Octuplets Mom

AmentsChick

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

This woman hasn't hurt anybody... YET... and most likely she won't. And money is neither an excuse to bring kids into the world nor an excuse not to. If you're resourceful, you can feed 14 people on fuck all money... maybe she has a HUGE vegetable garden... point is NOBODY KNOWS.

We do know that she was already receiving assistance (including food stamps) for the first six kids.

Also, I think one could make the argument that by bringing more children into the world when she couldn't support the first six, she *is* hurting her family.

If you can't afford to have a shitload of children, you shouldn't have them and expect other people to pitch in. Most people do consider their finances when planning their families. I would even give this lady a break if she became accidentally pregnant in this case. It is absolutely selfish to deliberately become pregnant when you can't afford the children you already have.

In addition to $600/month PER CHILD in disability for 3 of the older 6 who have autisim and ADHD.

decides2dream

Heineken Helen wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

and do you actually READ what you quote? fully?

i said right in there it was a POOR comparsion, but used it anyway since you started a thread on that topic, b/c it proves the basic point of showing we all judge people we do not know to varying degrees by information we seek out or are provided. period. nothing more, nothing less.

also, i did not call a retarded person a selifsh fuck.....i don't consider someone mentally retarded as being 'crazy'....that again, your inference. and i retracted the 'crazy' after your comments in any case. apparently that's not satisfactoy for you tho. YOU are drawing these parallels, not me.

and if there is NO point to trying to talk reasonably with someone who holds my opinions, why do keep doing so? if you don't actually *get* my point, i obviously must not have expressed myself clearly enough and then i apologize. however, it sems to me that many others DO get and understand my points, whether they agree or disagree, so i don't think it's my words. you disagree, fine....but obviously you cannot even understand my pov at all. that's fine too.


so yes, i avctually DO think of what i am saying.


funny tho.......you took ZERO issue with dunky making the poor comparison of flag-waving and female circumcision. at least i from the get-go said it was a poor comparison...but used it for illustrative purposes only. we all judge without fully knowing people. that was IT.

Nope, I stopped reading when you compared it to white supremacy. And the thing about calling a retarded person a selfish fuck was in response to AmentsChick who CLEARLY answered yes to that question and who I also quoted.

Fact is, you've given your opinion a million times in this thread and I really really really don't care... I'm just glad you won't have any say in whether a mother gets to keep her kids or not.

I didn't notice you retracted the 'crazy' cos I don't check old posts AFTER I've replied to them... do you?

I keep replying cos YOU Keep replying to me... how can you ask someone 'why do you keep replying?' THAT'S A QUESTION... a question is usually looking for an answer :shock:

I did say dunk's was a poor comparison... but I guess you didn't see that... and this is an entirely different thread... are you still all up in arms over the whole flag waving thing?????? :shock:

I HAVE judged people... but it's something i make a conscious effort not to do. I might decide I don't like somebody for whatever reason... but unless they've fucked ME over, I don't call them names or draw conclusions about them.

and btw - did i EVER once suggst these children be taken away from her? NO, i did not. i simply called her utterly selfish, and i think it was wrong.

i didn't remove it from my post...i actually retracted in a later post directed to you, in response to your very post ABOUT calling a retarded person selfish.

and i DID see you call it a poor comparison, but still said the point stood....that was my point. and no, i couldn't care less what you or dunky think on that topic..i was merely using it again, for illustrative purposes.



and your last statement is an outright lie. you judged white supremicists that you do not know, at all....and draw conclusions about them. personally, i say, rightly so! they put their opinions out on the internet and in the media for all to see, read, comment and form opinions! kinda like some mother who recently gave birth to octuplets!


btw - i too try not to judge people, overall, without getting to know them first..give the benefit of the doubt...etc. in this instance, ithe points i find wrong/offensive, i don't have to 'know' her at all! it's her ACTIONS, pure and simple, i think wrong. yes, i called her crazy.....oops! but me calling her selfish absolutely stands. her actions cearly illustrate a very selfish individual imo.


obviously many others *get* my point, even if they may disagree.

decides2dream

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

This woman hasn't hurt anybody... YET... and most likely she won't. And money is neither an excuse to bring kids into the world nor an excuse not to. If you're resourceful, you can feed 14 people on fuck all money... maybe she has a HUGE vegetable garden... point is NOBODY KNOWS.

We do know that she was already receiving assistance (including food stamps) for the first six kids.

Also, I think one could make the argument that by bringing more children into the world when she couldn't support the first six, she *is* hurting her family.

If you can't afford to have a shitload of children, you shouldn't have them and expect other people to pitch in. Most people do consider their finances when planning their families. I would even give this lady a break if she became accidentally pregnant in this case. It is absolutely selfish to deliberately become pregnant when you can't afford the children you already have.

exactly.
judging her actions and choices.....and it WAS her CHOICE to do all this.
how judgemental and wrong of me to actually think and say as much on a pearl jam message board.

decides2dream

Heineken Helen wrote:

If I reply to this you'll just ask why I keep replying... and there I've already done so YES D2D we ALL know you have a point of view and you will keep expressing it and for that reason, go on... have the last word cos I really really really don't care

no, i'd actually love to understand why you think it's a-ok for a mother to purposely do this simply b/c she wants to? you just say it's ok...but you never really give a reason why beyond it's her choice, money shouldn't come into it, etc. you truly believe that? you think the world owes you, me or her support? if i wanted to have 8 babies thru IVF, willingy chose to, and clearly had no means to support them, or my other children without others footing the bill...that's OK? that's not at all selfish, nor neglectful of the responsibilities i already have? b/c basically, that's all i am saying. now you may well believe that. i sure as shit don't.


you obviously do not understand my motivations at all for this conversation if you thinking i am looking for the last word, or as you first said i was 'jealous' of this woman, etc....ya know...judging me. we have very different povs, i just would like to gain understanding of how you come to see this from the angle you do when i clearly see it sooo differently.

Lizard

What she CHOSE to do was WRONG.

I don't care if she has a garden the size of a football field
I don't care if she has a loom to make her own clothes
I don't care if she can home school them all through college
I don't care if she gives herself her manicures or injects her own lips

IT WAS NOT RIGHT.


(Last word)

Heineken Helen

decides2dream wrote:

no, i'd actually love to understand why you think it's a-ok for a mother to purposely do this simply b/c she wants to? you just say it's ok...but you never really give a reason why beyond it's her choice, money shouldn't come into it, etc. you truly believe that? you think the world owes you, me or her support? if i wanted to have 8 babies thru IVF, willingy chose to, and clearly had no means to support them, or my other children without others footing the bill...that's OK? that's not at all selfish, nor neglectful of the responsibilities i already have? b/c basically, that's all i am saying. now you may well believe that. i sure as shit don't.


you obviously do not understand my motivations at all for this conversation if you thinking i am looking for the last word, or as you first said i was 'jealous' of this woman, etc....ya know...judging me. we have very different povs, i just would like to gain understanding of how you come to see this from the angle you do when i clearly see it sooo differently.

ehh... when did I say it was a-ok???????????? :? I think having kids is the most UNnatural thing in the world and I would NEVER understand why anyone would have more than say 3... ANYONE! But I also understand some people like that kinda thing (kids) so I leave them to it. I also believe that if somebody wants kids, money SHOULDN'T factor into the decision in an ideal world. I think it's disgusting when people say they can't afford kids... not that THEY say it but that that's the state of the world today where money is the deciding factor in everything :twisted: you do NOT want to get me started on that.

iluvcats

is this still going on?

decides2dream

Heineken Helen wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

no, i'd actually love to understand why you think it's a-ok for a mother to purposely do this simply b/c she wants to? you just say it's ok...but you never really give a reason why beyond it's her choice, money shouldn't come into it, etc. you truly believe that? you think the world owes you, me or her support? if i wanted to have 8 babies thru IVF, willingy chose to, and clearly had no means to support them, or my other children without others footing the bill...that's OK? that's not at all selfish, nor neglectful of the responsibilities i already have? b/c basically, that's all i am saying. now you may well believe that. i sure as shit don't.


you obviously do not understand my motivations at all for this conversation if you thinking i am looking for the last word, or as you first said i was 'jealous' of this woman, etc....ya know...judging me. we have very different povs, i just would like to gain understanding of how you come to see this from the angle you do when i clearly see it sooo differently.

ehh... when did I say it was a-ok???????????? :? I think having kids is the most UNnatural thing in the world and I would NEVER understand why anyone would have more than say 3... ANYONE! But I also understand some people like that kinda thing (kids) so I leave them to it. I also believe that if somebody wants kids, money SHOULDN'T factor into the decision in an ideal world. I think it's disgusting when people say they can't afford kids... not that THEY say it but that that's the state of the world today where money is the deciding factor in everything :twisted: you do NOT want to get me started on that.

are you serious?

by continually going on and on about all the 'judging' going on in here...and saying it's her choice to make, where do we get off judging her, etc. THAT's where i got the 'idea' you think what she did was OK. i don't think i am alone there either.


i've alredy agreed...it's got NOTHING to do with what i would personally choose, nor having lots of kids, etc, etc...it's all about being able to CARE for and AFFORD the children you have.....and if you ARE accepting public assitance for the kids you already have then it's WRONG to purposly CHOSE to have more! we are not discussing an 'ideal world' here.....we're discussing reality.


sorry if somehow by your numerous counterpoints in this thread that i somehow got the impression you were defending her choices or actions at all, thus to me implying that what she did was OK. :roll:

and liz..i was so gonna let the thread die with your last post/last word b/c it is soooo perfect...but others posted, so .....

Lizard wrote:

What she CHOSE to do was WRONG.

I don't care if she has a garden the size of a football field
I don't care if she has a loom to make her own clothes
I don't care if she can home school them all through college
I don't care if she gives herself her manicures or injects her own lips

IT WAS NOT RIGHT.


(Last word)

GREAT, GREAT POST!

love it.
so well said.

iluvcats

yikes (injects her own lips)

OUCH!!!!

Heineken Helen

iluvcats wrote:

is this still going on?

well I've tried to leave several times but d2d keeps demanding more answers but I'm already seriously bored with this topic and i'm REALLY out this time

decides2dream

Heineken Helen wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

you think she is an utterly crazy and selfish fuck???

thats fine....

and did i just read in another thread where you stated that the adoption process for these kids should already be going on???? you believe these 8 children should be taken away from their mother????

because this lady cant PROVE that she can support her children????

is that what you just said???? or am i missing something?????

yes, i think she is a crazy and selfish fuck.


(helen left out the rest of my post that addressed speedy's Qs in more detail)

and yet you've never met her :? WOW!

This lady does NOT have to answer to the public about how she's planning on supporting the kids or looking after them. I'm sure social services will be on top of it though and neighbours and everybody will want her to fuck up cos she's now high profile and everyone hates her. So if she puts a step wrong, it WILL be taken care of. Why don't ya just give her a chance.

hahahahahahahah...yes, i dragged helen into this thread today against her will with my post addressing...speedy!



priceless!


hmmmmm...personal responsibility, does it appeal to no one?


sorry for engaging in conversation and 'demanding' your response! hysterical! i should have such power! :P




and...staying on topic and b/c it's so good:

Lizard wrote:

What she CHOSE to do was WRONG.

I don't care if she has a garden the size of a football field
I don't care if she has a loom to make her own clothes
I don't care if she can home school them all through college
I don't care if she gives herself her manicures or injects her own lips

IT WAS NOT RIGHT.


(Last word)

redrock

Heineken Helen wrote:

I also believe that if somebody wants kids, money SHOULDN'T factor into the decision in an ideal world. I.

My two cents as a mother.... as you say Helen, in an IDEAL world, money shouldn't be a factor in the decision to have one, two , three or 14 kids BUT, as a responsible potential parent (single or in a relationship), you do factor that in (unless obviously there is an 'accident').

As a parent, you want the best for your child. This is loving and nurturing your child, keeping it healthy and happy (not much money involved here), then keeping a roof over their heads, furniture for their rooms, clothes on their bodies food in their tummies so they can develop as they should (physically and intellectually) - this does involve money. Those are basics. Then comes the 'extras' (which are not really extras), a good education (further education which needs to be paid for), all the stuff needed for school (notebooks, pens, school trips, etc.), celebrating birthdays, outings, etc. and so much more. It is VERY expensive to raise a child, even just giving the basics to enable it to take it's place out in the world when it becomes an adult. Many parents must make a lot of sacrifices too - your child comes before you do.

So Helen, cost of a child is a factor in deciding having one or more and when in your life to have them.

Knowingly and purposefully getting pregnant (by whatever means) and popping kids out like there is no tomorrow when YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO RAISE THEM is completely irresponsible and yes, selfish. One needs to understand the underlying psychological reasons for wanting this (ie wanting kids to compensate for some deficiency somewhere else).

decides2dream

redrock wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

I also believe that if somebody wants kids, money SHOULDN'T factor into the decision in an ideal world. I.

My two cents as a mother.... as you say Helen, in an IDEAL world, money shouldn't be a factor in the decision to have one, two , three or 14 kids BUT, as a responsible potential parent (single or in a relationship), you do factor that in (unless obviously there is an 'accident').

As a parent, you want the best for your child. This is loving and nurturing your child, keeping it healthy and happy (not much money involved here), then keeping a roof over their heads, furniture for their rooms, clothes on their bodies food in their tummies so they can develop as they should (physically and intellectually) - this does involve money. Those are basics. Then comes the 'extras' (which are not really extras), a good education (further education which needs to be paid for), all the stuff needed for school (notebooks, pens, school trips, etc.), celebrating birthdays, outings, etc. and so much more. It is VERY expensive to raise a child, even just giving the basics to enable it to take it's place out in the world when it becomes an adult. Many parents must make a lot of sacrifices too - your child comes before you do.

So Helen, cost of a child is a factor in deciding having one or more and when in your life to have them.

Knowingly and purposefully getting pregnant (by whatever means) and popping kids out like there is no tomorrow when YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO RAISE THEM is completely irresponsible and yes, selfish. One needs to understand the underlying psychological reasons for wanting this (ie wanting kids to compensate for some deficiency somewhere else).

beautiful post.
i am not a mother, but sure....we all can have a good understanding of family dynamics, and certainly of desires and wants. being a truly loving, caring and responsible person...one thinks out their actions, to whom they benefit most...and especially will they cause harm. there are many 'what-ifs' in life, and almost all acknowledged if this was an accident, etc...would be another story.....but purposefully doing so, well it is what it is right now. and yes, acknowledging this may be called 'being judgemental'...but in reality, it is merely acknowledging what is presented before you.


also, even in an IDEAL world where money is NOT a factor...being able to truly, properly care for 14 children's well-being, emotional and physical health, mental growth, etc....all on your own....or not asking the others in your life if they want to share the responsibility, it STILL is selfish, b/c it is STILL all about the MOTHER and HER WANTS.

Who Princess

When I was in grad school in my early 20s I had an older friend who had returned to school after her kids had gotten older. She had 6 kids, in their teens and 20s at that point, all of them great people. I was a newlywed and not very sure if I wanted to have kids. She told me once that if I wanted to be a mother, there was a world of people who needed mothering and I didn't have to have my own offspring to do it. That made a huge impression on me.

Loving children, being a parent, caring for other people does NOT have to involve passing on your own genes. You can adopt an older child, become a foster parent, or find all sorts of careers where you work with children. You don't even have to work with children to pass on your legacy. Resorting to IVF to have so many babies is not about loving children, it's about wanting to be pregnant.

iluvcats

d2d moved on....

she's at the moving train or whatever it is called

decides2dream

iluvcats wrote:

d2d moved on....

she's at the moving train or whatever it is called

i'm all over baby, watch out!



seriously, this topic - obviously - just intrigues me, and what can i say? children, animals......they are ours to care for and it is a responsibility that should NOT be taken lightly, or for purely selfish motivations. having a child, or not having a child...both can be seen as 'selfish' to a certain degree, b/c it is about your wants. however, no matter the decision, if you are saying you love children, then first and foremost...your priority should be about what is best for children. so for me, it just seemed to not see this mother's deicsion as anything but truly selfish, on all levels quite honestly....i can't see, and if someone saw it differently, i was hoping to gain some understanding.


whoprincess...another great post. and hey, i agree, it's about wanting your own child, the pregnancy experience...and i personally think that's a-ok. just don't try to make it out like some form of altruism or sumthin', ya know? and yea.....do it for love, and be responsible with that love.....on your own, or with willing help....not forcing others to bare your burden.

so-much-clearer

I'm the one who said the kids need to be taken away.

It's not physically possible for her to give enough care to fourteen children.

They're almost guaranteed to be raised by grandma (who took care of the first six for months while Nadya was going through the second pregnancy and being hospitalized) so it's not even like we'd be taking them away from their mom.

AmentsChick

In case there was any doubt that she had plastic surgery. Here are two comparative photos. She has clearly had her nose and lips worked on:

decides2dream

who even needs a before and after picture?
seriously, you can simply 'tell' right now. sad.


anyhoo...couldn't care less what she looks like, what she does to herself, etc, etc. my only concern is the children, and sure the absolute abuse of IVF and public assistance. it is such things that make more people who are on the fence about IVF question it's validity/morality....and she makes people who truly DO need temporary assistance, but honestly want to pull themselves up and be self-supportive, look bad....b/c she's just another story of another person abusing the system, no personal responsibility, etc. just bad news all around.

AmentsChick

decides2dream wrote:

who even needs a before and after picture?
seriously, you can simply 'tell' right now. sad.


anyhoo...couldn't care less what she looks like, what she does to herself, etc, etc. my only concern is the children, and sure the absolute abuse of IVF and public assistance. it is such things that make more people who are on the fence about IVF question it's validity/morality....and she makes people who truly DO need temporary assistance, but honestly want to pull themselves up and be self-supportive, look bad....b/c she's just another story of another person abusing the system, no personal responsibility, etc. just bad news all around.

I think her obsession with Angelina Jolie speaks volumes about her state of mind and also gives insight to another reason she wanted such a large family.

I listen to a local LA radio station (yes, I get it all the way in San Diego) and this morning they said her friends and family have been coming forward with the news that she's infatuated with all things Angelina Jolie. Apparently she's sent AJ numerous letters, cards, gifts...etc.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedish ... jolie.html