abortion

WaveCameCrashin

I was just curious are there any women you know or yourself was pro-choice had an abortion or has a child and now pro life. I my self was in a relationship with a woman and we decided to have an abortion and I have to be honest,There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about it. Like if it would have been a boy or a girl or what path in life would they have chosen. :(

Heineken Helen

I know plenty of women who have had abortions :( only two that I helped through it and possibly another one coming up :(

I can assure you that NONE of them took the decision lightly and I'm sure they do think of it most days if not all. But not one of them has become pro life. They appreciate that the option was there for them and they want to keep it there for others. It's NEVER an easy thing to go through, contrary to what many people think. And I hope I'm never in that position myself... I've god to thank for being so lucky.

catefrances

no

_

I've never known a women to go from be "pro-choice" to being "pro-life". I have, however, known women for which the opposite happened... especially when they became pregnant.

I could see how it could be different for men, though, considering that they have less say in the decision and perhaps less chance to process their emotions about it before it happens. I mean, when an important decision about your child's life is taken out of your hands, as ultimately this decision is, it might leave you feeling powerless - even if you would have made the same decision.

I think this is similar to what some young girls feel when their parents coerce them into having an abortion (or a child) and they feel like the decision wasn't theirs. (And the same goes for women whose governments make the decision for them by outlawing abortion.) Seems like it would be somewhat harder to come to terms with, regardless of whether you would have made the same decision, ya know?

Regardless, I hope hope you are able to find peace with what happened.

WaveCameCrashin

scb wrote:

I've never known a women to go from be "pro-choice" to being "pro-life". I have, however, known women for which the opposite happened... especially when they became pregnant.

I could see how it could be different for men, though, considering that they have less say in the decision and perhaps less chance to process their emotions about it before it happens. I mean, when an important decision about your child's life is taken out of your hands, as ultimately this decision is, it might leave you feeling powerless - even if you would have made the same decision.

I think this is similar to what some young girls feel when their parents coerce them into having an abortion (or a child) and they feel like the decision wasn't theirs. (And the same goes for women whose governments make the decision for them by outlawing abortion.) Seems like it would be somewhat harder to comes to terms with, regardless of whether you would have made the same decision, ya know?

Regardless, I hope hope you are able to find peace with what happened.

I'm at peace with it its just some thing I think about a lot. thanks for caring

wolfbear

gvn2fly74 wrote:

I was just curious are there any women you know or yourself was pro-choice had an abortion or has a child and now pro life. I my self was in a relationship with a woman and we decided to have an abortion and I have to be honest,There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about it. Like if it would have been a boy or a girl or what path in life would they have chosen. :(

No, I haven't. In fact, just the opposite, it reaffirmed that the option is good. While it is a hard choice, so are many in life. Since you can't change the past, it's best to put it behind and focus on the good things now and in the future.

_

gvn2fly74 wrote:

I'm at peace with it its just some thing I think about a lot. thanks for caring

I can tell you from experience that eventually you'll probably think about it less and less.

melodious

i think you may have met one now.

17 yrs old: too young too live; to young to die...

at time of conception, God has placed a miracle in your life.

decides2dream

i know a few women who have had abortions, and almost all of them have continued on to have families later on. all as far as i know, are still pro-choice. i've never had an abortion nor have i ever had a child, but i believe that, even if one or the other occurred, it would not necessarily alter my views on being pro choice. it might alter my views on what choices i would make for myself - don't really know - but i don't see how or why it would make me change my mind that a woman should be able to make this choice, for herself.

scb wrote:

I've never known a women to go from be "pro-choice" to being "pro-life". I have, however, known women for which the opposite happened... especially when they became pregnant.

I could see how it could be different for men, though, considering that they have less say in the decision and perhaps less chance to process their emotions about it before it happens. I mean, when an important decision about your child's life is taken out of your hands, as ultimately this decision is, it might leave you feeling powerless - even if you would have made the same decision.

I think this is similar to what some young girls feel when their parents coerce them into having an abortion (or a child) and they feel like the decision wasn't theirs. (And the same goes for women whose governments make the decision for them by outlawing abortion.) Seems like it would be somewhat harder to come to terms with, regardless of whether you would have made the same decision, ya know?

Regardless, I hope hope you are able to find peace with what happened.

excellent post.

Abuskedti

scb wrote:

I've never known a women to go from be "pro-choice" to being "pro-life". I have, however, known women for which the opposite happened... especially when they became pregnant.

I could see how it could be different for men, though, considering that they have less say in the decision and perhaps less chance to process their emotions about it before it happens. I mean, when an important decision about your child's life is taken out of your hands, as ultimately this decision is, it might leave you feeling powerless - even if you would have made the same decision.

I think this is similar to what some young girls feel when their parents coerce them into having an abortion (or a child) and they feel like the decision wasn't theirs. (And the same goes for women whose governments make the decision for them by outlawing abortion.) Seems like it would be somewhat harder to come to terms with, regardless of whether you would have made the same decision, ya know?

Regardless, I hope hope you are able to find peace with what happened.

I am a man, and yes it makes me feel powerless. it makes me angry. It seems that history supports the view that this is a womans decision, as so many men have had no interest in raising children. I wish these decision could be made on case by case basis, but that is too expensive - in time and money. But in many cases, the man is better prepared and more involved. Wish it could always be mutual, but often it is not.

I have never been on the wrong end of a abortion decision... but I have had a scare. I raised two boys as a single parent ... but because I am a man am on the wrong end of a custody decision for my daughter turning 13 this month. too risky for the judge to rule against a mother I suppose and my baby suffers until she is old enough to know and has the courage to make such a decision for herself. No teenager should have to do that. Stand up judges!!! don't be such whimps and only concerned for how you will be judged by fools.

VINNY GOOMBA

scb wrote:

I've never known a women to go from be "pro-choice" to being "pro-life". I have, however, known women for which the opposite happened... especially when they became pregnant.

Except for Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade?

VINNY GOOMBA

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

scb wrote:

I've never known a women to go from be "pro-choice" to being "pro-life". I have, however, known women for which the opposite happened... especially when they became pregnant.

Except for Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade?

Edit: Not saying that you know her, or anything, but she is one example.

_

Abuskedti wrote:

I am a man, and yes it makes me feel powerless. it makes me angry. It seems that history supports the view that this is a womans decision, as so many men have had no interest in raising children. I wish these decision could be made on case by case basis, but that is too expensive - in time and money. But in many cases, the man is better prepared and more involved. Wish it could always be mutual, but often it is not.

I certainly see your point. My comment wasn't necessarily about situations where the decision is not mutual, however. Even when two people agree, only one of them really has the power to make the decision. I think anyone who knows that ultimately they are not the ones with this power can feel powerless. If the man had the power to make the decision, then the woman would necessarily be the powerless one. It's a catch-22.

_

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

scb wrote:

I've never known a women to go from be "pro-choice" to being "pro-life". I have, however, known women for which the opposite happened... especially when they became pregnant.

Except for Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade?

Edit: Not saying that you know her, or anything, but she is one example.

Haha - you beat me to it! I was just going to say that I don't know her.

Yeah, anything's possible of course.

Abuskedti

scb wrote:

Abuskedti wrote:

I am a man, and yes it makes me feel powerless. it makes me angry. It seems that history supports the view that this is a womans decision, as so many men have had no interest in raising children. I wish these decision could be made on case by case basis, but that is too expensive - in time and money. But in many cases, the man is better prepared and more involved. Wish it could always be mutual, but often it is not.

I certainly see your point. My comment wasn't necessarily about situations where the decision is not mutual, however. Even when two people agree, only one of them really has the power to make the decision. I think anyone who knows that ultimately they are not the ones with this power can feel powerless. If the man had the power to make the decision, then the woman would necessarily be the powerless one. It's a catch-22.

I feel that if one parent wants the child that parents wishes trump. There should not be an abortion when a parent wants to raise a child. only when neither parent wants a child should the possibility of abortion be considered.

mickeyrat

Abuskedti wrote:

scb wrote:

Abuskedti wrote:

I am a man, and yes it makes me feel powerless. it makes me angry. It seems that history supports the view that this is a womans decision, as so many men have had no interest in raising children. I wish these decision could be made on case by case basis, but that is too expensive - in time and money. But in many cases, the man is better prepared and more involved. Wish it could always be mutual, but often it is not.

I certainly see your point. My comment wasn't necessarily about situations where the decision is not mutual, however. Even when two people agree, only one of them really has the power to make the decision. I think anyone who knows that ultimately they are not the ones with this power can feel powerless. If the man had the power to make the decision, then the woman would necessarily be the powerless one. It's a catch-22.

I feel that if one parent wants the child that parents wishes trump. There should not be an abortion when a parent wants to raise a child. only when neither parent wants a child should the possibility of abortion be considered.

Then that makes the mother nothing more than an incubator. And that ain't cool.

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

scb wrote:

Abuskedti wrote:

I am a man, and yes it makes me feel powerless. it makes me angry. It seems that history supports the view that this is a womans decision, as so many men have had no interest in raising children. I wish these decision could be made on case by case basis, but that is too expensive - in time and money. But in many cases, the man is better prepared and more involved. Wish it could always be mutual, but often it is not.

I certainly see your point. My comment wasn't necessarily about situations where the decision is not mutual, however. Even when two people agree, only one of them really has the power to make the decision. I think anyone who knows that ultimately they are not the ones with this power can feel powerless. If the man had the power to make the decision, then the woman would necessarily be the powerless one. It's a catch-22.

I feel that if one parent wants the child that parents wishes trump. There should not be an abortion when a parent wants to raise a child. only when neither parent wants a child should the possibility of abortion be considered.

hmmmmm...i don't think so. firstly, that is forcing a woman to continue on with a pregancy, in her body - so her inherent risks - when she clearly does not want to. secondly, how would that work exactly? what if this did exist, and then 14 weeks into the pregnancy, conveniently, the father decides he doesn't want the child? or right before the birth, he meets some new woman who doesn't want him to have a child and he reneges his responsibility? there are WAY too many variables in there. so until they figure out a way to transfer the embryo from mother to father, our imperfect system of choice is the best we got. men go into sexual relations knowing full well the legal rights/responsibilities...so he is making his choice from the get-go.

Abuskedti

I am on the "pro-choce" side, but with the understanding that it is a last resort and the best option in a bad situation. If a man is about to become a father, and is happy about the responsibility and his new family memebr, I don't see how it is a best option.

Is about just about birth control to you?

VINNY GOOMBA

decides2dream wrote:

men go into sexual relations knowing full well the legal rights/responsibilities...so he is making his choice from the get-go.

Couldn't agree more with that line. When are the men of the world going to stop lying to themselves about the consequences of having sex?

FUCKIN' PULL OUT ALREADY! WEAR A CONDOM AND PULL OUT!
STOP BUSTING A FULL LOAD IN THE VAGINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_

Abuskedti wrote:

scb wrote:

Abuskedti wrote:

I am a man, and yes it makes me feel powerless. it makes me angry. It seems that history supports the view that this is a womans decision, as so many men have had no interest in raising children. I wish these decision could be made on case by case basis, but that is too expensive - in time and money. But in many cases, the man is better prepared and more involved. Wish it could always be mutual, but often it is not.

I certainly see your point. My comment wasn't necessarily about situations where the decision is not mutual, however. Even when two people agree, only one of them really has the power to make the decision. I think anyone who knows that ultimately they are not the ones with this power can feel powerless. If the man had the power to make the decision, then the woman would necessarily be the powerless one. It's a catch-22.

I feel that if one parent wants the child that parents wishes trump. There should not be an abortion when a parent wants to raise a child. only when neither parent wants a child should the possibility of abortion be considered.

I see your line of reasoning here, and I admit I hadn't thought of it that way with my response above. The problem I see with that philosophy, however, is that the decision is not just about whether or not the parents WANT the child, but also about what's BEST for the child. If your child had some abnormality, for instance, that would cause it to suffer, you might feel just as strongly about preventing his/her suffering as your partner might feel about preserving his/her life. As with euthenasia, I don't believe that preserving life at ALL costs is NECESSARILY always the right choice. (But you probably know that about me already. )

Then, of course, there are also all the valid arguments concerning the fact that the woman is the only one who carries the pregnancy.

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

I am on the "pro-choce" side, but with the understanding that it is a last resort and the best option in a bad situation. If a man is about to become a father, and is happy about the responsibility and his new family memebr, I don't see how it is a best option.

Is about just about birth control to you?

of course not!
i agree, abortion is a last choice, but it IS a choice...hopefully both involved/responsible will be on the same page, but bottomline, the law agrees, as do i, that the final decision rests with the mother.


it's all well and good to imagine a father who WANTS the child, and is offering to take 100% responsibility, but there still lie some inherent problems in that scenario as outlined above. you are forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy, and al the risks involved, when she doesn't want to....and how does one make CERTAIN said father won't change his mind, renege his responsibility, half-way through the pregnancy? for these reasons, just for starters, i cannot see your idea being right, nor implemented. in an ideal world, perhaps...but then again, if it were ideal...unwanted pregnancies would cease to exist.

melodious

**agreed.

_

decides2dream wrote:

it's all well and good to imagine a father who WANTS the child, and is offering to take 100% responsibility, but there still lie some inherent problems in that scenario as outlined above. you are forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy, and all the risks involved, when she doesn't want to....

Good point. What if the father wants the child and chooses for the pregnancy to continue, but the mother (who may or may not want the child) chooses abortion because continuing the pregnancy would put her own life or health at risk?

Danimal

I think murder should be illegal.

Heineken Helen

decides2dream wrote:

it's all well and good to imagine a father who WANTS the child, and is offering to take 100% responsibility, but there still lie some inherent problems in that scenario as outlined above. you are forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy, and al the risks involved, when she doesn't want to....and how does one make CERTAIN said father won't change his mind, renege his responsibility, half-way through the pregnancy? for these reasons, just for starters, i cannot see your idea being right, nor implemented. in an ideal world, perhaps...but then again, if it were ideal...unwanted pregnancies would cease to exist.

Agreed... if the father wants the baby and the mother doesn't, does he have the right to make her give up smoking, drinking, etc. for those 9 months? If not, well how is that fair on the kid? And if so, well that just can't be done... otherwise you're getting into scary territory having control over HER body for the 9 months.

Heineken Helen

Danimal wrote:

I think murder should be illegal.

Eh... it IS!

Abuskedti

of course not!
i agree, abortion is a last choice, but it IS a choice...hopefully both involved/responsible will be on the same page, but bottomline, the law agrees, as do i, that the final decision rests with the mother.


it's all well and good to imagine a father who WANTS the child, and is offering to take 100% responsibility, but there still lie some inherent problems in that scenario as outlined above. you are forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy, and al the risks involved, when she doesn't want to....and how does one make CERTAIN said father won't change his mind, renege his responsibility, half-way through the pregnancy? for these reasons, just for starters, i cannot see your idea being right, nor implemented. in an ideal world, perhaps...but then again, if it were ideal...unwanted pregnancies would cease to exist.[/quote]

before you were using the fact that the father knew what he was getting into having sex, but you seem to dismiss that for the woman. If they have a baby together, than the baby is their responsibility together. Granted, today there is the 3 month window where abortion is an option. That should be a joint decision, as all the others were and should be in the future. The it's my body arguement really doesn't hold water at that point, because it is all the child of the father. She got pregnant, the father didn't force her to get or be pregnant. The only forcing here would be the some right of the mother - for a three month window to kill the father's child and you think that is right?

if there is no interest or resistance of the father, then the choice belongs to the mother.. but the father's right seems to be dismissed here for no reason that I can understand.

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

before you were using the fact that the father knew what he was getting into having sex, but you seem to dismiss that for the woman. If they have a baby together, than the baby is their responsibility together. Granted, today there is the 3 month window where abortion is an option. That should be a joint decision, as all the others were and should be in the future. The it's my body arguement really doesn't hold water at that point, because it is all the child of the father. She got pregnant, the father didn't force her to get or be pregnant. The only forcing here would be the some right of the mother - for a three month window to kill the father's child and you think that is right?

if there is no interest or resistance of the father, then the choice belongs to the mother.. but the father's right seems to be dismissed here for no reason that I can understand.

my point in saying the father 'knew what he was getting into' was in reference to the fact that he should be well aware that IF a pregnancy should occur, it is, legally, the woman's right to make such choices, herself. that was my point. if a man doesn't want a woman he is sleeping with to ever have an abortion, than make absolutely sure who you sleep with is as anti-abortion as you - altho, that could still change if faced with an unwanted pregnancy - and/or be certain to use BC, and/or don't have sex.

i stand by my assessment - there is no way in this world that i would EVER think it is *right* to force a woman to go forth with a pregnancy she does not want. obviously, if she waits until after 12 weeks, she's shit out of luck...but before 12 weeks should be sufficient time for her to make her decision.


you are right of course, a woman too knows what she's getting herself into sexually as well. obviously, the ideal would be no unwanted pregnancies...i think all women and men would agree on that point. all i am saying is the LAW is pretty clear, and who gets what say.....and as it is, imho, tis rightly so, as is. NO woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term.....and you still fail to address any of my questions regarding how one would enforce your scenario in any case. it's all well and good to present it, but how to follow through? i can see many pitfalls in that scenario, fathers bailing out, etc....and then the woman is stuck. besides, bottomline...nope, i will never agree a woman should have to do so.


btw - she is not 'killing a child'.......the potential for a fully formed human being is NOT a fully formed human being. the law states it's a womans right to mae that decision for herself, her body, her life. i agree, always, that in an ideal situation both mother and father would be in agreement and involved....but when push comes to shove, the decision solely resides with the mother...and i personally believe that is how it should be. it's in HER body, it's 9 months of her life, etc. and there are far too many variables to allow the father the right to choose for her....he gave up that right when he had sexual rlations with her...she didn't....b/c the law states clearly who gets to decide.



btw - you fail to address when women ARE forced to have sex against their will in this scenario. and, it is NOT 'all the child of the father'...it is equally theirs, but again, as the blastocyst/embryo/fetus all grows and develops in HER body, you bet....it being her body is an excellent argument imo. when they can pass on the embryo to the father to carry for 9 months, or if they can pass it on to a surrogate that the father gets, etc....then it may well be a whole other discussion. until then, i absolutely 100% agree with the law.

_

Abuskedti wrote:

before you were using the fact that the father knew what he was getting into having sex, but you seem to dismiss that for the woman. If they have a baby together, than the baby is their responsibility together. Granted, today there is the 3 month window where abortion is an option. That should be a joint decision, as all the others were and should be in the future. The it's my body arguement really doesn't hold water at that point, because it is all the child of the father. She got pregnant, the father didn't force her to get or be pregnant. The only forcing here would be the some right of the mother - for a three month window to kill the father's child and you think that is right?

if there is no interest or resistance of the father, then the choice belongs to the mother.. but the father's right seems to be dismissed here for no reason that I can understand.

The problem is that, ultimately, there is no such thing as a true joint decision. This is not possible. Everyone's opinions can be taken into consideration, but when they conflict there can be only one person's decision which holds power. Someone's "right" to make the decision they think is best for their child will ultimately loose out; if not the father's, then the mother's.

(For the record, that window where abortion is an option is actually more like 6-9 months.)

_

decides2dream wrote:

obviously, if she waits until after 12 weeks, she's shit out of luck...but before 12 weeks should be sufficient time for her to make her decision.

See my comment above about the availability of abortion after 12 weeks.

Abuskedti

The problem is that, ultimately, there is no such thing as a true joint decision. This is not possible. Everyone's opinions can be taken into consideration, but when they conflict there can be only one person's decision which holds power. Someone's "right" to make the decision they think is best for their child will ultimately loose out; if not the father's, then the mother's.

(For the record, that window where abortion is an option is actually more like 6-9 months.)[/quote]

I think a 9 month abortion is rahter vulgar, but that is another topic

I don't think any abortion is really in the best interest of the child. though I believe can be the best decision for all involved.

Aborting a child that is loved and wanted by its father goes beyond what I believe reasonable. Dismissing fathers because of the social norms of 50 or more years ago is understandable, but needs to be readdressed. Times have changed.