abortion

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VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

she said ONE reason, and then added most women have about 3.7 on average. so sure, can/should be addressed.......but i think finding out what the other 2 are would be prudent as well. also, to find out which was the MOST deciding factor amongst those reasons. personally, and i don't have stats...but i would imagine more than anything, simply not wanting a pregnancy or a child at that point in life to be the biggest...amongst my own personal, unscientific research.

Good point. What does the survey say is the number one reason, SCB?

The 2005 study broke it down like this:
74% - concern for and/or responsibility to other individuals
73% - cannot afford a baby now
69% - a baby would interfere with school/employment/ability to care for dependents
48% - would be a single parent/having relationship problems
38% - has completed childbearing

The 1988 study broke it down into more narrow categories:
21% - inadequate finances
21% - not ready for the responsibility
16% - woman's life would be changed too much
12% - problems with relationship/unmarried
11% - too young/not mature enough
8% - children are grown; woman has all she wants
3% - fetus has possible health problem
3% - woman has health problem
1% - pregnancy caused by rape, incest
4% - other

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decides2dream wrote:

question for you:
even if affordability were the number 1 reason, what can we do about that?
can we make having children more affordable? i mean, there are many programs in place to help single mothers. not saying they are enough, but also.....how much can we expect to do for that? idk...i'm only asking......

i think in all instances, i think truly targeting the WHYs of seeking abortion in the first place......WHY did the unintended pregnancy take place.....would do best for helping to iradicate, or at least greatly reduce, the need. i don't think any thing will 100% do away with unwanted pregnancy......but hopefully we could get close. better access to BC, more affordable, remove social/religious stigmas...develop better/easier BC...access to the morning-after pill. i mean quite honestly, i know many are against that as well...but hell, personally, i am ALL for single women having say quick and easy access to such, and then after a night of unprotected sex, or a scare with faulty BC.....easy, cheap or free access. a possible end to the possibility of a pregnancy..i mean, the day after!...seems far more preferable than abortions later on. just my own thought on it of course.

I think we can make children/life more affordable in many ways:

universal healthcare better public transportation affordable housing afffordable daycare no taxes for food and other necessities et cetera

But, as you said, it's more important to prevent pregnancy to begin with (for those who know they aren't ready for children). I think it's very important to note that unintended pregnancy and abortion are becoming INCREASINGLY concentrated among poor and low-income women.

Between 1994 and 2001, unintended pregnancy fell by 20% among women with incomes above 200% of the federal poverty level, but increased by 29% among women living below the poverty level. (http://www.guttmacher.org)

Poor women make up 16% of the population at risk for unintended pregnancy, yet they account for 30% of unintended pregnancies. (Boonstra, et al. 2006)

The abortion rate for women living below the poverty level is more than 4 times higher than that of women living at more than 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10). (Jones, et al. 2002)

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VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Stop handing things out to people who don't deserve it. (this, by the way includes handing out contraception. If you want to have sex, go get a job, and buy some trojans )

I'm gonna have to respectfully completely disagree. I'd say better access to contraception for poor women, coupled with the education to know how to use it, is the #1 thing we could do to decrease abortion in the U.S.... especially given the stats I posted above which show that unintended pregnancy (and therefore abortion as well) is increasingly concentrated among poor women.

Pats54

scb wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

question for you:
even if affordability were the number 1 reason, what can we do about that?
can we make having children more affordable? i mean, there are many programs in place to help single mothers. not saying they are enough, but also.....how much can we expect to do for that? idk...i'm only asking......

i think in all instances, i think truly targeting the WHYs of seeking abortion in the first place......WHY did the unintended pregnancy take place.....would do best for helping to iradicate, or at least greatly reduce, the need. i don't think any thing will 100% do away with unwanted pregnancy......but hopefully we could get close. better access to BC, more affordable, remove social/religious stigmas...develop better/easier BC...access to the morning-after pill. i mean quite honestly, i know many are against that as well...but hell, personally, i am ALL for single women having say quick and easy access to such, and then after a night of unprotected sex, or a scare with faulty BC.....easy, cheap or free access. a possible end to the possibility of a pregnancy..i mean, the day after!...seems far more preferable than abortions later on. just my own thought on it of course.

I think we can make children/life more affordable in many ways:

universal healthcare better public transportation affordable housing afffordable daycare no taxes for food and other necessities et cetera

And I think to myself what a wondeful world :roll: Who is going to pay for all of that. Maybe Barry can have treasury print more money.

But, as you said, it's more important to prevent pregnancy to begin with (for those who know they aren't ready for children). I think it's very important to note that unintended pregnancy and abortion are becoming INCREASINGLY concentrated among poor and low-income women.

Between 1994 and 2001, unintended pregnancy fell by 20% among women with incomes above 200% of the federal poverty level, but increased by 29% among women living below the poverty level. (http://www.guttmacher.org)

Poor women make up 16% of the population at risk for unintended pregnancy, yet they account for 30% of unintended pregnancies. (Boonstra, et al. 2006)

The abortion rate for women living below the poverty level is more than 4 times higher than that of women living at more than 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10). (Jones, et al. 2002)

decides2dream

scb wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

question for you:
even if affordability were the number 1 reason, what can we do about that?
can we make having children more affordable? i mean, there are many programs in place to help single mothers. not saying they are enough, but also.....how much can we expect to do for that? idk...i'm only asking......

i think in all instances, i think truly targeting the WHYs of seeking abortion in the first place......WHY did the unintended pregnancy take place.....would do best for helping to iradicate, or at least greatly reduce, the need. i don't think any thing will 100% do away with unwanted pregnancy......but hopefully we could get close. better access to BC, more affordable, remove social/religious stigmas...develop better/easier BC...access to the morning-after pill. i mean quite honestly, i know many are against that as well...but hell, personally, i am ALL for single women having say quick and easy access to such, and then after a night of unprotected sex, or a scare with faulty BC.....easy, cheap or free access. a possible end to the possibility of a pregnancy..i mean, the day after!...seems far more preferable than abortions later on. just my own thought on it of course.

I think we can make children/life more affordable in many ways:

universal healthcare better public transportation affordable housing afffordable daycare no taxes for food and other necessities et cetera

But, as you said, it's more important to prevent pregnancy to begin with (for those who know they aren't ready for children). I think it's very important to note that unintended pregnancy and abortion are becoming INCREASINGLY concentrated among poor and low-income women.

Between 1994 and 2001, unintended pregnancy fell by 20% among women with incomes above 200% of the federal poverty level, but increased by 29% among women living below the poverty level. (http://www.guttmacher.org)

Poor women make up 16% of the population at risk for unintended pregnancy, yet they account for 30% of unintended pregnancies. (Boonstra, et al. 2006)

The abortion rate for women living below the poverty level is more than 4 times higher than that of women living at more than 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10). (Jones, et al. 2002)

oh i know we can make life more 'affordable' overall...but i just think, no matter what...as a single parent it will always be tough. thus why i think not many 'want' that. not saying many wouldn't choose it, b/c of course they do! but i don't think anyone truly goes on planning on being a single parent. that's all.


and this:

scb wrote:

21% - inadequate finances
21% - not ready for the responsibility

well vinny, looks like we're both right! and not surprising either.

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Pats54 wrote:

I think we can make children/life more affordable in many ways:

universal healthcare better public transportation affordable housing afffordable daycare no taxes for food and other necessities et cetera

And I think to myself what a wondeful world :roll: Who is going to pay for all of that. Maybe Barry can have treasury print more money.

Eh, you can roll your eyes at me all you want but I have no doubt we could do it if we really wanted to. Many places already do... but that's a different subject. Oh, and I forgot to add adequate maternity/paternity leave to the list.

Abuskedti

Ok, so you think it is ok that the woman can decide to abort a pregnancy when the fahter wants the child because of the hardship of a 9 month pregnancy the woman would endure for a child she does not want.

what about the other way around

surely if a unwanted pregnancy results in a child - it will cause a lifetime of financial and emotional problems for the man. What say give him the same rights. He can order an abortion.

melodious

that's rough call, abu, but i support your thoughts as well....these are people we are talking about....and it takes more than a village to raise a life to be healthy wealthy and balanced...

peace and joyous love.

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

Ok, so you think it is ok that the woman can decide to abort a pregnancy when the fahter wants the child because of the hardship of a 9 month pregnancy the woman would endure for a child she does not want.

what about the other way around

surely if a unwanted pregnancy results in a child - it will cause a lifetime of financial and emotional problems for the man. What say give him the same rights. He can order an abortion.

it's not just that - it's not just a 'hardship'....tho it IS a biggie, it's also a health risk...it's also how difficult would it actually be to make 100% certain the father does not renege on the agreement, change his mind, throw away the responsibility...once it beomes the point of no return in the pregnancy, or at the birth, right after the birth, etc. to me, that's THE point. it's a hard enough time right now to get a lot of father's to keep up with their responsbilities - again, not saying ALL....not be a longshot.


and i asked that of you earlier......if 'father's will' gets to be the determining factor, should he also be allowed to force a woman to have an abortion she does not want? for me, again...it's all about....HER body, her risks, her health....either way...HER CHOICE. while it's nice to imagine that a couple will always agree, if they don't...there is NO way i think the father's choice - no matter which he would choose - should trump the mother's. it all happens within her body.


i wonder if scb has any stats on how many father's were in agreement with the mother's choices? and/or, how many women had abortions, or babies.....without the father's knowledge at all. be interesting. personally, and no stats to back it up, i would think most men and women would be in agreement when a woman chooses abortion. i honestly have never met a man who had any kind of partner have an abortion and he didn't support her decision to do so. most expressed relief to 'dodge the bullet'....not have the child to be responsible for at that time, and most...just like the women i know who've had abortions...have gone on to have families of their own, just further down the road, when they WANTed it to happen.

honestly....how difficult is it to hook up with someone who at the very least, shares the same values as you? and if you are having unprotected casual sex, a one-night stand....and are not using BC....or using it poorly.....i don't imagine one being so pro-life, b/c that would be a pretty irresponsible way to be if you are truly pro-life. most of the other unintended pregnancy scenarios usally involve dating couples...and i'd think similar values would come into play in dating. just sayin'.

i understand people being anti-abortion for their own personal, moral reasons....and i agree...it's their choice to make, and sure...even while i vehemently disagree, i do realize, it's their right to try and fight against abortion, even for others. but we're not talking about that really...we're talking about putting father's rights above mother's rights....and i just cannot support that, due to simple biology.

Abuskedti

I guess I am not as pro-choice as you. the only reason I think abortion should be legal is that in this society, it is not fair to a child to bring them into the world with parents that don't want them. for me it is not about the woman at all.. I think it is her responsibility not to get pregnant. Once pregnancy occurs, the child becomes the number one priority. if there is a parent that wants the child, there should not be an abortion. The dangers to the woman are natures doing, not the fault of the father or the child.

as for the dad changing his mind... that is no different than wondering if the woman will change hers. the law requires you to care for your children. If you don't, you may wind up in prison and the child may wind up in the care of the state. With respect for the responsibility of caring for your children, the law does not discriminate between the man and the women. that is joint and absolute - when they fight over custody - it favors the woman to establish the home address.. but still holds both equally responsible for the safety and care of the child.

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

I guess I am not as pro-choice as you. the only reason I think abortion should be legal is that in this society, it is not fair to a child to bring them into the world with parents that don't want them. for me it is not about the woman at all.. I think it is her responsibility not to get pregnant. Once pregnancy occurs, the child becomes the number one priority. if there is a parent that wants the child, there should not be an abortion. The dangers to the woman are natures doing, not the fault of the father or the child.

as for the dad changing his mind... that is no different than wondering if the woman will change hers. the law requires you to care for your children. If you don't, you may wind up in prison and the child may wind up in the care of the state. With respect for the responsibility of caring for your children, the law does not discriminate between the man and the women. that is joint and absolute - when they fight over custody - it favors the woman to establish the home address.. but still holds both equally responsible for the safety and care of the child.

the law doesn't discriminate...but it also doesn't do too good a job making certain those responsibilities are met, and given that most children with parent who are not together do live with their mothers....that means a lot more women shouldering their responsibility of their children, alone. that's why i think your idea just wouldn't be practical.

in my mind, abortion IS legal, and it's about choice...to be a parent, not be a parent....or give a child to someone desiring a child. so whether there is a parent, or someone else out in the world who may desire said child....it's still a woman's right to simply say, i do not even want this pregnancy for myself. and also remember, there are sooo many babies/children in foster care, for life. not every baby is *desired*......even by their fathers, or adoptive parents. it's a hard truth, but it IS the truth. there are not many who desire a high needs infant/child....born drug-addicted, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc.....and also, plain ole birth defects that can and do occur. so while someone may want to adopt a baby, most have parameters of what kind of baby they want to adopt......same with a father desiring a child......one can easily change their mind. so if you 'force' a woman to have a child she doesn't want, when she would've chosen abortion but goes thru with it b/c the father wants it...and then he changes his mind, she now has to shoulder the responsibilty. he can skip out long before the birth, the woman cannot skip out as she is the carrier. thus why, i think the decision should lie with the mother. that's all.


and yes, i am absolutely pro-choice....and 100% behind it always being the mother's choice. i'd like more access to BC, the morning after-pill, education, etc....but you bet, i believe abortion should always be an option for a woman to make for herself.

Abuskedti

I may agree with you. This is such a difficult topic. I can't help but focus on the child and feel the need to protect it. In the end though - in the real world - your view is the most practical.

but give me a minute - because I will always seek a solution that is better, and forget what I just said. This is one of the very few situations were i can't seem to find the right answer for me.

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Abuskedti wrote:

Ok, so you think it is ok that the woman can decide to abort a pregnancy when the fahter wants the child because of the hardship of a 9 month pregnancy the woman would endure for a child she does not want.

what about the other way around

surely if a unwanted pregnancy results in a child - it will cause a lifetime of financial and emotional problems for the man. What say give him the same rights. He can order an abortion.

It doesn't seem like you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying:

1. Although it would be nice for everyone to have equal say, this is not physically possible. There's nothing any of us can do about that, so we must do the best we can in an imperfect situation.

2. There are many more factors to consider than just 9 months of pregnancy and whether or not a child is wanted.

_

Let me give you an example of just one situation in which things aren't as cut and dried as you make them out to be:

I got pregnant when I was 15. I wasn't using birth control because supposedly my boyfriend was infertile (and I had heard this directly from his doctor). (Plus, my parents weren't the type to be understanding if I said I wanted birth control or condoms, and we lived far enough away from a drugstore that I didn't have an opportunity to buy condoms without having my parents drive me there. Not to mention that I didn't have any money.)

Before I found out I was pregnant, my parents had already forbid me from ever seeing my boyfriend again and he had moved back to AZ (we were in NM) where he didn't have a phone, car, etc. It just so happened that, the day after I found out I was pregnant, he hitch-hiked back to NM to try to sneak around my parents and see me.

So the situation I was in while trying to decide whether or not to have a baby or an abortion (something I had always been adamently against) was this: My family was completely broke since my parents had been unable to find employment since we moved to NM the previous year. My sister and I had gotten special work permits and were working after school and on weekends to support the family. (We just signed our checks over to them, so we didn't get to keep any of the money.) My grandparents sent money for food when they found out I was pregnant, but I ate most of it and my siblings were hungry. I thought I would continue to work during my pregnancy, but I passed out at work. I kept telling my family I was keeping the baby, but my aunts called me every day and said there's no way I could do it, it wouldn't be fair to the baby, I would never finish school, etc.

I thought about adoption, but here's the thing - my boyfriend (who had turned 18) really wanted the baby. I couldn't give it up for adoption because he had rights to it. (These are the rights to which you're referring, I believe.) Well he was an alcoholic, had dropped out of school, and didn't have work until (after moving back to NM to be with me and the "baby") moved from the homeless shelter to a crack house, where he was able to make money as a crack dealer. This is the father who you are saying should have a right to raise my child if I don't think I can do it well enough. Five years later he was brutally murdered at a party because supposedly he owed someone drug money. His new girlfriend was pregnant at the time - with their 3rd child.

Also, even if I had been able to somehow get around his rights and place my child for adoption, because the child would have been half Native American (from my boyfriend), the tribe would have rights to the baby. I would not be the one who got to choose the family to raise it. Most likely, his mother, who also wanted me to have the baby, would have raised it on the reservation. Having lived on the reservation myself, I knew there was no way this was a good environment in which to raise a child.

Due to the insistence of my extended family, I had an abortion. I did it, even though I thought at the time that abortion was wrong, because I felt that it was in the best interest of my child. It's a tough decision for a young mother to make, I can tell you. But it was not a selfish one. And it was not because the child was unwanted or because I didn't respect and consider the rights of the father. It broke my heart to end the life of, not only my child, but his child. Despite his inability to get his shit together, I loved him and thought he was a good man. Did he deserve to have his child aborted against his will? No. But it would have been even less fair to the child to bring it into this situation. You or he or anyone else may disagree with my decision, but I hope you can at least see that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.

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decides2dream wrote:

i wonder if scb has any stats on how many father's were in agreement with the mother's choices? and/or, how many women had abortions, or babies.....without the father's knowledge at all.

I've often wished I had stats on this but, unfortunately, I don't. I wonder if there's some way to do a study...

decides2dream

scb wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

i wonder if scb has any stats on how many father's were in agreement with the mother's choices? and/or, how many women had abortions, or babies.....without the father's knowledge at all.

I've often wished I had stats on this but, unfortunately, I don't. I wonder if there's some way to do a study...

i really didn't think there would be, but if anyone would know....you or VG - who isn;t on this board anymore:( - would. i think, honestly, it would be as 'simple' as asking women the reasons for their abortions...simply a follow-up, and completely anonymous, question.

as i said, from my own very unscientfic experience, of those i do know....almost all, the fathers knew and were in agreement. the only one who wasn't interestingly enough....wasn't one who got an abortion, but one who chose to have her child, and the father wanted nothing to do with it - would have preferred she got an abortion, and the mother didn't want him to later try and claim his child, so she left his name off the birth certificate. obviously, also never got any support or involvement from him, which she did willingly chose, but i think he would've made it quite difficult for her in any case.



and scb - thank you for sharing your story. it does so well illustrate the predicament girls can find themselves in. never an easy choice.

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decides2dream wrote:

i really didn't think there would be, but if anyone would know....you or VG - who isn;t on this board anymore:( - would.

My experience is that a lot of women involve their partners and plenty of women don't. The ones who don't tend to be those who are in less than ideal relationships.

And, yes, I wish VG were still here! I would love to keep in touch with her. If you have any contact info for her, please PM me.

Abuskedti

scb wrote:

but I hope you can at least see that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.

Its always tough and emotional. I respect your decision. In your situation, the decision was made by those best equipped to make that decision and likely the best one.

just keep in mind, for every situation where the mother is the "better parent" (for lack of a better term). there is a situation where the mother is irresponsible, disinterested or whatever.

In my experience, the people best equipped to make decisions are the ones making them - the others just don't want to.

my wishes are probably unenforcable, or unrealistic. But it is sure seem wrong when a good man is shut out of that decision.

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Abuskedti wrote:

just keep in mind, for every situation where the mother is the "better parent" (for lack of a better term). there is a situation where the mother is irresponsible, disinterested or whatever.

I don't at all think the mother is necessarily the better parent. I just think that it is, in reality, her decision to make and she's got to make the one she feels is best - even if it's different than the one the father would make.

my wishes are probably unenforcable, or unrealistic. But it is sure seem wrong when a good man is shut out of that decision.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't use the word wrong, which I think implies blame. It's just life. A woman can take the man's wishes into consideration, but ultimately only one person can make the decision. That's not the fault of the woman or the man, or you or me.

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

scb wrote:

but I hope you can at least see that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.

Its always tough and emotional. I respect your decision. In your situation, the decision was made by those best equipped to make that decision and likely the best one.

just keep in mind, for every situation where the mother is the "better parent" (for lack of a better term). there is a situation where the mother is irresponsible, disinterested or whatever.

In my experience, the people best equipped to make decisions are the ones making them - the others just don't want to.

my wishes are probably unenforcable, or unrealistic. But it is sure seem wrong when a good man is shut out of that decision.

on all of this, we can agree.
although i will say, i can't imagine many 'good men' being shut out, b/c usually good men are with good women, and they would at least try to jointly come to the best decision for all involved.