attention has gone to the fact that because the Suez Canal raised its usage fees, so as a result, companies are now sailing around Africa and putting themselves into more dangerous waters like what we see in this situation. Anything to save a buck.
    These are ships that have passed or are going to pass through the Suez Canal....Somalia is located in the Horn of Africa....right where the Red Sea (and the Suez Canal) empty into the Indian Ocean.
    Interesting....hugging the coast prior to movement towards the Arabian Pennisula??? :?
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Apparently companies save money cause the fuel coast of going around Africa is cheaper than going through the Suez Canal.
    tybird wrote:
    Interesting....hugging the coast prior to movement towards the Arabian Pennisula??? :?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Apparently companies save money cause the fuel coast of going around Africa is cheaper than going through the Suez Canal.
    tybird wrote:
    Interesting....hugging the coast prior to movement towards the Arabian Pennisula??? :?
    Very interesting....considering also the time factor...much longer delivery time around the Cape....I wonder if they pass the cost of feeding the crews onto the customer or the crew?
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • Dirtie_FrankDirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    What else they are neglegting to say is that they have earned $600 million from ransoms paid. Then they buy weapons from different groups to continue the lawlessness in Somalia.
    96 Randall's Island II
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  • Staceb10Staceb10 Posts: 675
    Are you kidding me? A lot of these pirates are teenagers with assault rifles holding commercial vessels for ransom and kidnapping the crew members. I'm sure they are doing that to "protect" the illegal fish trade and not for the million dollars a boat they want for ransom. Was the Alabama fishing or dumping waste? What about the boats they took today?
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I'm not necessarily defending their right to hijack ships or people, but one aspect of these encounters is the key fact that many of them have varying reasons for carrying out these acts. Some are for money, but some do it to combat environmental dumping the rich, industrialized nations do off the coast of Somalia as well as kill their fishing industry which they rely on for food, trade and survival. It is not merely a black and white issue as people want to make it seem. We can sit here and say they're wrong for acting in this manner, but they can justifiably so point the finger right back at us for our wrong-doings in this matter. It's a matter of sovereignty and moral standing. Here's a few articles about the topics I mentioned. Also, I'm not denying the portion about Somalia having no government and some of this being done simply for money or Warlords, but there is another side of this story which is not being discussed and does hold merit.

    http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gVV ... mVc5McYV-Q

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 817.html... Read More

    http://insidesomalia.org/20090403498/Ne ... ermen.html

    Staceb10 wrote:
    Are you kidding me? A lot of these pirates are teenagers with assault rifles holding commercial vessels for ransom and kidnapping the crew members. I'm sure they are doing that to "protect" the illegal fish trade and not for the million dollars a boat they want for ransom. Was the Alabama fishing or dumping waste? What about the boats they took today?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Staceb10 wrote:
    Are you kidding me? A lot of these pirates are teenagers with assault rifles holding commercial vessels for ransom and kidnapping the crew members. I'm sure they are doing that to "protect" the illegal fish trade and not for the million dollars a boat they want for ransom. Was the Alabama fishing or dumping waste? What about the boats they took today?

    it may have come to that (do you have any links showing this is standard?)


    but it started as an organic response to the illegal dumping and fishing.

    and what do you expect them to do, just take enough to cover their costs from the overfishing? that's $300 million. how much should they charge companies to dump nuclear waste in their waters? another $300 million?

    looks like they're just breaking even. (ignoring casualties from the toxic waste)
  • Staceb10Staceb10 Posts: 675
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I'm not necessarily defending their right to hijack ships or people, but one aspect of these encounters is the key fact that many of them have varying reasons for carrying out these acts. Some are for money, but some do it to combat environmental dumping the rich, industrialized nations do off the coast of Somalia as well as kill their fishing industry which they rely on for food, trade and survival. It is not merely a black and white issue as people want to make it seem. We can sit here and say they're wrong for acting in this manner, but they can justifiably so point the finger right back at us for our wrong-doings in this matter. It's a matter of sovereignty and moral standing. Here's a few articles about the topics I mentioned. Also, I'm not denying the portion about Somalia having no government and some of this being done simply for money or Warlords, but there is another side of this story which is not being discussed and does hold merit.

    http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gVV ... mVc5McYV-Q

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 817.html... Read More

    http://insidesomalia.org/20090403498/Ne ... ermen.html

    Staceb10 wrote:
    Are you kidding me? A lot of these pirates are teenagers with assault rifles holding commercial vessels for ransom and kidnapping the crew members. I'm sure they are doing that to "protect" the illegal fish trade and not for the million dollars a boat they want for ransom. Was the Alabama fishing or dumping waste? What about the boats they took today?

    There is always another side to the story. I'm sure there are some that are doing it because of the fishing and dumping but I don't buy that is the agenda for the majority. I'm more inclined to think its the 600 million they've gotten already. Where did that money go I wonder?
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Well as I stated before, you may question the actions, but just as we can point the finger at them for their wrong-doing, they can point the finger back at us for wrong-doing. And since you keep bringing up the subject of arms - where exactly do you think they buy these arms from?.... I'll give you one good guess.. the same countries who are fishing, dumping and complaining about the lawlessness of Somalia.

    http://friendsofethiopia.blogspot.com/2 ... rease.html




    [/quote]There is always another side to the story. I'm sure there are some that are doing it because of the fishing and dumping but I don't buy that is the agenda for the majority. I'm more inclined to think its the 600 million they've gotten already. Where did that money go I wonder?[/quote]
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
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