I think the Somali fishermen have become the pirates somewhat. what started as an organic response to overfishing and illegal dumping has turned into very profitable industry for them.
it may be all about the money NOW, (as the american ship they hijacked the other day was carrying food relief to africa) but the context is still relevant.
the instigators in this conflict shouldn't be the ones to control it now.
how does that look? some international ships come in, over fish the waters, dump nuclear waste and move on. when the locals group together to stop it the international ships come back with guns? how is that right?
I think the Somali fishermen have become the pirates somewhat. what started as an organic response to overfishing and illegal dumping has turned into very profitable industry for them.
it may be all about the money NOW, (as the american ship they hijacked the other day was carrying food relief to africa) but the context is still relevant.
the instigators in this conflict shouldn't be the ones to control it now.
how does that look? some international ships come in, over fish the waters, dump nuclear waste and move on. when the locals group together to stop it the international ships come back with guns? how is that right?
bring in the UN i say.
the exact same thought occured to me as well today........except for the UN aspect.
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
Yeah you got me - it's all just another Leftist conspiracy theory.... :roll:
As I previously stated, it's not soley about fishing and dumping, but it does have it's impact on the situation. I'd guess the greed compared to social issues ratio is 50-50.... but as you show, it's easy to disprove when you don't want to see or acknowledge that part.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I understand the illegal dumping and fishing aspect of it but I honestly don't believe that is now the motive of these pirates. They are receiving millions of dollars and I haven't seen any explanation for where that money goes. Do they use it to help people that are sick because of the toxic waste? Are they using it to help feed people or build homes or establish a proper government or anything productive to change whatsoever? Or are they just using it to buy more guns and weapons and possibly funding terrorist groups? How is targeting US ships and threatening to kill the sailors, which is what they say they are doing now, in any way related to the problem of private European companies dumping waste and overfishing?
You're jumping from A to Z with leaving out the middle portion. These pirates weren't targeting US military vessicles or sailors until the a cargo ship with US civillians was being held and the US confronting them and engaging the conflict to get the civilians back; thus the pirates then declared they were going after the US. Also, there isn't a 100% certainty where the money is going other than to people within Somalia... perhaps its arms, drugs, etc... or directly to the warlords running the provinces. We honestly don't know for sure. You are making equations towards proper government and productive measure but aren't recognizing the reality of the situation in Somalia. It is a lawless nation with warlords running the show.. they lack organization, law, rule and the foundations to have the things you are asking for... and if you want to discuss that matter, this entire discussion comes full circle because the Western, industrialized nations have their hands in the mess that is Somalia.
I understand the illegal dumping and fishing aspect of it but I honestly don't believe that is now the motive of these pirates. They are receiving millions of dollars and I haven't seen any explanation for where that money goes. Do they use it to help people that are sick because of the toxic waste? Are they using it to help feed people or build homes or establish a proper government or anything productive to change whatsoever? Or are they just using it to buy more guns and weapons and possibly funding terrorist groups? How is targeting US ships and threatening to kill the sailors, which is what they say they are doing now, in any way related to the problem of private European companies dumping waste and overfishing?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
the west comes, steals their resources, dumps toxic waste in their oceans, and wonders why there is resistance.
apparently the pirates are more organized than the term suggests.
THEY ARE POOR FISHERMEN WHO HOLD CARGO SHIPS FOR RANSOME!
ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY DO IT FOR MONEY!! YOU THINK THEY RANSOME BOATS FOR MILLIONS B/C THEY CARE ABOUT THE WATER?
WAKE THE FUCK UP!
Get em a Body Bag Yeeeeeaaaaa!
Sweep the Leg Johnny.
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
the west comes, steals their resources, dumps toxic waste in their oceans, and wonders why there is resistance.
apparently the pirates are more organized than the term suggests.
THEY ARE POOR FISHERMEN WHO HOLD CARGO SHIPS FOR RANSOME!
ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY DO IT FOR MONEY!! YOU THINK THEY RANSOME BOATS FOR MILLIONS B/C THEY CARE ABOUT THE WATER?
WAKE THE FUCK UP!
Chill my man, chill. The simple point of my posting of this piece was just to point out that there's another side to this story that's simply NOT being reported. I'm NOT condoning what these pirates are doing, people are being killed and injured NOTHING about that fact is right.
I watch Fox News, CNN and some of the others and I have not heard them report on this aspect on the dumping of toxic waste which in turn is making people sick and damaging the fishery off the coast of Somalia. This is how this got started, how these people were trying to protect their waters and over the years has morphed into outright criminal piracy. These people saw something that appeared to be a easy way to get money and they've jumped on it.
Eventually over time this will all cease, it's just that I'd like a tv station like Fox News (Fair and Balanced) and others try and report the other side of this story.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
the west comes, steals their resources, dumps toxic waste in their oceans, and wonders why there is resistance.
apparently the pirates are more organized than the term suggests.
THEY ARE POOR FISHERMEN WHO HOLD CARGO SHIPS FOR RANSOME!
ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY DO IT FOR MONEY!! YOU THINK THEY RANSOME BOATS FOR MILLIONS B/C THEY CARE ABOUT THE WATER?
WAKE THE FUCK UP!
lol. if you saw it on tv it must be true.
my local news either calls them pirates or muslims. yes, muslims. like that has fuckall to do with it.
whatever their intentions now, it started as true libertarian justice. locals trying to collect fines, as ships were taking some $300 million in fish and lobster from their waters. They should be compensated right? naturally the international companies refused to pay the fines, so the fishermen started bringing guns.
here we are today.
saying they are "all about the money" or something like that, while maybe true to some extent, ignores the context of the situation, which i think is the point of the thread.
my local news either calls them pirates or muslims. yes, muslims. like that has fuckall to do with it.
whatever their intentions now, it started as true libertarian justice. locals trying to collect fines, as ships were taking some $300 million in fish and lobster from their waters. They should be compensated right? naturally the international companies refused to pay the fines, so the fishermen started bringing guns.
here we are today.
saying they are "all about the money" or something like that, while maybe true to some extent, ignores the context of the situation, which i think is the point of the thread.
I'm still not buying this bullshit about fishing vessel stealing "their" fish. Somalia has almost 2000 miles of coastline. I dont care how many ships sail around, there has got to be plenty of fishing available for everyone. even more so considering the average Somali fishing ship can not be very big.
you, or someone else, said international fishing laws are vague and rarely followed. how much of the ocean does Somalia "own" ?
$300 million dollars in fish seems like nothing. like I said, its a really big fucking ocean. enough for everyone. and if they were really into libertarian justice, these pirates/fishermen would simply shoot at the "illegal" fishing boats in the area.
people like you only want to use these bullshit dumping and stealing stories as another reason to blame the west and big corporations for the worlds problems.
I'm still not buying this bullshit about fishing vessel stealing "their" fish. Somalia has almost 2000 miles of coastline. I dont care how many ships sail around, there has got to be plenty of fishing available for everyone. even more so considering the average Somali fishing ship can not be very big.
you, or someone else, said international fishing laws are vague and rarely followed. how much of the ocean does Somalia "own" ?
$300 million dollars in fish seems like nothing. like I said, its a really big fucking ocean. enough for everyone. and if they were really into libertarian justice, these pirates/fishermen would simply shoot at the "illegal" fishing boats in the area.
people like you only want to use these bullshit dumping and stealing stories as another reason to blame the west and big corporations for the worlds problems.
i'm not defending the pirates, I'm just trying to provide some context.
They didn't one day decide to start robbing ships. They were responding to something being done to their ocean. In my opinion.
I don't know. you ever see those crab fishing shows on discovery? the crab travel in groups,-like mile long groups packed together. when the commercial boats come in they do a pretty good job of getting most of them. its why they have quotas and a limited season, they could fish them to extinction, or damn close. a lot of fishing is like that. It is possible to overfish an area, to have a significant impact on the NUMBERS of fish. That's true anywhere, and why it needs to be regulated. And the commercial fleets in Somalia have no quotas, no regs at all. Nothing but the pirates to deal with.
its a matter of opinion now. I think they started as fishermen trying to collect fines-which is what they claim, and as a response to illegal dumping-which according to the UN includes nuclear waste. Both of which have had a devastating impact on the Somali coastline.
Ron Paul's solution is to hand out Letter's of Marque, like they did back in the day. Its basically a warrant for private citizens or groups to capture pirates. Which is really scary. Blackwater running around Somalia is the last thing they need. Random fishermen will end up in jail and Blackwater will still get paid. no thanks.
well you do have a point about over fishing. I suppose thats possible. I think we can both agree that we want 2 things to stop.....
piracy and the harassment of innocent Somali fisherman just trying to feed their families and communities.
yeah. it does seem apparent that the pirates aren't regulating shit. and the overfishing continues.
it needs to stop. but.
if there was a question as to the relevancy of the UN, I think this case answers that very well. The pirates are holding ships carrying food relief to Africa, and the international companies are still over fishing and dumping nuclear waste in their waters. An outside authority needs to be brought in.
but my guess is private mercenaries will be brought in to "deal" with the pirates. ie shoot them in the head. so the wonderful "trade" can continue, and all those european companies won' have to pay so much to dump their toxic waste. its cheaper...and as we know capitalism is driven by profit.
yeah. it does seem apparent that the pirates aren't regulating shit. and the overfishing continues.
it needs to stop. but.
if there was a question as to the relevancy of the UN, I think this case answers that very well. The pirates are holding ships carrying food relief to Africa, and the international companies are still over fishing and dumping nuclear waste in their waters. An outside authority needs to be brought in.
but my guess is private mercenaries will be brought in to "deal" with the pirates. ie shoot them in the head. so the wonderful "trade" can continue, and all those european companies won' have to pay so much to dump their toxic waste. its cheaper...and as we know capitalism is driven by profit.
that's not true actually. i can't point you to the specific report that proves it, but the UN has done extensive research regarding the waste being dumped.
and they've admitted to it.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, [says]: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it."
that isn't his opinion. they've done tests on containers dumped there.
at Eel-dher district of Gal-gadud region, in the center of Somalia in April 1992 put out dark blue long barrels in which oily-liquid was filled. When samples taken from them were investigated, it was identified that such were deadly nuclear waste.
which also points to the devastating affects of overfishing.
A Swiss firm called Achair Parterns, and an Italian waste company called Progresso, made a deal with Ali Mahdi, that they could dump containers of waste material in Somali waters. These European companies were said to be paying Warlords about $3 a ton, whereas to properly dispose of waste in Europe costs about $1,000 a ton."
Somalia has no functioning government, and haven't since 91 or so. the locals had no one to turn to. hence piracy.
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The Pirates are the ones who lied. They told their fans they needed a new ballpark in order to compete and they still refuse to spend any money after getting their new stadium.
The Pirates are the ones who lied. They told their fans they needed a new ballpark in order to compete and they still refuse to spend any money after getting their new stadium.
they are not freedom fighters by any means, they steal ships and sell them back for MONEY, not in return for not dumping waste.
So why do they not only target the polluters and trawlers.
These people are modern pirates. Simple as that. I was actually at a Christmas eve party with an Australian naval officer ( husband of a great friend. He has come back from his tour in that region .
And we discussed his work in the area at length. These people are crooks. Thieves and murderers. It's that simple
They take what's not theirs, they kill they kidnap
Stop making excuses for them
ARE YOU KIDDIN ME???? PIRATES DONT CARE ABOUT THE WATERS! They would be raping their women and MEN even more if they didnt have anything to make money doing! They would be whipping and beating Christians if they didnt have boats to steal! They dont care about anything! They dont even become civil for their own benefits.....they see today for themselves and thats it, and you think they are stealing boats to sell for money because we pass through 50 miles out? LOL WOW You gotta be a CODE PINK LIB!
Theres no time like the present
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
ARE YOU KIDDIN ME???? PIRATES DONT CARE ABOUT THE WATERS! They would be raping their women and MEN even more if they didnt have anything to make money doing! They would be whipping and beating Christians if they didnt have boats to steal! They dont care about anything! They dont even become civil for their own benefits.....they see today for themselves and thats it, and you think they are stealing boats to sell for money because we pass through 50 miles out? LOL WOW You gotta be a CODE PINK LIB!
Comments
it may be all about the money NOW, (as the american ship they hijacked the other day was carrying food relief to africa) but the context is still relevant.
the instigators in this conflict shouldn't be the ones to control it now.
how does that look? some international ships come in, over fish the waters, dump nuclear waste and move on. when the locals group together to stop it the international ships come back with guns? how is that right?
bring in the UN i say.
As I previously stated, it's not soley about fishing and dumping, but it does have it's impact on the situation. I'd guess the greed compared to social issues ratio is 50-50.... but as you show, it's easy to disprove when you don't want to see or acknowledge that part.
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5827
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY DO IT FOR MONEY!! YOU THINK THEY RANSOME BOATS FOR MILLIONS B/C THEY CARE ABOUT THE WATER?
WAKE THE FUCK UP!
Sweep the Leg Johnny.
Chill my man, chill. The simple point of my posting of this piece was just to point out that there's another side to this story that's simply NOT being reported. I'm NOT condoning what these pirates are doing, people are being killed and injured NOTHING about that fact is right.
I watch Fox News, CNN and some of the others and I have not heard them report on this aspect on the dumping of toxic waste which in turn is making people sick and damaging the fishery off the coast of Somalia. This is how this got started, how these people were trying to protect their waters and over the years has morphed into outright criminal piracy. These people saw something that appeared to be a easy way to get money and they've jumped on it.
Eventually over time this will all cease, it's just that I'd like a tv station like Fox News (Fair and Balanced) and others try and report the other side of this story.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
lol. if you saw it on tv it must be true.
my local news either calls them pirates or muslims. yes, muslims. like that has fuckall to do with it.
whatever their intentions now, it started as true libertarian justice. locals trying to collect fines, as ships were taking some $300 million in fish and lobster from their waters. They should be compensated right? naturally the international companies refused to pay the fines, so the fishermen started bringing guns.
here we are today.
saying they are "all about the money" or something like that, while maybe true to some extent, ignores the context of the situation, which i think is the point of the thread.
I'm still not buying this bullshit about fishing vessel stealing "their" fish. Somalia has almost 2000 miles of coastline. I dont care how many ships sail around, there has got to be plenty of fishing available for everyone. even more so considering the average Somali fishing ship can not be very big.
you, or someone else, said international fishing laws are vague and rarely followed. how much of the ocean does Somalia "own" ?
$300 million dollars in fish seems like nothing. like I said, its a really big fucking ocean. enough for everyone. and if they were really into libertarian justice, these pirates/fishermen would simply shoot at the "illegal" fishing boats in the area.
people like you only want to use these bullshit dumping and stealing stories as another reason to blame the west and big corporations for the worlds problems.
i'm not defending the pirates, I'm just trying to provide some context.
They didn't one day decide to start robbing ships. They were responding to something being done to their ocean. In my opinion.
I don't know. you ever see those crab fishing shows on discovery? the crab travel in groups,-like mile long groups packed together. when the commercial boats come in they do a pretty good job of getting most of them. its why they have quotas and a limited season, they could fish them to extinction, or damn close. a lot of fishing is like that. It is possible to overfish an area, to have a significant impact on the NUMBERS of fish. That's true anywhere, and why it needs to be regulated. And the commercial fleets in Somalia have no quotas, no regs at all. Nothing but the pirates to deal with.
its a matter of opinion now. I think they started as fishermen trying to collect fines-which is what they claim, and as a response to illegal dumping-which according to the UN includes nuclear waste. Both of which have had a devastating impact on the Somali coastline.
Ron Paul's solution is to hand out Letter's of Marque, like they did back in the day. Its basically a warrant for private citizens or groups to capture pirates. Which is really scary. Blackwater running around Somalia is the last thing they need. Random fishermen will end up in jail and Blackwater will still get paid. no thanks.
piracy and the harassment of innocent Somali fisherman just trying to feed their families and communities.
it needs to stop. but.
if there was a question as to the relevancy of the UN, I think this case answers that very well. The pirates are holding ships carrying food relief to Africa, and the international companies are still over fishing and dumping nuclear waste in their waters. An outside authority needs to be brought in.
but my guess is private mercenaries will be brought in to "deal" with the pirates. ie shoot them in the head. so the wonderful "trade" can continue, and all those european companies won' have to pay so much to dump their toxic waste. its cheaper...and as we know capitalism is driven by profit.
there is no proof of nuclear waste being dumped.
that's not true actually. i can't point you to the specific report that proves it, but the UN has done extensive research regarding the waste being dumped.
and they've admitted to it.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, [says]: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it."
that isn't his opinion. they've done tests on containers dumped there.
from http://www.geocities.com/gabobe/illegalfishing.html
which also points to the devastating affects of overfishing.
Somalia has no functioning government, and haven't since 91 or so. the locals had no one to turn to. hence piracy.
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrby's!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrCqVYVxEoA
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
http://news.yahoo.com/u-navy-rescues-iranian-hostages-held-pirates-162240700.html
That was nice of the US. The operation was staged from the same aircraft carrier that the Iranian navy has been threatening too.
So why do they not only target the polluters and trawlers.
These people are modern pirates. Simple as that. I was actually at a Christmas eve party with an Australian naval officer ( husband of a great friend. He has come back from his tour in that region .
And we discussed his work in the area at length. These people are crooks. Thieves and murderers. It's that simple
They take what's not theirs, they kill they kidnap
Stop making excuses for them
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
All people need to do more on every level!
that's not true
Damn man chill the fuck out!