I guess I am not as pro-choice as you. the only reason I think abortion should be legal is that in this society, it is not fair to a child to bring them into the world with parents that don't want them. for me it is not about the woman at all.. I think it is her responsibility not to get pregnant. Once pregnancy occurs, the child becomes the number one priority. if there is a parent that wants the child, there should not be an abortion. The dangers to the woman are natures doing, not the fault of the father or the child.
as for the dad changing his mind... that is no different than wondering if the woman will change hers. the law requires you to care for your children. If you don't, you may wind up in prison and the child may wind up in the care of the state. With respect for the responsibility of caring for your children, the law does not discriminate between the man and the women. that is joint and absolute - when they fight over custody - it favors the woman to establish the home address.. but still holds both equally responsible for the safety and care of the child.
the law doesn't discriminate...but it also doesn't do too good a job making certain those responsibilities are met, and given that most children with parent who are not together do live with their mothers....that means a lot more women shouldering their responsibility of their children, alone. that's why i think your idea just wouldn't be practical.
in my mind, abortion IS legal, and it's about choice...to be a parent, not be a parent....or give a child to someone desiring a child. so whether there is a parent, or someone else out in the world who may desire said child....it's still a woman's right to simply say, i do not even want this pregnancy for myself. and also remember, there are sooo many babies/children in foster care, for life. not every baby is *desired*......even by their fathers, or adoptive parents. it's a hard truth, but it IS the truth. there are not many who desire a high needs infant/child....born drug-addicted, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc.....and also, plain ole birth defects that can and do occur. so while someone may want to adopt a baby, most have parameters of what kind of baby they want to adopt......same with a father desiring a child......one can easily change their mind. so if you 'force' a woman to have a child she doesn't want, when she would've chosen abortion but goes thru with it b/c the father wants it...and then he changes his mind, she now has to shoulder the responsibilty. he can skip out long before the birth, the woman cannot skip out as she is the carrier. thus why, i think the decision should lie with the mother. that's all.
and yes, i am absolutely pro-choice....and 100% behind it always being the mother's choice. i'd like more access to BC, the morning after-pill, education, etc....but you bet, i believe abortion should always be an option for a woman to make for herself.
I may agree with you. This is such a difficult topic. I can't help but focus on the child and feel the need to protect it. In the end though - in the real world - your view is the most practical.
but give me a minute - because I will always seek a solution that is better, and forget what I just said. This is one of the very few situations were i can't seem to find the right answer for me.
Ok, so you think it is ok that the woman can decide to abort a pregnancy when the fahter wants the child because of the hardship of a 9 month pregnancy the woman would endure for a child she does not want.
what about the other way around
surely if a unwanted pregnancy results in a child - it will cause a lifetime of financial and emotional problems for the man. What say give him the same rights. He can order an abortion.
It doesn't seem like you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying:
1. Although it would be nice for everyone to have equal say, this is not physically possible. There's nothing any of us can do about that, so we must do the best we can in an imperfect situation.
2. There are many more factors to consider than just 9 months of pregnancy and whether or not a child is wanted.
Let me give you an example of just one situation in which things aren't as cut and dried as you make them out to be:
I got pregnant when I was 15. I wasn't using birth control because supposedly my boyfriend was infertile (and I had heard this directly from his doctor). (Plus, my parents weren't the type to be understanding if I said I wanted birth control or condoms, and we lived far enough away from a drugstore that I didn't have an opportunity to buy condoms without having my parents drive me there. Not to mention that I didn't have any money.)
Before I found out I was pregnant, my parents had already forbid me from ever seeing my boyfriend again and he had moved back to AZ (we were in NM) where he didn't have a phone, car, etc. It just so happened that, the day after I found out I was pregnant, he hitch-hiked back to NM to try to sneak around my parents and see me.
So the situation I was in while trying to decide whether or not to have a baby or an abortion (something I had always been adamently against) was this: My family was completely broke since my parents had been unable to find employment since we moved to NM the previous year. My sister and I had gotten special work permits and were working after school and on weekends to support the family. (We just signed our checks over to them, so we didn't get to keep any of the money.) My grandparents sent money for food when they found out I was pregnant, but I ate most of it and my siblings were hungry. I thought I would continue to work during my pregnancy, but I passed out at work. I kept telling my family I was keeping the baby, but my aunts called me every day and said there's no way I could do it, it wouldn't be fair to the baby, I would never finish school, etc.
I thought about adoption, but here's the thing - my boyfriend (who had turned 18) really wanted the baby. I couldn't give it up for adoption because he had rights to it. (These are the rights to which you're referring, I believe.) Well he was an alcoholic, had dropped out of school, and didn't have work until (after moving back to NM to be with me and the "baby") moved from the homeless shelter to a crack house, where he was able to make money as a crack dealer. This is the father who you are saying should have a right to raise my child if I don't think I can do it well enough. Five years later he was brutally murdered at a party because supposedly he owed someone drug money. His new girlfriend was pregnant at the time - with their 3rd child.
Also, even if I had been able to somehow get around his rights and place my child for adoption, because the child would have been half Native American (from my boyfriend), the tribe would have rights to the baby. I would not be the one who got to choose the family to raise it. Most likely, his mother, who also wanted me to have the baby, would have raised it on the reservation. Having lived on the reservation myself, I knew there was no way this was a good environment in which to raise a child.
Due to the insistence of my extended family, I had an abortion. I did it, even though I thought at the time that abortion was wrong, because I felt that it was in the best interest of my child. It's a tough decision for a young mother to make, I can tell you. But it was not a selfish one. And it was not because the child was unwanted or because I didn't respect and consider the rights of the father. It broke my heart to end the life of, not only my child, but his child. Despite his inability to get his shit together, I loved him and thought he was a good man. Did he deserve to have his child aborted against his will? No. But it would have been even less fair to the child to bring it into this situation. You or he or anyone else may disagree with my decision, but I hope you can at least see that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.
i wonder if scb has any stats on how many father's were in agreement with the mother's choices? and/or, how many women had abortions, or babies.....without the father's knowledge at all.
I've often wished I had stats on this but, unfortunately, I don't. I wonder if there's some way to do a study...
i wonder if scb has any stats on how many father's were in agreement with the mother's choices? and/or, how many women had abortions, or babies.....without the father's knowledge at all.
I've often wished I had stats on this but, unfortunately, I don't. I wonder if there's some way to do a study...
i really didn't think there would be, but if anyone would know....you or VG - who isn;t on this board anymore:( - would. i think, honestly, it would be as 'simple' as asking women the reasons for their abortions...simply a follow-up, and completely anonymous, question.
as i said, from my own very unscientfic experience, of those i do know....almost all, the fathers knew and were in agreement. the only one who wasn't interestingly enough....wasn't one who got an abortion, but one who chose to have her child, and the father wanted nothing to do with it - would have preferred she got an abortion, and the mother didn't want him to later try and claim his child, so she left his name off the birth certificate. obviously, also never got any support or involvement from him, which she did willingly chose, but i think he would've made it quite difficult for her in any case.
and scb - thank you for sharing your story. it does so well illustrate the predicament girls can find themselves in. never an easy choice.
i really didn't think there would be, but if anyone would know....you or VG - who isn;t on this board anymore:( - would.
My experience is that a lot of women involve their partners and plenty of women don't. The ones who don't tend to be those who are in less than ideal relationships.
And, yes, I wish VG were still here! I would love to keep in touch with her. If you have any contact info for her, please PM me.
but I hope you can at least see that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.
Its always tough and emotional. I respect your decision. In your situation, the decision was made by those best equipped to make that decision and likely the best one.
just keep in mind, for every situation where the mother is the "better parent" (for lack of a better term). there is a situation where the mother is irresponsible, disinterested or whatever.
In my experience, the people best equipped to make decisions are the ones making them - the others just don't want to.
my wishes are probably unenforcable, or unrealistic. But it is sure seem wrong when a good man is shut out of that decision.
just keep in mind, for every situation where the mother is the "better parent" (for lack of a better term). there is a situation where the mother is irresponsible, disinterested or whatever.
I don't at all think the mother is necessarily the better parent. I just think that it is, in reality, her decision to make and she's got to make the one she feels is best - even if it's different than the one the father would make.
my wishes are probably unenforcable, or unrealistic. But it is sure seem wrong when a good man is shut out of that decision.
I agree with you, but I wouldn't use the word wrong, which I think implies blame. It's just life. A woman can take the man's wishes into consideration, but ultimately only one person can make the decision. That's not the fault of the woman or the man, or you or me.
but I hope you can at least see that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.
Its always tough and emotional. I respect your decision. In your situation, the decision was made by those best equipped to make that decision and likely the best one.
just keep in mind, for every situation where the mother is the "better parent" (for lack of a better term). there is a situation where the mother is irresponsible, disinterested or whatever.
In my experience, the people best equipped to make decisions are the ones making them - the others just don't want to.
my wishes are probably unenforcable, or unrealistic. But it is sure seem wrong when a good man is shut out of that decision.
on all of this, we can agree.
although i will say, i can't imagine many 'good men' being shut out, b/c usually good men are with good women, and they would at least try to jointly come to the best decision for all involved.
i can't imagine many 'good men' being shut out, b/c usually good men are with good women
I hope I won't be judged by some of the women i have been with :0
I would say the reason it's less likely for good men to be shut out of the decision-making process is because, generally speaking, good men are more likely to be good partners. One can't expect this decision to be made as a partnership if there was no real partnership there to begin with. I'm not just talking about one-night-stands.
When I talk to women who are trying to make a pregnancy decision, I encourage them to identify someone who will serve as good support for them during this difficult time (someone who will provide good emotional support, not someone who will necessarily agree with their decision). If their husband or boyfriend or whoever is a good, supportive partner, they are usually the person the woman turns to.
Abortion is not a decision that can be made lightly of for you. I fell pregnant at 22 and had only been with the father for a few months however we had known each other for years. Many assumed we would not have the child but when it came to it I struggled to have an abortion. My parents had me at 17 and I felt that if they had not could I??? I do not regret having the baby nor would I judge another in another circumstance who chose not to. It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin. I am still with the father and we now have 3 children. At the time he was not sure that he wanted to have a baby (nor was I for that matter) he now is happy that he did. I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
“The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.” Mark Twain
Abortion is not a decision that can be made lightly of for you. I fell pregnant at 22 and had only been with the father for a few months however we had known each other for years. Many assumed we would not have the child but when it came to it I struggled to have an abortion. My parents had me at 17 and I felt that if they had not could I??? I do not regret having the baby nor would I judge another in another circumstance who chose not to. It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin. I am still with the father and we now have 3 children. At the time he was not sure that he wanted to have a baby (nor was I for that matter) he now is happy that he did. I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
here it is. the end of the abortion debate.
its up to the mother to decide. period. end of discussion.
Abortion is not a decision that can be made lightly of for you. I fell pregnant at 22 and had only been with the father for a few months however we had known each other for years. Many assumed we would not have the child but when it came to it I struggled to have an abortion. My parents had me at 17 and I felt that if they had not could I??? I do not regret having the baby nor would I judge another in another circumstance who chose not to. It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin. I am still with the father and we now have 3 children. At the time he was not sure that he wanted to have a baby (nor was I for that matter) he now is happy that he did. I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
Thats the thing....there shouldn't be guilt. A fetus is not a human. Its just those that feel the instant the sperm and egg connect thee cells are a full fledged human...and its not. Make the desicion thats right for you....don't regret. If you want to have a child later...under different circumstances...you can.
It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin.... I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin.... I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I wholeheartedly agree.
"men struggle"?!?!...... myself along with all my male freinds understand its the woman thats developing this life, permanently altering her body and being the care giver. The male, 15 minutes of some lovin....thats it. So sure its the woman that ultimately should make the decision.
Now if we could just ignore those that bestow their guilt on those that decide to not develop a human we'd be in good shape. And yea avoiding abortions in the first place with open communication to young humans about human sexuality. Also provde easy access and affordable birth control. Kind of ironic that some that oppose abortion also fight sex education and attempt to suppress sexuality causing those unwanted pregnacies.
Now if we could just ignore those that bestow their guilt on those that decide to not develop a human we'd be in good shape. And yea avoiding abortions in the first place with open communication to young humans about human sexuality. Also provde easy access and affordable birth control. Kind of ironic that some that oppose abortion also fight sex education and attempt to suppress sexuality causing those unwanted pregnacies
I agree with this so much, my daughter is 11 and I hope that she will understand her body enough (hopefully this is still a number of years away :? ) to never be place in this situation as it would be great for her to never have to make this decision. People need to acknowledge that sex is just another part of life and understand that it will happen if we have sex ed or not. Surely it is better for kids to know exactly what is happening to their bodies and how they will fall pregnant (not to mention STD's).
As much as abortion is something that everyone should have the option to, the procedure itself is not so nice nor is the pressure placed on people when making decisions about this. As I said I just hope that my daughter or my sons never have to make these decisions.... idealistic I know but it would be nice.
“The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.” Mark Twain
Me: "So, If President Obama was conceived in Idaho, then his parents decided to go to Kenya 3 months into the pregnancy. Let's also say he was born in Kenya, would he still be an American Citizen?"
Republican: "Of course not! He wasn't alive in America!"
Me: "Oh, so you're saying that the fetus wasn't a person?"
Me: "So, If President Obama was conceived in Idaho, then his parents decided to go to Kenya 3 months into the pregnancy. Let's also say he was born in Kenya, would he still be an American Citizen?"
Republican: "Of course not! He wasn't alive in America!"
Me: "Oh, so you're saying that the fetus wasn't a person?"
Repulican: "Ummmmmmmmm."
It's definitely "umm-worthy" when saying "alive" in America...but doesn't where one is BORN determine their citizenship?
It's like how things work here, no? Conception in another country, person comes here while pregnant (whether legally or not), and their baby born here is then deemed an American citizen.
Abortion is not a decision that can be made lightly of for you. I fell pregnant at 22 and had only been with the father for a few months however we had known each other for years. Many assumed we would not have the child but when it came to it I struggled to have an abortion. My parents had me at 17 and I felt that if they had not could I??? I do not regret having the baby nor would I judge another in another circumstance who chose not to. It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin. I am still with the father and we now have 3 children. At the time he was not sure that he wanted to have a baby (nor was I for that matter) he now is happy that he did. I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
Thats the thing....there shouldn't be guilt. A fetus is not a human. Its just those that feel the instant the sperm and egg connect thee cells are a full fledged human...and its not. Make the desicion thats right for you....don't regret. If you want to have a child later...under different circumstances...you can.
so youre saying a foetus developing inside of a human mother isnt human until when exactly???... at which point it spontaneously changes species to become human??? :fp:
hear my name
take a good look
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hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Abortion is not a decision that can be made lightly of for you. I fell pregnant at 22 and had only been with the father for a few months however we had known each other for years. Many assumed we would not have the child but when it came to it I struggled to have an abortion. My parents had me at 17 and I felt that if they had not could I??? I do not regret having the baby nor would I judge another in another circumstance who chose not to. It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin. I am still with the father and we now have 3 children. At the time he was not sure that he wanted to have a baby (nor was I for that matter) he now is happy that he did. I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
Thats the thing....there shouldn't be guilt. A fetus is not a human. Its just those that feel the instant the sperm and egg connect thee cells are a full fledged human...and its not. Make the desicion thats right for you....don't regret. If you want to have a child later...under different circumstances...you can.
so youre saying a foetus developing inside of a human mother isnt human until when exactly???... at which point it spontaneously changes species to become human??? :fp:
Thats the thing....there shouldn't be guilt. A fetus is not a human. Its just those that feel the instant the sperm and egg connect thee cells are a full fledged human...and its not. Make the desicion thats right for you....don't regret. If you want to have a child later...under different circumstances...you can.
so youre saying a foetus developing inside of a human mother isnt human until when exactly???... at which point it spontaneously changes species to become human??? :fp:
When the fetus can survive on its own.
no that makes it VIABLE.
if a foetus developing inside a human mother isnt human, what is it?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Abortion is not a decision that can be made lightly of for you. I fell pregnant at 22 and had only been with the father for a few months however we had known each other for years. Many assumed we would not have the child but when it came to it I struggled to have an abortion. My parents had me at 17 and I felt that if they had not could I??? I do not regret having the baby nor would I judge another in another circumstance who chose not to. It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin. I am still with the father and we now have 3 children. At the time he was not sure that he wanted to have a baby (nor was I for that matter) he now is happy that he did. I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
Thats the thing....there shouldn't be guilt. A fetus is not a human. Its just those that feel the instant the sperm and egg connect thee cells are a full fledged human...and its not. Make the desicion thats right for you....don't regret. If you want to have a child later...under different circumstances...you can.
so youre saying a foetus developing inside of a human mother isnt human until when exactly???... at which point it spontaneously changes species to become human??? :fp:
So are you saying that your unfertilized eggs are also human? That my sperm are each little humans? Then we’re both mass murderers...well me more than you.
Abortion is not a decision that can be made lightly of for you. I fell pregnant at 22 and had only been with the father for a few months however we had known each other for years. Many assumed we would not have the child but when it came to it I struggled to have an abortion. My parents had me at 17 and I felt that if they had not could I??? I do not regret having the baby nor would I judge another in another circumstance who chose not to. It has to be your own decision and that may be why men struggle as they did not have ownership of the decisoin. I am still with the father and we now have 3 children. At the time he was not sure that he wanted to have a baby (nor was I for that matter) he now is happy that he did. I think you can never know what you will do until you are in the situation.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
Thats the thing....there shouldn't be guilt. A fetus is not a human. Its just those that feel the instant the sperm and egg connect thee cells are a full fledged human...and its not. Make the desicion thats right for you....don't regret. If you want to have a child later...under different circumstances...you can.
so youre saying a foetus developing inside of a human mother isnt human until when exactly???... at which point it spontaneously changes species to become human??? :fp:
There’s no “Magic” that happens the instant a sperm gets inside an egg. It’s just a sperm inside an egg then it starts to divide and then form a human.
so youre saying a foetus developing inside of a human mother isnt human until when exactly???... at which point it spontaneously changes species to become human??? :fp:
There’s no “Magic” that happens the instant a sperm gets inside an egg. It’s just a sperm inside an egg then it starts to divide and then form a human.
yes but its a human egg and human sperm. that is my point.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
So are you saying that your unfertilized eggs are also human? That my sperm are each little humans? Then we’re both mass murderers...well me more than you.
me, not at all considering i cant expel even 1 egg through masturbation. oh and you seem to be confusing human with personhood. one is biological, the other philosophical.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
So are you saying that your unfertilized eggs are also human? That my sperm are each little humans? Then we’re both mass murderers...well me more than you.
me, not at all considering i cant expel even 1 egg through masturbation. oh and you seem to be confusing human with personhood. one is biological, the other philosophical.
Not confusing anything, eggs and sperm get no rights as an egg that’s just been fertilized should have no rights and a young woman that had a rubber break, should not feel guilt in getting a morning after pill. Course you know what I’m saying but avoiding addressing the “Magical Power” that happens the instant and egg is fertilized. Soooo the age old question about abortion is at what point should the developing egg and sperm get rights.
How long does it take for a normal term, fully healthy baby to survive on its own?
IMO, its a matter of opinion and which side of the debate your on. I've read that with the help of neonatal intensive care, a fetus can survive after 26 weeks.
As far as a fetus living with no intensive care help, I don't know... I would guess 30 weeks.
Comments
the law doesn't discriminate...but it also doesn't do too good a job making certain those responsibilities are met, and given that most children with parent who are not together do live with their mothers....that means a lot more women shouldering their responsibility of their children, alone. that's why i think your idea just wouldn't be practical.
in my mind, abortion IS legal, and it's about choice...to be a parent, not be a parent....or give a child to someone desiring a child. so whether there is a parent, or someone else out in the world who may desire said child....it's still a woman's right to simply say, i do not even want this pregnancy for myself. and also remember, there are sooo many babies/children in foster care, for life. not every baby is *desired*......even by their fathers, or adoptive parents. it's a hard truth, but it IS the truth. there are not many who desire a high needs infant/child....born drug-addicted, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc.....and also, plain ole birth defects that can and do occur. so while someone may want to adopt a baby, most have parameters of what kind of baby they want to adopt......same with a father desiring a child......one can easily change their mind. so if you 'force' a woman to have a child she doesn't want, when she would've chosen abortion but goes thru with it b/c the father wants it...and then he changes his mind, she now has to shoulder the responsibilty. he can skip out long before the birth, the woman cannot skip out as she is the carrier. thus why, i think the decision should lie with the mother. that's all.
and yes, i am absolutely pro-choice....and 100% behind it always being the mother's choice. i'd like more access to BC, the morning after-pill, education, etc....but you bet, i believe abortion should always be an option for a woman to make for herself.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
but give me a minute - because I will always seek a solution that is better, and forget what I just said. This is one of the very few situations were i can't seem to find the right answer for me.
It doesn't seem like you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying:
1. Although it would be nice for everyone to have equal say, this is not physically possible. There's nothing any of us can do about that, so we must do the best we can in an imperfect situation.
2. There are many more factors to consider than just 9 months of pregnancy and whether or not a child is wanted.
I got pregnant when I was 15. I wasn't using birth control because supposedly my boyfriend was infertile (and I had heard this directly from his doctor). (Plus, my parents weren't the type to be understanding if I said I wanted birth control or condoms, and we lived far enough away from a drugstore that I didn't have an opportunity to buy condoms without having my parents drive me there. Not to mention that I didn't have any money.)
Before I found out I was pregnant, my parents had already forbid me from ever seeing my boyfriend again and he had moved back to AZ (we were in NM) where he didn't have a phone, car, etc. It just so happened that, the day after I found out I was pregnant, he hitch-hiked back to NM to try to sneak around my parents and see me.
So the situation I was in while trying to decide whether or not to have a baby or an abortion (something I had always been adamently against) was this: My family was completely broke since my parents had been unable to find employment since we moved to NM the previous year. My sister and I had gotten special work permits and were working after school and on weekends to support the family. (We just signed our checks over to them, so we didn't get to keep any of the money.) My grandparents sent money for food when they found out I was pregnant, but I ate most of it and my siblings were hungry. I thought I would continue to work during my pregnancy, but I passed out at work. I kept telling my family I was keeping the baby, but my aunts called me every day and said there's no way I could do it, it wouldn't be fair to the baby, I would never finish school, etc.
I thought about adoption, but here's the thing - my boyfriend (who had turned 18) really wanted the baby. I couldn't give it up for adoption because he had rights to it. (These are the rights to which you're referring, I believe.) Well he was an alcoholic, had dropped out of school, and didn't have work until (after moving back to NM to be with me and the "baby") moved from the homeless shelter to a crack house, where he was able to make money as a crack dealer. This is the father who you are saying should have a right to raise my child if I don't think I can do it well enough. Five years later he was brutally murdered at a party because supposedly he owed someone drug money. His new girlfriend was pregnant at the time - with their 3rd child.
Also, even if I had been able to somehow get around his rights and place my child for adoption, because the child would have been half Native American (from my boyfriend), the tribe would have rights to the baby. I would not be the one who got to choose the family to raise it. Most likely, his mother, who also wanted me to have the baby, would have raised it on the reservation. Having lived on the reservation myself, I knew there was no way this was a good environment in which to raise a child.
Due to the insistence of my extended family, I had an abortion. I did it, even though I thought at the time that abortion was wrong, because I felt that it was in the best interest of my child. It's a tough decision for a young mother to make, I can tell you. But it was not a selfish one. And it was not because the child was unwanted or because I didn't respect and consider the rights of the father. It broke my heart to end the life of, not only my child, but his child. Despite his inability to get his shit together, I loved him and thought he was a good man. Did he deserve to have his child aborted against his will? No. But it would have been even less fair to the child to bring it into this situation. You or he or anyone else may disagree with my decision, but I hope you can at least see that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.
I've often wished I had stats on this but, unfortunately, I don't. I wonder if there's some way to do a study...
i really didn't think there would be, but if anyone would know....you or VG - who isn;t on this board anymore:( - would. i think, honestly, it would be as 'simple' as asking women the reasons for their abortions...simply a follow-up, and completely anonymous, question.
as i said, from my own very unscientfic experience, of those i do know....almost all, the fathers knew and were in agreement. the only one who wasn't interestingly enough....wasn't one who got an abortion, but one who chose to have her child, and the father wanted nothing to do with it - would have preferred she got an abortion, and the mother didn't want him to later try and claim his child, so she left his name off the birth certificate. obviously, also never got any support or involvement from him, which she did willingly chose, but i think he would've made it quite difficult for her in any case.
and scb - thank you for sharing your story.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
My experience is that a lot of women involve their partners and plenty of women don't. The ones who don't tend to be those who are in less than ideal relationships.
And, yes, I wish VG were still here! I would love to keep in touch with her. If you have any contact info for her, please PM me.
Its always tough and emotional. I respect your decision. In your situation, the decision was made by those best equipped to make that decision and likely the best one.
just keep in mind, for every situation where the mother is the "better parent" (for lack of a better term). there is a situation where the mother is irresponsible, disinterested or whatever.
In my experience, the people best equipped to make decisions are the ones making them - the others just don't want to.
my wishes are probably unenforcable, or unrealistic. But it is sure seem wrong when a good man is shut out of that decision.
I don't at all think the mother is necessarily the better parent. I just think that it is, in reality, her decision to make and she's got to make the one she feels is best - even if it's different than the one the father would make.
I agree with you, but I wouldn't use the word wrong, which I think implies blame. It's just life. A woman can take the man's wishes into consideration, but ultimately only one person can make the decision. That's not the fault of the woman or the man, or you or me.
on all of this, we can agree.
although i will say, i can't imagine many 'good men' being shut out, b/c usually good men are with good women, and they would at least try to jointly come to the best decision for all involved.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I hope I won't be judged by some of the women i have been with :0
I would say the reason it's less likely for good men to be shut out of the decision-making process is because, generally speaking, good men are more likely to be good partners. One can't expect this decision to be made as a partnership if there was no real partnership there to begin with. I'm not just talking about one-night-stands.
When I talk to women who are trying to make a pregnancy decision, I encourage them to identify someone who will serve as good support for them during this difficult time (someone who will provide good emotional support, not someone who will necessarily agree with their decision). If their husband or boyfriend or whoever is a good, supportive partner, they are usually the person the woman turns to.
I also have a few friends who have had abortion and they always think about what might have been but they have not changed their stance on abortions. It is just such an emotionally charged subject.
its up to the mother to decide. period. end of discussion.
Thats the thing....there shouldn't be guilt. A fetus is not a human. Its just those that feel the instant the sperm and egg connect thee cells are a full fledged human...and its not. Make the desicion thats right for you....don't regret. If you want to have a child later...under different circumstances...you can.
I wholeheartedly agree.
"men struggle"?!?!...... myself along with all my male freinds understand its the woman thats developing this life, permanently altering her body and being the care giver. The male, 15 minutes of some lovin....thats it. So sure its the woman that ultimately should make the decision.
Now if we could just ignore those that bestow their guilt on those that decide to not develop a human we'd be in good shape. And yea avoiding abortions in the first place with open communication to young humans about human sexuality. Also provde easy access and affordable birth control. Kind of ironic that some that oppose abortion also fight sex education and attempt to suppress sexuality causing those unwanted pregnacies.
As much as abortion is something that everyone should have the option to, the procedure itself is not so nice nor is the pressure placed on people when making decisions about this. As I said I just hope that my daughter or my sons never have to make these decisions.... idealistic I know but it would be nice.
Republican: "Of course not! He wasn't alive in America!"
Me: "Oh, so you're saying that the fetus wasn't a person?"
Repulican: "Ummmmmmmmm."
It's like how things work here, no? Conception in another country, person comes here while pregnant (whether legally or not), and their baby born here is then deemed an American citizen.
so youre saying a foetus developing inside of a human mother isnt human until when exactly???... at which point it spontaneously changes species to become human??? :fp:
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
When the fetus can survive on its own.
no that makes it VIABLE.
if a foetus developing inside a human mother isnt human, what is it?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
So are you saying that your unfertilized eggs are also human? That my sperm are each little humans? Then we’re both mass murderers...well me more than you.
yes but its a human egg and human sperm. that is my point.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
me, not at all considering i cant expel even 1 egg through masturbation. oh and you seem to be confusing human with personhood. one is biological, the other philosophical.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
As far as a fetus living with no intensive care help, I don't know... I would guess 30 weeks.